47000 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth jonoabb Hi Phil I'd like to endorse what Sarah says here about supporting one's parents. I think the suttas clearly indicate that the greatest form of support is support in the development of kusala, rather than physical support, and this accords with what one reads elsewhere in the suttas also. In the years preceding my mother's death I built up quite a close relationship with her by regular phone chats, and I think I was able to be helpful in ways that my 2 brothers living in the same city could not (at my mother's funeral quite a few of her friends came up to me a said how much my mother had appreciated my support). So although my visits home were rare, I have no regrets on that account. Very sorry to hear about your mother. I also sympathise with your father, who being the healthier spouse will have to bear the brunt of things. Jon sarah abbott wrote: >Whilst I appreciated Howard's and Colette's urging you to spend time with >your mother, I think there are different ways of doing this and of course, >when one lives and works overseas, one can't always drop all one's >commitments to be with one's parents physically. > >During Jonothan's mother's decline before she died, it was impossible for >him to get to Australia to be with her for long or often. However, he kept >in close contact by telephone, having long calls, listening and giving >helpful advice which family members nearby her were unable to do to the >same extent. > >... > >The other thing that struck me when I used to talked to his mother was how >she genuinely really wished her children to be happy in conventional >worldly ways. So knowing you and Naomi are happily and well-settled in >your Japanese life will bring your mother ease of mind as well, I'm sure. >I can also imagine that the Canadian health system provides very good >guidance and assistance for this illness these days. Let us know how it >goes. I expect you'll be there sometime in the summer anyway. > > 47001 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness & A question to Htoo jwromeijn Hallo Larry, Htoo and all Thanks for you information you gave me. The real topic of course is not the information as such but: what to do with it. Although I think never to get in the immaterial jhanas, because I do insight- meditation as is teached me, I think it's good and possible to comtemplate about 'nothingness'. And about the resemblance and the difference between this 'nothingness' and the 'emptiness' in Mahayana. One final remark to check if I do understand it wel: 'Akincannayatana' is a citta, so is a dhamma, which only can be experienced after a long precess of meditation. 'Nattibhava' or 'natthibhava-pannatti' is a concept, so not a dhamma itself, it's a object of absorption; and - my intention - it can be a object of contemplation, that is: without being in deep absorption. Metta Joop 47002 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >One nice thing about you that always entertains me is that regardless of >how many times I have tried to explain something to you, if you already >have a fixed belief in something else (normally, the opposite), then you >will 'manage' to turn it around back to what you believe in again (and >again, and again ...). This may be interpreted by other people as >stubbornness, or you may think of it as a characteristic of a strong and >successful leader! Take President Bush as an example. :-) > > I've been called some uncomplimentary things in the past, but being compared to President Bush is taking it to a new high (or low) ;-)). If there's one thing I can say about myself it is that I have no wish to be a leader of any kind. >Jon: But I was simply agreeing with you that when there is sati and >sampajanna there is the development of both samatha and insight, >and, as I would add, without the need for a separate 'samatha practice'. > >Tep: We are in agreement here (but not because of your >strong 'leadership' :-)) that samatha and vipassana can be yoked >together. A separate samatha practice is seen, for example, in the >Kayagatasati Sutta. But I am not saying that only samatha practice is >necessary and sufficient. > > Without meaning to turn your words around in any sense ;-)), my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not. But the central message remained the same, namely, insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhammas. >Jon: As I understand it, all mindfulness that is accompanied by panna >of the level of insight, however weak that insight may be, is also >accompanied by samma-samadhi, ... ... > >Tep: I have to confess that there have been several posts on 'samma- >samadhi' here, but I am still confused as to what the DSGers >understand as samma samadhi. Can you give me a quick description? >Samadhi is concentration. But what kind of concentration is samma- >samadhi? Can anyone get samma-samadhi from reflecting over the >five aggregates(or any dhamma of your choice) while in the bath room, >walking on a road, driving a car, or doing any daily activity? Can >samma-samadhi arise without the support of the other seven Path >factors? > > Yes, samadhi is concentration, but there are many kinds of concentration. What is conventionally understood as concentration, namely, being focussed on a single goal, includes both kusala and akusala states. There is nothing inherently kusala about concentration; it simply describes the singleness of object or purpose. Everyone who is good at something -- in business, sport, scientific research, etc. -- needs a lot of it. Similarly, concentrating on a single object, such as a candle light, mantra, or the like, requires concentration but does not require kusala of any degree. When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular. In the ultimate sense, samadhi is the mental factor (cetasika) of that name, just like insight is panna cetasika. >Tep: Good answer! So you say that any one of the four foundations of >mindfulness is equally good as the object of sati for any body posture >in the present moment. If this simple answer is correct, then why did the >Buddha talk in details about the various activities for training sati- >sampajanna through the 4 foundations [DN 22]? Why didn't he "save >his breaths" by simply saying as follows -- Monks, contemplate on any >of the four foundations of mindfulness in any body posture, any time of >the day, wherever you go, and you will gain samma-sati? > > Another good observation! Well I think he did in effect say to contemplate on any of the four foundations of mindfulness in any body posture, any time of the day, wherever you go, whatever you are doing, and he also went into greater detail too, giving particular emphasis to the rupas that we take for the body, for obvious reasons. Similarly, in teaching what 'dhammas' are -- they are presented (classified) in different ways, as khandhas, as ayatanas, as elements, as in the fourfold classification of the arousings of mindfulness, etc. I think you would agree that the contemplations on vedana, citta and dhammas as given in the other 3 sections of the Satipatthana Sutta are posture/activity independent. Yet obviously they can occur only at a time of either walking, standing, sitting or lying (as in the section on modes of deportment). >It seems that our dialogue will go on and on, and on ...until you drop >your strong leadership and look at dhamma for the sake of dhamma. > > I am grateful for the trouble you take to continue the discussion. Jon 47003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? Jon Dan D. wrote: >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare >cases, contented disinterest.) > >Metta, > >Dan > >Jon: "..the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that >follower of that doctrine could become arahants..." > > 47004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jonoabb Hi Colette Welcome to the group from me. In a post earlier this week you included the following that I think is a quote from somewhere: > "In the Suttas we often come across such phrases as 'ko hetu, ko > >paccayo' - 'what cause, what reason'. In the Abhidhamma both hetu and >paccaya are differentiated and are used in specific senses. The term >hetu is applied to the six roots explained above. Paccaya is an aiding >condition (upakaraka dhamma). Like the root of a tree is hetu. Paccaya >is like water, manure, etc." > > I'm interested in the term 'upakaraka dhamma', since the subject of whether conditions are or are not 'dhammas' has come up a few times. Does the source text have anything more to say about it? Thanks. Jon 47005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >I am not aware of drawing any distinction between these various >sections. Please paraphrase the distinction I drew, as you see it, or >quote to me where I drew that distinction. > > I've taken you at your word and done a quick 'Up Thread' search (see below). I understood you to be saying that while the section of the Satipatthana Sutta on contemplation of the body is suitable for lay-folk, because it provides specific activities to be followed, the other 3 sections (on feeling, consciousness and dhammas) do not provide specific activities to be followed and are not suitable for lay-folk. This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? Jon You said: James: The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. To which I replied: I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? To which you then replied: James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand aspirations! ;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46190 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46278 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46292 47006 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James and Tep) - In a message dated 6/26/05 9:17:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? =========================== The section on feelings is as follows: ------------------------------------- II. The Contemplation of Feeling And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings? Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I experience a pleasant feeling"; when experiencing a painful feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling," he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling." When experiencing a pleasant worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant worldly feeling"; when experiencing a pleasant spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a pleasant spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a painful spiritual feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful worldly feeling"; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling, he knows, "I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful spiritual feeling." Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.12 Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Isn't it straightforwardly implied here that the practice is paying attention, to see exactly what is happening? Moreover, isn't the prior practice on the body "to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness" preparatory practice? ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47007 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >I am not aware of drawing any distinction between these various > >sections. Please paraphrase the distinction I drew, as you see it, or > >quote to me where I drew that distinction. > > > > > > I've taken you at your word and done a quick 'Up Thread' search (see below). Now I understand a bit more why you came to the conclusion you did; however, I think you have read more into the dialogue than was there. I will explain further below. > > I understood you to be saying that while the section of the Satipatthana > Sutta on contemplation of the body is suitable for lay-folk, because it > provides specific activities to be followed, the other 3 sections (on > feeling, consciousness and dhammas) do not provide specific activities > to be followed and are not suitable for lay-folk. First, your choice of the word 'suitable' is a hot button word, with negative connotations, and it isn't a word I would choose. All...let me repeat: All...of the Satipatthana Sutta is more difficult for lay folk to follow and, to my knowledge, the Buddha didn't teach it to lay folk. However, lay folk can benefit from the teaching by understanding the process and emulating it to the small degree possible in the worldly life. Additionally, learning the process can condition greater success in future lives if one becomes a monastic. Second, I don't believe the 'specific activities' listed in one section is more appropriate for lay folk than the general descriptions listed in the other sections. Those activities, even though they are specific and identifiable, are not easy to do while living the life of a householder. This is what I believe Jon and I think common sense and the suttas back me up on this point. I know that this sounds discouraging, because householders want to have peace and happiness in their lives just as much as monks/nuns; but this peace and happiness are dependent on one very important factor: renunciation. Householders, if they wish to achieve as much as monastics, must be willing to renounce a great many things and constantly guard the sense doors. Jon, neither of us are doing this to a significant amount so we can't expect great results. Those are the cold, hard facts. However, it seems to me that you, Jon, are advocating the possibility of living a hedonistic and sensual lifestyle and still truly follow the teachings of the Buddha. As I said before, that is just Mara influencing your thinking- making it cloudy and corrupted. > > This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being > conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly > no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and > dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? > > Jon > > You said: > James: The Satipatthana Sutta > lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 > parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they > don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that > the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > > To which I replied: > I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the > body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, > there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, > consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? > > To which you then replied: > James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a > bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I > aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand > aspirations! ;-) Jon, no where in this exchange do I say that the four sections are different or that one section is meant for lay folk while the other three are not. I just directly answered your second question, not knowing that you were tring to lead somewhere (silly me!). The problem here is that you ask too many leading questions (as I have pointed out before). You want me to answer questions in a way which supports your point of view so you ask questions leading in that direction. This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a Buddhist discussion group. Metta, James 47008 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Hi Jon and Dan, Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 26 June, 2005 14:18 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] Hi Dan Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? Jon Dan D. wrote: >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare >cases, contented disinterest.) <....> 47009 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:42am Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness & A question to Htoo lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Hallo Larry, Htoo and all > > Thanks for you information you gave me. The real topic of course is > not the information as such but: what to do with it. Although I think > never to get in the immaterial jhanas, because I do insight- > meditation as is taught me, I think it's good and possible to > contemplate about 'nothingness'. And about the resemblance and the > difference between this 'nothingness' and the 'emptiness' in Mahayana. > One final remark to check if I do understand it well: > 'Akincannayatana' is a citta, so is a dhamma, which only can be > experienced after > a long precess of meditation. > 'Nattibhava' or 'natthibhava-pannatti' is a concept, so not a dhamma > itself, it's a object of absorption; and - my intention - it can be a > object of contemplation, that is: without being in deep absorption. > > Metta > > Joop Hi Joop, I think the difference is akincannaayatana is the experience of absense and nattibhava-pannatti is thoughts about absense. Both can be experienced in an ordinary way outside of jhana as in the example of a meeting hall full of an assembly of monks and then the experience of the same hall when they are gone. As 'absence' this is the same as emptiness, the difference being what is absent. In the Base of Nothingness (akincannaayatana) the consciousness of the previous jhana(Base of Boundless Consciousness) is absent. In the emptiness of the Heart Sutra "rupa is emptiness" means anything solid or graspable is absent from rupa. Notice the mantra "gate, gate, paragate,parasamgate, bodhi, svaha" (gone, gone, completely gone, completely absolutely gone, awake, sobeit). This shouldn't be construed as meaning that rupa becomes empty. Emptiness is its nature. We could say this mantra is nattibhava-pannatti with the difference that it leads to insight rather than absorption. As insight, the emptiness of the assembly hall is the ungraspable nature of the assembly hall rather than its lack of people. Larry 47010 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:55am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi, James {Jon and Sarah} - James : I know that this sounds discouraging, because householders want to have peace and happiness in their lives just as much as monks/nuns; but this peace and happiness are dependent on one very important factor: renunciation.Householders, if they wish to achieve as much as monastics, must be willing to renounce a great many things and constantly guard the sense doors. Jon, neither of us are doing this to a significant amount so we can't expect great results. Tep: These are very astute observations, James. You hit many nails right on their heads. Several questions relating to "present-moment" satipatthana, holy-life/seclusion, samatha-vipassana bhavana and indriya-samvara sila can be answered by your above remarks. James (talking to Jon): The problem here is that you ask too many leading questions (as I have pointed out before). You want me to answer questions in a way which supports your point of view so you ask questions leading in that direction. This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a Buddhist discussion group. Tep: Asking leading questions is a trick of political candidates who aim at leading 'the people' to go to the polls to vote for them. But Jon is not interested in being a leader, as he tells me in another post today. But if he changed his mind to become a politician one day, I'd like to suggest that he adopted a cute nickname to be used during his political campaign: Jon "Bush" Abbott. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: (snipped) This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to > defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current > incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a > Buddhist discussion group. > > Metta, > James 47011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness, conceit. nilovg Hi Larry and Colette, you made me laugh, Larry. I was very busy with research on conceit today (in anticipation on your post) and even now I have conceit about this!!! Also when there is no competition or comparing there can be conceit. We find ourselves so valuable, a real treasure. Conceit can take any object, even jhana. But, as we know, the lokuttara dhammas are not objects of clinging and thus also they are not objects of clinging with conceit. Nina. op 26-06-2005 07:45 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Jhana could be construed as a competition, an attempt to > become the most tranquil because the jhana practitioner never seems to > be satisfied. In order for there to be competition there has to be > conceit, a comparing oneself to others. Conceit isn't listed as one of > the hindrances to jhana so I would suppose it could be present. Maybe > Nina could say something about this. 47012 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:27am Subject: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - Congratulations for your so-far most direct answers(no beating around the bush) to my questions. I think we can say that our discussion has come to a conclusion. Jon's Points that Tep has Agreed with ------------------------------------------------------- -- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". -- "But the central message remained the same, namely, insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhammas". --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". -- "... in teaching what 'dhammas' are -- they are presented (classified) in different ways, as khandhas, as ayatanas, as elements, as in the fourfold classification of the arousings of mindfulness, etc." -- "I think you would agree that the contemplations on vedana, citta and dhammas as given in the other 3 sections of the Satipatthana Sutta are posture/activity independent. Yet obviously they can occur only at a time of either walking, standing, sitting or lying (as in the section on modes of deportment)." Tep's Final remark: Is our successful conclusion this time due to the fact that you've dropped the 'leadership attitude', or is it because you have no 'leading points' or branches in your answers, or because I've become less argumentative? Warm regards, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > > > I am grateful for the trouble you take to continue the discussion. > > Jon 47013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] nilovg Hi Howard, I am doing a little research in view of Tep's thread. I shall quote and we can see that it is not merely preparatory practice. It points to the aim. There is more than seeing or paying attention. Sati sampajañña is necessary. Mindfulness and understanding of the reality that appears. That is the way to see it as no being, no person, no self. op 26-06-2005 16:07 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Isn't it straightforwardly implied here that the practice is paying > attention, to see exactly what is happening? Moreover, isn't the prior > practice on > the body "to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness" > preparatory practice? ----- Text: Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'" Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati paccupatthita hoti]. Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose. This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose. What is the purpose for which it is established? Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance." That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning. Subcommentary: ------ Nina: read for remembrance: sati. Patissati-mattaya (matta is: merely). Nina. 47014 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Vism.XIV,168 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 168. (24) With the third [unprofitable consciousness] (24) there should be understood to be associated those given for the first (22), excepting wrong view (xli). But here the difference is that there is inconstant [occurrence] of (xliv) pride (conceit). That has the characteristic of hautiness. Its function is arrogance. It is manifested as vaingloriousness. Its proximate cause is greed dissociated from views. It should be regarded as like madness. (25) With the fourth (25) should be understood to be associated those given for the second (23), excepting wrong view (xli). And here pride (xiv) is among the inconstant too. 47015 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Re: Base Consisting of Nothingness, conceit. philofillet Hi Larry, Colette, Nina and all I'm pretty sure I've read a sutta that teaches a kind of beneficial aspect of comparing oneself's jhana (or some other attainment?) to others. I think it was in AN. Does anyone know this sutta? I have only a vague memory of it. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Colette, > you made me laugh, Larry. I was very busy with research on conceit today (in > anticipation on your post) and even now I have conceit about this!!! > Also when there is no competition or comparing there can be conceit. We find > ourselves so valuable, a real treasure. Conceit can take any object, even > jhana. But, as we know, the lokuttara dhammas are not objects of clinging > and thus also they are not objects of clinging with conceit. > Nina. > > op 26-06-2005 07:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Jhana could be construed as a competition, an attempt to > > become the most tranquil because the jhana practitioner never seems to > > be satisfied. In order for there to be competition there has to be > > conceit, a comparing oneself to others. Conceit isn't listed as one of > > the hindrances to jhana so I would suppose it could be present. Maybe > > Nina could say something about this. 47016 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - There was a subtle difference between my understanding of the "body", Note 2, and yours, based on your text quote: > Tep's Notes: > > 1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, > equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath > more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle > than before}, 3x3 = 9. > 2) The object of breathing mindfulness is the "body" (in-breaths, out- > breaths, and the sign) in the sense that once mindfulness is > established, it stays at the object. ------ N: Note to the text: ------- Tep: So it seems that you are subtly saying that the 'sign' is not a part of the 'body', while I am saying that it is. Well, let me show another text information that says the 'sign' is also called body. Looking further to the second sentence, counting from the one you are quoting above, you'll see : 'The contemplation is knowledge': the meaning is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge.[endquote] The term "sign body" implies that sign, in-breaths, and out-breaths are the three things that together are "the body" where mindfulness is to be established. Also, I recall from #169 the following: "Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing not these three ideas (dhamma) Does not obtain development." Therefore, I wrote the 2nd note above accordingly. Please let me know if I jumped to a wrong conclusion ! Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, (snipped) > ------- > Tep: 3) In the Thai version "The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness . The contemplation is knowledge." is the same as "Sati becomes anupassana-nana." > ------- > Note to text (from Co): The contemplation is knowledge: the meanings is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. .. > Nina. 47017 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/26/05 2:46:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I am doing a little research in view of Tep's thread. I shall quote and we can see that it is not merely preparatory practice. It points to the aim. There is more than seeing or paying attention. Sati sampajañña is necessary. Mindfulness and understanding of the reality that appears. That is the way to see it as no being, no person, no self. ========================== Thank you very much for this, Nina. It happens that I didn't make myself clear on this point. I didn't mean to imply that kayanupassana practice is merely preparatory - far from it. In fact, there are suttas that suggest that such practice can take one "all the way"! I was writing in the context of the conversation between Jon, James, and Tep. My point was that even with regard to feelings etc activities *are* given for mindfulness of them, these being attention and also the cultivation carried out during mindfulness of the body. In the sense that prior cultivation of mindfulness of the body conditions mindfulness of feelings it is preparatory. I meant it only in that sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47018 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 dacostacharles Hi all, Just jumping in with out much clue as to what was already said. Clinging is not letting go. It does not matter, it could be a belief, an apple, a feeling, ... This does however imply that you are already holding on to what ever it is. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, 27 May, 2005 11:00 Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 Hi Phil and Larry, the combination of lobha with ditthi is very dangerous. For instance, if one does not see kamma and vipaaka, lobha can lead to many evil deeds. See also the Vis. and tiika today. Nina. op 27-05-2005 03:00 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > In any case, I would say that you are going too far by saying that > clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insiduous, so > prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting > away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I > misunderstand what "views" means. <....> 47019 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:59pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (431) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Kaama akusala kamma and their results have been explained in the previous post. 2. kaama kusala kamma There are 8 kaama kusala kamma and they are cetana that have arisen when 8 mahaakusala cittas arose in the past. What are the results of these 8 kaama kusala kamma. There are 2 folds. One is the effect at initiation of a life or the effect at patisandhi or rebirth. a) kaama kusala kamma give rise to 9 kaama-patisandhi cittas. 1. kaama-sugati ahetuka patisandi citta (kusalavipaka santirana citta) 2. kaama-sugati sahetuka patisandhi citta( 8 mahaavipaaka cittas) The first citta is patisandhi citta of jaccandii or human with mental retardation, congenital blind or deaf etc and it is also patisandhi citta of some lower devas. 8 mahaavipaaka cittas can give rise to birth at human realms and 6 deva realms. b) kaama kusala kamma give rise to their effect during the course of life as 1. 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas 1. cakkhu vinnaana citta (eye-consciousness) 2. sota vinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) 3. ghaana vinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) 4. jivhaa vinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) 5. kaaya vinnaana citta (body-consciousness) 6. receiving consciousness 7. joyful investigating consciousness 8. indifferent investigating consciousness All these are the results of kusala kamma and they are vipaakas. 2. 8 sahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas These 8 cittas are 8 mahaavipaaka cittas. They can serve as bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness, cuti citta or life- ending consciousness, and can also serve as tadaarammana cittas or retaining consciousness after impulsive consciousness or javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47020 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:06pm Subject: A short message from Htoo htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, I will be away for a month. Last month, I said I would be away for 2 months. For finishing touches on Patthana Dhamma I came back in the middle of my busy schedules. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47021 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - 199. / Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - My slow-but-sure-and-gladdened typing continues to paragraphs #197- 199 for today. 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate that body[the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it as impermanent (aniccanupassana), not as permanent; as painful(dukkhanupassana), not as pleasant; as not self(anattanupassana), not as self; he becomes dispassionate(nibbidaanupassana), does not delight; he causes greed to fade away(viraaganupassana), does not inflame it; he causes cessation(nirodhanupassana), not arising; he relinquishes (patinissagganupassana), does not grasp. When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of permanence(niccasannaa), when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of pleasure (sukhasannaa); when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self(attaasannaa), when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight(nandi), when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising (uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons grasping(aadaana). Thus he contemplates the body. ['Contemplation of the body as a body' the body being of many sorts, it is contemplationof that body. Or else it is contemplation of a (the) body, not of any other idea (dhamma), in the body that is meant; not the contemplation of permanence, pleasure, self, and beauty in a body that is impermanent, painful, not self, and ugly(foul), but contemplation of that body as impermanent, painful, not self, and ugly. Or else it is contemplation of simply that mere body itself rather than contemplation in it of any body assumed to be 'I' or 'mine' or 'woman' or 'man', is what is meant' (PsA 352 S) See also MA i 241f.] 198. 'Development': there are four kinds of development(bhaavaana): development in the sense of non-excess(anativattana) of ideas (dhamma) produced therein, development in the sense of single function(eka rasa) of the faculties(indriya), development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate energy(tadupaga viriya), and development in the sense of repetition(aasevana). [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 199. When he undestands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths, his feelings (vedana) are recognized as they arise(), recognized as they appear (are established), recognize as they subside(); his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear(are established), recognize as they subside; his applied-thoughts(vitakka) are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear(are established), recognize as they subside; Tep's questions: ----------------------- In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising(uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons grasping(aadaana). When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > Let's have a preview of the remaining presentation of the Breathing > Treatise (29 more pages to go). > > Each of the 16 grounds in the Anapanasati is analysed with respect to > the foundation of mindfulness, how to contemplate (anupassati) the > breaths, the arising of vedana, sanna, etc., and how the faculties > (indriya) are combined. > > The first ground of Tetrad #1 starts in paragraph #194 and the 16th > ground (of Tetrad #4) ends in paragraph #597. After that we'll see > Section v through Section x, covering paragraphs # 598 to the last > paragraph # 612 -- the end of the Breathing Treatise. > > Following the suggestions of Nina, Sarah and Larry, I am going to > present shorter messages and hence it will take longer to finish the > series. > > Now let me back up to the beginning of the first ground (i) of Tetrad # 1 > in paragraph 194: > 47022 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi all, There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say they do not entertain thoughts of beings. Some of the higher powers available to those with mastery of the mind include: seeing the rebirths and planes of existence of "others" reading the thoughts of "others" I'm wandering what it could mean to someone who doesn't entertain the thought of beings that proficiency in the nanas and jhanas leads to knowlede of mental states and abodes of "others"? Kind Regards Herman 47023 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:59pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jon, > The problem here is that you ask too many leading questions (as I have > pointed out before). You want me to answer questions in a way which > supports your point of view so you ask questions leading in that > direction. This type of exchange is good for attorneys trying to > defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the current > incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a > Buddhist discussion group. Hi James and Tep Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. Regarding "leading questions", these are of 2 types in a court of law, either (a) questions that suggest the desired answer; or (b) questions that assume the existence of disputed facts. Whilst Jon stands accused of asking questions that suggest an answer, I feel his questions admirably uncover the "disputed facts" that underlie the propositions being put forward. In that sense, they are anything but leading questions. They are very helpful in getting people to spell out clearly what is being proposed. We need more of that and not less! Best wishes Andrew T 47024 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > > ------------------------------ > KH: > > It hints at a them-and-us attitude that would suggest farmers > and pest exterminators > > > (for example) can't be as good as other people. > .... > > S: > Isn't this like the meat-eating and leather belts arguments? > -------------------------------- > > Is it the same thing? My train of thought (when it was not being > sidetracked) was basically that, in conventional matters, we don't > know what is the best thing to do. The owner of an old, sick cat > doesn't know how much time and money he should spend to keep it > alive. I don't think an understanding of kusala and akusala dhammas > will solve that problem for him. A slaughterman in an abattoir > doesn't know whether to put down his knife and walk off the job. Or > maybe that's different. I don't even know that! :-) > > If the slaughterman suddenly quits his job (with the intention of > keeping the first precept) isn't he thinking, "mine, me, my self?" Hi everyone At the risk of side-tracking poor old Ken H again (-:, it seems to me that thinking in the above terms is a proliferated "standing still" that conditions sinking and not crossing the stream. Conditions will govern what happens, including the volitional aspects. Why not just leave it at that? BTW Millie the cat is behind me now, still not walking but lively enough to give me a good scratch as I gave her her pre-breakfast medicine. I'm not mentally agonising about what to do with her. We just carry on moment by moment ... Best wishes Andrew T 47025 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: Abhinnas & Others philofillet Hi Herman, and all > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say > they do not entertain thoughts of beings. Ph: Sorry to interrupt the line of your question, but a couple of things should be pointed out...again. :) I don't think anyone here would claim to have that kind of insight Not only do we entertain the thought of beings, we love beings, care for them, become irritated by them, worry about them, lust after them, feel aversion to them. Of course. There may or may not be arahants in this world, but they sure aren't kicking around the internet! As I said the other day, we most definitely see things and live in the world with very conventional minds, and nobody is claiming otherwise. At the same time, we can read about and discuss the Buddha's incomparable wisdom, which allowed him to see a more profound truth. So we refer to the teeaching, and discuss it. We don't claim to have attained a direct experience of it. So of course we are bound to beings. We are worldlings. More importantly, you should realize that it is very basic Dhamma, mainstream Dhamma to understand at least intellectually that the five aggregates do not form a being in ultimate terms. See Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial note to SN 22:22: "The puggalavada or personalist schools of Buddhism appealed to this passage as proof for the existence of the person (puggala) as a real entity..this tenet was flatly rejected by the other Buddhist schools, who saw in it a camouflaged verson of the atman, the self of the non-Buddhist systems. The *mainstream* Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pannati) derivative upon (upadaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right." Ok, carry on! ;) Metta, Phil 47026 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood philofillet Hi all I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. I thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in the modern, noisy, dirty world. "Suppose a man in need of fire, looking for fire, wandering in search of fire, would take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood. If he were to take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results. "In the same way, any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results." Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. Metta, Phil 47027 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A short message from Htoo upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 6/26/05 7:07:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear Dhamma Friends, I will be away for a month. Last month, I said I would be away for 2 months. For finishing touches on Patthana Dhamma I came back in the middle of my busy schedules. With Metta, Htoo Naing ============================ Whatever you will be doing, be well and be happy. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47028 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/26/05 7:45:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi all, There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say they do not entertain thoughts of beings. Some of the higher powers available to those with mastery of the mind include: seeing the rebirths and planes of existence of "others" reading the thoughts of "others" I'm wandering what it could mean to someone who doesn't entertain the thought of beings that proficiency in the nanas and jhanas leads to knowlede of mental states and abodes of "others"? Kind Regards Herman ============================= To speak of beings, their rebirths, and their thoughts is to speak truthfully but figuratively. It would take aeons to unpack that figurative speech and replace it with literal speech. Putting it another way, think about the nature and "existence" of rainbows. The matter is analogous I think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47029 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 6/26/05 8:38:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: may or may not be arahants in this world, but they sure aren't kicking around the internet! ========================== LOL! One of the most insightful statements I've read in a long time!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47030 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your comments. I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying. But the question remains, if not for people on dsg, then for people described in the sutta, such as the Buddha and many others possesed of the abhinnas. You seem to be saying that BB is in fact saying that the Buddha and others who perfected the nanas and jhanas, and so developed the ability to know things about "others", developed a rare conceptual skill ? I am glad you know what I should realise :-) Perhaps you can help me understand the obvious. I wander what the citta was when the Buddha knew something about the mind of an "other"? What does the Abhidhamma say about it? Sorry to be so tiresome :-) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Herman, and all > > > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > > > > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who > say > > they do not entertain thoughts of beings. > > > Ph: Sorry to interrupt the line of your question, but a couple of > things should be pointed out...again. :) > > I don't think anyone here would claim to have that kind of > insight > Not only do we entertain the thought of beings, we love beings, care > for them, become irritated by them, worry about them, lust after > them, > feel aversion to them. Of course. There may or may not be arahants > in > this world, but they sure aren't kicking around the internet! As I > said > the other day, we most definitely see things and live in the world > with > very conventional minds, and nobody is claiming otherwise. At the > same > time, we can read about and discuss the Buddha's incomparable > wisdom, > which allowed him to see a more profound truth. So we refer to the > teeaching, and discuss it. We don't claim to have attained a direct > experience of it. So of course we are bound to beings. We are > worldlings. > > More importantly, you should realize that it is very basic Dhamma, > mainstream Dhamma to understand at least intellectually that the > five aggregates do not form > a being in ultimate terms. See Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial note to > SN > 22:22: "The puggalavada or personalist schools of Buddhism appealed > to > this passage as proof for the existence of the person (puggala) as a > real entity..this tenet was flatly rejected by the other Buddhist > schools, who saw in it a camouflaged verson of the atman, the self > of > the non-Buddhist systems. The *mainstream* Buddhist schools held > that > the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pannati) > derivative upon (upadaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial > reality in its own right." > > Ok, carry on! ;) > > Metta, > Phil 47031 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:03pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood rjkjp1 Dear Phil, I am right that you are saying that one who is not a monk cannot develop satipatthana and that they posses wrong view because of being bombarded by sense objects? BTW Chanda is not lobha. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: . I > thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re > satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for > people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in > the modern, noisy, dirty world. > > " If he were to take a fire stick and rub it into a > wet, sappy piece of wood even when having made a wish [for > results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and > having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no > wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? > Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results. > > "In the same way, any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong > view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, > wrong effort, 47032 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:05pm Subject: suhada-mitta foamflowers Dear Colette, Suhada-mitta means 'friend of the heart,' I do remember who you are! With Metta, Lisa 47033 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:14pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood philofillet Hi Rob > Dear Phil, > I am right that you are saying that one who is not a monk cannot > develop satipatthana and that they posses wrong view because of > being bombarded by sense objects? I was talking about the natural tendency for beginners to want to have satipatthana as soon as they hear about it. As you know, a lot of patience is required. I was really impressed when I met you and you said that it made no difference to you whether you were in a rural district or in Tokyo - I think it's safe to say you've developed a foundation of right understanding over the years. Not so for me. At the same time, by letting go intellectually of desire for results re satipatthana, I might leave myself open for results - who knows? I will keep listening and reflecting... > BTW Chanda is not lobha. No, but chanda is desire, in one meaning of the word. I found that sutta in the index under "desire" BTW, are you thinking of coming up to Tokyo any day soon? I'd love to meet you again. Metta, Phil 47034 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - 199. / Questions lbidd2 Tep: "When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping?" Hi Tep, My guess is that all seven contemplations are mundane. Abandonment is temporary but accumulated. Soma Thera translates "he causes cessation(nirodhanupassana), not arising" as "with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination". I interpret this as cultivating intention or desire (chandha) to stop, do less, proliferate less, not as causing nibbana. BPS has a manual called "The Seven Contemplations of Insight" by ~Naa.naaraama, but I don't have it. Larry 47035 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:06pm Subject: Re: A short message from Htoo foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > I will be away for a month. Last month, I said I would be away for 2 > months. For finishing touches on Patthana Dhamma I came back in the > middle of my busy schedules. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo, I won't miss your posts so much now I have the lovely Dhamma site you put up. Thank you for the Good Dhamma Works and I am working away at my Dhamma studies. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.95 Phena Sutta Foam Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. Beginning with the body as taught by the One with profound discernment: when abandoned by three things — life, warmth, & consciousness — form is rejected, cast aside. When bereft of these it lies thrown away, senseless, a meal for others. That's the way it goes: it's a magic trick, an idiot's babbling. It's said to be a murderer No substance here is found. Thus a monk, ersistence aroused, should view the aggregates by day & by night, mindful, alert; should discard all fetters; should make himself his own refuge; should live as if his head were on fire — in hopes of the state with no falling away. With Metta, Lisa 47036 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Evan_Stamato... Hi Phil, When I read this sutta, the way I interpreted it was that no matter what sort of wish you hve for attainments, it is not what gives you the attainments. The only thing that will lead to attainments is the eightfold path, namely right view, etc. So in this instance, the soggy piece of wood is the non-path ie wrong view, etc. So the conclusion as I see it is if you want to dry out the wood, don't worry about wishing for any attainments, just follow the eightfold path to perfection and the attainments will follow. Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Sent: Monday, 27 June 2005 11:06 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Hi all I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. I thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in the modern, noisy, dirty world. "Suppose a man in need of fire, looking for fire, wandering in search of fire, would take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood. If he were to take a fire stick and rub it into a wet, sappy piece of wood even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, he would be incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results. "In the same way, any priests or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results." Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. Metta, Phil 47037 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:33pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood/ use a furnace! buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil {and other DSG members} - Phil (#47026) : Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. Phil (#47033) : At the same time, by letting go intellectually of desire for results re satipatthana, I might leave myself open for results - who knows? I will keep listening and reflecting... Tep: You can accelerate the wood drying process by means of a furnace without having to burn your mind with lobha or delude it with a wrong view (the lurking 'self ' demon that is ready to jump at you?). Isn't that a better solution? With karuna, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi all > > I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta > I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. I > thought it really captures why chanda (desire) for results re > satipatthana is likely to be unwholesome and counter-productive for > people like me, who are bombarded all day by sensory experience, in > the modern, noisy, dirty world. > (snipped) > > Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know > when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna > (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. > > Metta, > Phil 47038 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma foamflowers Hi Jon, I found some interesting words in Colette's post as well as yours so I chased some of them down. Colette: > > "In the Suttas we often come across such phrases as 'ko hetu, ko > >paccayo' - 'what cause, what reason'. In the Abhidhamma both hetu > >and paccaya are differentiated and are used in specific senses. The > >term hetu is applied to the six roots explained above. > >Paccaya is an aiding condition (upakaraka dhamma). > > Like the root of a tree is hetu. Paccaya > >is like water, manure, etc." Jon asked Colette: I'm interested in the term 'upakaraka dhamma', since the subject of whether conditions are or are not 'dhammas' has come up a few times. Does the source text have anything more to say about it? LisaH: Jon, I found the source text I think, but I didn't find any mention of 'not dhamma.' Also I did a bit more exploring because I don't know these words well and this is what I found. Not to take away from Colette finding this, I would like to discuss what is and is not dhammas. http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/abhisgho/abhis03.htm The four Great Essentials (Mahabhuta), o Bhikkhus, are the causes (hetu), the conditions (paccaya) for the manifestation of Form-Group (rupakkhandha)." Here hetu is used in the sense of causal relation (paccaya-hetu). There is a subtle distinction between hetu and paccaya. The former signifies root (mula); the latter, an aiding factor (upakaraka dhamma). Hetu is compared to the roots of a tree, and paccaya to manure, water and soil that aid its growth. This distinction should be clearly understood. It should also be noted that at times both hetu and paccaya are used as synonymous terms. iii) uttama-hetu, chief cause or condition. A desirable object acts as the chief (uttama) cause in producing a good result and an undesirable one in producing a bad result. Here it means the chief cause. iv) sadharana-hetu, the common cause or condition. Ignorance is the cause (hetu), condition (paccaya) of volitional activities (sankhara). Here hetu is used as the general cause. Just as the essence of both earth and water is the common cause of both sweetness and bitterness, even so ignorance is the common cause of volitional activities. Though hetu assumes different shades of meaning in the Text, in this particular instance it is used in the specific sense of root. 10. All the ahetuka cittas are devoid of all roots. Hence they are neither moral nor immoral. They are regarded as unmoral. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL02.html 'upakaraka,' which means that which assists or renders help (in the arising of paccayuppannadhamma.) Here the present visible object is the arammana-paccaya, and is causally related to the two classes, good and bad, of consciousness of sight. Similarly, the present audible object is causally related to the two classes of consciousness of sound; the present odorous obect, to the two classes of consciousness of smell; the present sapid object, to the two classes of consciousness of taste; the present three classes of tangible object, to the two classes of consciousness of touch; and the present five objects of sense, to the three classes of consciousness known as the triple element of apprehension[2]. All these five objects of sense, present, past or future, and all objects of thought, present, past, future or outside time, are arammana-paccaya and are causally related, severally, to the seventy-six classes of consciousness known as mind-cognitions (or elements of comprehension). In what sense is 'arammana' to be understood, and in what sense 'paccaya'? Arammana is to be understood in the sense of 'alambitabba', which means that which is held or hung upon, so to speak, by mind and mental elements. Paccaya is to be understood in the sense of 'upakaraka,' which means that which assists or renders help (in the arising of paccayuppannadhamma .) Concerning the word 'alambitabba', the function of the 'alambana' of minds and their mental factors is to take hold of or to attach to the object. For instance, there is in this physical world a kind of metal which receives its name of 'ayokantaka' (literally, iron-desire), lodestone, on account of its apparent desire for iron. When it gets near a lump of iron, it shakes itself as though desiring it. Moreover, it moves itself forward and attaches itsel f firmly to the iron. In other cases, it attracts the iron, and so the iron shakes itself, approaches the lodestone, and attaches itself firmly to it. Here we see the power of the lodestone, which may be taken as a striking representation of the 'alambana' of mind and the mental factors. Upa (p. 138 ) -- [Vedic upa; Av. upa on, up; Gr. u(po/ under, u(pe/r over; Lat. sub fr. *(e)ks--upo; Goth. uf under & on; Ohg. uf = Ags. up = E. up; Oir. founder. See also upari] prefix denoting nearness or close touch (cp. similarly a), usually with the idea of approach from below or rest on top, on, upon, up, by Karaka (p. 210 ) (usually --°) the doer (of): Vin II. 221 (capu--capu°); sasana° he who does according to (my) advice Sn 445; Bdhd 85 sq.; -- f. karika : veyyavacca° a servant PvA 65 (text reads °ta); as n. the performance of (--°), service: dukkara-- karika the performance of evil deeds S I. 103; Th 2, 413 (=ThA 267).--agga--karika first test, sample Vin III. 80 dhammakaraka there, and at II. 118, 177. This means "regulation waterpot" as it was provided with a strainer (parissavana) to prevent injury to living things. See also Miln 68; Pv III. 224 ; PvA 185. -- 2. hail (also karaka) J IV. 167; Miln 308; Mhvs XII. 9. nn --vassa a shower of hail, hail--storm J IV. 167; Miln 308; DhA I. 360. With Metta, Lisa 47039 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:34pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Hi Jon, You ask a great question -- one that I think is central to the problem. I think you are right in your implication that a doctrine of anatta without dhammas is not conducive to any development of insight -- it would more resemble a dead fatalism. The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few months. Metta, Dan > Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of > dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could > the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any > benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? > > Jon > > Dan D. wrote: > > >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words > >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of > >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of > >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, > >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of > >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal > >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion > >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare > >cases, contented disinterest.) > > > >Metta, > > > >Dan > > > >Jon: "..the same 'doctrine of the tilakkhana' it would mean that > >follower of that doctrine could become arahants..." > > > > 47040 From: "Eznir" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 eznir2003 Dear Sukinder Sukinder: Yes, why this and not another. We can't choose to have awareness, less so on a particular dhamma. We certainly are choosing one thing or another all the time, whether we like to sleep, sit, stand or walk, even when we are engaged in some activity or other. If your answer is 'No we can't choose', then I request you to hold your breath for *ever*! You will find yourself 'choosing' to breath before long! I'm sure you'd agree with me on the fact that we are choosing one thing or another all the time. All the time, we are engaged in some duty of our choosing. This duty may be looking after our children, cooking at home or even simply doing nothing! Whatever the activity that we are engaged in we are mindful of it. If not we cannot perform that activity properly. If we are taking a stroll in a busy street, we are mindful of it. If not we might meet with an accident, although we may be thinking of something else while walking! The degree of this mindfulness is a different matter. If we take a stroll with a romantic notion in mind, then we would be thinking likewise during the walk. If we take a walk as an exercise after dinner, then that would be its outcome. If we take a walk with the intention of doing walking meditation then that too would be its end result. In each of these cases we have to choose, the intended purpose of our walk. Awareness just doesn't simply drop in from the sky, one has got to cultivate it. In this way we can choose to be mindful so that awareness, even on a particular dhamma, would develop. ========================================= Sukinder: My point however was to show the danger of lobha and moha in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which can then lead us astray, away from the middle path. Exactly! All the more reason why we should choose to cultivate mindfulness and awareness. It is only then that with directed thought and sustained thought we nurture the conditions for panna to arise. When ever the hindrances that you mentioned above arises one must be aware that they have arisen. Only then does panna know that it is a mind with hindrances and how it arose. But why should we know how hindrances arise? So that panna will know the cause & conditions for its arising. ========================================= Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do arise all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be reminded about the moment or we will not. It is nesessary. Dhammas do arise all the time and to be reminded about the moment or not, does depend on the inclination of our mind. Our minds are never in a blank state, all the time it is involved in some thinking. ========================================= Sukinder: If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows. But this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash! They too are subjected to the "many, many conditions" you mentioned above. These many many conditons are the inclination of the mind that conditons alobha and vijja to arise! ========================================= Sukinder: But their opposites don't and we could do well with reminders about their being almost perpetually present. See how you contradict yourself here; you say, "Not necessary to say, "keep in mind"" that dhammas do arise all the time. But when it comes to lobha and avijja you say, "we could do well with reminders about their being almost perpetually present" - that is to *keep in mind*. They too are dhammas that arise all the time? ========================================= Old Eznir: The point in all this is that it is better to incline ones mind in a positive sense rather than the negative, even in matters of Dhamma. Sukinder: Here I can't agree. The development of wisdom takes place only insofar as wisdom *does* arise. It is not a matter of developing an attitude regardless of this, does it? The gradual elimination of suffering in any form comes from "knowing", and not from choosing to pay attention to a particular idea. The present moment is proped up by many many conditions or thought processes; just like the previous 'present' moment; and so will the subsequent 'present' moment. This train of 'present' moments will give rise to wisdom that accumulates in succession only if the thought processes that conditoned the intial 'present' moment to this train, is such, that it strengthens itself with every passing 'present' moment and that every passing 'present' moment is consistent and not diversified. We choose or intend every moment(I/m sure you'd agree!). If we choose the breath to be this 'present' moment - in the absence of hindrances or diversified mind - wisdom is bound to accumulate with every passing moment! But only if we choose with every moment to be with the breath! (ie every present moment must be consistent) ========================================= Old Eznir: > The degree to which the present moment is alobha and vijja and not lobha and avijja and therefore less suffering, depends on the inclination of ones mind. As I outlined before, the possibility of either sense occuring in a given moment is possible depending on the weightage given to each sense. It is this sense that is elevated to the status of equanimity when the outcome of a given moment swings to neither, ie ones mind is inclined neither this way or that. Sukinder: So with equanimity, the kind that is worth seeking, comes from "knowing". And this wisdom that `knows', doesn't mind what the present citta is, kusala or akusala. So I think you are not really talking about panna here. This wisdom that knows, do mind what the present citta is! This is mindfulness and awareness. That's how this wisdom knows how things arise, their cause & condition, and how they will not arise again. ========================================= Sukinder: And that would be repeated reminders about Dhamma and the fact that it is all about understanding the present moment. ;-) As I said before, this present moment doesn't just stand by itself, but is proped up by many many conditions. And your 'understanding the present moment' depends on these conditions that this 'present moment' is proped up with. Every moment is not an independent state but is dependent on various factors. This is clearly apparent if one reflects on how one gets these bright ideas! The kind that got Archimedes running naked on the street shouting 'Eureka! Eureka! or Sir Isaac Newton when he saw the apple falling! When ever one has been bothered with a problem for some time; one seem to get the right solution on the spur of the moment, just like that! This is due to reflective thinking on the problem. And so when understanding the dhammas that arise in the present moment. But this is due to *reflexive* thinking. In fact there is no thinking as such but one just 'knows'. Much like intuition, This is wisdom. But this wisdom didn't just arise, but was proped up by an edifice of thought that had pre-occupied the mind during the many many moments just prior to this present moment when wisdom arose! ========================================= Sukinder: Yes, I contend this. The clear understanding of particular characteristics of dhammas, are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus, and clearly distinguishing between nama and rupa. "The clear understanding of particular characteristic of dhammas that are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus" is direct seeing. Direct seeing is by necessity beyond thinking and hence clearly distinguishes between nama & rupa. Understanding is with nama & rupa, whereas direct seeing is nama & rupa. ========================================= Sukinder: Our understanding of feelings, perception, intention and so on is hazy and conceptual, which is far from what they are in the ultimate sense. Our 'understanding' of things in an ultimate sense is by necessity conceptual since it involves thinking and hence far from what they are in an ultimate sense. When we understand something and come to say that we know this or that, the consciousness that subsequently arises is with nama & rupa. ========================================= Sukinder: If we attempt to understand them in experience without first having a clear understanding on the intellectual level, then we are only going to have yet another hazy view. But the results of deliberate looking *will* be there, which we will then take for real knowledge. You can have discussions and in the process refine and correct your intellectual understanding, but nothing more. I think one must distinguish the essential difference between what is understanding and what is direct seeing. ========================================= Sukinder: The five precepts are only `ideas' which become real only when there is an opportunity for restraint. If one is not mindful of the 5 precepts these opportunities for restraint are missed, hence the purpose of these 5 precepts! And so with the 8 or 10 precepts, they give a greater opportunity to develop one's mindfulness. Need we say more of the 227 patimokka sila kept by the Sangha! Vinaya is the backbone of the Sangha, which in turn is the Dhamma in practice. Shall continue when time permits! Metta Eznir 47041 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:07pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear CharlesD, I'm glad to hear from you on this thread. I think you are right that to fully discuss conceptions of anatta at the deepest level in two different traditions is beyond any of us. However, considerations at more modest levels is certainly possible, and, I think, of value. I've found that at the most superficial levels, Christian and Buddhist thinking is very similar ("Be good"), at less superficial levels they are very divergent ("Salvation through Christ" vs. "Eightfold path"), and at moderate depth they are similar (lobha/moha/dosa as unwholesome roots; anatta, anicca, dukkha of specific dhammas that arise). But at the deepest levels, I sense that they are once again divergent ("salvation" and "enlightenment" are quite distinct). I can't offer anything of value beyond speculation at the deeper levels, and I don't anticipate *pretending* to discuss those issues in any substantial way. [I can see Jon and Sarah objecting strenuously at this point -- "Dan, you silly! Anatta, anicca, dukkha are deep, DEEP, and not 'moderately' deep!" I agree, but they can be known in part before enlightenment.] This is something I've been thinking about for a few years now, and I am hoping to write more on this subject in the coming months. I need to put it off for awhile yet, but I hope you can chime in again later. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Jon and Dan, > > Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. > > But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > > CharlesD > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, 26 June, 2005 14:18 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: `Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] > > > Hi Dan > > Is the anatta of the Christian teaching anatta as a characteristic of > dhammas? If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could > the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any > benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned? > > Jon > > Dan D. wrote: > > >No, Jon, not the *same* doctrine, but similar enough so that the words > >of either one could help virtually anyone deepen the understanding of > >the tilakkhana. I think this rarely happens, though, for a couple of > >reasons. First, because the descriptions are so vastly different, > >understanding the language of the other requires a great deal of > >effort. Second, among people in both traditions, there is a great deal > >bigotry (or, in many cases, if not outright "bigotry", such a devotion > >to one's own tradition that all else just seems wrong, or in some rare > >cases, contented disinterest.) > <....> 47042 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:11pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood egberdina Hi Phil, You've had a number of good replies already. Surely there is room for another one. > > Hi all >snip > > Better to be patient about drying out the wood. When will I know > when the wood is dry enough to desire to light a fire? Panna > (wisdom) will know, or it won't. Nothing I can do about that. > Panna could also be arising on a regular basis informing that you are pouring a steady stream of liquid onto your piece of wood. The resolution to accept patience as the only way forward may be nothing more than the smokescreen that hides the unspoken craving for ongoing existence. Who would know? Panna? :-) Kind Regards Herman 47043 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:35pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] There is much ignorance about the processes of cittas which experience objects through the six doors. Do we realize whether there is at this moment seeing, hearing or thinking, or does it seem that these experiences occur all at the same time? In reality only one object can be experienced at a time through the appropriate doorway. When there is hearing only sound is experienced through the ears and when we think of the meaning of the words which are spoken there is not hearing but thinking of concepts. Thinking arises in another process of cittas, it arises in a mind-door process and this is different from the ear-door process. Does it seem that hearing can stay for a while? In reality this is not so, it falls away immediately. But when right understanding has not been developed the arising and falling away of cittas cannot be realized. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47044 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi Howard, > To speak of beings, their rebirths, and their thoughts is to speak > truthfully but figuratively. It would take aeons to unpack that figurative speech > and replace it with literal speech. > Putting it another way, think about the nature and "existence" of > rainbows. The matter is analogous I think. > === I understand what you are saying about truthfully and figuratively, but I am probably not understanding your example of the rainbows, Howard. I understand that I cannot reach or grasp that rainbow, but I can make you aware of it upon seeing it, and so we can enjoy its nature and non-graspable existence together :-) Kind Regards Herman PS When we were kids my father would always say if we came to him complaining of a pain here or there "I don't feel anything". It made us laugh and forget the pain, and taught us a bit about reality :-) 47045 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Robert, ---------------- R: > I'm having some problems following your reasoning on this thread. --------------- I don't think I have been saying anything that hasn't been said before, but I may have been confusing concepts with realities - again. ------------------------ R: > The commentary to the Sammaditthi sutta gives this example http://www.abhidhamma.org/r_view02.htm "It is said that after undertaking the training rules Note, the layman was not a sotapanna. How do you interpret this section? ;-)), ------------------------------------- In a word; 'Descriptive.' :-) As you have always said, there are only dhammas 'rolling on:' reality can be understood or misunderstood, it can't be controlled. Therefore, I don't see that story as telling me what to 'do' (as in, 'which conventional course of action to take'). So, what *should* I do if seized by a giant snake when I have an axe in my free hand? Or; if my house has termites and it is a case of 'Fumigate or get out'? Or; if my sick cat can be saved but only at considerable financial expense? I don't think it is reasonable to ask my fellow Dhamma students those questions and, if I did, I think the answer would be different every time. Ken H 47046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg]The four Applications of Mindfulness nilovg Hi Howard, op 26-06-2005 22:22 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ========================== > Thank you very much for this, Nina. It happens that I didn't make myself > clear on this point. I didn't mean to imply that kayanupassana practice is > merely preparatory - far from it. In fact, there are suttas that suggest that > such practice can take one "all the way"! I was writing in the context of the > conversation between Jon, James, and Tep. My point was that even with regard > to feelings etc activities *are* given for mindfulness of them, these being > attention and also the cultivation carried out during mindfulness of the body. > In > the sense that prior cultivation of mindfulness of the body conditions > mindfulness of feelings it is preparatory. I meant it only in that sense. ------- N: I would like to just add something. When mindfulness of bodily phenomena is cultivated, mental phenomena, nama, have to be included anyway. I think that one cannot understand rupa as rupa, as different from nama, without understanding nama. When I say understanding I mean: sati sampajañña, direct awareness and understanding. When we take the physical and mental together as a whole, we cling to a concept of person. Whereas when paññaa directly understands that what we take for a person are different elements, the holding on to a person one believes to exist can be eliminated. As you say, mindfulness of body can take one "all the way". This is explained in the Co to the satipatthanasutta, 'The Way of Mindfulness' by Ven. Soma. He has to contemplate origination dhammas and dissolution dhammas. The Co. to the Path of Discrimination explains that this has to be realized in two ways: momentary and also by way of D.O. Because of ignorance there is still arising, when ignorance ceases there are no more conditions for arising. I do not see any order in the four satipatthanas, I see them as means to develop right understanding at any moment. They are means of contemplation, so that we are not forgetful. When moving about in daily life, sometimes there is mindfulness of hardness, sometimes of feeling, sometimes of citta. We cannot tell beforehand and we cannot direct sati. This is a good thing, it helps us to see it as a conditioned element. The four applications are a manner of teaching, a way of helping different people with different inclinations, as I see it. Nina. 47047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (was Re:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 nilovg Hi Charles D, Please could you try again, I did not understand your Q. Is there anything I can help with? Nina. op 26-06-2005 16:53 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > Hi all, > > Just jumping in with out much clue as to what was already said. > > Clinging is not letting go. It does not matter, it could be a belief, an > apple, a feeling, ... > > This does however imply that you are already holding on to what ever it is. 47048 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: out of social context (Categories) sarahprocter... Hi Herman and anyone Down Under or tempted to go Down Under, --- Egbert wrote: > > S: For me, khandhas are the presently arising dhammas. Here's a short > > sutta I think you'll appreciate: > > > It seems to me that any act of differentation, whereby something > becomes this (khanda) and not that (khanda), is the same act that > keeps nibbana at bay. If the question "what is happening at the > present moment" is not at some point put aside, things will keep going > pretty much the way they have been :-) ... S: Would you kindly elaborate. You may be right, but I'm not following you. .... > from > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html <...> > from > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > > "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], > there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being > no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that > consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed > becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed > becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, > sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation > of this entire mass of suffering & stress." > > Sorry if the quotes are too long :-) .... S: The quotes were fine and these are deep, deep suttas. Please would you spell out your comments in more detail for me to consider. ***** S: I'd like to add a personal note re your note to Phil, #46947 I'm sorry to hear of course that you are still having difficulties but am glad, like Howard, that you're getting medical assistance and I agreed with his kind comments. As Phil said it's middle way stuff (or sth like that). Feelings and other dhammas are just as real when we're happy as when we're sad, when we're tired as when we're energetic, when we're taking medication as when we're not. As I see it, understanding and being aware of dhammas arising, doesn't mean giving up holidays, giving up sensible temporary solutions to problems or focussing on the breath under the tree when the result is misery. I see any of these ideas as being serious wrong views and not middle way understanding at all. Another serious wrong view would be to consider that any disenchantment or dispassion we might feel now towards life has anything to do with liberation rather than straight-out aversion conditioned by our strong attachment to life being a certain way. This is the serious kind of wrong view and if taken to an extreme can lead someone to take their life -- wrong because there is the illusion that it's solving a problem. Herman, I know you have tried for many years to find solace in the dhamma. Thank you for trusting us all here enough to share your difficulties. Let us continue to be your friends so we can try to share the solace we find, the solace in the bitter medicine when we learn about the islands in the oceans of concepts. I'm glad to hear that you consider your wife's and children's welfare so much. As I said recently to my sister-in-law, when we're helping those around us who need our help, there's no thought of 'me' and my problems. Don't you agree? I think that by accepting medical help you're showing kindness and consideration to your family who must care so much for your welfare. Vedana are always arising regardless...don't worry, they'll continue to arise. What is the use of just cultivating more unpleasant feelings in this short life:)?. Please do continue to question anything any of us feel comfy about here:). I know that I speak for Nina and Jon and others too when I say we're always glad when you're around, even if your posts need some sweeteners at times:). And no, I don't agree with you when you say you 'would like it for me, if I didn't exist'-that's just ignorance and dangerous day-dreaming...... Herman, Jon and I are planning to be in Sydney and also Noosa in the first half of August (nothing fixed yet). Would you be able to meet us in one or other place? Perhaps you and your wife might like a weekend in Noosa for a holiday and to meet us and others too ??w'end Aug13th? Metta, Sarah ======= 47049 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > S: "it's important to understand that cittas experience or cognize > objects" > > L: Why? .... S: Because namas (i.e cittas and cetasikas) can never be understood if their characteristic of experiencing objects is not known. For example, take seeing consciousness. It experiences visible object. Right now as it arises, that is it’s nature or characteristic. If there is no visible object to be seen, there is no seeing. The same applies to attachment/desire. It doesn’t arise in a vacuum, but when it arises it clings on to its object. .... > > S: "if the (javana) cittas experience visible object (a paramattha > dhamma),the accompanying ignorance will experience it too, but not > knowing anything about it, because it's 'blind'." > > L: I wouldn't say "blind" because then there wouldn't be an experience. > Instead I would say ignorance is a misinterpretation. .... S:See your extract from Vism #46264 “ ‘Delusion’ has the characteristic of blindness, or it has the characteristic of unknowing.” Etc The misinterpretation is the characteristic of ditthi. Also #46977 'Cetasikas' "Moha conditions ditthi but they are different realities. Moha is ignorant of the true nature of realities and ditthi has wrong view about them". .... > S: "There can't be a citta or cetasika arising without an object." > > L: If a citta arises _as_ an object that citta does not arise with an > object. ... S: That’s a good point. When citta or cetasika is the object, they are experienced, they are not experiencing. But we were talking about cittas with and without ignorance experiencing visible object and taste, weren’t we? .... > You are so busy maybe we should park this discussion. ... S: No let’s not park it. I think we need to hammer out these points. Sorry if I gave the impression anytime of being too busy.... I enjoy being busy. Blame it on Nina and Jon who keep even busier:). .... >I believe this is > your position (corrections welcome): when like likes blue, blue is seen > as permanent. .... S: Hmmm....to me ‘blue’ is a concept. When there’s liking for it, most the time it’s just liking with ignorance. Of course, concepts are not permanent or impermanent. ... >Like likes a seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma. ... S: visible object is the paramattha dhamma. I would never say ‘blue’ is a paramattha dhamma. Visible object has the aspect of colour, however...various colours. .... >My > view is a 'seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma' is a concept. ... S: yes, whenever there is the idea of a permanent p.d, it’s a concept – not the real thing. However, before there is that illusion, there is the experiencing of the p.d with or without ignorance. At such times, even if it’s not known, the p.d is experienced. .... >I think > it is just a difference of perspective. The important point is that > desire and aversion always arise with ignorance and without ignorance > nothing is desirable or hate-able. ... S: AGREED!! Pls let me know any disagreements. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for typing out the long extract and comy on 3rd arupa jhana. I'd be unsure of a couple of comments in Htoo's series and this confirmed the points were correct. (I've always avoided these parts of the Vism but you force-fed me:)). ======= 47050 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:50am Subject: RE: avijja and moha RE: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 228 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (b) sarahprocter... Hi Frank (& Nina), --- frank wrote: > Hi Sarah and Nina, > Sarah, what was the answer you received in Bkk (Bangkok?)? And were you > satisfied with the answer? ... S: I raised it because Htoo had written sth in a post about the different meanings of these terms and I had thought they were more or less synonymous, but wished to check. I was satisfied because the answer was along the lines I'd understood which we've mentioned -- just different names for different aspects (like with panna, lobha and so many others with all their aspects under different terms). So avijja is an aspect of moha, of not understanding dhammas. In one of the extracts I gave, it suggested that all aspects should be understood. Perhaps in this sense we can say you're right, moha includes many aspects. (Dhsg 390). But in the Vbg quote I gave, I believe moha was given as an aspect of avijja.....along with so many other aspects - eg flood, bond, latent, uprising, barrier, bad root etc etc. In fact, looking at the Pali, the list was almost identical for these aspects of avijja with the Dhsg aspects for moha.... It was a good question... Metta, Sarah ======= 47051 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:11am Subject: Always Different ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Expectation inevitably creates Disappointment: How does one create future frustration for oneself ? By expecting: Ooh May I enjoy such & such form in the future. Ooh May I enjoy this & that feeling in the future. Ooh May I enjoy exactly these perceptions in the future. Ooh May I enjoy my beloved favourite experiences in the future. Ooh May I enjoy only those ideal mental constructions in the future. Ooh May I enjoy solely preferred types of consciousness in the future. On the contrary: One is always content if without any expectations: Let the past be past, passed & forgotten for never return to it again. Let forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions & consciousness here and now in the present be as they may. Let whatever arise & cease... May I relinquish any hope, wish & craving for whatever future forms, feelings, perceptions, constructions & future types of consciousness... May I thus remain just aware, calm, clear, content & unagitated!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 11-12 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47052 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: Any Kind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear htootintnaing & Dhamma Friends: Thanx for the pali clarification. I am responsive to any kind of request as long as it carries the name: Samahita, since then it will be filtered out by some mail filters, I recently have set up to monitor the many groups, I try to be at service at. These will hopefully ensure real Two-Way communication as requested by many. May there be Calm, Content & Happiness : - ] bhikkhu samahita, Sri Lanka 47053 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:16am Subject: Exhaustive Classifications ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friend sarah abbott wrote: >there are no dhammas or realities anywhere outside the 5 khandhas. Sadhu! Indeed well spoken! Buddhas always operate with only Exhaustive Classifications ... For people of different capability, these are then formulated at different levels or degree of differentiation: Thus, there are neither any states or realities anywhere outside: 1: Name-&-Form (nama-rupa) (only a duality!) 2: The 12 sources (ayatana) of the senses their objects. 3: The 18 elements (dhatu) of the 12 sources & their consciousnesses. Note it is the 'same all' that is classified, but this 'cake' is cut and divided in a different number of classes. The exhaustive ALL is included in all these four classifications. How neat! How impressive! How complete! Deep is this Dhamma verily... : - ] 47054 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:42am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, James {Jon and Sarah} - > > James : I know that this sounds discouraging, because householders > want to have peace and happiness in their lives just as much as > monks/nuns; but this peace and happiness are dependent on one very > important factor: renunciation.Householders, if they wish to achieve as > much as monastics, must be willing to renounce a great many things > and constantly guard the sense doors. Jon, neither of us are doing this > to a significant amount so we can't expect great results. > > Tep: These are very astute observations, James. You hit many nails > right on their heads. Several questions relating to "present-moment" > satipatthana, holy-life/seclusion, samatha-vipassana bhavana and > indriya-samvara sila can be answered by your above remarks. Thanks for the positive comments. Not sure what indriya-samvara sila is but it sounds impressive. ;-) > > > James (talking to Jon): The problem here is that you ask too many > leading questions (as I have pointed out before). You want me to > answer questions in a way which supports your point of view so you > ask questions leading in that direction. This type of exchange is good > for attorneys trying to defend a client (or for President Bush justifying the > current incompetence in Iraq ;-) Jon for President!) but it is not good for a > Buddhist discussion group. > > Tep: Asking leading questions is a trick of political candidates who aim > at leading 'the people' to go to the polls to vote for them. But Jon is not > interested in being a leader, as he tells me in another post today. But if > he changed his mind to become a politician one day, I'd like to > suggest that he adopted a cute nickname to be used during his > political campaign: Jon "Bush" Abbott. ;-)) I hope Jon realizes that we are just poking fun and that it is nothing personal (and President Bush if he should happen to read these posts ;-)). I was surprised about Jon making the comment to you about his not wanting to be a leader. From my perspective, you don't form your own Buddhist Internet group if you don't want to be a leader. > > > Kind regards, > > > Tep Metta, James 47055 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:02am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Andrew T, Thanks for offering your opinion. I have a few comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Regarding "leading questions", these are of 2 types in a court of > law, either > (a) questions that suggest the desired answer; or > (b) questions that assume the existence of disputed facts. > > Whilst Jon stands accused of asking questions that suggest an answer, > I feel his questions admirably uncover the "disputed facts" that > underlie the propositions being put forward. First, I don't quite see it that way. I see questions leading toward a desired answer (perhaps you can offer some examples, such as I have?). Second, there is no reason to ask questions to 'uncover' the 'disputed facts', that method can put people on the defensive. I believe it is better to simply state one's opinion and to only use questions as a means to clarify something that is not understood. However, this could be different when the discussion is face to face. In that case, it is possible to quickly clarify why a question is being asked. In that sense, they are > anything but leading questions. They are very helpful in getting > people to spell out clearly what is being proposed. Socratic questions can do that. However, again, the Socratic Method of questioning is not very useful in an Internet setting, in my opinion. > > We need more of that and not less! If everyone started asking questions of each other without plainly stating positions, it would get pretty hairy around here! ;-) > > Best wishes > Andrew T Metta, James 47056 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/27/05 12:35:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few months. ===================== I would find it very interesting to read some of the detail - to compare "Christian anatta" with Buddhist. If such discussion isn't quite appropriate for DSG, I would at least appreciate seeing specific internet sites (if you know of any) where we could read about this indvidually. BTW, there is something comparable in the Chassidic branches of Judaism as well (based on Cabbala), though I think it is somewhat closer to Advaita Vedanta than to the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47057 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/27/05 2:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: I understand what you are saying about truthfully and figuratively, but I am probably not understanding your example of the rainbows, Howard. I understand that I cannot reach or grasp that rainbow, but I can make you aware of it upon seeing it, and so we can enjoy its nature and non-graspable existence together :-) ====================== The analogy is strained, because the 2 matters are somewhat othogonal to each other, but my meaning is the following, using physicalist conventions: There seems to be some "thing" we see that we call a rainbow - some multi-colored something-or-other that arches across the sky. But more detailed investigation reveals that what is "really" there (physically) pertains to fine water droplets, sunlight, and refraction. But, Herman, I'm quite prepared to drop the rainbow analogy or similar mirage analogies, and just leave it at the point of your understanding the figurative truth - literal truth dichotomy, because that is what I think the whole matter is actually about. BTW, some folks will say that inasmuch as "figurative truth" isn't ultimately "true", it shouldn't be honored by the term 'truth'. But I think that is a mistake. Whatever enhances understanding is a kind of "truth", and, moreover, there are elements of reality expressible via figurative speech in an abbreviatioal, short-cut fashion that cannot in a *practical* way be expressed by literal speech. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47058 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]The four Applications of Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/27/05 4:39:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I do not see any order in the four satipatthanas, I see them as means to develop right understanding at any moment. ==================== Well, in the "meditation" discussed in the Anapanasati Sutta, mindfulness of the body, particularly of the breath, is foundational. And in practice, one typically begins with mindfulness of the body and maintains that as centerpiece. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47059 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan - Your advice: > So the conclusion as I see it is if you want to dry out the wood, don't > worry about wishing for any attainments, just follow the eightfold path > to perfection and the attainments will follow. > How would you "follow the eightfold path to perfection"? Thank you for the good beginning. Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > When I read this sutta, the way I interpreted it was that no matter what > sort of wish you hve for attainments, it is not what gives you the > attainments. The only thing that will lead to attainments is the > eightfold path, namely right view, etc. So in this instance, the soggy > piece of wood is the non-path ie wrong view, etc. > (snipped) > Metta, > > Evan 47060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. nilovg Hi Andrew, James, Tep, op 27-06-2005 01:59 schreef Andrew op athel60@...:> > Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly > excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and > frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. > > I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. ---------- Nina: I agree, Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent. Jon and Sarah are doing the task of being moderators for this list in an admirable way. We have many members with different opinions and thus, it is not an easy task. They do all to keep the good spirit here and we should be grateful to them. We members should do our utmost to continue in this spirit and avoid all personal insinuations and disqualifications, even talking in an ironical way about persons, since this does not help in the least for the understanding of the Dhamma. Nina. 47061 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:10am Subject: Re: Abhinnas & Others jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who > say they do not entertain thoughts of beings. > > Some of the higher powers available to those with mastery of the > mind include: > seeing the rebirths and planes of existence of "others" > reading the thoughts of "others" > I'm wandering what it could mean to someone who doesn't entertain > the thought of beings that proficiency in the nanas and jhanas > leads to knowlede of mental states and abodes of "others"? > > Kind Regards > > Herman Hallo Herman In the thread 'out of social context' I had a discussion with Sarah (and others) about my proposal for a new 'social citta': "THE INTUITIVE, SO IMMEDIATE, AWARENESS OF THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER BEING" After long thinking this was the only possiblilty to me to fill the gap in Abhidhamma with a social dimension. Sarah said 'we' don't need such a new citta. Partly your question is another, about higher powers, but maybe everybody has the possibility to such a citta, that it can be made more sensitive by exercises. An other solution: there is more than one citta: - one in the plane of desire: the 'normal intuition' - one in a higher plane (rupavacara, arupavacara, lokuttara) It will not be easy to convince the Abhidhamma-community to add dhamma to the list (but it will happen in the next five hundred years). Metta Joop 47062 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:18am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Howard, I don't know of any websites that discuss a bridge between a Christian view of the tilakkana and the Buddhist version. It seems that the more that people know the one, the less interested they are in the other. I think this is natural: why study or think about different frameworks when you know that that the one you already know and are comfortable with is so valuable? No, I don't know of any websites that discuss bridging Christian and Buddhist conceptions and insights about tilakkana. And, Howard, you've lost me in your discussion of various branches of Chassidic Judaism, Cabbala, and Advaita Vedanta. The limit of my knowledge of Chassidic Judaism goes little beyond having a sense that Chassidic Jews wear beards (well, at least the men) and black clothes. And that there is an emphasis on strictly following the Law. I can't help but think that among the strongly devout, there wouldn't now and then be glimpses of the futility of upholding the Law in its entirety by conventional right effort. Is there also a notion that not even an iota of the law can be fulfilled by conventional right effort? Metta, Dan > I would find it very interesting to read some of the detail - to compare > "Christian anatta" with Buddhist. If such discussion isn't quite appropriate > for DSG, I would at least appreciate seeing specific internet sites (if you > know of any) where we could read about this indvidually. > BTW, there is something comparable in the Chassidic branches of Judaism > as well (based on Cabbala), though I think it is somewhat closer to Advaita > Vedanta than to the Dhamma. > > With metta, > Howard > 47063 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/27/05 10:20:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: And, Howard, you've lost me in your discussion of various branches of Chassidic Judaism, Cabbala, and Advaita Vedanta. The limit of my knowledge of Chassidic Judaism goes little beyond having a sense that Chassidic Jews wear beards (well, at least the men) and black clothes. ------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Yep, as regards Chassidism, you've zeroed right in on the essentials! ;-)) ------------------------------------------- And that there is an emphasis on strictly following the Law. I can't help but think that among the strongly devout, there wouldn't now and then be glimpses of the futility of upholding the Law in its entirety by conventional right effort. Is there also a notion that not even an iota of the law can be fulfilled by conventional right effort? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Conventional right effort including study, absorptive prayer & contemplation, and a kind of mindfulness practice is central. The other thing that is central is a form of mysticism that allows for direct apprehension of a sole reality that is considered to be unique and unitary, and thought of in various ways including that of "ayin" (nothingness or emptiness) and "ain sof" (unconstrained/unlimited/unconditioned). ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47064 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:52am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 1... onco111 Ai-yo! Howard, Pali isn't enough for you, eh? Now you are throwing Hebrew at us too? Uff da. Hasta el proximo, Dan P.S. In Buddhism, aren't "nothingness" and "emptiness" distinct notions? > Howard: > Conventional right effort including study, absorptive prayer & > contemplation, and a kind of mindfulness practice is central. The other thing that is > central is a form of mysticism that allows for direct apprehension of a sole > reality that is considered to be unique and unitary, and thought of in various > ways including that of "ayin" (nothingness or emptiness) and "ain sof" > (unconstrained/unlimited/unconditioned). > ===================== > With metta, > Howard > 47065 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: suhada-mitta foamflowers - Good Morning Lisa, I'm at a loss as to your post, "I do remember who you are" or something to that effect. Ya got me babe, whazup with dat? toodles, colette -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Colette, > > Suhada-mitta means 'friend of the heart,' I do remember who you are! > > With Metta, > Lisa Message 46860 From Colette Hi Lisa, If I may Htoo Naing, didn't we encounter each other on a Jhanas site? There, I enjoyed your "sutta's" you posted however the list went to a bad sensation where it was consumed by a rather self-absorbed individual and the owner as well as moderators were more than appreciative of the actions of this self-absorbed individual. At that point I decided they were best left to their own folly and if by chance our paths crossed they would explain their folly to me, if their explanation was realy worth any value. If I may answer this question Lisa has? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Colette I remember you from that particular Jhana site on yahoo. Although I don't remember the individuals running the site as being consumed or self-absorbed. I think most people including myself are that way off and on through out the day. I don't remember Htoo being on the site but there were some very interesting posts made that have been very helpful to me and he may have been one of the people who posted those wonderful suttas and comments. There are so many different kinds of people on the net and so many opinions I just took what I needed and left the rest behind in peace. The yahoo Jhana site did have some helpful information on jhana and vipassana meditation, which I had been looking for and that led me to this site. I remember your posts very well, your writing is very colorful and when I read it I feel like your almost shouting the writing is so strong. That's why I said I remembered you. I mentioned Suhada-mitta means 'friend of the heart,' because your post was very helpful to me and I thanked you and remembered you as Suhada-mitta, a good Dhamma friend. With metta, Lisa 47066 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, Jon, Andrew, and James - I have no idea why my friendly poking at Jon is labeled as "personal insinuations and disqualifications" of Jon's reputation and his method of discussion here. Well, it is more appropriate for Jon to tell us what he thinks -- whether he agrees with Nina and Andrew. If he does, then I will be happy to apologize for my 'bad behavior'. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, James, Tep, > > op 27-06-2005 01:59 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...:> > > Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly > > excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and > > frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. > > > > I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. > ---------- > Nina: I agree, Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent. > Jon and Sarah are doing the task of being moderators for this list in an > admirable way. We have many members with different opinions and thus, it is > not an easy task. They do all to keep the good spirit here and we should be > grateful to them. > We members should do our utmost to continue in this spirit and avoid all > personal insinuations and disqualifications, even talking in an ironical > way about persons, since this does not help in the least for the > understanding of the Dhamma. > Nina. 47067 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corn... upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 6/27/05 10:53:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Ai-yo! Howard, Pali isn't enough for you, eh? Now you are throwing Hebrew at us too? Uff da. ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Hasta el proximo, Dan P.S. In Buddhism, aren't "nothingness" and "emptiness" distinct notions? ------------------------------------------ Howard: They sure are! The thing is that the Hebrew 'ayin', while translating literally as "nothing" or "nothingness", has the sense in this case not of a true nullity - so "emptiness" would probably be a better rendering. Think, for example, of nibbana as the supreme/ultimate emptiness. The idea is similar. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. nilovg Hi Tep, Waht I added to your notes are not my own words, but the notes from the Co, as added by Ven. Nanamoli. After that I noticed that Han also gave the same additions. The language is terse and not easy. the sign arisen in dependence on the normal in-breaths and normal > out-breaths is called the sign too.> Especially the first part is difficult. op 26-06-2005 21:53 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: 2) The object of breathing mindfulness is the "body" (in-breaths, out- > breaths, and the sign) in the sense that once mindfulness is > established, it stays at the object. > ------- Tep: So it seems that you are subtly saying that the 'sign' is not a part of the 'body', while I am saying that it is. N:I do not say this. I have to reflect more, the language is difficult. I understand that the nimitta is the touching of the breath on the upperlip, but there must be more to it. ------ T: Looking further to the second sentence, counting from the one you are > quoting above, you'll see : 'The contemplation is knowledge': the > meaning is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and > contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight are > knowledge.[endquote] > > The term "sign body" implies that sign, in-breaths, and out-breaths are > the three things that together are "the body" where mindfulness is to be > established. Also, I recall from #169 the following: > > "Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object > Of a single cognizance; > One knowing not these three ideas (dhamma) > Does not obtain development." > ------ N: Can we say: the rupa where the breath touches? It is the word body that I find difficult. As to next series, for me that is a lot, since the Co has more explanations. It is good you added the Pali and your question is good. I have to see to Visuddhimagga, conceit, first. Nina 47069 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samahita Bhikkhu. nilovg Venerable Bhante, I do appreciate your post. I can never get enough of this subject. With respect, Nina. op 27-06-2005 11:16 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu.samahita@...: > For people of different capability, these are then formulated > at different levels or degree of differentiation: > > Thus, there are neither any states or realities anywhere outside: > 1: Name-&-Form (nama-rupa) (only a duality!) > 2: The 12 sources (ayatana) of the senses their objects. > 3: The 18 elements (dhatu) of the 12 sources & their consciousnesses. > > Note it is the 'same all' that is classified, but this 'cake' is cut > and divided in a different number of classes. > > The exhaustive ALL is included in all these four classifications. > How neat! How impressive! How complete! > Deep is this Dhamma verily... 47070 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Andrew, James, Tep, > > op 27-06-2005 01:59 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...:> > > Can I just say that I think Jon's method of asking questions is truly > > excellent for a Dhamma discussion group like DSG. He is fair and > > frank and precise and gives every opportunity for correction. > > > > I'm sorry but I don't see any parallel with President Bush at all. > ---------- > Nina: I agree, Jon's method of asking questions is truly excellent. > Jon and Sarah are doing the task of being moderators for this list in an > admirable way. We have many members with different opinions and thus, it is > not an easy task. They do all to keep the good spirit here and we should be > grateful to them. I am grateful to them. However, calling attention to and questioning Jon's method of questioning has nothing to do with his moderation of this group. I was addressing him as a fellow member and therefore don't need to show any special appreciation. Remember- Jon and Sarah wear two hats: one as moderators and one as members. When I adress either one as members, I don't consider their moderator status. I'm sure if you ask them they will say they prefer it that way. > We members should do our utmost to continue in this spirit and avoid all > personal insinuations and disqualifications, even talking in an ironical > way about persons, since this does not help in the least for the > understanding of the Dhamma. Jon took the neutral comment by Tep as a joke, and carried it forward as a joke (a rare and delightful incident for a "Robot" like him ;-) I hope he does it more. He wrote, "I've been called some uncomplimentary things in the past, but being compared to President Bush is taking it to a new high (or low) ;-))." Now, not only can I tell by the tone that it is a joke, but Jon also put the double smiley face to show it was a joke. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with some light humor in this list now and then. It shows our human sides and allows us to connect a bit more. > Nina. With humorous metta, James 47071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] the spirit of the list. nilovg Hi James, Tep, OK, I get the point of both of you. But I rather follow Lodewijk's advice: no joking. It may seem severe, but there is always a danger of jokes getting out of hand or being misunderstood. They can hurt. Personally I find them distracting, we have a lot to read on this list, answer, think over. Lack of time. Nina. op 27-06-2005 20:27 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Now, not only can I tell by the tone that it is a joke, but Jon > also put the double smiley face to show it was a joke. In my opinion, > there is nothing wrong with some light humor in this list now and > then. It shows our human sides and allows us to connect a bit more. 47072 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:22am Subject: A sutta here, a sutta there... ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, Ah, Hong Kong, as a sailor I took one look at a shipmates embroidery on his "cracker jacks" as was astonished that it only takes a short time and doesn't cost anything as it would in the states. Who wouldn't lust after such work, huh? There are countless other aspects of Hong Kong I could go into however time leaves me to simply answer your request to the sutta I found so beneficial. I'm sorry I don't seem to have a return address on the bottom of the page however the cover page reads as follows: Duddha first Sermon Chamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta Turning the Wheel of the Dhamma and Anattalakkhana Sutta By Ledi Sayadaw U Pe Maung Tin compiled by M.Paw (Prepared) for Aspirants on the hunt ofr finding the path leading to the cesstion of suffering, Nibbana. anybody know the address or site I might've gotten that from? toodles, colette 47073 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:53am Subject: Evan, you've walked thru a rather large pile! ksheri3 Good Morning Evan, what a hallucination you're having, why are you so masochistic? Too much of that x-tainity thing, I believe, while you were growing up. Okay, lets play, I believe they call it "magi noir". > A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No more need for them. Lets take it easy here and ask where that adage went to: "You are as young as you feel". Lets move up the consciousness and ask Barry Bonds, playing baseball for a living, which happens to be a child's game, making hordes of money, advertising his good fortune to others as a role model and at the same time using drugs, pharmecuticals, from a pharmecutical cartel, to enhance his value to the child's game of baseball and to his bank account. What do middle-managers do as they escalate in the careers if not play games like little children, what do the chance meetings between male & female do at social institutions like bars, if not play games like children to entice the other into compromising positions? the list goes on and on but that is the path you chose to access. May I ask you now for your own good to back out of this course since I'm well versed in wallowing in styes, and defication from others. Again, however, it's not my choice some people just gotta do what they gotta do. ;)) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > I think you should take the time to understand. You are thinking in > terms of base feelings. What happens is a turning away from attraction > to forms. A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No > more need for them. <....> 47074 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:07pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > If everyone started asking questions of each other without plainly > stating positions, it would get pretty hairy around here! ;-) Hi James, Tep and Nina Thanks for your kind and good-natured responses. This will be my last post on this thread because I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that there is a contrary viewpoint to that expressed, actually or humorously, by James and Tep. As a final fairness to Jon, I have to point out that his position on Dhamma questions is clearly set out for all newcomers to read in the Useful Posts. So Jon and Sarah are heading Noosa way in August? I look forward to seeing them again! Best wishes Andrew T 47075 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan, you've walked thru a rather large pile! Evan_Stamato... Yes, I agree but they don't play with childrens' toys. May you be well and happy, With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 12:53 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Evan, you've walked thru a rather large pile! Good Morning Evan, what a hallucination you're having, why are you so masochistic? Too much of that x-tainity thing, I believe, while you were growing up. Okay, lets play, I believe they call it "magi noir". > A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No more need for them. Lets take it easy here and ask where that adage went to: "You are as young as you feel". Lets move up the consciousness and ask Barry Bonds, playing baseball for a living, which happens to be a child's game, making hordes of money, advertising his good fortune to others as a role model and at the same time using drugs, pharmecuticals, from a pharmecutical cartel, to enhance his value to the child's game of baseball and to his bank account. What do middle-managers do as they escalate in the careers if not play games like little children, what do the chance meetings between male & female do at social institutions like bars, if not play games like children to entice the other into compromising positions? the list goes on and on but that is the path you chose to access. May I ask you now for your own good to back out of this course since I'm well versed in wallowing in styes, and defication from others. Again, however, it's not my choice some people just gotta do what they gotta do. ;)) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > I think you should take the time to understand. You are thinking in > terms of base feelings. What happens is a turning away from attraction > to forms. A bit like a child giving up its toys when it grows up. No > more need for them. <....> 47076 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Evan_Stamato... Tep, All I was saying is that the soggy wood represents wrong view, etc (wrong path). Drying out the wood is right view, etc (right path). Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 27 June 2005 10:29 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Hi, Evan - Your advice: > So the conclusion as I see it is if you want to dry out the wood, > don't worry about wishing for any attainments, just follow the > eightfold path to perfection and the attainments will follow. > How would you "follow the eightfold path to perfection"? Thank you for the good beginning. Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > When I read this sutta, the way I interpreted it was that no matter > what sort of wish you hve for attainments, it is not what gives you > the attainments. The only thing that will lead to attainments is the > eightfold path, namely right view, etc. So in this instance, the soggy > piece of wood is the non-path ie wrong view, etc. > (snipped) > Metta, > > Evan 47077 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:54pm Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood philofillet Hi all > I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta > I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. My mistake. It was MN 126. "Does desire for the awakening get in the way of the awakening?" is how access to insight puts it in the index. Definitely an interesting question, and one which we will not be able to answer through discussion. It depends whether the chanda is kusala or akusala at the moment of considering Dhamma. (We know that citta is far more likely to be akusala than kusala, so it is safe to say that chanda is more likely to be akusala.) Evan, yes, you're right, getting Right View in place precedes all. But getting Right View in place is not easy - it certainly is more than asking oneself if one is free of annihaltionist view, eternalist view etc. I read one sutta this morning (MN 115, skilled in elements) in which "one possessing right view" is defined as sotapanna, at least. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat an formation as permanent - there is no such possbility." i.e at lest sotapanna) So yes, by drying out the soggy wood I agree, getting right view in place. But no so easy. On the other hand, thinking that X must be done before Y is possible to make Z happen is the wrong approach. As Rob K suggests, here and now, whatever our situation, whatever the amount of sensual input in our life, is the place and time for satipatthana. But patience is requited, and desire for results definitely should be questioned...patiently. Metta, Phil 47078 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Evan_Stamato... Hi Phil, I agree with you. Right view is very difficult go perfect so starting with right speech, right livelyhood, right action can help with the more difficult "rights". That's not to say that the other elements of the path should be neglected but there are elements that are easier to improve than others. We should just do what we can and be content with what we can do. Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 9:54 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood Hi all > I was cruising around access to insight trying to find the sutta > I asked about some posts back and came across this from MN 141. My mistake. It was MN 126. "Does desire for the awakening get in the way of the awakening?" is how access to insight puts it in the index. Definitely an interesting question, and one which we will not be able to answer through discussion. It depends whether the chanda is kusala or akusala at the moment of considering Dhamma. (We know that citta is far more likely to be akusala than kusala, so it is safe to say that chanda is more likely to be akusala.) Evan, yes, you're right, getting Right View in place precedes all. But getting Right View in place is not easy - it certainly is more than asking oneself if one is free of annihaltionist view, eternalist view etc. I read one sutta this morning (MN 115, skilled in elements) in which "one possessing right view" is defined as sotapanna, at least. ("It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat an formation as permanent - there is no such possbility." i.e at lest sotapanna) So yes, by drying out the soggy wood I agree, getting right view in place. But no so easy. On the other hand, thinking that X must be done before Y is possible to make Z happen is the wrong approach. As Rob K suggests, here and now, whatever our situation, whatever the amount of sensual input in our life, is the place and time for satipatthana. But patience is requited, and desire for results definitely should be questioned...patiently. Metta, Phil 47079 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Here's an attempt to sort out our points of controversy: S: "it's important to understand that cittas experience or cognize objects" L: "Why?" S: "Because namas (i.e cittas and cetasikas) can never be understood if their characteristic of experiencing objects is not known. For example, take seeing consciousness. It experiences visible object. Right now as it arises, that is it's nature or characteristic. If there is no visible object to be seen, there is no seeing. The same applies to attachment/desire. It doesn't arise in a vacuum, but when it arises it clings on to its object." ==================== Larry: Here's another way to look at it: "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact". Notice it doesn't say consciousness experiences forms. Here is a slightly different case: if like experiences visible data, what is the experience? Like or visible data? It makes more sense to me to say a visible data experience conditions the arising of a like experience. Before that happens, a visible datum (?) conditions the arising of a visible data experience. I would call 'eye-consciousness' a visible data experience and 'a visible datum (?)' a rupa. I think a better characteristic for nama is "being an experience", rather than "experiencing an object". Second point: I will concede that ignorance is blind. It is blind to the three general characteristics and to individuality (sabhava). What does that mean in the case of an ignorant experience of visible data? I would call it a conceptual experience. ============== S: "visible object is the paramattha dhamma. I would never say 'blue' is a paramattha dhamma. Visible object has the aspect of colour, however...various colours." Larry: I don't understand. Do you mean visible object is several colors at the same time? ================= L: "My view is a 'seemingly permanent paramattha dhamma' is a concept." S: "yes, whenever there is the idea of a permanent p.d, it's a concept – not the real thing. However, before there is that illusion, there is the experiencing of the p.d with or without ignorance. At such times, even if it's not known, the p.d is experienced." Larry: I could change my view to "a seemingly not impermanent paramattha dhamma...." in order to deal with just pure ignorance, without wrong view. As for "even if it's not known, the p.d is experienced", this is trickier than I at first thought. Here's version #3: What is not known (because of blindness/ignorance) and what is experienced? We could say visible data is experienced without noticing (experiencing) the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta and that experience is the object of desire (or what conditions the arising of desire). My basic position is that whatever is perceived inaccurately is a conceptualization. However, I can't think of a really convincing argument to support that, so, that's the best I can do. One other thought did occur though. It has to do with sabhava which I translated (above) as 'individuality'. I had previously thought of sabhava as the particular characteristic that differentiated a dhamma from all others. The hardness of tangible data, for example. However, if ignorance is blind to that, can't experience it, how could there be attachment or aversion toward hardness? As a remedy for that, I wonder if sabhava might mean "not an object". 'Object' is actually a concept like 'left' or 'up'. It is half of a dualism, the other half being 'subject'. In other words, 'sabhava' might mean 'simply itself' as opposed to being part of a relationship. This sounds a little like satipatthana, but I'll have to meditate on it. Also, 'individuality' may not be the best choice. Larry 47080 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, interested DSG members - Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given below. Sincerely, Tep ============== From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - 199. (message # 1111) Dear Tep, I have put in the Pali words, and broken up the paragraphs for easy understanding. 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). (1) When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of permanence (niccasannam pajahati), (2) when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of pleasure (sukhasannam pajahati); (3) when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self (attasannam pajahati), (4) when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight (nandim pajahati), (5) when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raagam pajahati), (6) when he causes cessation he abandons arising (samudayam pajahati), (7) when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaanam pajahati). Thus he contemplates the body. 198. 'Development': there are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): (1) development in the sense of non-excess of ideas produced therein (dhammanam anativattanathena bhaavanaa), (2) development in the sense of single function of the faculties (indriyaanam ekarasathena bhaavanaa), (3) development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate energy (tadupaga viriya vaahanathena bhaavanaa), and (4) development in the sense of repetition(aasevanathena bhaavanaa). [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] 199. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths (diigham assaasapassaasa vasena cittassa ekaggatam avikkhepam pajaanato), (1) his feelings (vedanaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); (2)his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa sannaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); (3) his applied-thoughts (vitakka) are recognized as they arise (viditaa vitakkaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham gacchanti); --------------------------------------------------- Han: pajahati = abandon anati vattana = non-excess ekarasa = single function vaahana = effectiveness aasevana = repetition viditaa = clearly recognizable uppajjanta = arises upathahanti = established abbhatthataa = disappearance --------------------------------------------------- Tep's questions: ----------------------- In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising (uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaana). Han: Please look at the paragraphs again and see whether they are still unclear to you. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ====================== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, All - > > Han Tun's contribution for Section iv, 194 -196, is shown below. > > Please notice that the in-breaths and out-breaths are the 'body' > (kaaya), 'gladness' is 'pamojja' not 'piti', and that the 1st tetrad is > known as 'kaaye kaayaa nupassanaa satipatthana bhaavanaa' since the breaths are "body in the body" as stated in DN 22.. > > 47081 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:23pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi everyone, Consider this post to be drenched in honey before you proceed :-) > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > There is much ignorance about the processes of cittas which > experience objects through the six doors. Do we realize whether > there is at this moment seeing, hearing or thinking, or does it > seem that these experiences occur all at the same time? > > In reality only one object can be experienced at a time through the > appropriate doorway. If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. To apply quantity to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. Further, to objectify consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an arbitrary state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of experience. In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic experiencelets. I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about which is what, the framework and the reality. Kind Regards Herman When there is hearing only sound is experienced > through the ears and when we think of the meaning of the words which > are spoken there is not hearing but thinking of concepts. > > Thinking arises in another process of cittas, it arises in a mind-door > process and this is different from the ear-door process. > > Does it seem that hearing can stay for a while? In reality this is not so, > it falls away immediately. But when right understanding has not been > developed the arising and falling away of cittas cannot be realized. > ***** > [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 47082 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest sarahprocter... Dear Friends, ...and onsider this post to be a few brief techno words before you proceed :-) A few updates on the back-up site for DSG: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ 1. The 46’s are now up (i.e posts 46,000- 46,999) thanks to the great work of Connie. These back-up files can be used for searching or for easy scrolling if anyone, like RobM used to, wishes to download and read the archives on a long, long flight. 2. Now that the mystery of the repeated disappearing google search box has been solved (thanks to the detective work of Jon & Connie:)), it should remain in place on this site for the easiest searching of past posts. [a)put in search items, eg ‘spiral Howard Jon’, then when you are given a list of relevant options, b)choose the first, click on ‘cached’ to highlight terms, and c) use ctrl + F and key in word, eg‘spiral’ & next to scroll through quickly] 3. More edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin uploaded – Sri Lanka 2002. (with Sukin, Chris, Betty, Jon,myself,Ranil, Sumane & others). You may wish to download the recordings as we will probably have to rotate them as we edit and upload more, due to limited space on the site. If anyone would like a cd with mp3 on it of any of the recordings, please let Jon or I know (off-list)with your name and full add (in cut and paste form) and we’ll be happy to mail it to you. [4. Talking of google searches, I do recommend gmail for receiving DSG mail if you wish to be able to search incoming mail and also have threads of posts neatly stacked together, as some do....I can see at a quick glance in my gmail account that there have been 76 posts in the walking gacchanto thread! I still prefer using my regular a/c for posting, following incoming mail and printing out, however. To get a gmail a/c you have to have a gmail invite. Let us know if you need one...Thx to Hugo again for this] Metta, Sarah ======== 47083 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:15am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 233 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Moha is ignorant of the true nature of realities, it does not know nåma and rúpa as they are. Moha is lack of knowledge about the four noble Truths: about dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha and the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha1. So long as ignorance has not been eradicated we have to continue to be in the cycle of birth and death, we have to be born again and again. The Påli term avijjå is used for ignorance in connection with the “Dependent Origination”, the conditional arising of phenomena in the cycle of birth and death. Avijjå is the first link in the chain of conditions for the continuation of this cycle. At the attainment of arahatship ignorance is eradicated and then there are no more conditions for rebirth. We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandha-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, III, Last Fifty, Chapter 3, §129, Satisfaction) that in the Deerpark at Isipatana Mahå-Koììhita said to Såriputta: * “‘Ignorance! Ignorance!’ is the saying, friend Såriputta. Pray, friend, what is ignorance, and how far is one ignorant?” “Herein, friend, the untaught manyfolk know not as it really is the satisfaction in, the misery of, the escape from body. So with feeling, perception, the activities… they know not the satisfaction in, the misery of, the escape from consciousness. "This, friend, is ignorance, and thus far is one ignorant.” * In the next sutta (§130) it is said that wisdom is knowing as it really is the satisfaction in, the misery of and the escape from the five khandhas. If there is no development of right understanding one does not see that conditioned realities which arise and then have to fall away again are dukkha, and thus there cannot be escape from dukkha. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47084 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:24am Subject: audio recordings, google and techno babble sarahprocter... All, I forgot to change the subject heading....S. (I was testing the recordings as I posted and didn't know how to turn them off, so was pretty distracted:/). Sumane & Ranil, do hope you're still around and get to listen too. (Gayan, if you're there, pls would you kindly show Ranil the message - his voice comes over very well:))). --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > ...and onsider this post to be a few brief techno words before you > proceed > :-) > > A few updates on the back-up site for DSG: > > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ 47085 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Sarah, Thank you very much for your post. It is greatly appreciated. I would like to reply in detail, which will happen, but not just yet :-) Just a quick answer regarding your travel to Oz. I would love to meet up with Jon and you. It's a bit hard at the moment to make a fixed booking, but if Noosa turns out too difficult then Sydney will be a nice fallback. When things firm up as to your movements, let me know, and I'll plan accordingly. Looking forward to it already :-) Kind Regards Herman > Herman, Jon and I are planning to be in Sydney and also Noosa in the first > half of August (nothing fixed yet). Would you be able to meet us in one or > other place? Perhaps you and your wife might like a weekend in Noosa for a > holiday and to meet us and others too ??w'end Aug13th? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 47086 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Sutta sarahprocter... Hi James & Tep, James, I like your choice of 'the Great Lion's Roar', DN8 and enjoyed your summary and comments. I particularly like the description of the two kinds of asceticism in the sutta and how we cannot tell by lifetsyles of mortification and harsh asceticism about the development of wisdom and whether someone is really 'an ascetic' in the deeper sense. ... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > My online version of this DN 8 does not describe with enough detail the > way that the Buddha recommended Kassapa to develop wisdom. > There are inserted notes (see below) that refer to another sutta, DN 2. > I > have no idea why someone inserted such notes. Was it because DN 8 > was too brief? Or because s/he wanted to shorten it? ... S: Tep, it's the same in the two printed versions of the sutta too. These parts of the sutta are repetitions of DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, so they give the references rather than reprint in full, I believe. Basically verses 41-98 of DN2 should be included. Metta, Sarah ======= ... > An Exerpt from DN 8: > Digha Nikaya 8 Mahasihanada Sutta 1 The Great Lion's Roar > http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/dn-8.htm > > "But, Kassapa, when a monk develops non-enmity, non-ill-will and > heart full of loving-kindness and, abandoning the corruptions, realises > and dwells in the uncorrupted deliverance of mind, the deliverance > through wisdom, having realised it in this very life by his own insight, > > then, Kassapa, that monk is called an ascetic and a Brahmin." > > Then Kassapa said to the Lord : "Reverend Gotama, what then is the > development of morality, of the heart, and of wisdom?" > > "A disciple goes forth and practises the moralities [Digha Nikaya 2 > verses 41-63]. That is the perfection of morality. He guards the > sense- > doors, etc and attains the four jhanas [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 64-82 ]. > That is the perfection of the heart. He attains various insights and > the > cessation of the corruptions [Digha Nikaya 2 verses 83-98]. That is the > > perfection of wisdom. And Kassapa, there is nothing further or more > perfect than this perfection of morality, of the heart and of wisdom." > [endquote] 47087 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41pm Subject: Subtle Highly Refined Addictions ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Hi friend Nina van Gorkom who wrote: >I can never get enough of this subject. If one is slightly addicted to e.g. Abhidhamma a.o. advantageous teachings, then one should leave also this raft behind, without turning around nor looking back even once! Nothing is worth clinging to anyway... your kalyana-mitta : - ] 47088 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 0:02am Subject: Elemental Analysis ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: From external Element to internal Urge to silly Search: There is the element of eye-sensitivity, the element of visual form, the element of visual consciousness. The coincidence of these three is eye Contact... In dependence on the element of eye-sensitivity, there arises eye-contact. In dependence on eye-contact, there arises feeling born of eye-contact. In dependence on feeling born of eye-contact, there arises this craving... In dependence on the element of visual form, there arises perception. In dependence on this visual experience, inclination towards form arises. In dependence on this inclination, desire for particular forms arises. In dependence on this specific desire, a fever for various forms arises. In dependence on this fever for form, search after certain forms arises. In dependence on this search for form, reaching & acquisition of form, comes into being... Such is the arising of this entire mass of suffering... Similarly with the pairs of ear & sound, nose & smell, tongue & taste, body & touch, mind & mental states and their respective kinds of consciousness. This search, this urge, this compulsive drive, is caused by that craving. Craving that was born from feeling, which was arised from contact. Any Craving causes Suffering... Right here and now, later and much later... Right there at Contact, is this suffering thus born... Right there at Contact, is this suffering thus left... Source: The Grouped Sayings on the Elements by the Buddha. Dhatu-Samyutta Nikaya XIV http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 47089 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: No more lurking; plus Cooran kenhowardau Hi Andrew T, --------------- KH: > > If the slaughterman suddenly quits his job (with the intention of > > keeping the first precept) isn't he thinking, "mine, me, my self?" ........... AT: > At the risk of side-tracking poor old Ken H again (-:, it seems to me that thinking in the above terms is a proliferated "standing still" that conditions sinking and not crossing the stream. ------------------------- I don't know if I will sink or get swept away, but at the moment I am treading on thin ice! I must appear to be advocating every kind of precept breaking. ------------------------------ AT: > Conditions will govern what happens, including the volitional aspects. Why not just leave it at that? ------------------------------ I am sure that is the right answer to my question. ---------------------------- AT: > BTW Millie the cat is behind me now, still not walking but lively enough to give me a good scratch as I gave her her pre- breakfast medicine. I'm not mentally agonising about what to do with her. We just carry on moment by moment ... ---------------------------- Hmmm, I'm still not happy with that. You have to know *how* to carry on. Decisions need to be made. My point (wrong though it might have been) was that the Dhamma does not specifically help us with conventional decision-making. So, in the absence of any better ideas, we should follow the social norms. Whatever career and lifestyle we are engaged in, we should just follow standard procedures - without pretending to have control over realities such as right livelihood. Ken H 47090 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg]The four Applications of Mindfulness, Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 27-06-2005 14:13 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: N: I do not see any order in the four satipatthanas, I see them as means to > develop right understanding at any moment. > ==================== > Well, in the "meditation" discussed in the Anapanasati Sutta, mindfulness > of the body, particularly of the breath, is foundational. And in practice, > one typically begins with mindfulness of the body and maintains that as > centerpiece. ------ N: Samatha and vipassana are developed by means of it. One can reach arahatship even with the four discriminations. The more I read about it, the more complicated it seems to me. Take alone the sign, the nimitta. The learner's sign I can understand more or less: where the breath appears at the upperlip. But then the counter inmage, patibhaaga nimitta (at acess concentration) and the attainment nimitta, when jhaana is attained. In the higher jhaanas breathing ceases, how subtle it all is. And all the stages of insight have to be developed when one emerges from jhana. Starting with tender insight as the Co to the Path of Discrimination explains. The four great elements and derived rupas have to be known, and mental phenomena. In what way does it help you with insight? It seems that this meditation only makes sense when one is able to attain jhana at ease. I do not see that this is for beginners. Maintaining it as centerpiece: this seems to me only for those advanced very talented people with jhana accumulations we read about in the Buddha's time. Nina. 47091 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries nilovg Hi Tep, I begin with some additions from the Co. to the Satipatthanasutta, which is partly similar to the Co to the Path of Discrimination, but the latter adds more on insight. Afterwards I shall add more from the Co to the Path of Discrimination. ------ Text: > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it > > (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no > niccato); > (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); > (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato);.... ------ Thereupon, he, the worker in respiration, cognizes the mind (nama) in the pentad of mental concomitants beginning with sense-impression. Subco: The worker in respiration examines the mind and the body, sees the Dependent Origination of ignorance and so forth, and concluding that this mind and this body are bare conditions, and things produced from conditions, and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. Subco: ..... And the yogi who has transcended doubt while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and soullessness, to the mind and body together with the conditions and gradually reaches arahantship [sappaccaya nama rupe tilakkhanam aropetva vipassanam vaddhento anukkamena arahattam papunati]. .... The worker in absorption, namely, he who contemplates upon the factors of absorption, also thinks thus: Supported by what are these factors of absorption? By the basis. The basis is the coarse body. The factors of absorption are here representative of the mind. The coarse body is the body. Having determined thus, he, searching for the reason of the mind and the body, seeks it in Conditions' Mode beginning with ignorance, concludes that this mind and the body comprise just conditions and things produced by conditions and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, and becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and soullessness, to the mind and the body together with conditions and gradually reaches arahantship. *** Nina. 47092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Tep's Questions nilovg Hi Tep, op 27-06-2005 01:15 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Tep's questions: > ----------------------- > In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades > away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he > abandons arising(uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons > grasping(aadaana). > > When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next > sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated > by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is > destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease > (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still > have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? -------- N: I repeat a few points: 4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). I checked some relevant passages of the Visuddhimagga on the third tetrad of mindfulness of breathing that may be of help. We read (Visuddhimagga VIII, 233): Œ... at the actual time of insight he delivers, liberates the mind from the perception of permanence by means of the contemplation of impermanence, from the perception of pleasure by means of the contemplation of dukkha (suffering), from the perception of self by means of the contemplation of not self, from delight by means of the contemplation of dispassion, from greed by means of the contemplation of fading away, from arousing by means of the contemplation of cessation, from grasping by means of the contemplation of relinquishment...² As to the words, , we read in a footnote (Vis. VIII, 234, note 64): Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of insight knowledge (the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, sees their danger and disadvantage. At the end of this tetrad, the Vis. states that this tetrad deals with contemplation of citta. The Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta (the Papa~ncasuudanii, translated by Ven. Soma) states that just as in the case of body and feelings, citta should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. Nina: these contemplations refer to the stages of insight: in the course of insight there is a clearer understanding of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, and hence there is a growing detachment from conditioned dhammas.> **** We discussed before relinquishment: there are two ways: as cutting off defilements and as experiencing nibbaana. We have to consider that there are more than one meaning. Contemplation of relinquisment or abandonment is one of the eighteen kinds of insight. -- You wrote:Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? --------- Tanhaa, all forms of it, is eradicated by the arahat, and then there will be freedom from samsara. Thus, indeed, grasping ceases, etc. As to relinquishment, see above. It does not concern the body, but a growing insight and the experience of nibbaana. **** Nina. 47093 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - Thank you for the clarification. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James & Tep, > > James, I like your choice of 'the Great Lion's Roar', DN8 and enjoyed your > summary and comments. > > ... > S: Tep, it's the same in the two printed versions of the sutta too. These > parts of the sutta are repetitions of DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, so they > give the references rather than reprint in full, I believe. Basically > verses 41-98 of DN2 should be included. > > Metta, > > Sarah 47094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samahita Bhikkhu. Subtle Highly Refined Addictions ;-) nilovg Venerable Bhante, I am not so far yet to leave the raft behind. I need the whole Tpitaka and Commentaries. And the reason is exactly to develop paññaa leading to detachment. Thank you for writing. With respect, Nina. op 28-06-2005 07:41 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu.samahita@...: > Hi friend Nina van Gorkom who wrote: > >> I can never get enough of this subject. > > If one is slightly addicted to e.g. Abhidhamma a.o. > advantageous teachings, then one should leave also > this raft behind, without turning around nor looking > back even once! Nothing is worth clinging to anyway... > > your kalyana-mitta > : - ] > 47095 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:37am Subject: Not so much at home jwromeijn Hallo all The next months I'm hardly at home (retreats, travelling etc) And hardly Internet-access will do me good: feel sometimwes addicted, even when I'm surfing on buddhist sites Perhaps I send a message now and then Metta Joop 47096 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, [I wrote this yest but had computer problems and couldn't send it. Pls do continue to write to us when you have time and best wishes for your retreats and travels....always glad to hear from you....] --- Joop wrote: > J:> This is not 'more detail', Sarah, these are additions. > .... > S: I don't think so. See posts under `Dhammasangani' in U.P. As a > separate thread, I'm happy to go into these topic again in detail. > Take a look and tell me if you're still not satisfied. > Joop: I took a look, I was and I am satistied; that is: I still think > that's possible to add dhammas to the list of the Dhamma Sangani. But > better not discuss about this topic further (it's my intention to be > more careful than some months ago) so I propose: let's agree tot > disagree. .... S: Either way is fine. The cetasikas which are considered by some to be ‘additions’ in the Abhidammattha Sangaha are the 9 denoted by ‘yevapanika’ in Dhammasangani, i.e chanda, adhimokkha, manasikara, tatramajjhattata, karuna, mudita and the 3 path factors which fall under sila. I don’t think anyone would suggest that these are new to the Abhidhamma texts. Take karuna, compassion.....and remember the suttas on the Buddha’s great compassion.... .... > > The same proposal I have about 'my social citta'; you may be right > about what 'thinking' is Abhidhamma was, but I didn't say that" the > intuitive, so immediate, awareness of the presence of another being" > was thinking. ... S: No, you didn’t say so, but I was saying that this is included in cittas and the accompanying cetasikas described. Remember there’s nothing so fast as the speed of cittas and that they are far more variegated than any picture. With almost every citta, there is vitakka ‘touching’ the object and other cetasikas performing their functions. So by the time there is an ‘immediate awareness of the presence of another being’, countless numbers of processes of cittas have arisen and passed away after seeing or other sense door experiences. .... >Maybe it's not a citta but till now you or others have > not given me a good alternative to describe the social dimension of > Abhidhamma. ... S: I think I understand you. I think it’s similar to Herman’s comments about beings and I’m sure many others have the same concerns. .... <...> > Joop: In the first place: I'm not afraid of paradoxes, in fact I like > them. In the second place, when you say "nama or rupa arising", you > are talking of the arising of nama and rupa in me, and I knew that > already; my statement was that I don't want (for ethical reasons) to > reduce that suffering being to an 'It'. .... S: I wouldn’t say that nama and rupa arise in anyone. This would be another kind of sakkaya ditthi – (in brief, a) namas and rupas being the self, b) self in the namas and rupas, c)self outside them, d) self as owner of them) Again, think of the Buddha’s great compassion for all beings, but without any illusion of beings actually existing or any Self in any of these ways. Understanding dhammas leads to more not less ethical consideration. .... > Joop: Come on, that's to modest. But Nyanaponika versus Bhkkhu Bodhi > was about phenomenology versus ontology. More important is my second > step, with the conclusion: we should read all the Teachings of the > Buddha (and the Abhidhamma) from the soteriological viewpoint, that > is that He wanted to liberate the hearer/reader. ... S: Yes, I agree with you as you defined the term for me. The teachings are for development and liberation, not for intellectual or academic achievement or for developing more pride. ..... >So we should not > make any non-soteriological interpretation to these teachings; for > example not making physics and not making metaphysics from them. And > maybe yo're not good in philosophy, soteriology is our core-business > in DSG, isn't it? ... S: Yes, I’m with you wholeheartedly here. ... > S: What is actually experienced when you look at another being? > As I asked Tep, what is seen? What is heard? What is touched? What is > smelt? What is tasted? What is thought about or conceptualized only? .... > Joop: It's not possible to give a general answer to that question, > it's too much and too mixed. ... S: Let’s take one at a time because I think it’s important and relevant to your questions. When you look at a person, what is seen? We think it’s a man or a lady of such and such a name and so on. Isn’t this really thinking? Surely, all that’s seen is visible object.... .... > BTW Thanks for your help in the stagnated discussion between Htoo and > me; I can imagine very good Htoo's being careful. ... S: :-) We all have our own approaches. ... Metta, Sarah ======== 47097 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest lbidd2 Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic experiencelets." Hi Herman, What is experience? Larry 47098 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:25pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Thank you for giving the long Co. to the Satipatthanasutta in order to warm up the discussion prior to the Breathing Treatise (the Anapanasati commentary by the Arahant Sariputta). Tep: Do you personally believe that the examination of the body (rupa) through "thinking" such and such <.. ... 'Supported by what is respiration? Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the coarse body [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four Great Primaries etc.. ...> can be done alone without having to first "emerge from the absorption"? If so, would that kind of "thinking" lead the 'assasapassasa kammika' toward the various insight knowledges as described in the Breathing Treatise, and toward arahantship as stated by the Co.? I ask this question because you yourself have rejected the necessity of absorption(jhana) as the basis for wisdom development (to eradicate asavas). Tep: Another part of the Co. is :"The worker in absorption, namely, he who contemplates upon the factors of absorption, also thinks thus: Supported by what are these factors of absorption? By the basis. The basis is the coarse body. The factors of absorption are here representative of the mind. ... .... concludes that this mind and the body comprise just conditions and things produced by conditions and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, and becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and soullessness, to the mind and the body together with conditions and gradually reaches arahantship". Tep : The above quote is another indication that "the worker in absorption" cultivated insight knowledges by applying tilakkhana to nama by contemplating "upon the factors of absorption" (jhana factors) that are supported by the "body" (rupa). This is a standard way for transcending doubts by means of samatha and vipassana of nama-rupa. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I begin with some additions from the Co. to the Satipatthanasutta, which is > partly similar to the Co to the Path of Discrimination, but the latter adds > more on insight. Afterwards I shall add more from the Co to the Path of > Discrimination. > ------ > Text: (snipped) > And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while cultivating insight, applies > the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and soullessness, to > the mind and the body together with conditions and gradually reaches > arahantship. > *** > Nina. 47099 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:20pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic > experiencelets." > > Hi Herman, > > What is experience? > It is what is. Kind Regards Herman PS I am appreciating your discussions. > Larry 47100 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest philofillet Hi Herman I hope it doesn't feel like I'm pestering you these days. Happily our recent exchange has allowed me to move beyond the infantile aversion response to your posts so that I can benefit from discussing with you. :) > > Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic > > experiencelets." The point is not what Herman, or Larry, or anyone else here thinks experience is, but what the Buddha taught us about what *He* experienced in order to achieve liberation. "Rely on yourself", yes, but the point is to come to understand the Buddha's teaching not form our own interpretations/explanations. The point of Dhamma is detachment and liberation, not psychology or the physiology of sensory experience. Yes, the Buddha most certainly taught that experience is made up of elemental components (see, for one of many examples, MN 115 which is entitled "many kind of elements" in BB's translation.) It doesn't seem to our ignorance-rooted minds that reality is momentary, but that is a reflection of our ignorance, not reality. Metta, Phil 47101 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - Those passages from 'The Visuddhimagga' are always refreshing to me every time I read them (have a copy of the book myself). Nina:... Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of insight knowledge the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, ... Tep: But, isn't the paragraph #197 about the very first ground of the Anapanasati meditation? And we recall that the first ground's meditation object is the breath 'body = long in-breaths and out-breaths. So, I guess the "contemplation of cessation" given by the above Co. may not apply to the case here. ----------------------------------- Nina: The Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta (the Papa~ncasuudanii, translated by Ven. Soma) states that just as in the case of body and feelings, citta should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. Tep: This is an issue that has confused me for a long time. According to the Paramattha-dhamma, a citta (or consciousness) arises and then subsides so fast. So, how can the meditator realize its origination and cessation if not through thinking analytically? How can he contemplate its impermanence if he does not directly experience its dissolution himself? Reading, listening and considering such citta's arising-and- passing-away phenomenon cannot lead to insight knowledges, I think. --------------------------- >Tep: Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease >(according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does > he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? Nina: Tanhaa, all forms of it, is eradicated by the arahat, and then there will be freedom from samsara. Thus, indeed, grasping ceases, etc. As to relinquishment, see above. It does not concern the body, but a growing insight and the experience of nibbaana. Tep: I like this general explanation, Nina. But I feel that it does not apply to the case of the breath-meditation worker doing the first ground in which "long in-breaths and out-breaths" are the object of cognizance. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 27-06-2005 01:15 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > Tep's questions: > > ----------------------- > > In #197 the following passage is not very clear, "..when his greed fades away he abandons greed(raaga), when he causes cessation he > > abandons arising(uppaada), when he relinquishes he abandons > > grasping(aadaana). > > > > When the bhikkhu abandons raaga, does it cease for good? The next sentence indicates that it does not. Hence raaga must be eradicated by nirodha so that it will not arise anymore -- the origin of dukkha is destroyed. Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? > -------- 47102 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest lbidd2 Herman: "It is what it is." Hi Herman, Let's take the hypothetical case of an occasion when you don't like something. Say, you don't like a particular idea. If we examine this experience we might see that an idea is really nothing to dislike. It's merely an idea. But something is definitely disliked, so what is it? Imo, what is disliked is always only unpleasant feeling. But unpleasant feeling is almost never experienced by itself. In the normal course of events we would attach that unpleasant feeling to either the idea or dislike. This is what we do, but it is deluded, not the way things really are. The idea isn't a feeling and dislike isn't a feeling. Feeling is only a feeling, dislike is only dislike, an idea is only an idea. If we can examine our experience like this and experience the components for what they are, it might happen that it would no longer make sense to dislike anything. That's the idea. Larry 47103 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Jon, Nina and all Thanks for your support, Jon. I appreciate having met caring friends through the internet. > I'd like to endorse what Sarah says here about supporting one's > parents. I will reflect on the value of a lot of phone calls. Probably that would help my father more than my mother - presumedly folks with Alzheimer's would benefit more from a physical presence, which I will rarely be able to provide, than verbal communication. (Even at the best of times, my mum was not one to carry on a logical conversation! ) But we'll see what happens. I've been reflecting now and then about why I haven't been more upset about this than I have. Whether it's a characteristic coldness about loved ones, or a kind of wisdom, perhaps accumulated from past lives (since I've always been like this) or both, or what. No conclusions, of course, but one thing is for sure - whenever worry comes up about it, my mind skips ahead away from worrying about my parents to worrying about me and Naomi. For the last few years I've been worrying about out future quite often, so this new sad story has me churning up new sad stories about me and Naomi. The mind churns up so many sad stories, so many worries, so much suffering before the fact. So it seems to me that that wise thing to do is see this sad story as a condition that *might* lead me to be as present as possible for Naomi, as tender, as patient, as appreciative of being together, of communicating lucidly and without crankiness and so on. My natural tendency is to worry about myself and her rather than my parents, so I will not force the mind to go where it doesn't naturally. Yes, the Buddha taught that we should support our parents, that we have a duty to do so, but I don't think it's wise to force things into our lives that don't come naturally. That goes for meditation, and it goes for social obligations too. If we force a sense of duty to arise, it is not kusala, it is just rooted in worry and guilt. If pop psychologists out there are thinking that comes from cold parents, believe me, it doesn't - as far as I can see. I've lived awway from home for a long time and been emotionally detached for a long time, for whatever reason... And I am getting courage from the Buddha's teaching, especially the last few days MN 115, "many kinds of elements" which starts with this stirring paragraph: "Bhikkhus, whatever fears arise, all arise because of the fool, not because of the wise man: whatever troubles arise, all arise because of the fool, not because of the wise man; whatever calamities arise, all arise because of the fool, not because of the wise man." This is in line with the passage from A. Sujin that I quoted last week, which inspired me so. When there is awarness of present realities, understanding (even intellectually) of the Buddha's teaching, there are therefore fewer stories, less fear. This is the way to liberation. I read a story in the New York Times about a battle in Iraq in which a soldier encouraged a gravely wounded comrade to think about his loved ones to take away the pain. That is the characteristic response to fears of death, of disease taking away the loved ones - love them harder, hold on to them tighter. But it can't be that way if we believe that the Buddha taught liberation through detachment. We don't have to be cold or indifferent when we understand people for what they truly are in ultimate terms - we can love them with right understanding, and that makes it easier to let go. This is so easy for me to say, of course. My sad story is just beginning. You and probably most people here have lost a parent or other loved ones - I haven't. But I am at least being inspired and encouraged in a shallow way on this point by the Buddha's teaching. Nina, I mentionned that I was going to type out the transcript of the rest of that conversation about "there is no Nina" but now the pile of tapes has shifted and I have no idea where it is. I listen to them in a random way, so next time it comes up I may type it out. But yesterday I found one of your past posts that encouraged me along the lines described above. You write: "I cannot tell myself not to cling to Lodewijk, that would be unrealistic and insincere. (Phil's note - and I can't tell myself to cling to my parents more than I do.) What really helps is seeing one's own wrong view for a moment: our confusion as to seeing visible object and thinking sad stories on accound of what we see. (Phil's note - I think this applies to any of the doors) Seeing one's wrong view, that is a moment of right understanding. Some rare and brief moments of beginning to understand what seeing is, as different from thinking, that gives me confidence in satipatthana as the only way leading out from dukkha." In the recorded talk I mentioned above, A. Sujin says that we want to go to the left, and to the right. We want to find comfort in conventional realities, and develop our understanding of ultimate realities as well. (This second sentence is just my interpretation what she means by "going right and left." Please correct me if I'm wrong.) We *can* have it both ways, and do have it both ways, but ever-so-gradually wisdom will develop in a way that leads us to follow only the true way, the only way that leads to liberation. But that will take time. We will love people and suffer for it for many lifetimes to come, probably. But in the light of the Buddha's teaching, the suffering will become easier to let go of as our understanding deepens. Well, that's enough of a ramble for today. Metta, Phil 47104 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Trivial Intellectual Pursuit or real Progress... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: _There is these 3 increasing levels of Understanding:_ 1: Intellectual by dhamma-study only. (pariyatti = theory). 2: Training morality & meditation. (patipatti = praxis). 3: Penetration to the irreversible fruits (pativedha). One doing only dhamma-study needs practice to progress. One doing only morality & meditation needs study to progress. Having enjoyed some fruits one needs more study & praxis to progress. : - ] 47105 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:47pm Subject: Diversity of Contacts ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Diversity of Contacts gives many Urges & Searches: There is eye-sensitivity, visual forms, & visual consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is eye Contact... There is ear-sensitivity, audible sounds, & auditory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is ear Contact... There is nose-sensitivity, smellable odours, & olfactory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is nose Contact... There is tongue-sensitivity, tastable flavors, & gustatory consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is tongue Contact... There is body-sensitivity, sensible touches, & tactile consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is body Contact... There is mental-sensitivity, mental states, & mental consciousness. The coincidence of these three elements, is mental Contact... Friends, it is in dependence on the diversity of these elements, that there arises the diversity of perceptions; & in dependence on the diversity of perceptions, that there arises the diversity of intentions; & in dependence on the diversity of intentions, that there arises the diversity of contacts; & in dependence on the diversity of contacts, that there arises the diversity of feelings; & in dependence on the diversity of feelings, that there arises the diversity of desires; & in dependence on the diversity of desires, that there arises the diversity of fevers; & in dependence on the diversity of fevers, that there arises the diversity of searches; & in dependence on the diversity of searches, that there arises the diversity of enthralling needs... How so? Regarding e.g. form; in dependence on intention for form, there arises contact with form; in dependence on contact with form, there arises feeling born of contact with form; in dependence on feeling born of contact with form, there arises desire for form; in dependence on desire for form, there arises fever for form; in dependence on fever for form, there arises the search for form; in dependence on the search for form, there arises the need of form... Such is the emergence of this manifold hunt, urge & wanting! Every second of our lives this bombardment of sensuality creates suffering! Source: The Grouped Sayings on the Elements by the Buddha. Dhatu-Samyutta Nikaya XIV http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 47106 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:08pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 234 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] It is hard to know the characteristic of moha. The Buddha taught us to be mindful of the realities which appear, but we have many moments of dullness. We should learn to see the difference between awareness and forgetfulness of realities. When there is forgetfulness of realities the citta is akusala. Even when there is no attachment or aversion, there can be akusala citta; there can be the type of moha-múla-citta which is accompanied by restlessness (uddhacca)(2). This type is bound to arise very often in between the other types of akusala citta, but we do not realize it. Ignorance is dangerous and extremely hard to eradicate. The sotåpanna sees realities as they are, he has no more wrong view about them, but he has not eradicated ignorance. Ignorance is eradicated stage by stage and only the arahat has eradicated ignorance completely. *** 2) There are two types of moha-múla-citta: one is accompanied by doubt (vicikicchå-sampayutta) and one is accompanied by restlessness (uddhaccasampayutta). ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47107 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Please continue your meditations on this thread....I think they’re important ones:) Before I start, I’d like to suggest that ‘experience’ is possibly being used in different ways. We can talk about: a) experience of an object which is the function of cittas and cetasikas regardless of whether they’re kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya b) experience of an object in a limited sense of referring specifically to the functions of wisdom and awareness when there is a ‘knowing’ of the object c) experience in a conventional sense of ‘I had a good/bad experience’, referring to all sorts of realities and concepts d) experience in a kind of hybrid merged nama/rupa sense, as in ‘the experience’ through the senses. For clarity, here I’m only using it to mean a) above. Now, lots for me to meditate on in your post: ..... --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: Here's another way to look at it: "Dependent on the eye and > forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact". > Notice it doesn't say consciousness experiences forms. .... S: Consciousness is vinnana or citta, ie experience or experiencing. Seeing is a kind of experience. What does it experience? Visible object. That’s why it’s not the same as hearing or any other kind of experience or citta. Even when, as you rightly pointed out, a citta or cetasika is the object of another citta and cetasikas, it still has the same characteristic and fucntion which has to be known. Sidenote: CMAp27, BB note “The Pali word ‘citta’ is derived from the verbal root ‘citi’, to cognize, to know. The commentators define citta in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes an object (aaramma.na”m cintet’i ti citta”m). As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintentii ti citta”m). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamatta”m citta”m).” For this discussion, Larry, please bear with me in following the Theravada renderings. ..... >Here is a > slightly different case: if like experiences visible data, what is the > experience? Like or visible data? .... S: Like is a nama, so it experiences the object which citta experiences. Visible object is a rupa. Rupas don’t know or experience anything at all. Take the rupas which make up a log of wood. They don’t know or care who sits on them, what the temperature is or who stubs a toe on them. Like, on the otherhand, experiences the visible data in its own particular way, quite different from the way dislike experiences the data and different from the way seeing consciousness experiences the data. ..... >It makes more sense to me to say a > visible data experience conditions the arising of a like experience. > Before that happens, a visible datum (?) conditions the arising of a > visible data experience. I would call 'eye-consciousness' a visible data > experience and 'a visible datum (?)' a rupa. ... S: Yes, it starts getting a bit clumsy with datum and data, so I’ll stick to visible object and objects or v.o. here:) Let’s say all these dhammas – the eye-consciousness, the v.o. and the like all have many conditions for their arising. Yes, v.o. is an essential condition for eye-consciousness to arise – with no v.o. impinging on the eye-sense, there will be no eye-consciousness arising. When we’re asleep, there’s no eye-consciousness, for example. There are other essential conditions, such as the eye-sense, the contact and most importantly, past kamma to bring about its result of eye-consciousness. With regard to the ‘like’, the main condition is the accumulation of liking. Even when liking doesn’t arise, the latent tendency is still there in the citta. Liking of this or that colour now conditions more liking in the future. Lobha leads to more lobha. Yes, in this example, if there is no v.o. being experienced now, there cannot be any liking for it (the paramattha dhamma), but because of those accumulations and the big role of sanna (memory), there can still be lots of liking for the idea of that v.o. or colour. ..... > I think a better characteristic for nama is "being an experience", > rather than "experiencing an object". .... S: If we don’t understand that nama experiences an object, there will always be the idea of Self experiencing or Self having the experience, as I see it. Let’s discuss this point more. .... > Second point: I will concede that ignorance is blind. It is blind to the > three general characteristics and to individuality (sabhava). What does > that mean in the case of an ignorant experience of visible data? I would > call it a conceptual experience. .... S: v.o. has sabhava, it’s own characteristic or ‘individuality’ regardless of whether it’s known or not. All day, isn’t v.o. being experienced with ignorance? It is on account of this ignorant experiencing of it that there’s no ‘guarding’ of the sense door(s) and all the usual proliferations and ignorant conceptualizations follow. > ============== > S: "visible object is the paramattha dhamma. I would never say 'blue' is > a > paramattha dhamma. Visible object has the aspect of colour, > however...various colours." > > Larry: I don't understand. Do you mean visible object is several colors > at the same time? > ================= S: Visible object. is just that which is seen. When we look in front of us now at the computer and background – a T.V., plants, table, books etc....it is just v.o. which is seen. However, it’s not a blue/red/green ‘blank’ image. If it were, we wouldn’t be able (or sanna wouldn’t be able’ to form concepts of computers and plants and meaning in the text. Again, pls persist with this question. .... > Larry: I could change my view to "a seemingly not impermanent paramattha > dhamma...." in order to deal with just pure ignorance, without wrong > view. .... S: Ignorance just doesn’t know – no idea or view about a p.d or concept. As soon as there is any idea (like above) it seems more like wrong view. From your Vism#46370 “By its means they see wrongly, or it itself sees wrongly, or it is just the mere seeing wrongly, thus it is ‘wrong view’. Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpreting. Its function is to preassume.....” Of course, only panna can tell when dhammas such as ignorance or wrong view arise, what is what. Definitions only get us so far (as discussed in the ‘motion’ thread). .... > > As for "even if it's not known, the p.d is experienced", this is > trickier than I at first thought. Here's version #3: What is not known > (because of blindness/ignorance) and what is experienced? We could say > visible data is experienced without noticing (experiencing) the > characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and anatta and that experience > is the object of desire (or what conditions the arising of desire). My > basic position is that whatever is perceived inaccurately is a > conceptualization. However, I can't think of a really convincing > argument to support that, so, that's the best I can do. ... S: I got a bit lost in the first part, maybe because I think you’re using a few of the meanings of ‘experience’ mixed together here:): (pls try again if you wish). I agree with your basic position at the end. .... > > One other thought did occur though. It has to do with sabhava which I > translated (above) as 'individuality'. I had previously thought of > sabhava as the particular characteristic that differentiated a dhamma > from all others. The hardness of tangible data, for example. ... S: Yes ... >However, if > ignorance is blind to that, can't experience it, how could there be > attachment or aversion toward hardness? .... S: When we eat an ice-cream, there is ignorance when we taste it, but there’s still desire.Remember that when there’s desire, there’s always ignorance. There’s sth I’m missing in your question – maybe the definition of ‘experience’ again. Let me know if I haven’t ‘got’ it. .... >As a remedy for that, I wonder > if sabhava might mean "not an object". 'Object' is actually a concept > like 'left' or 'up'. It is half of a dualism, the other half being > 'subject'. In other words, 'sabhava' might mean 'simply itself' as > opposed to being part of a relationship. This sounds a little like > satipatthana, but I'll have to meditate on it. ... S: I think so – I mean, I think you’ll have to meditate on as I think you’re losing the plot here. As I said, let’s just stick to the Theravada line for this discussion so that it’s clear (and then of course, you can reject it totally if you don’t agree:)). .... >Also, 'individuality' may > not be the best choice. ... S: I think that’s the least of our problems:) Particular/individual nature or characteristic if you prefer. Really great meditations, Larry... Metta, Sarah ====== 47108 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others sarahprocter... Hi Herman, [*Evan (&Phil)] --- Egbert wrote: > I wander what the citta was when the Buddha knew something about the > mind of an "other"? What does the Abhidhamma say about it? ... S: I don't think we can ever overestimate the extent of the direct knowledge of the Buddha. Whatever he put his mind to, he could know 'directly', not just conceptually. So he'd know the others' minds as dhammas. And as Howard said, we talk about beings and rebirths and so on...but these are conventional terms which 'would take aeons to unpack that figurative speech and replace it with literal speech'. Well, now I quote it, I'm not sure about the aeons...we could simply say, just namas and rupas in a split-second:). I think the rainbow analogy worked well. .... > > Sorry to be so tiresome :-) ... S: Keep up the 'tiresome' and testing of Phil's metta in action:)). Yes, I think I'll take just a teaspoon of honey from time to time, thanks. We'll look f/w to meeting you too. Metta, Sarah *p.s Evan, you've been writing some good posts recently inc. the 'giving up' of toys one to Colette, the soggy wood summary to Phil following his own good quote & summary on it (and other topics too, Phil), and yr excel summary of B.Samahita's sutta post. Perhaps we'll meet you too in Syd or Noosa way? ============================ 47109 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for your feedback. Sarah: I particularly like the description of the two kinds of asceticism in the sutta and how we cannot tell by lifetsyles of mortification and harsh asceticism about the development of wisdom and whether someone is really 'an ascetic' in the deeper sense. James: Why do you particularly like this description? What does it mean to you and your life? Where do you see yourself in this description? Do you see yourself as an ascetic and a Brahmin according to the Buddha's description? If so, why? If not, why not? (I'm looking for a deeper and personal reaction to the sutta. It could be helpful for everyone.) Metta, James 47110 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Tep's Questions nilovg Hi Tep, op 29-06-2005 02:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Nina:... (nirodha). Or contemplation of cessation is contemplation such that > formations cease only and do not arise with future renewal. For this is > Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muccitu-kamyataa) grown > strong...> > Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of > insight knowledge the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna > has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, ... ---------- > Tep: But, isn't the paragraph #197 about the very first ground of the > Anapanasati meditation? And we recall that the first ground's > meditation object is the breath 'body = long in-breaths and out-breaths. > So, I guess the "contemplation of cessation" given by the above Co. > may not apply to the case here. > ----------------------------------- N: paragraph #197: 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no niccato); (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). Is this not insight? Realizing the three characteristics of nama and rupa? Anupassati: this is used for insight. The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.¹ And see para 195: 195. ((f)Through zeal he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle than before reckoned by extent. .. (g) Through gladness... Should he not realize these namas with insight? **** The Visuddhimagga states that even the first tetrad refers to samatha and vipassana. The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read: < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: **** > Nina: ... citta should be contemplated in seven > ways: as impermanent... -------- > Tep: This is an issue that has confused me for a long time. According > to the Paramattha-dhamma, a citta (or consciousness) arises and then > subsides so fast. So, how can the meditator realize its origination and > cessation if not through thinking analytically? How can he contemplate > its impermanence if he does not directly experience its dissolution > himself? ------------- N: Right, it is not thinking. There are several stages of insight. The second stage of tender insight penetrates nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. Conditions for their arising, but paññaa knows this directly. As you say, citta falls away so fast. But in a following process it can be object of insight. We can still call it the present object since processes succeed one another so fast. (For the same reason lobha that has just fallen away can be object of insight in a following process.) Take the first stage of tender insight. Nama and rupa are clearly distinguished from each other through the mind-door. Thus, by insight in different mind-door processes. Cittas succeed one another so fast, one could not count the different processes. It all occurs as in a flash. In the same way insight in different mind-door processes realizes origination and cessation. Do insist if this is not clear yet, it is an important point. When there is more detachment, less holding on, insight turns more to the falling away of realities and it sees their danger. It is paññaa, not we who think about it. -------- Tep: Reading, listening and considering such citta's arising-and- > passing-away phenomenon cannot lead to insight knowledges, I think. > --------------------------- N: We have to begin with the first stage: realizing the difference between nama and rupa. What you just mentioned (listening, etc.) are conditions for direct awareness and understanding. But this is a separate issue, often discussed with Howard, and this discussion may continue. I would concentrate on the text for now. ------- >> Tep: Is it true that when tanha ceases, grasping will cease >> (according to the Dependent Origination)? If it is, then why does >> he still have to relinquish the body in order to abandon grasping? > > Nina: Tanhaa, all forms of it, is eradicated by the arahat, and then there > will be freedom from samsara. Thus, indeed, grasping ceases, etc. > As to relinquishment, see above. It does not concern the body, but a > growing insight and the experience of nibbaana. > > Tep: I like this general explanation, Nina. But I feel that it does not apply > to the case of the breath-meditation worker doing the first ground in > which "long in-breaths and out-breaths" are the object of cognizance. -------- N: More than that. See my quote above of the Visuddhimagga. The anapanasati is part of Mindfulness of Body. Its aim is seeing the body in the body, not a self. This begins already with the first tetrad and leads to arahatship. With regard to the Path of Discrimination: the whole work deals with the development of insight, no matter what chapter you take. The four Discriminations (patisambidhas) are to be realized by the arahat with the highest qualifications. Nina. 47111 From: nina Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168 and Tiika. Conceit. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch. XIV, 168. Conceit. Intro. The Vis. refers to the third and fourth types of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: 3)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, unprompted 4)accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wrong view, prompted These two types which are without wrong view may or may not be accompanied by conceit. Conceit does not arise together with wrong view. It is different from wrong view. The sotaapanna who has eradicated wrong view still clings to the khandhas. He does not take the khandhas for self, but he may cling to the khandhas with conceit, or he may cling to them with lobha-muulacitta that is without conceit. When one finds oneself better, equal or less than someone else, there is conceit. But also when one does not compare onself with others, there may still be clinging to the importance of oneself, and then there is conceit. ****** Text Vis.: 168. (24) With the third [unprofitable consciousness] (24) there should be understood to be associated those given for the first (22), excepting wrong view (xli). ------- N: In that case there are sixteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the third type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. ---- Text Vis.: But here the difference is that there is inconstant [occurrence] of (xliv) pride (conceit). ---------- N: But, the Tiika mentions, with the inconstant cetasika conceit, there are seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompanying the third type of akusala citta. Thus, conceit may or may not arise with citta rooted in attachment that is without wrong view. -------- Text Vis. :That has the characteristic of haughtiness. ------ N: The Tiika explains the term u.n.nati, loftiness which is used in the Dhammasangani § 1117. It refers to the text: ŒI am better¹... and so on. Because of conceit one thinks oneself to be better than someone else, equal to him or less than him. ------- Text Vis.: Its function is arrogance. ------ As to arrogance (sampaggaha), the Tiika explains this as haughtiness, u.n.namo, another term used by the Dhammasangani. It states that also inferiority conceit (omaana), considering oneself less than someone else, should be understood as arrogance. ------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as vaingloriousness. -------- N: Vaingloriousness stands for the Pali: ketukamyataa, desire for a banner. This term is used in the Dhammasangani. Conceit is compared to the flaunting of a flag. -------- Text Vis.:Its proximate cause is greed dissociated from views. N: The Tiika explains that the occurrence of ŒI am¹ conceit seems to be similar to wrong view, and that it arises because of affection for oneself. However, conceit and wrong view do not arise together with the same citta and therefore he said: Œits proximate cause is greed dissociated from views.¹ As to the ŒI am¹ conceit, one may think oneself better, equal or less than someone else. Or one clings to the importance of oneself without comparing. ---------- Text Vis.:It should be regarded as like madness. (25) With the fourth (25) should be understood to be associated those given for the second (23), excepting wrong view (xli). And here pride (xiv) is among the inconstant too. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that with the word Œand¹ (ca), sloth and torpor are implied. Thus, the fourth type of citta rooted in attachment is prompted, like the second type, but it is without wrong view. It may be accompanied by conceit, and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas which are prompted. ******* Conclusion. The affection for oneself is deeply rooted and there are many occasions for the arising of conceit. As we read, the arising of conceit is compared to the flaunting of a banner. We read in the ³Expositor² (II, p. 479): Conceit always arises together with ignorance which hides the true nature of dhammas. It arises countless times but we do not notice it. When there is conceit, there is no wieldiness, not pliancy or adaptibility but instead rigidity of mind. At such a moment one cannot be openminded to the Dhamma, one cannot listen to the Dhamma. Conceit prevents one from being respectful and polite, it can condition harsh, impolite speech. It prevents one from rejoicing in someone else¹s kusala or praise. Any object that appears can be an opportunity for conceit. The ŒBook of Analysis¹ (Vibhanga, Ch 17, §832) enumerates many occasions for conceit, such as erudition, popularity, intelligence, one¹s siila or the attainment of jhaana. We read in the Mahaa-Niddesa ( A.t.tada.ndasutta, Embraced Violence, Khuddaka Nikaaya) about conceit on account of the experience of pleasant sense objects. When one enjoys the pleasant worldly conditions of gain, praise, honour and wellbeing there may be conceit. Or, when one suffers from the unpleasant worldly conditions, the loss of the pleasant worldly conditions, there may also be conceit. One finds oneself important and wonders: Œwhy should it happen to me¹. The experience of pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses is vipaaka, conditioned by kamma. It is a form of lunacy to have conceit on account of such experiences. When one performs a good deed, there are kusala cittas, but there are also likely to be akusala cittas with conceit; one is pleased with oneself and one thinks with conceit about onself as a good person. Or someone believes himself to be humble, but he may take pride in his humility. There is conceit when one feels oneself superior and also when one feels oneself inferior. When someone has committed evil, conceit may arise in the form of self-loathing, self-contempt and self-detestation. That is inferiority conceit (omaana). In the passage of the Mahaa-niddesa quoted above we read further on that conceit can be the object of insight. Conceit arises when one elevates oneself and when one looks down on someone else. Insight realizes the characteristic of conceit when it appears as a type of naama and later on it realizes it as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. Through insight conceit can finally be abandoned. Only the arahat has completely eradicated conceit. ****** Nina. ****** Nina. 47112 From: nina Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:19am Subject: greetings from Rob Ep nilovg Hi Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, all who know Rob Epstein: He said: It is taking a long time... I hope you are well, and thank you for continuing to think of me. Please give my best to everyone.> Nina. 47113 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] greetings from Rob Ep upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/29/05 2:19:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, all who know Rob Epstein: He said: are all happy! I will try to come and say hello soon. Nina, I have not yet finished the book, but I have it in the hands of someone who is a good editor. I hope to get suggestions back soon for improving the structure and putting the final form together. It is taking a long time... I hope you are well, and thank you for continuing to think of me. Please give my best to everyone.> Nina. ============================= Thanks for forwarding this! Should you be writing back to Rob for the list, please let him know that it's great to hear from him and that I'm happy that things seem to be going well with him! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47114 From: "avinduandura" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:17am Subject: Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura I would like to ask for help to clarify some douts which is in my mind about buddha and the buddhism. I know little about the buddhism but have deep experience gained from life.I have to use simple terms as I haven't studied buddhism. When it come to experience the world through 6 sense of bases, eye, ears, body, toung nose are the most reliable methods for me. I never belive on mind as a good tool to sence the world or truth for many reason. for example, we see different but nearly perfect world in dreams. we go to strange place, see things which havent ever seen but every thing fit with each other and feel those are very real.we read paras on books, hear what people are saying but from where those comes from? I dont like to ask this question but I have no other option to solve this matter. If buddha got into the state where he start to see totally different world only by his mind? (friends, very sory to use this words) people believe buddha could activate or use over 70% of brain cells comparing to the amount of less than 5% used by even a scientist. if this kind of a brain made him to see whole doctrine by means of mind only? any body who totally calm their mind may start to see this same world as shown by the buddha. my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. Couls we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? again sory for this posting, iam asking because this thoughts preven me from taking big step in life.. 47115 From: "hudchinson" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:34am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution hudchinson Hello from Toronto, in Canada I just joined and the way my computer displayed the messages, this was the first one I saw. It is probably the most important Sutta I have ever read, it certainly helps me see how important many others are!! So, rather than introduce myself further, I want to ask if anyone has put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous translation and explanation? OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. This certainly looks like a really knowledgable group. I don't have so much to contribute, but, if I may, I have many questions. Thanks Tom. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given below. > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ============== > > From: han tun > Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - > 199. (message # 1111) > > Dear Tep, > > I have put in the Pali words, and broken up the paragraphs for easy > understanding. > > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it > > (1) as impermanent (aniccato anupassati), not as permanent (no > niccato); > (2) as painful (dukkhato anupassati), not as pleasant (no sukhato); > (3) as not self (anattato anupassati), not as self (no attato); > (4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); > (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no > rajjati); > (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); > (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). > > (1) When he contemplates as impermanent he abandons perception of > permanence (niccasannam pajahati), > (2) when he contemplates as painful he abandons perception of > pleasure (sukhasannam pajahati); > (3) when he contemplates as not self he abandons perception-of-self > (attasannam pajahati), > (4) when he becomes dispassionate he abandons delight (nandim > pajahati), > (5) when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raagam pajahati), > (6) when he causes cessation he abandons arising (samudayam > pajahati), > (7) when he relinquishes he abandons grasping (aadaanam pajahati). > > Thus he contemplates the body. > > 198. 'Development': there are four kinds of development (bhaavanaa): > > (1) development in the sense of non-excess of ideas produced therein > (dhammanam anativattanathena bhaavanaa), > > (2) development in the sense of single function of the faculties > (indriyaanam ekarasathena bhaavanaa), > > (3) development in the sense of effectiveness of the appropriate > energy (tadupaga viriya vaahanathena bhaavanaa), and > > (4) development in the sense of repetition(aasevanathena bhaavanaa). > > [Exercise of Mindfulness and Full-awareness] > > 199. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- > distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths (diigham > assaasapassaasa vasena cittassa ekaggatam avikkhepam > pajaanato), > > (1) his feelings (vedanaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa > vedanaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) > (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham > gacchanti); > > (2)his perceptions (sannaa) are recognized as they arise (viditaa > sannaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) > (viditaa upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham > gacchanti); > > (3) his applied-thoughts (vitakka) are recognized as they arise (viditaa > vitakkaa uppajjanti), recognized as they appear (are established) > (viditaa > upathahanti), recognize as they subside (viditaa abbhattham > gacchanti); 47116 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:32am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest ksheri3 Hi Herman, hmmm, the Adams family meets the Munsters huh? ;)) I haven't had the time to read too much here but when I hit a point I went into "babble mode", see below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Consider this post to be drenched in honey before you proceed :-) > > > > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > > ========================================== > > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > > > There is much ignorance about the processes of cittas which > > experience objects through the six doors. colette: no time to trivialize so I'll let it go. Do we realize whether > > there is at this moment seeing, hearing or thinking, or does it > > seem that these experiences occur all at the same time? > > > > In reality only one object can be experienced at a time through the > > appropriate doorway. colette: ya had to do it didn't ya? Where the hell are ya gonna say that I can only experience a single sensation through a single door? Do you mean to actually have me beleive that my eye can only see one thing at a time, that my skin can only feel one thing at a time, etc. <....> > > If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. > > "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote > quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. colette: I disagree! Quantity is a property of experience since numbers denote quantity I can say that x% of my life has been devoted to the study of...? <...> ---------------- To apply quantity > to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. colette: do you mean to equate yourself to Paris Hilton? Man, when you step on toes you sure know where to be steppin'. Further, to objectify > consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an arbitrary > state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. > > In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of > experience. colette: I'll send the re-possessing agents over to your home immediately! You obviously lied on every document you signed from the time you became 18 years of age since you have no accumulation of knowledge, experience. Since you have no knowledge and experience now and according to the above theory, you never did and never will, You therefore are taking all for yourself from myself and you have already capitulated whereas I am not going to go quietly. <.....> In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, > atomic experiencelets. > > I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework > whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about > which is what, the framework and the reality. colette: how can a framework exist since you do not recognize anything as reality, in fact you reject all applications of manifestation to reality. Boy, and I thought I was spacey some times! ;)) With Iddhividha, colette 47117 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:41pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Herman: "It is what it is." > > Hi Herman, > > Let's take the hypothetical case of an occasion when you don't like > something. Say, you don't like a particular idea. If we examine this > experience we might see that an idea is really nothing to dislike. It's > merely an idea. But something is definitely disliked, so what is it? > Imo, what is disliked is always only unpleasant feeling. But unpleasant > feeling is almost never experienced by itself. In the normal course of > events we would attach that unpleasant feeling to either the idea or > dislike. This is what we do, but it is deluded, not the way things > really are. The idea isn't a feeling and dislike isn't a feeling. > Feeling is only a feeling, dislike is only dislike, an idea is only an > idea. If we can examine our experience like this and experience the > components for what they are, it might happen that it would no longer > make sense to dislike anything. That's the idea. > == I accept what you are saying, and I agree with it. In a round about way, and with much less clarity and precision, I am probably aiming for the same target. What I am saying is that, without differentiation, or in reality, there are no components of experience. The components of reality become apparent through action. Differentiation into seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting etc and then differentiating these into pleasant and unpleasant and so forth come about through specific actions. The mindstate, nibbana, which is the aim of Buddhism, is one where there is no differentiation, IMHO. To achieve that mindstates, one (for want of a better shorthand description) needs to cease the act of differentiating. And to be able to do that one needs to come to know that one is differentiating, how one is doing that, and then to stop doing that. There are no actual components of experience without making them, so to speak. Kind Regards Herman > Larry 47118 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Phil, > Hi Herman > > I hope it doesn't feel like I'm pestering you these days. No, to the contrary, Phil, I am very happy to be discussing with you. > > > > Herman: "In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, atomic > > > experiencelets." > > The point is not what Herman, or Larry, or anyone else here thinks > experience is, but what the Buddha taught us about what *He* > experienced in order to achieve liberation. "Rely on yourself", yes, > but the point is to come to understand the Buddha's teaching not form > our own interpretations/explanations. The point of Dhamma is detachment > and liberation, not psychology or the physiology of sensory experience. > Yes, the Buddha most certainly taught that experience is made up of > elemental components (see, for one of many examples, MN 115 which is > entitled "many kind of elements" in BB's translation.) It doesn't seem > to our ignorance-rooted minds that reality is momentary, but that is a > reflection of our ignorance, not reality. > The following is my opinion only, of course. The suttas can be likened to an unordered collection of doctor's notes and prescriptions, found in a surgery after some 40 years of practice. It has been the work of others to collate, study and interpret them. The prescriptions of the Buddha are to specific people, or to groups of people. He prescribed starting with the particular thicket of beliefs the specific patient(s) presented with. Which only makes sense, doesn't it? That experience was composed of elements was certainly a current belief in those days, and the teaching of the Buddha in relation to that was not to expand that and get into ever finer and finer detail about that, but that all condition phenomena have three basic characteristics, and how to get beyond that. There are prescriptions very specifically for people with families, jobs, responsibilities and aspirations in the world, and we would be well advised to follow the prescriptions relevant to us, wouldn't you reckon? see for example Everyman's Ethics http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html Kind Regards Herman > Metta, > Phil 47119 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Colette, It is good to be reading your feedback. Before I respond I might just ask you to reread your post, because it seems there is some confusion as to who wrote what. I was replying to a section out of Nina's book on Cetasikas, posted in a series by Sarah. My tirade doesn't start until "If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe." I will reply properly tomorrow. Toodles, Ms Adams :-) Herman 47120 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I have snipped most of your post in order to focus on the essentials. S: "If we don't understand that nama experiences an object, there will always be the idea of Self experiencing or Self having the experience, as I see it." L: To experience an object is agency. An agent is a doer. A doer is a self. If consciousness experiences an object, consciousness is an agent. It is better to say an object conditions the arising of a consciousness. An object and a consciousness together can only be a concept because a compound cannot be an ultimate. Eye-consciousness plus visible object cannot be an ultimate reality because it is two. Eye-consciousness plus visible object cannot be an ultimate reality experience; it is a conceptual formulation only. S: "Visible object. is just that which is seen. When we look in front of us now at the computer and background – a T.V., plants, table, books etc....it is just v.o. which is seen. However, it's not a blue/red/green 'blank' image. If it were, we wouldn't be able (or sanna wouldn't be able' to form concepts of computers and plants and meaning in the text." L: Hmm. Well, I think visible object is a blue/red/green blank image. What else do we see but merely colours? I think Howard and Nina had a discussion on whether the visible object paramattha dhamma could be a field of colours, but I don't remember what their conclusion was. Just from a logical point of view an ultimate can't have components because then you would have an ultimate of an ultimate. However, I'm not sure this is really practical. Are we to say only the primary colours (red, blue, yellow, + black and white) are paramattha dhammas while all shades of colours are concepts? Regarding what ignorance is ignorant of and what it means to be blind, I couldn't tell if we are in agreement or not. Just to repeat, I think ignorance is ignorant of the three general characteristics but not ignorant of the distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma. For example, if I fail to see a visible object, that is not ignorance. But if I see a visible object but fail to see that it is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self, then that is ignorance. You might ask, what about failing to see my own faults? Is that ignorance or not? At this point I'm leaning toward saying not. Otherwise, anything short of omniscience would be ignorance because I would always be failing to see something; or failure to be conscious of two characteristics at the same time would be ignorance. However, 'blindness' to the intrinsic nature (sabhava) of a paramattha dhamma is common to all consciousnesses and cetasikas except wisdom (panna). I am making a distinction between 'distinguishing characteristic' (which is my own invention) and sabhava. For example, colour is the distinguishing characteristic of visible object. I am not 100% clear on what sabhava is. There must be something in the Satipatthana Sutta that points to the experience of sabhava. Something that all other consciousnesses ignore. Any ideas? [According to Vism., sabhava is not the general characteristics.] Larry 47121 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:56pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Tom {Attn. Sarah and Jon} - I am delighted to know that in your 36-37 years of continuous meditation you never missed even a day. That is a perfect record, Tom. You wrote that you did not have much to contribute to us. Well, the greatest contribution you can make here, in my opinion, is to write about your great meditation experience! I think you might end up with getting many questions from the floor instead of getting a chance to ask us many questions. As far as I know, no DSG members have yet "put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous translation and explanation". But Sarah and Jon might have a different answer. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hudchinson" wrote: > Hello from Toronto, in Canada > > I just joined and the way my computer displayed the messages, this > was the first one I saw. It is probably the most important Sutta I > have ever read, it certainly helps me see how important many others > are!! > > So, rather than introduce myself further, I want to ask if anyone has > put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous > translation and explanation? > > OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal > sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles > over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a > Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. > > This certainly looks like a really knowledgable group. I don't have > so much to contribute, but, if I may, I have many questions. > > Thanks > > Tom. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > > > Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given > below. > > 47122 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest lbidd2 Herman: "The mindstate, nibbana, which is the aim of Buddhism, is one where there is no differentiation, IMHO. To achieve that mindstate, one (for want of a better shorthand description) needs to cease the act of differentiating. And to be able to do that one needs to come to know that one is differentiating, how one is doing that, and then to stop doing that." Hi Herman, I agree, except instead of saying "stop doing that" I would say "doing that stops". One of the biggest (grossest) differences is self and other. Larry 47123 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168 and Tiika. Conceit. lbidd2 Nina: "and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas which are prompted." Hi Nina, Does this mean sloth and torpor resist the prompt? I am prompting myself to wash the dishes but nothing is happening. But that would mean washing the dishes is akusala. Is that right??? Also, I was interested in the difference between self-view and conceit so I looked-up self-view in the Buddhist Dictionary (below). It seems that self-view is defining oneself in relation to one of the khandhas. Larry -------------------------- sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala). There are 20 kinds of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.): (1-5) the belief to be identical with corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations or consciousness; (6-10) to be contained in them; (11-15) to be independent of them; (16-20) to be the owner of them (M. 44; S. XXII. 1). See prec., ditthi, upádána 4. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm 47124 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:54pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 235 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Shamelessness and Recklessness Ahirika, shamelessness or consciencelessness, and anottappa, recklessness or disregard of blame, are two other akusala cetasikas which arise with each akusala citta. In the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 160) ahirika is translated as consciencelessness and anottappa as shamelessness. They are defined as follows: * Herein, it has no conscientious scruples, thus it is consciencelessness. It is unashamed, thus it is shamelessness (anottappa). Of these, ahirika has the characteristic of absence of disgust at bodily misconduct, etc., or it has the characteristic of immodesty. Anottappa has the characteristic of absence of dread on their account, or it has the characteristic of absence of anxiety about them… * The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives a similar definition. The Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní do not give the function, manifestation and proximate cause of shamelessness and recklessness. The Paramattha Mañjúså (Mahå-Tíka), a commentary to the Visuddhimagga, deals with these aspects (1). According to the Paramattha Mañjúså, the function of shamelessness is doing evil without being ashamed of it, and the function of recklessness is doing evil without dreading it. Their manifestation is not to shrink or draw back from evil. *** 1) I have used the Thai translation, given by Ms. Sujin Boriharnwanaket, in her Abhidhamma lectures at the Saket Temple in Bangkok. ***** ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47125 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution sarahprocter... Hi Tom, Welcome to DSG and thank you for introducing yourself. --- hudchinson wrote: > Hello from Toronto, in Canada > > I just joined and the way my computer displayed the messages, this > was the first one I saw. It is probably the most important Sutta I > have ever read, it certainly helps me see how important many others > are!! > > So, rather than introduce myself further, I want to ask if anyone has > put all these parts of the sutta together into one continuous > translation and explanation? ..... S: This study is thanks to a lot of hard work on Tep's part. There is just the Nanamoli English translation of the text as far as I know without any commentary translation. Tep, Nina, Han and others are adding details from the Pali and Thai versions and discussing difficult points. I know they'll be very glad of your input too. Perhaps down the road, there will be a 'continuous translation and explanation'. You may also like to read the series of posts Nina wrote on the overlapping sections on anapanasati in the Visuddhimagga. [See 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG and scroll down to 'anapanasati'2]. ..... > OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal > sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles > over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a > Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. > > This certainly looks like a really knowledgable group. I don't have > so much to contribute, but, if I may, I have many questions. .... S: Interesting and I'm sure you're being very modest. I'll greatly look forward to reading your contributions and any questions. You'll also meet one or two other Canadians in due course....Pls let us know if you need any other help. You may not have seen my post in which I mentioned that the back-up of the entire DSG archives can be used for searches or downloading at dhammastudygroup.org. Metta, Sarah ======= 47126 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? sarahprocter... Dear Friend*, Welcome to DSG too. I hope you find it helpful and enjoyable to be here. --- avinduandura wrote: > > I would like to ask for help to clarify some douts which is in my > mind about buddha and the buddhism. I know little about the > > buddhism but have deep experience gained from life.I have to use > simple terms as I haven't studied buddhism. ... S: Simple terms are fine! .... > > When it come to experience the world through 6 sense of bases, eye, > ears, body, toung nose are the most reliable methods for me. I never > belive on mind as a good tool to sence the world or truth for many > reason. > > for example, we see different but nearly perfect world in dreams. we > go to strange place, see things which havent ever seen but every > thing fit with each other and feel those are very real. ... S: Why do you think it's a 'nearly perfect world in dreams'? What makes you think that these experiences are really seen and felt as opposed to being merely imagined or thought about through the mind? .... >we read paras > on books, hear what people are saying but from where those comes from? ... S: Are you sure that when we dream these aren't tricks that the mind is playing, based on our memories? .... > > I dont like to ask this question but I have no other option to solve > this matter. If buddha got into the state where he start to see > totally different world only by his mind? (friends, very sory to use > this words) people believe buddha could activate or use over 70% of > brain cells comparing to the amount of less than 5% used by even a > scientist. if this kind of a brain made him to see whole doctrine by > means of mind only? any body who totally calm their mind may start to > see this same world as shown by the buddha. .... S: No one can ever develop the same mind knowledge as the Buddha. These powers of concentration and wisdom had to be developed over millions of lifetimes. I don't think we should be concerned with details of scientific brain cells, but we can test out that when there is more awareness developed at the present moment in our ordinary lives, there can also be more understanding of what our present experiences are. .... > > my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. > Couls we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? ... S: We can learn more about a kind of rebirth even now as we talk. Isn't there a birth of new experiences at each moment? This is how it will continue to be at the end of life. So it always comes back to understanding more about the mind and the physical elements at the present moment. ... > > again sory for this posting, iam asking because this thoughts preven > me from taking big step in life.. ... S: Please explain more. You may also like to read messages in 'Useful Posts' in the files section under the headings of 'New to the list and new to Buddhism' and 'Abhidhamma for beginners'. Please ask any questions on any of the posts you read. Metta, Sarah *Please would you kindly sign off with your (preferably real) name so that we know whom to address. Also please make it clear whom you are addressing, even if it's 'all'. ========== 47127 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] greetings from Rob Ep sarahprocter... Dear Nina, yes, thank you too. I often think of Rob Ep and our marathon discussions:).It's kind of you to remind him that we're all still here talking and waiting for him.... Metta, Sarah --- upasaka@... wrote: >> Thanks for forwarding this! Should you be writing back to Rob for > the > list, please let him know that it's great to hear from him and that I'm > happy > that things seem to be going well with him! :-) 47128 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > In the recorded talk I mentioned above, A. Sujin says that we want > to go to the left, and to the right. We want to find comfort in > conventional realities, and develop our understanding of ultimate > realities as well. (This second sentence is just my interpretation > what she means by "going right and left." Please correct me if I'm > wrong.) ... S: (I don't remember the particular talk...but let me add a suggestion). Usually we think the solution to our difficulties is to turn left or right. For example, we might think the answer to helping parents is to decide whether to visit, phone or to send a gift. However, whichever way we turn, whichever offering we make or don't make, it's conditioned already....namas and rupas which are anatta -- not self who decides. We may make all sorts of good intentions, as we've discussed before, but it's jsut thinking and we may or may not act as we plan. It always comes back to the understanding of dhammas which are conditioned now as you stress. [others may like to see 'decisions, dilemmas' in U.P.] Metta, Sarah ..... We *can* have it both ways, and do have it both ways, but > ever-so-gradually wisdom will develop in a way that leads us to > follow only the true way, the only way that leads to liberation. But > that will take time. We will love people and suffer for it for many > lifetimes to come, probably. > But in the light of the Buddha's teaching, the suffering will > become easier to let go of as our understanding deepens. 47129 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: out of social context (Categories) egberdina Hi Sarah, > > It seems to me that any act of differentation, whereby something > > becomes this (khanda) and not that (khanda), is the same act that > > keeps nibbana at bay. If the question "what is happening at the > > present moment" is not at some point put aside, things will keep going > > pretty much the way they have been :-) > ... > S: Would you kindly elaborate. You may be right, but I'm not following > you. > .... == I see no difference in effect between the question "what is happening at the present moment?" and "what is the sensation between the nose and upper lip?" They are leading questions, and they look for and lead to ongoing cycles of existence. There is no need to ask "what is", because "what is" is not open to question, it is real, and gone if you try and grab hold of it. Samsara is the ongoing act of trying to formulate an answer where there is no question. If this is too cryptic, please ask for further clarification. > > from > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html > <...> > > from > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > > > > "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], > > there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being > > no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that > > consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed > > becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed > > becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, > > sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation > > of this entire mass of suffering & stress." > > > > Sorry if the quotes are too long :-) > .... > S: The quotes were fine and these are deep, deep suttas. Please would you > spell out your comments in more detail for me to consider. > ***** There are "things" that lead to becoming, and there are "things" that lead to ceasing. I read the above as being about those things that lead to ceasing. Those things that lead to existence are everywhere, precisely because they lead to more existence. Those things that lead to ceasing are few and far between, because they do lead to ceasing. If there is willingness to dispense with trying to find some reality to investigate then nibbana gets a chance. Kind Regards Herman 47130 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Nina, Han & all)*. Let me join your reflections on the difficult passages by thinking out loud. Thank you all for your posts. When the texts discuss kayanupassana, I understand it refers to awareness of rupas in the body. Does this mean there should be any focus on them? I don’t think so. Sati is anatta and it just depends on this anatta dhamma what is experienced at any moment. Particular rupas are given as examples just like other dhammas such as visible object or feelings or attachment are given in other contexts. So, just now, I was talking about visible object with Larry, but it was just an example. We could just as easily have been using heat or cold as examples. Can we make visible object or heat the object of awareness now? Of course not. Can we even make seeing experience visible object now rather than hearing experience sound? No. As the sutta B.Samahita quoted said, ‘any kind of form whatsoever....feeling etc, whether past, present or future......internal or external...fair or foul...high or low...far or near.....should be seen & understood as it really is......etc’ This is the meaning of the understanding of the khandhas as I see it.....when there is a selection of just a particular kind of dhamma, I don’t see how namas and rupas, let alone khandhas can be clearly understood. It doesn’t help to think along the lines of ‘this one was stressed or discussed in more suttas by the Buddha’. It’s a question of what appears right now without any wishing for it as we read about in the soggy wood simile. And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana through the body-sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. So as soon as the text is referring to vipassana nanas or insights of any kind, it is referring to insights into the true characteristics of these elements – any rupas and any namas appearing only. It is not referring any more to the development of samatha, jhanas and signs of jhanas. Of course it depends entirely on accumulations as to what objects are experienced and known and it depends on the accumulation of wisdom as to whether it’s ready to become detached and to experience dhammas for what they are, to experience the rising and falling away of dhammas and so on. It takes a long time because of all the ignrorance and attachment accumulated as well. No one can stop vipassana nanas arising when the conditions are right either. So we read about aniccanupassana,dukkhanapassana, anattanupassana, norodhanupassana, viraganupassana etc – these are kinds of panna arising. Different aspects of dhammas have to be known before degrees of lobha can be eradicated. So the paragraphs you quoted from the Patisambhidamagga #197-199 refer I think to the principal insights given in Vsm XX,90. (see Connie’s post #46354). ‘Body’ here refers to rupas (in the body) as I explained. In this case (of the one who has attained jhanas with breath as object), after attaining jhanas, the various dhammas have to be understood as Nina and Htoo have explained before, starting with the basic understanding of namas and rupas. So it’s not a set of instructions for following stages of insight or for attaining jhanas with breath as object first. It’s the extremely refined detail of particular processes of cittas which could only be ever known by a Buddha or a select group of his disciples. You asked about the references in the text to ‘...when his greed fades away he abandons greed (raga), when he causes cessation he abandons arising (uppada) etc’. I think this is referring to the following principal insights (quoting from Connie’s post) *Vsm XX,90 - 18 Principal Insights: 1. anniccaa-nupassanaa - abandons perception of permanence 2. dukkhaa-nupassana - abandons perception of pleasure 3. anatta-nupassanaa - ab's percp of self 4. nibbidaa-nupassanaa - (disenchantment) abandons delighting 5. viraagaa-nupassanaa - (fading away) abandons lust 6. nirodhaa-n. - (cessation) ab's originating 7. pa.tinissaggaanupassanaa - (relinquishment) ab's grasping: <....> As you wrote: “in the Thai version “The establishment is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge.” is the same as “Sati becomes anupassana-nana.” ..... You asked about eradication. Here I understand we are talking about kinds of wisdom which are realized repeatedly before lokuttara cittas arise and eradicate defilements. A sotapanna will continue to have such insights arising before becoming a sakadagami and so on. Full understanding of abandoning (pahana parinna) starts at the stage of knowledge of bhanga ~naa.na, after the knowledge of the arising and falling away of dhammas and continues up to magga ~naa.na. (I recommend to you and also Lisa, A.Sujin’s ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, translated by Nina, chapters 2-4 under Part 1V ‘The Development of Insight’.) So it all comes back to the understanding of presently arising dhammas. So we read in the Sammohavinodanii (transl as ‘Dispeller of Delusion’, under ‘Classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness, 1036: “Furthermore, because of the contemplation [S: i.e knowledge or wisdom] in this body[S: i.e rupas] of the body called the collection of all aspects beginning with the characteristic of impermanence which have been handed down in the Pa.tisambhidaa successively in the passage beginning: ‘He contemplates [it] as impermanent, not as permanent (Ps ii 232), the meaning of ‘contemplating the body in the body’ should be regarded thus, too [S: to be realized directly, conditions permitting, after the tender insights have already been attained]. For this bhikkhu who has entered upon the way of contemplation of the body in the body [S; as an example – ‘any kind of form, feeling etc whatsoever], who contemplates the body by way of the seven contemplations beginning with the contemplation of impermanence; who ‘contemplates [it] as impermanent, not permanent; contemplates [it] as painful, not as pleasant; contemplates [it] as non-self, not as self; feels revulsion, does not delight; he causes fading away [of greed], does not inflame it; he causes cessation, does not arouse; he relinquishes, does not cling’ (Ps ii 232) [S; all of course to be understood as referring to conditioned cittas and cetasikas only]. It should be understood that ‘contemplating [it] as impermanent, he abandons the perception of permanence.....pleasure......abandons the perception of self; feeling revulsion, he abandons delight; [his greed] fading away, he abandons greed; causing cessation [S: nirodheti, I understand he realizes the uselessness of nama and rupa, turns away from them, detached towards release], he abandons arousing; relinquishing, he abandons clinging’ (Ps ii232)”.[S: having realized the characteristics of conditioned dhammas, he sees no haven in them of any kind and completely beyond any control. The insight leads to the realization of the unconditioned dhamma]. ..... As I mentioned before, in the conclusion to this chapter in the Sammohavinodani, it stresses that with regard to the 4 satipatthanas, ‘in the prior stage they are obtained in different conscious moments. For by one consciousness only he lays hold of the body [S: rupas in the body]; by another, feelings; by another, mind; by another he lays hold of mental objects [S: dhammas]’. In other words, any form, feeling etc whatsoever that is experienced can be the object of satipatthana. This has been a great meditation for me, Tep. I’m sure it raises further questions and there will be much you may take issue with. Thanks again for your effort and I’ll be glad of any comments or corrections. Metta, Sarah * I wrote this post a couple of days ago before reading Nina’s and your recent posts, but have been having computer problems, so I delayed posting it. I look f/w to reading your posts I've put aside. ==== 47131 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 A sukinderpal Dear Eznir, I just came back from a holiday. ------------------------------------------ > Old Sukinder: Yes, why this and not another. We can't choose to have > awareness, less so on a particular dhamma. > Eznir: We certainly are choosing one thing or another all the time, whether > we like to sleep, sit, stand or walk, even when we are engaged in > some activity or other. If your answer is 'No we can't choose', then > I request you to hold your breath for *ever*! You will find > yourself 'choosing' to breath before long! I'm sure you'd agree with > me on the fact that we are choosing one thing or another all the time. S> In the example you give as in all conventional examples, the object of the citta is a "story" about self and situations. If there is no awareness of this being just `thinking', then paramattha dhammas are not seen. Cetana is a paramattha dhamma which arises and falls in an instant. When we think we are aware of our intentions, in reality many cittas have arisen and fallen away, each with a different cetana and most likely informed by ignorance. And because of this very ignorance, we go away with the impression that we are in control. And if we then believe that we can control our intentions, then this is wrong view. --------------------------------------------- > Eznir: All the time, we are engaged in some duty of our choosing. This duty > may be looking after our children, cooking at home or even simply > doing nothing! Whatever the activity that we are engaged in we are > mindful of it. If not we cannot perform that activity properly. If we > are taking a stroll in a busy street, we are mindful of it. If not we > might meet with an accident, although we may be thinking of something > else while walking! S> And we are never aware of what motivates these apparent choices. And if we have not heard the Buddha's teachings, we will most likely then interpret our experiences wrongly, i.e. wrong view. We will take to be what is not mindfulness to be so. Lobha, craving, is more than enough to assure our survival, which is how samsara perpetuates. ;-) ---------------------------------------- > Eznir: The degree of this mindfulness is a different matter. If we take a > stroll with a romantic notion in mind, then we would be thinking > likewise during the walk. If we take a walk as an exercise after > dinner, then that would be its outcome. If we take a walk with the > intention of doing walking meditation then that too would be its end > result. S> :-) I see the second example (exercise) as the one safest from wrong view. But this is again thinking in terms of situations and here is where one should be wary about `self view' creeping in. Do you see how your last example, i.e. walking meditation, is the one most likely to be conditioned by wrong view? ------------------------------------------- > Eznir: In each of these cases we have to choose, the intended purpose of our > walk. S> We will make choices as per our accumulations. And yes, living in the conventional world, we do have to make choices, otherwise we can't function. But Dhamma is not about conventional situations and practices, but about realities conditioning our experience of these conventional situations and ideas about them. Thinking is never a problem, what one needs to correct is the interpretation of experiences. If we think that we need to "do" this or that to develop sati and panna, then the problem is in the view underlying such a thought. Thinking about avoiding the oncoming traffic is common sense. However when it comes to Dhamma and idea of practice, then knowing thinking as just thinking is the way to go. But instead most people are taken in by the `idea' of a better time, place and activity, and this is not dhamma, but a story about it, informed by lobha and ditthi. ------------------------------------------- > Eznir: Awareness just doesn't simply drop in from the sky, one has got > to cultivate it. In this way we can choose to be mindful so that > awareness, even on a particular dhamma, would develop. S> An actor may appear to be in control of his or her mental states, i.e. he can cry, laugh, express anger etc. very readily. But this is because he has accumulated so much tendency to akusala, that the citta can take any signs and details of sense and mind objects, that through verbal and body, these can be expressed unhindered and almost unlimitedly. Were he to have a genuine moment of satipatthana, do you think that he would not see the vast difference between those moments and this? No, awareness does not `simply drop in from the sky' and yes, `one has got to cultivate it'. But this cultivation is not got from a `self' doing and does not involve the kind of mindfulness as in the conventional examples you have given above. The kind of mindfulness that real satipatthana is, has the effect of showing how `wrong' those other kinds are, including `walking' and `sitting' meditation. Associated with this is the knowledge about the right cause for the right result and recognizing with better understanding wrong view and wrong practices. Pariyatti is seen with greater confidence as being the necessary precondition for patipatti. And when wrong practice is seen as wrong, one is not disturbed by the fact that real practice happens so rarely. Better be patient about one's accumulations than to be lured by lobha with wrong view into following wrong practices. And I believe the following is one such idea; "We can choose to be mindful so that awareness, even on a particular dhamma, would develop". Along with the understanding of any particular dhamma, comes the knowledge that dhammas arise by a complexity of conditions. When one is focused on being `mindful', this aspect of dhammas will never become apparent, because the `self' covers it. I believe also that the more one follows a practice which encourages the idea of `self' and `control', then the possibility of the correct understanding of `anatta', even intellectually, becomes more and more remote. And obviously, so too the understanding of anicca, dukkha and most of Dhamma. Must go now, will continue tomorrow. Metta, Sukinder 47132 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Sutta sarahprocter... Hi James & all, [Mahasihanada Sutta, DN8, quotes from Walshe transl] --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: I particularly like the description of the two kinds of > asceticism in the sutta and how we cannot tell by lifetsyles of > mortification and harsh asceticism about the development of wisdom and > whether someone is really 'an ascetic' in the deeper sense. > > James: Why do you particularly like this description? .... S: Because of the stress again on the fact that it's not the lifestyle itself, but the wisdom and development of the path that counts: "The situation occurs, Kassapa, that I see one practiser of mortification.....at the breaking-uo of the body, in a place of woe, a baleful state, a place of destruction, in hell. Again, I see one practiser of mortification.....arising after death in a good place, a heavenly state. Again, I see one who practises little austerity....arising in a state of woe...Again, I see one who practises little austerity.....arising after death in a good place, a heavenly state. Since I can see as it is the arising, the destiny, the death and re-arising of those ascetics, how could I disapprove of all austerities, and censure and blame all those who lead a harsh life of self-mortification?" later "Kassapa, there is a path, there is a course of training, whereby one who has followed it will know and see for himself: 'The ascetic Gotama speaks at the proper time, what is true, to the point - the Dhamma and the discipline.' What is this path.....? ....the Noble Eightfold Path...." .... >What does it > mean to you and your life? .... S: It's a reminder to not judge by outer appearances....similar to the message I mentioned in other suttas with regard to living alone whether in the city or forest. Another quote: "... 'It is hard to understand an ascetic or a Brahmin.' But, Kassapa, when a monk develops non-enmity, non-ill-will and a heart full of loving-kindness and, abandoning the corruptions, realises and dwells in the uncorrupted deliverance of mind, the deliverance through wisdom, having realised it in this very life by his own insight, then, Kassapa, that monk is called an ascetic and a Brahmin." .... >Where do you see yourself in this > description? Do you see yourself as an ascetic and a Brahmin > according to the Buddha's description? If so, why? If not, why not? > (I'm looking for a deeper and personal reaction to the sutta. It > could be helpful for everyone.) .... S: to be honest, I'm not sure that I see myself or think about myself when I read descriptions. I think that when there are moments of understanding and other wholesome states, however weak, we are learning to become an ascetic and a Brahmin. When there's ignorance, however, (most the time), then we forget all about what really matters in life. When there are moments of wrong view arising, we assume importance in aspects of life or practice (e.g asceticism/non-asceticism) which are of no importance at all. As I mentioned to Tep, much of the Sammanaphala Sutta is repeated in the second half of this sutta, but I haven't re-read this part. I was just struck by the first few paragraphs this time and am grateful for your selection. Do you have any further comments yourself? Does anyone else have a sutta they've selected to share with us? Metta, Sarah ======== 47133 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: One Sutta buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for your timely response. I just wanted to make a comparison between your approach to the dhamma and my approach, because I can see that they are quite different (almost completely opposite as a matter of fact). I am just going to make some observations without drawing any concrete conclusions: Sarah: to be honest, I'm not sure that I see myself or think about myself when I read descriptions. James: Thanks for being frank. I wonder if your approach is better or if a more personalized approach is better (such as I follow). You see, when I read a description I always try to evaluate where I might fall in that description. Then, I know what I have accomplished and what more needs to be accomplished (or what I am unsure about). It seems to me that your approach is more academic and philosophical- like 'this is quite interesting and good to know but it doesn't necessarily apply to me." It is no wonder that you don't see a 'practice' within Buddhism other than study, because nothing in the dhamma applies to you directly within your mode of thinking. Sarah: I think that when there are moments of understanding and other wholesome states, however weak, we are learning to become an ascetic and a Brahmin. James: First, I notice how quickly you change from a personalized view to a general view. I didn't ask anything about other people, only you. Yet, you cannot seem to talk about yourself as an individual without including everyone in the description (remember my past observations about your use of the royal "we" when referring to yourself? ;-). Secondly, you use the term 'learning' to relate to the process of becoming an ascetic and a Brahmin. Does one really learn to become enlightened? Is learning a part of the Noble Eightfold Path? Or is it more an 'unlearning' of unskillful thoughts and habits? Personally, I view the process to enlightenment as unlearning more than learning- this is another thing which separates our approaches. Sarah: When there's ignorance, however, (most the time), then we forget all about what really matters in life. When there are moments of wrong view arising, we assume importance in aspects of life or practice (e.g asceticism/non-asceticism) which are of no importance at all. James: Again, you are talking in a generalized way about everyone when I asked you only about yourself. Of what you have written, I agree and disagree with it- it depends on who we are talking about. Just as the Buddha said in DN 8, it is not possible to generalize to all people when it comes to the dhamma, and yet you seem to be generalizing to all people. This is why I cannot relate to much of what you explain. I'm just thinking outloud; I haven't reached any firm conclusions. Metta, James 47135 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:16am Subject: The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Wise Company gives good Advantage: The blessed Buddha on Noble Friendship: I am a friend and helper to all, I am sympathetic to all living beings. I develop a mind full of love & one who always delight in harmlessness. I gladden my mind, fill it with joy, and make it immovable and unshakable. I develop these divine states of mind not cultivated by simple men. I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. AN II 72 A friend who always lends a hand, a friend both in sorrow and joy, a friend who offers good counsel, a friend who sympathizes too. These are the four kinds of true friends: one who is wise, having understood, will always cherish and serve such friends just as a mother tends her only child. DN III, 188 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived on the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness, I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in such silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 And how does a bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on seeing a dearly favourite person! Even so do he extend loving-kindness to all beings in all directions, as above so below. Abhidhamma Pitaka: Appamañña-vibhanga Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance such release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... Itivuttaka 27 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello from Toronto nilovg Hello Tom H, Welcome here. It is always a good idea to ask questions, any time. Nina. op 29-06-2005 18:34 schreef hudchinson op tomanderson@...: > Hello from Toronto, in Canada > OK, just a little about myself: I began my first formal > sitting/meditating practise in 1968 and, although changing styles > over the years, haven't missed a day! Presently I sit with a > Theravada group practising in the Thai Forest Tradition of Ajahn Chah. 47137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Larry, op 30-06-2005 05:49 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas > which are prompted." L: Does this mean sloth and torpor resist the prompt? ------- N: As we have seen, kusala cittas and akusala cittas (but not all) can be without prompting or prompted. I quote: The Co. to the ³Abhidhamattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 15) explains unprompted as And it explains prompted as . Unprompted: no hesitation. It is similar in the case of akusala cittas rooted in attachment. Unprompted and prompted tells us something about the nature of the cittas. It is understandable that sloth and torpor if they arise, accompany cittas that are not active, sluggish. ----- L:I am prompting myself > to wash the dishes but nothing is happening. But that would mean washing > the dishes is akusala. Is that right??? ----------- N: You are speaking of a whole situation, a time during which countless cittas arise ands fall away. There are not akusala cittas rooted in lobha and dosa all the time, there may be many cittas that have moha as their only root and of these it is not said that they are prompted or unprompted. Besides, you may be meditating on the Abhidhamma while washing the dishes with kusala cittas. ***** L: Also, I was interested in the difference between self-view and conceit > so I looked-up self-view in the Buddhist Dictionary (below). It seems > that self-view is defining oneself in relation to one of the khandhas. Quotes: > sakkáya-ditthi: 'personality-belief', .... There are 20 kinds > of personality-belief, which are obtained by applying 4 types of that > belief to each of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.) ------ N: This is explained by Ven. B.B. in 'The Root of Existence' (p. 9) Co to the Muulapariyaaya sutta: here it is formulated slightly differently: 1: the ego is identified directly with them 2:or seen as their possessor 3; as their container 4 as their inner nucleus. The Expositor: II, p. 456, illustrates this with similes. 1: just as the flame of a lamp and the colour of the flame, they are one. 2: as having matter, as a tree has a shadow. 3: taking the immaterial to be the self, he views matter as in the self, like scent in a flower. 4. taking the immaterial to be the self, he sees the self as in matter, like a gem in a casket. **** Nina. 47138 From: nina Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Commentary to the Path of Discrimination. nilovg Dear friends, The Commentary to the Path of Discrimination, the Saddhammappakaasinii: explains that the yogi who has transcended doubt while cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and soullessness, to the mind and body together with the conditions. This is similar to the Co to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta (the Way of mindfulness). But the Saddhammappakaasinii elaborates more on the stages of vipassana: the yogi has to overcome the imperfections (upakilesa) of vipassanaa, beginning with illumination (obhaasa). The Co. then explains that he realizes the stage of vipassanaa that is the arising and falling away of naama and ruupa, the stage that is seeing the danger of them, etc. and then he realizes the four successive stages of enlightenment. He is worthy of the greatest honour in the world of men and devas. The Co. states that the development of anapanasati samaadhi, beginning with the counting of the inbreaths and outbreaths finds its accomplishment in vipassanaa. ***** The text of the Path of Discrimination, § 197: 4) he becomes dispassionate (nibbidati), does not delight (no nandati); (5) he causes greed to fade away (virajjati), does not inflame it (no rajjati); (6) he causes cessation (nirodheti), not arising (no samudeti); (7) he relinquishes (patinissajjati), does not grasp (no aadiyati). ** The Co explains more about viraaga, nirodha and patinissaga. Viraaga: detachment, there are two meanings: the vanishing and dissolution of conditioned dhammas and nibbåna. It states that contemplation of viraaga (viraaganupassanaa) refers to vipassanaa and magga by means of which those two meanings are realized. Nirodha, extinction is explained in the same way. Viraaganupassanaa and nirodanupassanaa are among the eighteen principal stages of vipassanaa. As to relinquisment, this also has two meanings as we have seen. As we see more often, the Co. has several methods of explaining terms. It states: aniccanupassanaa refers to tender insight and viraaganupassanaa refers to principal insight. The latter has more strength. As to contemplation of relinquishment, this refers to vipassana that has become very powerful, it is near enlightenment, near the arising of magga-citta. ***** Nina. 47139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? nilovg Hi Avinduandura, In understanding the different consciousnesses that change at each moment and succeed one another, you come to understand yourself and this life. When understanding of the present moment is fully developed nibbana can be attained and then doubt about the future is also eradicated. This is a long process. We should first discuss what is real at this moment. Nina. op 29-06-2005 17:17 schreef avinduandura op avinduandura@...: > my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. > Could we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? 47140 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > .... > > are you going to take a look at the response i posted to 'discipline' > > or at least the area where i try to see if we cant get some > > correlation in our intentions before re-starting studying abhidhamma, > > what approach to take, etc? > .... > S: The main differences as I see it are, arising just from this post of > yours: > > a) you are 'trying to walk the path, thinking of sotapanna and 7 lives', > trying to avoid any behaviour which you think is inconsistent with how you > imagine a sotapanna would live No. That just came to mind. The discipline I am talking about is basically the lower part of the 'gradual training.' That is, engaging onesself in a spiritual discipline, according to the doctrine. For example (one among many), DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, we read about the moralities the practitioner undertakes under the heading: (The Lesser Section on Virtue) We read that one puts down sword and stick, not harming any living being, being compassionate, one abandons stealing, taking only what is given, one abandons all types of wrong speech and speaks meaningful, helpful, kind words. All of this adds up to a discipline that one can follow in their life. It is something I have deviated some from, due to conditions from within and without, -however-, when one reads the sutta on advice to laypeople, Sigolavada Sutta, DN20, how the four quarters are covered in a particular discipline for the laymen who wants to live a life at peace with his coworkers, friends, and family, and be 'good,' even resulting in a heavenly rebirth. We can follow this code of discipline to create peace with our family and so on, even if we do not want the heavenly rebirth. For example, as has been suggested, I have read some of the Talmud as a first step in carrying out the family tradition (Judaism), and this new, freshness, especially the parts on virtue, really let me see how I could be disciplined from all angles. It's a way of life. This is what I once had with the dharma, only the discipline was somewhat different, and now, I need some new freshness in to really be *in* that discipline, to open up all the doors and act in a good manner. To help you understand, for example, during the Northeast blackout a few years back, my father was coming into the hallway and speaking about the previous blackout some decades ago, and it was just a piece of idle chatter. I knew that idle chatter just leads to suffering, so I let it be and did not engage him. With the laypersons code of discipline, I might try to rectify the relationship further by carrying out the family tradition, helping him out when he neds help, basically creating a more proper father-son relationship, having him think of me less as a 'friend,' which he has called me in the past. There are also academic disciplines, and probably even some more that I can't think of off the top of my head. It's a way of molding one's behavior to a certain ideal and not just noticing this or that in an undisciplined life. > ... > On the other hand, I'm not interested in any kind of 'imitation', but > rather in knowing the present tendencies and dhammas arising. > ***** > b) as you admit, you 'force practise' > .... > S: On the other hand, I see this as Self-pursuit > ***** > c) You have the idea that you can choose to 'walk away' and 'pursue "deeds > of merit" ' > ... > S: Again, I see this as a lack of confidence in understanding conditioned > dhammas and the strong idea of 'control' as leading to many of your > difficulties. I think you mentioned that the serious problems only started > after your interest in Buddhism began. Serious problems in practising Buddhism began after my honeymoon ended. If I follow the teachings correctly, as I have in the past, (will I be able in the future?) problems can fade away. I felt established in the discipline even as recently as two nights ago, walking home to my house with a friend, but when I got home I did not know how what was proper to do on the computer.. the part about entering jhanas or bringing mindfulness to the fore, would be very difficult for me as I've not been able to meditate well since a time in the not so distant past. But the rest was there. I'm telling you, discipline is good! > ***** > d) I think you see 'discipline' and 'self-discipline' very much in terms > of particular activities you pursue (or don't pursue) > ... > S: Whereas I see them very much in terms of very momentary cittas and > cetasikas, regardless of the activity at the time. Kusala and refraining > from akusala can arise anywhere, anytime -- even whilst having fun with > your friends. OK. I'm still interesting in knowing cetasikas no matter what my lifestyle. If I decide seeking a greater happiness is better for me than trying to have some 'fun' with my friends, I would still like to know them, and it should make no difference. > .... > e) in brief, there are lots of 'shoulds' and 'should nots' in the way you > see the practise and discipline. > ... > S: Again, I think that when we appreciate the complexity of conditions a > little more (even in theory), we can see why the present dhammas have to > be as they are and not another way. The Abhidhamma really helps a lot in > daily life. > > Pls let me know whether we are getting any 'corelation in our intentions' > here and any comments you have on our approaches to re-starting our > Abhidhamma studies. Any further questions or clarifications needed? Well, I guess the first question I should ask is, how are we only aware of one reality at a time, as they arise, if all realities are constantly arising and falling? Is it simply because citta can only know one object at a time, or is it because we have to wait for some object of consciousness to become 'prominent?' And if so, how/why does this occur? > **** > > > > if not just let me know, this week may be a turning point in my life > > and i'm not sure how i'm going to fit my practise into it, or for that > > sake the discipline at all. > > let me know. > > pz, > ... > S: Please tell us about it. It sounds interesting and maybe good > indications that your life is slowly returning to 'normal'??? As your > understanding in the Dhamma grows, you'll find the practise and discipline > fit into your daily life more and more easily, regardless of the > activities you are following. How is the computer programming going? > Perhaps you have a job? > > Let me know how we're doing here. I've gotten a book on Linux Kernel Development (title is the same), and am doing fairly well with that. It seems the material is not too difficult for me, it's just a matter of reading it properly and within a healthy mindset. I also have a (very) late book, I haven't returned to my school's library (I'm not enrolled right now, FYI, but I may go back in the future) known commonly as the 'dinosaur book' because it has dinosaurs on the cover. It is about operating systems design and is widely regarded as a good title. I'd like to get back into programming, and it seems a new avenue has opened up and may allow me to do so. Further, I feel even if I want to 'let go' of the spiritual aspect of life for now, and get back to my old interests, the spiritual aspects of my life still become prominent and it would behoove me to tend to them, try to create some kind of balance. Like an earlier thread wrote, the Buddha's teachings go against the grain, so I should still try not to get very enmeshed in worldly life, but be mindful of realities without their worldly context when possible. I can't think of any good examples of this, besides maybe abstaining from idle chatter sometimes, and eventually, when I feel more comfortable with it, being mindful of all daily activities and carrying meditation with me throughout the day. Sorry for the long delay before the reply. Be well, Sarah. -A.L. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 47141 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Al, > > Also, is this extract I posted the other day from 'Cetasikas' relevant to > our discussion on 'Discipline' and intentions for study, would you say? > ..... > >Part 111, Akusala Cetasikas - Introduction contd] > > Right understanding of the danger and ill effects of akusala can > condition kusala citta. But shortly after the kusala cittas have > fallen away, akusala cittas tend to arise again and at such moments > we have no confidence in wholesomeness. We may, for example, > speak harsh words to someone else and when the moments of > anger have fallen away, we cannot understand that we behaved > in such a bad way. We may wonder how we can be such a > different person at different moments. > > In reality there is no self who is at one moment kusala and at another > moment akusala. There are different types of citta which arise because of > their own conditions. Sometimes kusala citta arises but more often akusala > citta arises. There is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala > citta.< What about sila, dana, and bhavana, and the ten wholesome actions? Can't we look to practise these to create more wholesomeness for our welfare and happiness, at the same time as we try to understand akusala? Peace, A.L. > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 47142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries nilovg Hi Tep, perhaps some Q were answered already in my last post by the commentaries. op 29-06-2005 01:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:> > Tep: Do you personally believe that the examination of the body (rupa) > through "thinking" such and such <.. ... 'Supported by what is respiration? > Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the coarse body > [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four Great Primaries > etc.. ...> can be done alone without having to first "emerge from the > absorption"? If so, would that kind of "thinking" lead the 'assasapassasa > kammika' toward the various insight knowledges as described in the > Breathing Treatise, and toward arahantship as stated by the Co.? _____ N: Not by thinking, but by insight. The yogavacara develops jhana, emerges and then develops insight. --------- T:I ask > this question because you yourself have rejected the necessity of > absorption(jhana) as the basis for wisdom development (to eradicate > asavas). ----------- N: The texts deal with someone who is able to attain jhaana by means of anapanasatisamaadhi. The question whether jhaana is necessary for everybody to become an arahat is another issue. See the many posts in the archives. As I said, for now I prefer to concentrate on the texts of the Patisambhidamagga and its commentary. ------- > Tep: Another part of the Co. is :"The worker in absorption, namely, he who > contemplates upon the factors of absorption, also thinks thus: Supported > by what are these factors of absorption? .... And the yogi who transcends doubt thus, while > cultivating insight, applies the three characteristics of impermanence, > suffering and soullessness, to the mind and the body together with > conditions and gradually reaches arahantship". .... This is a standard way for transcending > doubts by means of samatha and vipassana of nama-rupa. ------ N: See the Co I rendered, this text is no problem. Actually, there is the hindrance doubt which is suppressed by samatha, and by insight doubt about nama and rupa is eliminated. NIna. 47143 From: "hudchinson" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:18am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution hudchinson --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Tom {Attn. Sarah and Jon} - > > I am delighted to know that in your 36-37 years of continuous meditation > you never missed even a day. That is a perfect record, Tom. Hi, Tep I really sound full of myself, don't I! It really came out all wrong. As for "great" experiences, well, my experiences are quite ordinary, I assure you. The Mahasatipatthana sutta is really important to me, I never cease discovering yet another thing I had missed, so I am very interested in seeing all the parts/comments/vocabulary drawn together. 47144 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Dear Dan, Thanks. You stated, "... I think you are right that to fully discuss conceptions of anatta at the deepest level in two different traditions is beyond any of us. However, considerations at more modest levels is certainly possible, and, I think, of value. " I would agree, but what I meant was: When an individual reaches the level of the presently selfless, in either religion, the development of insight (for that individual) is not an issue, because to reach that level you must already have great insight. And, as for us who are training and learning how to reach that level, it is of great value to explore ... because we still need the insight. What I really was trying to address was Jon saying: {... If not, then I wonder how similar the two really are. Could the study of a teaching that did not talk about dhammas be of any benefit as far as the development of insight is concerned?} What I was getting at is if the goal is selflessness, and both religions seem to reach it, then we should not be limited/blinded by OUR view of Dharma. ................................................................. You also said: {I've found that at the most superficial levels, Christian and Buddhist thinking is very similar ("Be good"), at less superficial levels they are very divergent ("Salvation through Christ" vs. "Eightfold path"), and at moderate depth they are similar (lobha/moha/dosa as unwholesome roots; anatta, anicca, dukkha of specific dhammas that arise). But at the deepest levels, I sense that they are once again divergent ("salvation" and "enlightenment" are quite distinct). I can't offer anything of value beyond speculation at the deeper levels, and I don't anticipate *pretending* to discuss those issues in any substantial way. [I can see Jon and Sarah objecting strenuously at this point -- "Dan, you silly! Anatta, anicca, dukkha are deep, DEEP, and not 'moderately' deep!" I agree, but they can be known in part before enlightenment.]} I think your comparison is correct. The Eightfold path is about developing peace and an end to suffering. Goodness is only a step, and not an end all. Salvation through Christ has nothing to do with ending suffering. It has more to do with enduring suffering. It tries to empower people to do good, especially under extreme circumstances --- e.g., Jesus on the cross ("Father forgive them because they don't know what they are doing"); all the Apostles were murdered and die unpleasant deaths (I think) yet they held to the principle of Love even your enemies; the early Christians were fed to wild animals, yet more became Christians (refused to change their belief); ... In a nut shell: Christianity is about developing a sense of Universal Love that endures all trials and tribulations. The Apostles stated that they even pray for long periods of suffering. This is the opposite of what Buddhist do or develop (i.e., pray for). So why even bother to compare the two? Maybe you will uncover how one religion can help you succeed at the other. Maybe they compliment each other, so their differences become unimportant. Maybe they will ultimately get you to the same place. We will never know unless we start to compare them, or look at them closely. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 27 June, 2005 07:07 Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > CharlesD > ----- Original Message ----- 47145 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (wasRe:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 dacostacharles Hi Nina, I was commenting on Phillip post that stated: {... I would say that you are going too far by saying that clinging is all about views/beliefs. It's so insidious, so prevalent. All that clinging to midly pleasant feelins, shifting away from unpleasant ones. Are beliefs/views that prevalent? maybe I misunderstand what "views" means.} I miss read his post, I thought he was limiting clinging to covering only views/beliefs. So I was trying to define the term as "not letting go ..." ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 27 June, 2005 10:38 Subject: Re: [dsg] Craving, clinging and dependent origination (wasRe:Vism.XIV,161 Vism.XIV,162 Hi Charles D, Please could you try again, I did not understand your Q. Is there anything I can help with? Nina. op 26-06-2005 16:53 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > Hi all, > > Just jumping in with out much clue as to what was already said. > > Clinging is not letting go. It does not matter, it could be a belief, an > apple, a feeling, ... > > This does however imply that you are already holding on to what ever it is. 47146 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Touche! Bravo! Encoure, encoure. ksheri3 Hi Herman, Lovely reply, it makes me feel so wonderfully accepted and welcomed as to my odd, out-there, opinions. Thank you sir. Yes, I recognized it during my reply, but luckily I have the adage in my Bat-Belt that: Speed Kills. Thus I was resigned to accept the fault for the misconstruction of the post if, by chance, someone had noticed. I can see I'm in good company. In my "googling" the net I've noticed Nina's name quite prolifically concerning this Buddhism and was getting ready for next wk. to possibly begin chipping away at her concepts of Vipissana, I still look forward to it. Right now I'm taking a break from Abhidhamma in Derrida and I've found William James, The Stream of Consciousness, so I think I'll be a little non-Buddhist this weekend. A friend from Sri Lanka mentioned that taking breaks from profound meditations is a good thing however I already know these things. For instance getting too close to a concept that I lose sight of what it is I'm looking at, or being entangled in many numerous ways to rupa which here I refer to as the trappings manifestations of life, humanity. I look forward to your reply. toodles, colette p.s. please tell Spot that I'll be around about Midnight and maybe have a morsel for him to nibble on. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > It is good to be reading your feedback. Before I respond I might just > ask you to reread your post, because it seems there is some confusion > as to who wrote what. > > I was replying to a section out of Nina's book on Cetasikas, posted in > a series by Sarah. > > My tirade doesn't start until "If the foundation of a building is > flawed, the entire building is unsafe." > > I will reply properly tomorrow. > > Toodles, Ms Adams :-) > > > Herman 47147 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. ksheri3 Hi Nina & Larry, Lets hope this works and I don't make too much of a dolt out of myself. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 30-06-2005 05:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Nina: "and also by sloth and torpor which only accompany akusala cittas > > which are prompted." > > L: Does this mean sloth and torpor resist the prompt? > ------- > N: As we have seen, kusala cittas and akusala cittas (but not all) can be > without prompting or prompted. colette: I've read the definitions over and was wondering where I was going to place this reply. To myself I think we should look at the potentiality for something "outside" of the person being prompted. For instance my take on what's commonly bantied about is that people are doing all the prompting and they're trying to find a way to control what is and is not prompeted. They may see that by chance, yes, I say that chance does play a roll in the existance of sentient beings, that by chance sloth and torpor were prompted already and were arising when by chance, a chance meeting, Larry was met by a tangent perception which he could control after he had come into contact with it. If he never had come into contact with this "sloth or torpor" then the best he could have done would be to influence it such as in making waves so that a pc. of paper floats in a certain direction. The blessing of coming into contact with these negatives is that now he has the ability to manipulate them as he wants to or as he has been conditioned, programmed, to do. ---------- > I quote: > > The Co. to the ³Abhidhamattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 15) explains unprompted as > And it > explains prompted as . > Unprompted: no hesitation. > It is similar in the case of akusala cittas rooted in attachment. Unprompted > and prompted tells us something about the nature of the cittas. > It is understandable that sloth and torpor if they arise, accompany cittas > that are not active, sluggish. sorry but time forces me to leave now. I'm getting greater confidence in being able to interact with someone as up on Buddhism as Nina is. thanx toodles, colette 47148 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Hi Nina and Colette, I still don't get it. Is the meaning that akusala prompting is slothful and torpid? Are all prompted unwholesome consciousnesses slothful and torpid. If I tell Colette to rob a bank, were is the sloth and torpor in that? I don't see how sloth and torpor could be prompted. They seem to arise quite spontaneously for me. Is it that prompted unwholesome activity is perceived to be easy (and therefore slothful) compared to wholesome activity? If I tell Colette to rob a bank the sloth and torpor are mine, not Colette's. If I robbed a bank without any prompting there would be no sloth or torpor. This is very confusing. I am very familiar with sloth and torpor but I don't see the "prompted" aspect. Larry 47149 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:37pm Subject: Vism.XIV,169 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 169. (26) Those given for the first (22), excepting happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (26). (27)And as with the fifth (26), so with the sixth too (27); but the difference here is promptedness and the inconstant [occurrence] of stiffness-and-torpor. (28) With the seventh (28) should be understood to be associated those given for the fifth (26), except views (xli); but pride (xliv) is inconstant here. (29) With the eighth (29) should be understood to be associated those given for the sixth (27), except views (xli); and here too pride (xliv) is among the inconstant. 47150 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Hi again, Larry: "If I tell Colette to rob a bank the sloth and torpor are mine, not Colette's." L: Sorry, this isn't right. The prompted consciousness is the one that is slothful and torpid, not the prompting consciousness. If a salesman prompts the arising of desire in a customer, that desire is with sloth and torpor. How so? Larry 47151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution buddhistmedi... Hi, Tom - Thank you for the reply. I understand your humbleness and appreciate it. Tom: > > The Mahasatipatthana sutta is really important to me, I never cease > discovering yet another thing I had missed, so I am very interested in > seeing all the parts/comments/vocabulary drawn together. Tep: Then you have come to the right place! Especially, Nina's contribution by means of the detailed cross-referenced Commentaries on related subjects should satisfy your heart's desire. Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hudchinson" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Tom {Attn. Sarah and Jon} - > > > > I am delighted to know that in your 36-37 years of continuous > meditation you never missed even a day. That is a perfect record, Tom. > > > Hi, Tep > > I really sound full of myself, don't I! It really came out all wrong. > As for "great" experiences, well, my experiences are quite ordinary, I > assure you. 47152 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:37pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise /commentaries buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I appreciate your message # 47138 which, I think, is a good complement to the Breathing Treatise. Thank you for writing another message (#47142) to respond to my earlier concerns; I do not have any follow-up questions at this point. Let's work together to fill as many gaps in the Breathing Treatise as possible. We do not have to agree on everything in order to effectively work together, I guess. Sincerely, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > perhaps some Q were answered already in my last post by the commentaries. > 47153 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 B sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Continuing from the last post: --------------------------------------------- > Old Sukinder: My point however was to show the danger of lobha and moha > in taking us the wrong way. In a day, almost never are we on the > Middle Path, it is so illusive that we are all the time leaning > either on the eternity side or the annihilation side. And it is > avijja which puts us there and it is lobha supported by ditthi which > can then lead us astray, away from the middle path. > > Eznir: Exactly! All the more reason why we should choose to cultivate > mindfulness and awareness. S> Only with the arising of panna can the right and wrong way be distinguished. The problem is that we take to be sati what is not, and so the path of practice then taken is one that is a reflection of such misconception. --------------------------------------- Eznir: It is only then that with directed thought > and sustained thought we nurture the conditions for panna to arise. > When ever the hindrances that you mentioned above arises one must be > aware that they have arisen. Only then does panna know that it is a > mind with hindrances and how it arose. But why should we know how > hindrances arise? So that panna will know the cause & conditions for > its arising. S> Thinking is only as good as the `understanding' behind it, this is why it is stressed that panna leads the way. Lobha must appear to sati and panna, only then can it be known. We can `think' about it, but this is different from satipatthana, whereas if the thinking is seen with wisdom, then that would be a moment of right practice. Understanding dhamma on the conceptual level is pariyatti; the stress is on "understanding" and not "thinking". And understanding correctly, one does not then go about engaging in practices involving `self' and control. It is when there is thinking about Dhamma without understanding, that there arises an idea about `doing'. ========================================= > Sukinder: Not necessary to say, "keep in mind", but dhammas do arise > all the time and depending on many, many conditions we will be > reminded about the moment or we will not. > > Eznir: It is nesessary. Dhammas do arise all the time and to be reminded > about the moment or not, does depend on the inclination of our mind. > Our minds are never in a blank state, all the time it is involved in > some thinking. S> Reminders are necessary; association with wise friends is one such condition for this to happen. And when the mind is inclined towards dhamma as against other matters, then reminders come in from many directions. However, this can happen with all levels of understandings and misunderstandings. So it is one thing to see the value of being reminded and have correct intellectual understanding, but another to remind oneself constantly about what needs to be done. The former can be with the understanding that dhammas are conditioned and beyond control, whereas the latter may be with the idea of self and control. Again I stress `understanding' as against `thinking' about dhamma. > ========================================= > > Sukinder: If alobha and vijja arises, well and good, it knows. > > Eznir: But this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash! They too are > subjected to the "many, many conditions" you mentioned above. These > many many conditons are the inclination of the mind that conditons > alobha and vijja to arise! S> Only panna conditions more panna and this cannot be willed. There can however be the illusion that one is thinking about dhamma regularly and that this is associated with right understanding. If this is the case, then in fact one is going the wrong way. Wrong understanding conditions wrong practice. ========================================= > Sukinder: But their opposites don't and we could do well with > reminders about their being almost perpetually present. > > Eznir: See how you contradict yourself here; you say, "Not necessary to > say, "keep in mind"" that dhammas do arise all the time. But when it > comes to lobha and avijja you say, "we could do well with reminders > about their being almost perpetually present" - that is to *keep in > mind*. They too are dhammas that arise all the time? S> Again, saying, "keep in mind" is different from "understanding" the value of being reminded. To be continued…. Metta, Sukinder 47155 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 C sukinderpal Dear Eznir, Continuation from last post. ------------------------------------- > Sukinder: Here I can't agree. The development of wisdom takes place > only insofar as wisdom *does* arise. It is not a matter of developing > an attitude regardless of this, does it? The gradual elimination of > suffering in any form comes from "knowing", and not from choosing to > pay attention to a particular idea. > > Eznir: The present moment is proped up by many many conditions or thought > processes; just like the previous 'present' moment; and so will the > subsequent 'present' moment. This train of 'present' moments will > give rise to wisdom that accumulates in succession only if the > thought processes that conditoned the intial 'present' moment to this > train, is such, that it strengthens itself with every > passing 'present' moment and that every passing 'present' moment is > consistent and not diversified. S> Earlier you said, "this "alobha and vijja" do not arise like a flash". I think it does. The development of panna is I believe very gradual, so much so that in any lifetime that we hear the Teachings, in that lifetime, panna develops only a fraction more. The level of accumulated panna which can condition the arising of many succeeding moments of satipatthana is one that which is very highly developed. Certainly for those of us still with so much `self view' and ideas about wanting and trying to develop more sati and panna, this can never happen!! As in the simile of the adze handle, I think the development is not easily discernable. But wrong view does project the illusion of result. -------------------------------------------- > Eznir: We choose or intend every moment(I/m sure you'd agree!). S> There is intention with every citta. However if there is an idea of a `self' making choices, this reality of cetana will never be known for what it is. ----------------------------------------- Eznir: If we choose > the breath to be this 'present' moment - in the absence of hindrances > or diversified mind - wisdom is bound to accumulate with every > passing moment! But only if we choose with every moment to be with > the breath! (ie every present moment must be consistent) S> There are hindrances to sati and panna in the sense that when they arise, then more akusala is being accumulated. However there is only one hindrance that actually makes us take the wrong path, and this is miccha ditthi. I believe such ideas as taking an object (for e.g. breath) with the idea that the hindrances would not then come in the way of development, is I believe a manifestation of this `one' hindrance. Akusala are and must be equally the object of any level of sati and panna. We must accept in the beginning that this would be mostly on the intellectual level. And any awareness of realities would be weak and in flashes, and that this could be of any kusala or akusala dhamma. > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: So with equanimity, the kind that is worth seeking, comes > from "knowing". And this wisdom that `knows', doesn't mind what the > present citta is, kusala or akusala. So I think you are not really > talking about panna here. > > Eznir: This wisdom that knows, do mind what the present citta is! This is > mindfulness and awareness. That's how this wisdom knows how things > arise, their cause & condition, and how they will not arise again. S> Why would panna mind when it knows that whatever it is is conditioned? Only ambition and wrong view makes judgements I think. Knowing the value of kusala and the danger of akusala in principle is not the same as making a judgement about an experience which is anatta. > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: And that would be repeated reminders about Dhamma and the > fact that it is all about understanding the present moment. ;-) > > Eznir: As I said before, this present moment doesn't just stand by itself, > but is proped up by many many conditions. And your 'understanding the > present moment' depends on these conditions that this 'present > moment' is proped up with. Every moment is not an independent state > but is dependent on various factors. S> Between every mind door process there are bhavanga and vipaka cittas. Just as lobha, dosa, moha can take in any sign and detail as object, so too sati and panna. We can't predict or estimate the conditions for satipatthana at any given moment. The line of thought you express above, is I think wrong. Because it seems to be built on the idea of only a small set of possible conditions and ignoring the fact of upanissaya paccaya. ------------------------------------------- > Eznir: This is clearly apparent if one reflects on how one gets these bright > ideas! The kind that got Archimedes running naked on the street > shouting 'Eureka! Eureka! or Sir Isaac Newton when he saw the apple > falling! When ever one has been bothered with a problem for some > time; one seem to get the right solution on the spur of the moment, > just like that! This is due to reflective thinking on the problem. S> I think we should be cautious of projecting any ideas about paccaya on to conventional situations. Every wrong interpretation is accompanied by clinging and becomes reinforced. ---------------------------------------- > Eznir: And so when understanding the dhammas that arise in the present > moment. But this is due to *reflexive* thinking. In fact there is no > thinking as such but one just 'knows'. Much like intuition, This is > wisdom. But this wisdom didn't just arise, but was proped up by an > edifice of thought that had pre-occupied the mind during the many > many moments just prior to this present moment when wisdom arose! S> I am glad that you make a distinction between `thinking' and `knowing with wisdom'. However I don't think that your understanding of how wisdom is developed is correct. To continue in next post. Metta, Sukinder 47156 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Eznir-Sukin #4 D sukinderpal Dear Eznir, This is the remaining part; ------------------------------------- > Old Sukinder: Yes, I contend this. The clear understanding of particular > characteristics of dhammas, are built upon the foundation of > understanding them as dhatus, and clearly distinguishing between nama > and rupa. > > Eznir: "The clear understanding of particular characteristic of dhammas that > are built upon the foundation of understanding them as dhatus" is > direct seeing. Direct seeing is by necessity beyond thinking and > hence clearly distinguishes between nama & rupa. S> Yes. But I'm not sure of your meaning in the last sentence. I forgot the context of my remark, but I want to point out here, the importance of going slowly and not overreaching even when we think at the level of pariyatti. I often hear people say to the effect that the goal is to know the `Tilakkhana' or that the Buddha taught only "Dukkha and ending of Dukkha". This is expressed in such a way that the importance of understanding nama and rupa is ignored or overlooked. Such thinking then proliferates into trying to observe the Tilakkhana in conventional realities and/or Dukkha in conventional experiences. And I think this is wrong. -------------------------------------- > Eznir: Understanding is with nama & rupa, whereas direct seeing is nama & rupa. S> ??? Please explain. > ========================================= > > Old Sukinder: Our understanding of feelings, perception, intention and so > on is hazy and conceptual, which is far from what they are in the > ultimate sense. > > Eznir: Our 'understanding' of things in an ultimate sense is by necessity > conceptual since it involves thinking and hence far from what they > are in an ultimate sense. When we understand something and come to > say that we know this or that, the consciousness that subsequently > arises is with nama & rupa. S> Again…??? > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: If we attempt to understand them in experience without > first having a clear understanding on the intellectual level, then we > are only going to have yet another hazy view. But the results of > deliberate looking *will* be there, which we will then take for real > knowledge. You can have discussions and in the process refine > and correct your intellectual understanding, but nothing more. > > Eznir: I think one must distinguish the essential difference between what is > understanding and what is direct seeing. S> Could you express your own understanding on this here? > ========================================= > Old Sukinder: The five precepts are only `ideas' which become real only > when there is an opportunity for restraint. > > Eznir: If one is not mindful of the 5 precepts these opportunities for > restraint are missed, hence the purpose of these 5 precepts! And so > with the 8 or 10 precepts, they give a greater opportunity to develop > one's mindfulness. S> I like the idea that the precepts are `training rules'. The understanding of these can and must be developed gradually. And like any other part of the Teachings, it is the understanding on the conceptual level that we start with. The Sotapana no more has the conditions to break the precepts, but only increased understanding led to that. But the Sotapana keeps only the 5 precepts perfectly, but do you notice that many putthujanas strive without understanding at keeping 8 or 10 precepts? I think this is what happens when we become too concerned about `doing'. One should be more concerned about developing understanding of realities and not any idea about specific actions to take. As understanding develops, so too will the moments of `following' the precepts. ----------------------------------------------- Eznir: Need we say more of the 227 patimokka sila kept by > the Sangha! Vinaya is the backbone of the Sangha, which in turn is > the Dhamma in practice. S> Here I think not only understanding is important, but also accumulations to lead the kind of life should be taken into consideration. ------------------------------------- > Eznir: Shall continue when time permits! S> Look forward to it. Metta, Sukinder 47157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Larry and Colette, op 01-07-2005 02:33 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > I still don't get it. Is the meaning that akusala prompting is slothful > and torpid? Are all prompted unwholesome consciousnesses slothful and > torpid. ------- N: No. Not all akusala cittas. We should not think of the conventional meaning of prompting, this may be confusing. It can help to a certain extent but not completely. I shall try to explain again: first kusala citta that is unprompted and prompted, then akusala citta that is unprompted and prompted, and finally sloth and torpor which may or may not accompany akusala citta that is prompted. ****** Kusala citta with strong confidence in the benefit of kusala arises spontaneously when there is an occasion of, for example, giving. There is no hesitation. It is unprompted. It may also happen that one has accumulated stinginess and does not give so readily. But still, one gives but not as wholeheartedly as in the former case. Prompted kusala citta. There is a degree of kusala here. We have to consider the nature of the kusala citta in order to understand the difference. ******* In the case of akusala cittas: akusala citta rooted in lobha that is unprompted: you cling immediately to a delicious flavour. akusala citta rooted in dosa that is unprompted: you dislike immediately orange flavour (I remember your aversion). Akusala citta rooted in lobha that is prompted: someone else tells you:oranges are healthy, there are vitamins, try it, and then you learn to eat oranges. You start to like it after all. akusala citta rooted in dosa that is prompted: you start to dislike someone else after you have been told of his bad conduct. The urging can be done by oneself or someone else. But this does not explain the nature of the akusala citta fully. If we think of the nature of the citta being active or more passive, it may help to see the difference. ****** Now sloth and torpor. We learn that they remove energy for kusala, that they cause mental unwieldiness, paralysis. They do not arise with each akusala citta, but if they arise, they arise with cittas that are prompted, that are not active but more passive. For example, when you wake up, you know that there is work to do, some kusala activities, such as typing Visuddhimagga texts. But you are attached to the ease of bed and do not get up at once. At such moments sloth and torpor may arise together with citta rooted in attachment that is prompted, that is more passive and sluggish. You do not have to think of urging by yourself or others, but rather: consider the nature of the citta that is sluggish, passive, unwieldy. It is hard to know the characteristics of sloth and torpor precisely. Perhaps this may answer your questions. -------- If I tell Colette to rob a bank, .... The prompted consciousness is the one that > is slothful and torpid, not the prompting consciousness. If a salesman > prompts the arising of desire in a customer, that desire is with sloth > and torpor. How so? N: It may be clearer now that prompted desire does not have to be accompanied by sloth and torpor. Nina. 47158 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 3:47am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 236 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] The two cetasikas shamelessness and recklessness seem to be very close in meaning, but they have different characteristics. Shamelessness does not shrink from evil because it is not ashamed of it and does not abhor it. The “Paramattha Mañjúså” compares it to a domestic pig which does not abhor filth. Defilements are like filth, they are unclean, impure. Shamelessness does not abhor defilements, be it attachment, aversion, ignorance, avarice, jealousy, conceit or any other kind of unwholesomeness. As to recklessness, it does not abhor, draw back from evil because it does not see the danger of akusala and it does not fear its consequences such as an unhappy rebirth. The “Paramattha Mañjúså” compares recklessness to a moth which is attracted to the fire, although this is dangerous for it. Are we enslaved by pleasant experiences? We may even commit evil through body, speech or mind on account of them. Then recklessness does not fear the danger of akusala, it does not care about the consequences of akusala. The proximate cause of shamelessness is lack of respect for oneself and the proximate cause of recklessness is lack of respect for someone else. In order to have more understanding of this, we should first study their opposites: moral shame, hiri, and moral fear of blame, ottappa. Shame has a subjective origin, it is influenced by oneself; its proximate cause is self-respect. Fear of blame has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is respect for someone else. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47159 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Colette, Now, where were we? :-) > > If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is > unsafe. > > > > "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote > > quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. > > colette: I disagree! Quantity is a property of experience since > numbers denote quantity I can say that x% of my life has been devoted > to the study of...? <...> > ---------------- Fair enough. When you're thinking about numbers that's whats happening. What I should have said is that quantity is not a property of anything other than thinking. Now, I'm saying that, hoping that you'll agree that quantity doesn't play a role with seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting. The difference between these five senses and thinking is that thinking is learnt and the others are not. > > To apply quantity > > to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. > > colette: do you mean to equate yourself to Paris Hilton? Man, when > you step on toes you sure know where to be steppin'. > > Thanks for the compliment, and mind your feet :-) > > > Further, to objectify > > consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an > arbitrary > > state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. > > > > In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of > > experience. > > colette: I'll send the re-possessing agents over to your home > immediately! You obviously lied on every document you signed from the > time you became 18 years of age since you have no accumulation of > knowledge, experience. Since you have no knowledge and experience now > and according to the above theory, you never did and never will, You > therefore are taking all for yourself from myself and you have > already capitulated whereas I am not going to go quietly. <.....> > > The ways one can think about and pigeonhole what is experienced through the 5 senses is pretty well unlimited. Having said that, the meanings folks attribute to what they experience are pretty well set in concrete before they reach age 10, and not likely to change much over a lifetime. Thinking about experience as discrete, microscopic mini-experiences with fixed and identifiable properties is certainly possible. But that is only thinking, and thinking about what is experienced is on a different level than the experience itself. The meanings I attribute to what is experienced through the five senses have no necessary connection to that experience. Put ten people in a room with Paris Hilton, and you'll end up with 10 different acounts of what Paris Hilton is. And what is experienced when there is no attribution of meaning? No thinking about it? Is experience one without thinking it is one? Is experience many without thinking it is many? > > In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, > > atomic experiencelets. > > > > I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework > > whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about > > which is what, the framework and the reality. > > colette: how can a framework exist since you do not recognize > anything as reality, in fact you reject all applications of > manifestation to reality. Boy, and I thought I was spacey some > times! ;)) I have found it helpful for myself to identify thinking. When I know I'm thinking, I know I can stop thinking. Sometimes I do. Invariably, thinking starts again. Oh well :-) Yeah, I reckon you're spacey too :-) Kind Regards from Me and You and a dog named Spot > > With Iddhividha, > colette 47160 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 3:47am Subject: The Skin: Name & Fame ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Sliced by Gains, Praise, Respect, Honour and Fame: At Savatthi, the blessed Buddha said: Friends, horrible are gains honour, fame, name and praise! It is as if they cut through the outer skin, then through the inner skin, then through the flesh, then through the sinews, then right through to the bone! Having cut through the bone, they slice the marrow itself... So terrible indeed friends, are gains, honour, fame, name and praise... They are as if splattering pig bile over a mad dogs nose, bitter, vile, wicked, tricky, obstructive to achieving this incomparable security from domination...!!! Friends, I have known of a certain person here whose mind I penetrated with my own mind and thereby realized: This venerable one would not tell a deliberate lie, even for the sake of his own life! Yet, sometime later, I see him telling a deliberate lie, because his mind was overwhelmed & obsessed by gains, honour, fame, name & praise... So destructive, friends, are gains, honour, fame, name and praise, so bitter, so vile & blocking any achievement of matchless security from bondage!!! Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'We will leave behind any arisen gain, honour, fame, name & praise and we will not let any arisen gain, honour, fame, name and praise remain obsessing & consuming our minds Thus should you train yourselves... !!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 238-9 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html PS: Dhamma Videos & Sacred Ancient sites: http://dharmavahini.tv/ Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47161 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, sorry, group, Larry & Sue et al, but now I've gotta face the dragon on my own here. Nina, as par for my habitual behavior, I only read to a certain point and now must spontaneously jump into the frey. I had a different take on what Sue(LBIDD) was asking. To me it seemed as though she is under the impression that all of these akusala's are in a small puddle, like a petri dish, and when we act we raise the entire repetroire of akusalas. In some sense this may be true, in which case I would say that the force of the will, intentions, of the act or action vibrate all the akusalas but the akusalas that are more attuned to the issued vibration are the ones to rise faster or/and farther to the surface of consciousness which we then call Kamma or Karma. As for you Nina, see below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Colette, > op 01-07-2005 02:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > > I still don't get it. Is the meaning that akusala prompting is slothful > > and torpid? Are all prompted unwholesome consciousnesses slothful and > > torpid. > ------- > N: No. Not all akusala cittas. > We should not think of the conventional meaning of prompting, this may be > confusing. It can help to a certain extent but not completely. > I shall try to explain again: first kusala citta that is unprompted and > prompted, then akusala citta that is unprompted and prompted, and finally > sloth and torpor which may or may not accompany akusala citta that is > prompted. > ****** > Kusala citta with strong confidence in the benefit of kusala arises > spontaneously when there is an occasion of, for example, giving. There is no > hesitation. colette: you speak of "Doubt" since hesitation implies a tinge, the presence of UNCERTAINTY, question. Have you taken many martial classes before, my dear? Notice the interplay between kusala and akusala. Each is in their own respect with their own volition. They are stirred, my phraseology, and rise respectively to the inherent volition. Now add the 'spice' of "DOUBT, or "UNCERTAINTY", and consider, ponder, the condition of the kusala or/and akusala after the catalyst of Doubt or Uncertainty has been added to the mix, concoction, conglomeration, corporation. <....> That's all folks. toodles, colette It is unprompted. > It may also happen that one has accumulated stinginess and does not give so > readily. But still, one gives but not as wholeheartedly as in the former > case. Prompted kusala citta. > There is a degree of kusala here. We have to consider the nature of the > kusala citta in order to understand the difference. > ******* <...> 47162 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: greetings from Rob Ep egberdina Hi Nina, If th opportunity arises, please pass on my kind and fond regards to Rob. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, all who know Rob Epstein: > > He said: are all happy! I > will try to come and say hello soon. Nina, I have not yet finished the > book, but > I have it in the hands of someone who is a good editor. I hope to get > suggestions > back soon for improving the structure and putting the final form together. > > > It is taking a long time... > > I hope you are well, and thank you for continuing to think of me. Please > give my > best to everyone.> > > Nina. 47163 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhinnas & Others egberdina Hi Sarah and Joop, If you don't mind, I'll persist a bit longer :-) > Hi Herman, [*Evan (&Phil)] > > --- Egbert wrote: > > > I wander what the citta was when the Buddha knew something about the > > mind of an "other"? What does the Abhidhamma say about it? > ... > S: I don't think we can ever overestimate the extent of the direct > knowledge of the Buddha. Whatever he put his mind to, he could know > 'directly', not just conceptually. So he'd know the others' minds as > dhammas. > But presumably he would know "the origin" of those dhammas? He wouldn't think he all of a sudden had a drinking problem on reading the mind of Dean Martin. It seems unescapable, to me, that there is the possibility of differentiating between one causal chain of dhammas and another. The reality of there being your thoughts and memories and my thoughts and memories does not contradict anything in the suttas. Those beings possessed of abhinnas can, after all, also differentiate between their own past lives, and the past lives of others. But the Abhidhamma lacks the capacity to describe such scenarios, as Joop points out. Let's take the parinibanna of the Buddha. Did it happen? Did it happen somewhere, sometime? Or was it a global event with global effect? Did it happen to something, someone specific? Kind Regards Herman 47164 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I think I've got it. If I tell myself to wash the dishes but don't because there is too much sloth and torpor, that sloth and torpor arises with dislike of unpleasant bodily feeling that may arise if I rouse myself. Or perhaps there is clinging to some mental activity or entertainment. Either way, this clinging or dislike is prompted if for no other reason than it is passive. Also we can tell the clinging or aversion are prompted simply by the presence of sloth and torpor. If sloth and torpor are not present, the clinging or aversion may be prompted or unprompted, depending on whether they are active or passive (or possibly there could be a definite prompt). And, as with clinging and aversion, so also with ignorance which arises with all unwholesome consciousnesses. Larry 47165 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jonoabb Hi Lisa Many thanks for tracking down these references to 'upakaraka dhamma'. They both contain useful material. Unfortunately, neither author (Ven Narada, Ledi Sayadaw) gives the source for their reference to the term 'upakaraka', but no doubt an earlier reference will turn up in due course. As to what is and what is not a 'dhamma', this is a big topic and an important one, in fact in a sense you could say it's pretty much all we talk about here. The term 'dhamma' has a number of different meanings in the texts, but in the sense in which I used it in my last post it means anything that has its own characteristic (sabhava) and that accordingly may be the object of sati and panna in the development of insight. These 'dhammas' are classified in the teachings in a number of ways, including as the five khandhas (aggregates), the 12 ayatanas (sense bases), the 18 dhatus (elements), the 4 satipatthanas (foundations of mindfulness), namas and rupas (mentality and materiality), and cittas, cetasikas and rupas (consciousness, mental factors and materiality). These different classifications are all exhaustive classificatons of dhammas that have their own characteristic (except that not all these sets include Nibbana). This is a difficult subject. Happy to discuss further. Jon Lisa wrote: >Hi Jon, I found some interesting words in Colette's > post as well as yours so I chased some of them down. > > >... >Jon asked Colette: I'm interested in the term > 'upakaraka dhamma', since the subject of >whether conditions are or are not 'dhammas' has come up a few >times. Does the source text have anything more to say about it? > >LisaH: Jon, I found the source text I think, but I didn't find >any mention of 'not dhamma.' Also I did a bit more >exploring because I don't know these words well >and this is what I found. Not to take away from >Colette finding this, I would like to discuss what is and >is not dhammas. > >http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/abhisgho/abhis03.htm > >http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL02.html > >... > > 47166 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James Thanks for clarifying your previous posts, and my apologies for any misunderstanding on my part. Let me restate the point I was trying to make. You said: > The Satipatthana Sutta > lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 > parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they > don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that > the activities listed are more conducive to insight. The 'activities' you refer to here are all contained in the section on mindfulness of the body, so if they are indeed conducive to insight then it would be insight into the characteristic of rupas only. Now no such activities are given in relation to mindfulness of feelings, consciousness or dhammas, so I am wondering how you would understand the development of insight into those dhammas to occur, i.e., in the absence of any given 'conducive activites'. Jon buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > > > >... >Now I understand a bit more why you came to the conclusion you did; >however, I think you have read more into the dialogue than was there. > I will explain further below. > >... > > >First, your choice of the word 'suitable' is a hot button word, with >negative connotations, and it isn't a word I would choose. All...let >me repeat: All...of the Satipatthana Sutta is more difficult for lay >folk to follow and, to my knowledge, the Buddha didn't teach it to lay >folk. However, lay folk can benefit from the teaching by >understanding the process and emulating it to the small degree >possible in the worldly life. Additionally, learning the process can >condition greater success in future lives if one becomes a monastic. > >Second, I don't believe the 'specific activities' listed in one >section is more appropriate for lay folk than the general descriptions >listed in the other sections. Those activities, even though they are >specific and identifiable, are not easy to do while living the life of >a householder. > >... > > >>Jon >> >>You said: >>James: The Satipatthana Sutta >>lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 >>parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they >>don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that >>the activities listed are more conducive to insight. >> >>To which I replied: >>I think you mean here the section on kayanupassana (mindfulness of the >>body), i.e., that 'lists a variety of activities'. As Tep reminds us, >>there are no 'activities' set out in the remaining 3 sections (feeling, >>consciousness, dhammas). How, then, are they to be 'practised'? >> >>To which you then replied: >>James: They would be practiced during the standard lifestyle of a >>bhikkhu/bhikkhuni as laid out in the Vinaya Pitaka—which you and I >>aren't even close to emulating so we shouldn't get too many grand >>aspirations! ;-) >> >> > >Jon, no where in this exchange do I say that the four sections are >different or that one section is meant for lay folk while the other >three are not. > > 47167 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 6:05pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah and Nina {Attn.: Larry and Tom }- That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise so far. Sarah: When the texts discuss kayanupassana, I understand it refers to awareness of rupas in the body. Does this mean there should be any focus on them? I don't think so. Sati is anatta and it just depends on this anatta dhamma what is experienced at any moment. Tep: Kayanupassana has a specific object of the contemplation -- any "body in the body" (kaye-kaya) is the "focus" in the sense of focused attention. Don't forget that the subject matter of the presentation so far is "breathing meditation" of the first tetrad (breaths as "body in the body"). Why does the anatta aspect of sati or any dhamma become an issue at this point so early in the Anapanasati bhavana? -------------------------------------- Sarah: As the sutta B.Samahita quoted said, `any kind of form whatsoever....feeling etc, whether past, present or future......internal or external...fair or foul...high or low...far or near.....should be seen & understood as it really is......etc' Tep: That comes from Anattalakkhana sutta. I thought you were discussing Anapanasati meditation. --------------------------------------- Sarah: ... It doesn't help to think along the lines of `this one was stressed or discussed in more suttas by the Buddha'. It's a question of what appears right now without any wishing for it as we read about in the soggy wood simile. Tep: That's right, what appears "right now" is the breaths and the attention (or sati) placed at the front . "While breathing in long, he knows 'I am breathing in long', while breathing out long, he knows 'I am breathing out long'..." This is real meditation, samatha-vipassana with sati-sampajanna and atapi, based on the object of meditation -- not a thinking meditation to find answer to everything. --------------------------------------- Sarah: And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana through the body- sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. Tep: I am not sure I'm following you here. Please kindly notice that the Breathing Treatise so far (up to paragraph # 197, ground 1 of 1st tetrad) has not touched upon 'dhatu' or "body-sense" in the breathing meditation sutta. It is less confusing when you concentrate only on the text information being presented. "Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing not these three ideas (dhamma) Does not obtain development." Distracted cognizance is avoided when only these three things are well understood during the meditation. [See #169, Breathing Treatise.] ----------------------------------- Sarah: So as soon as the text is referring to vipassana nanas or insights of any kind, it is referring to insights into the true characteristics of these elements –any rupas and any namas appearing only. It is not referring any more to the development of samatha, jhanas and signs of jhanas. Tep: That is what you think**. ------------------------------------ Sarah: This has been a great meditation for me, Tep. I'm sure it raises further questions and there will be much you may take issue with. Tep: But that "great meditation" is just a thinking meditation -- too much on concepts and principles that you have gathered from listening to dhamma talks and reading commentaries. This reminds me of a real vipassana teacher's remark about thinking guided by "panna": "When the meditator receives advice that this rupanama is impermanent, oppressive, and not self, that not even his thinking is permanent, then he must establish mindfulness to note only this present object. Practising by thinking is 'THINKING MEDITATION'; but practising with mindfulness noting the present object is called VIPASSANA. ... ... ... "There are also people who think so much that they cannot sleep anymore. This makes the nerves overtaxed and the body exhausted. Such intense thinking about Dhamma is cintamayapanna which means panna arising from thinking. Some people have learned a lot, therefore they think even more extensively. Some people have mana (conceit); they think they are better, then they become such people who do not believe anybody, not even their own teacher, this is the cause of EXCESS OF PANNA OVER SADDHA." http://www.vimokkha.com/adjusting5indriya3.html Tep: ** I have a suggestion to you, Sarah. Since you seem to know a lot how to read and interpret the Breathing Treatise "the right way", so why don't you take over the presentation from now on? You and Nina should work together since your views are compatible too. Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Nina, Han & all)*. > > Let me join your reflections on the difficult passages by thinking out > loud. Thank you all for your posts. > (snipped) > > Of course it depends entirely on accumulations as to what objects are > experienced and known and it depends on the accumulation of wisdom as to whether it's ready to become detached and to experience dhammas for what they are, to experience the rising and falling away of dhammas and so on. It takes a long time because of all the ignrorance and attachment > accumulated as well. > > No one can stop vipassana nanas arising when the conditions are right either. So we read about aniccanupassana,dukkhanapassana, anattanupassana, norodhanupassana, viraganupassana etc – these are kinds of panna arising. > Different aspects of dhammas have to be known before degrees of lobha can be eradicated. > > So the paragraphs you quoted from the Patisambhidamagga #197- 199 refer I think to the principal insights given in Vsm XX,90. (see Connie's post #46354). `Body' here refers to rupas (in the body) as I explained. In this case (of the one who has attained jhanas with breath as object), after attaining jhanas, the various dhammas have to be understood as Nina and Htoo have explained before, starting with the basic understanding of namas and rupas. > (snipped) > > Sarah > * I wrote this post a couple of days ago before reading Nina's and your recent posts, but have been having computer problems, so I delayed posting it. I look f/w to reading your posts I've put aside. > ==== 47168 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 10:54pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 237 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 125) states that shame, which has a subjective origin, arises from consideration of one’s birth, one’s age, heroism (courage and strength) and wide experience. In the case of shamelessness there is lack of such considerations. For example, when we give in to anger or when we are jealous of someone else who receives praise or other pleasant things, there is no consideration of our education or upbringing in morality. At such moments we have no moral strength, we behave like a weakling or a fool, in a childish way. Thus, at the moment of akusala citta there is lack of respect for ourselves, we are forgetful of all we have learnt from the Buddha’s teachings. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47169 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Jon - > >Congratulations for your so-far most direct answers (no beating around >the bush) to my questions. > Is this bush related to the George W variety? >I think we can say that our discussion has >come to a conclusion. > >Jon's Points that Tep has Agreed with >------------------------------------------------------- > >-- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight >development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending >on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, >whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". > >-- "But the central message remained the same, namely, insight into the >true nature of the presently arising dhammas". > >--"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he >meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and >encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala >of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that >accompanies insight in particular". > >-- "... in teaching what 'dhammas' are -- they are presented (classified) >in different ways, as khandhas, as ayatanas, as elements, as in the >fourfold classification of the arousings of mindfulness, etc." > >-- "I think you would agree that the contemplations on vedana, citta and >dhammas as given in the other 3 sections of the Satipatthana Sutta are >posture/activity independent. Yet obviously they can occur only at a >time of either walking, standing, sitting or lying (as in the section on >modes of deportment)." > >Tep's Final remark: Is our successful conclusion this time due to the >fact that you've dropped the 'leadership attitude', or is it because you >have no 'leading points' or branches in your answers, or because I've >become less argumentative? > > ... Or is is because you've been am-bushed? (Just kidding, of course) I am happy to treat the present thread as (happily) concluded, but I'd like to leave you with a couple of questions/comments arising from our Agreed Points that you may wish to consider further (now or later). [AP.1] -- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". There are many references in the texts where the sequence of progress towards enlightenment is described as including the attainment of the 4 mundane jhanas, and/or where the attainment of enlightenment is attained with the jhanas as basis. Is it possible that these references are to be read in the light of our Agreed Point, that is to say, that for those who were already of highly developed samatha there was the prospect of both mundane jhana and enlightenment? In particular, could the mindfulness of breathing section of the Satipatthana Sutta be read as a teaching addressed to monks who were already skilled in the practice of anapanasati samadhi (mindfulness of breathing as a subject of contemplation in samatha bhavana)? [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. Consider the following passage from CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 (i.e., the translator's summary of the commentaries). >>>>>>>>>> All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas *occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana*. Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. >>>>>>>>>> So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). Hoping there are not too many 'leading' questions/points for you here ;-)) Jon Dubya 47170 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Dan Dan D. wrote: >Hi Jon, >You ask a great question -- one that I think is central to the >problem. I think you are right in your implication that a doctrine of >anatta without dhammas is not conducive to any development of >insight -- it would more resemble a dead fatalism. > >The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I >think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its >purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, >and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at >great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have >a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few >months. > I''m not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different teachings. It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-)). But perhaps you see some particular benefit? Jon 47171 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and James and Tep) - > >In a message dated 6/26/05 9:17:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >jonabbott@... writes: >This was in the context of the idea of certain activities being >conducive to the development of insight. My point was that since clearly >no activities are given for mindfulness of feeling, consciousness and >dhammas, then what about the development of those aspects of satipatthana? >=========================== > The section on feelings is as follows: > >------------------------------------- >II. The Contemplation of Feeling >And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating feelings in feelings? >Herein, monks, a monk when experiencing a pleasant feeling knows, "I >experience a pleasant feeling"; >... >Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings >in feelings. >--------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Isn't it straightforwardly implied here that the practice is paying >attention, to see exactly what is happening? > > As far as I can see, the passage says that when a person who experiences a pleasant feeling knows (by direct understanding), "I experience a pleasant feeling", he is [at that moment] contemplating feelings in feelings. The passage does not purport to explain exactly how that knowledge (panna) comes to arise, but I do not see any need to imply a 'practice' of paying attention to feelings. What is 'paying attention'? Anyone can pay attention to their feelings, but I would not see that as involving kusala of any kind, let alone kusala accompanied by panna which is clearly what is being referred to in the sutta. If anything is to be straightforwardly implied here, I would say it is that the 'knowing' of which the sutta speaks is direct knowledge, that is, with panna. The conditions for the arising of that panna are complex, but we are told that giving repeated consideration to what has been heard and properly understood is a key factor. >Moreover, isn't the prior practice on >the body "to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness" >preparatory practice? > I am not aware of any reference in the sutta or its commentaries to any order of development of the 4 arousings of mindfulness being suggested. (I can see that if one understands the sutta in terms of a 'practice' then it would be useful to have an order -- so that you know where to start the practice ;-)). If there is mindfulness of attachment or aversion at any time, then that is what is being developed at that moment, regardless of the extent to which mindfulness of rupas or of feeling has previously been developed. Jon 47172 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 0:08am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > Thanks for clarifying your previous posts, and my apologies for any > misunderstanding on my part. > > Let me restate the point I was trying to make. You said: > > > The Satipatthana Sutta > > lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 > > parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they > > don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that > > the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > > The 'activities' you refer to here are all contained in the section on > mindfulness of the body, so if they are indeed conducive to insight then > it would be insight into the characteristic of rupas only. Now no such > activities are given in relation to mindfulness of feelings, > consciousness or dhammas, so I am wondering how you would understand the > development of insight into those dhammas to occur, i.e., in the absence > of any given 'conducive activites'. > > Jon It amazes me how you keep coming back to this subject. Do you think I am an expert on satipatthana or something? ;-)) From my understanding, insight into the characteristics of rupas would, post facto, involve insight into the characteristics of namas. They are both dependent on each other. Metta, James 47173 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 11:34pm Subject: The 3 Universal Characteristics ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Three Undeniable Global Properties: Is the body & external form, lasting or transient? Transient! Is feeling, pleasant or not, lasting or transient? Transient! Is experienced perceptions lasting or transient? Transient! Is the mental constructions lasting or transient? Transient! Is the bare aware consciousness lasting or transient? Transient! Is the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, lasting or transient? Is form, sound, smell, taste, touch & thought, lasting or transient? Is solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, and space, lasting or transient? All these are Transient!, Impermanent!, Temporary!, Fleeting! Is what is transient, happiness or suffering? Decay is Suffering! Is what is transient, ever changing & therefore frustrating pain suitable to be regarded as: 'This is Mine, This I Am, This is Me' 'This I can Keep', 'This I Posses', 'This is my Self' ... ??? No certainly Not ... !!!, since what is self must be keepable, same, constant, controllable, under one's power, and thus pleasant... As all these phenomena are none of this, they cannot ever be self! Seeing this, understanding this, comprehending this, the Noble Learner is disgusted by all form, by all sensing, by all physical, by all mental. Being thus disgusted, one experiences disillusion... Without illusions, the mind is released & one immediately knows: This mental liberation is final & irreversible. This - exactly this - is the state called Nibbana, experienced is this very life ... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 244-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47174 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? jonoabb Hi Herman Lots of meat in your post to Tep, so I hope you don't mind if I butt in ;-)) Egbert wrote: >Hi Tep, > > >... >Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that no thing >is knowable as itself (there is no essence). > The way it is explained in the suttas, the quality of 'anatta' becomes apparent when things are seen as being subject to conditions (not being their own cause). So it is a case of conditioned/not own cause, hence anatta, rather than anatta, hence conditioned/not own cause. I'd be interested to know more about the connection you see between anattaness and being/not being knowable as itself (no essence). Is there a conceptual problem with things being not of their own cause, yet with essence? >All things are a >convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, >or knowable as themselves. > I'd like to ask about the idea of all things being a convergence of many other things, with no thing being knowable as itself. As you sit before your computer and read this post there is visible datum being experienced at the eye-door, and probably hardness through the body door. In what sense do you understand this visible datum or tangible datum to be a convergence of many other 'things' (as opposed to being the product of multiple conditions)? >Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of >the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and >predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to >understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent >origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) >things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to be. > > I agree that an understanding of co-dependent origination is a necessary part of the path to enlightenment. As I see it, this understanding gradually develops as insight into the true nature of dhammas is developed. Is that how you see it too? Jon 47175 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon and Dan, > >Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. > >But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > > There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go. What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison? Jon 47176 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. jonoabb Hi Tep I've been following your series with interest, but don't often find time to make a comment. Tep Sastri wrote: >... > [The Foundation of Mindfulness] > >196. Long in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a >body. The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. The >contemplation is knowledge. The body is the establishment >(foundation), but it is not the mindfulness. [In-breaths and out-breaths >taken as particles are a body in the sense of mass, and also the sign >arisen in dependence on the normal in-breaths and normal out-breaths >is called 'the sign' too. 'The establishment is mindfulness': mindfulness >is called 'establishment(foundation)' since , having approached that >object, it remains there. 'The contemplation is knowledge': the meaning >is that contemplation of the sign body in serenity and contemplation of >the mental body and material body in insight are knowledge. ... > >Tep's Notes: > >1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, >equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath >more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle >than before}, 3x3 = 9. > I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I think the nine aspects would be the things itemised as (a) to (i) in par. 195, namely, (long in-breath, long out-breath and long in-breath and out-breath) x ( without zeal or gladness, with zeal, with gladness) >3) In the Thai version "The establishment(foundation) is mindfulness. >The contemplation is knowledge." is the same as "Sati becomes >anupassana-nana." > > I was interested to read the explanation of the expression 'The contemplation ins knowledge' in par. 196 above, to the effect that: (a) contemplation of the sign body in serenity is knowledge, and (b) contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight is knowledge. I am guessing that 'serenity' is a translation of 'samatha', and 'insight' a translation of 'vipassana'. What caught my attention was the association of 'sign-body' (nimitta?) with samatha and 'mental body and material body' (nama and rupa) with vipassana bhavana. In other words, insight development is associated with nama and rupa, but not with nimitta. (My understanding is that while both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana involve the arising of panna, the panna would be of different levels/degrees. Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma.) Thanks very much for all the work you put into the series. Much appreciated. Jon 47177 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Hi everyone, > >Consider this post to be drenched in honey before you proceed :-) > > And likewise this one ;-)) >If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. > >"one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote >quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. To apply quantity >to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. > Yes, "one" is a number, and numbers are concepts. But then, all language is concepts (can you make a meaningful sentence without using concepts?). Language that is used to describe what is real is still conceptual. But I do not see how this means a 'confusion of levels'. Unless of course you take the view that reality should never be discussed ;-)) >Further, to objectify >consciousness and call that "reality" is simply defining an arbitrary >state of affairs with no necessary relation to anything else. > >In reality, neither singleness, nor unity, is a property of >experience. In reality, experience does not consist of discrete, >atomic experiencelets. > It is not a case of consciousness being called reality. It is a case of what is real now being seen as it truly is. One or more of the ways in which that 'reality' is classified includes 'consciousness' as one of its classifications. The conventional idea of consciousness is something else again. >I have no problem with the application of any conceptual framework >whatsoever to experience. But I do not intend to be confused about >which is what, the framework and the reality. > > The application of a conceptual framework to experience would not be the proper practice of the teachings. Jon 47178 From: amp amp Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura Dear Sarah, I think I havant structured my question properly in my last posting. so let me re-post the same question again. My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.. Metta, avidu sarah abbott wrote: Dear Friend*, Welcome to DSG too. I hope you find it helpful and enjoyable to be here. --- avinduandura wrote: > > I would like to ask for help to clarify some douts which is in my > mind about buddha and the buddhism. I know little about the > > buddhism but have deep experience gained from life.I have to use > simple terms as I haven't studied buddhism. <...> 47179 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol balancing_life Hi Sarah & All, Apologise for my absence last week, was not feeling well, due to my "friend's" monthly visit. I am really sorry that all of your family had to endure the sufferings due to your father's weakness/passion/addiction to drinking, as drinking has clouded his mind, thereby being not aware of what he is doing to his family and maybe he just was drinking away his depression, as well. Here in our country, some people even are addicted to cough syrups, as i see them buying them in pharmacies as the side effects of drinking this type of cough syrups is to help them to sleep easier, as when one is depressed, one is unable to sleep well and anyway, it's cheaper than alcohol or beer. Last time, it was worse, when the cough syrup contained a certain ingredient, but after our government got wind of it, it has been elimated from the cough syrup, but apparently, people still do buy them, and before that, our enforcement officers would pretend to be the public, asking for the cough syrup, b'cos it's under a certain category, which needs the buyer to write their name, address and signature, and if the pharmacies just sell them without this info, then they would be caught and fined and even probably jailed for it. But being an optimistic me, Sarah, look at the positive side of it...you have found what you were looking for, due to your father's drunkeness...as they say, "If you want to see the RainBows, then you will have to put up with the rain", or in our Malay proverbs, "Di mana hujan tidak timpah", literally meaning "Where in this world, rain has not fallen"...rain meaning sufferings. Guess in this world, all of us have our own sufferings and if i am not suffering rite now, i would not be into so many Buddhism websites also, likewise for Lord Buddha. If i were him, having so much grandeur in his life...he had a loving father, 3 or is it 4 palaces built for him for different seasons, a beautiful wife who just had a son, and whose purpose in life was just to enjoy life, with no money worries, was not happy when he saw the sufferings of sickness, death, poverty, etc, and just to give up everything so as to find a solution to end all these sufferings, eventhough having meant to give it all up the luxury of being a prince...well it takes a great man to do it and i think, no ordinary human being can do it. Well, eventually, it did helped him in a way, as he outlived his earlier diciples, his own family, his wife and even survived his own son, Rahula...if he was not enlightened, or reached Nibbana, what would you think would have happened to him...suffering the deaths of all his family? We have an Islamic court called the "Syariah" court, whereby they deal with the issues of Muslims behaviour, in Malaysia and recently they announced on the radio, that those Muslims caught drinking or buying alcohol or beer will be fined or jailed...So Lord Buddha is rite, after all, as it is one of his 5 precepts. Will tell you of another precept, ie, illicit sex, which is practiced in our Syariah court as well, in another email. With Metta :} AliceInSympathyLand Hi Alice, I just lost a longer reply to this post of yours. In brief, I thought you made excellent comments and gave some good quotes. S: Ummm - A very clever man, a classics scholar from Cambridge and a lawyer from a well-to-do family, also a doting family man who adored his children....but, a weakness for drink. When we were young, it was just social drinking and he was encouraged as the 'life and soul' of any party.....over the years it got worse and worse, leading to some really horrible incidents, manic depression, serious epileptic fits and much worse. Impossible to talk to him or get any help even though we were so very close. In the end, he lost just about everything. It's still difficult for me to talk about, even though he died 20 yrs ago. He once wrote to me that he was so glad I'd found what I was looking for (in the Dhamma) because he'd been looking his whole life but not found it. .... metta, Sarah 47180 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 balancing_life Well, Sarah, unfortunately, the father has not learnt to let go yet. In fact, since we were young, i haven't seen him cry, until i saw him crying, touching so lovingly on his daughter's face, tracing the outlines, of her face with his fingers. Fortunately for him, his current mum-in-law, has a relative who was a monk, and she arranged for them to meet. Apparently, it did him some good, and seeing the circumstances on the way she died, the monk suggested "Transferance of Merits", in sponsoring publishing free Buddhism books in memory of her name. We also did that in this Mahindarama Temple, whereby, everyday, after the Puja Prayers, they have this custom or tradition of pouring of a jug of water into a empty glass, whilst the monks do the special chanting. Before, we start the puja prayers, then i would give Dana to the monks, to the Amatta Free Clinic, to the Old Folks Home and the last is in memorium, to our dear departed loved ones. So, the one of the monks would read the names of the people who donated and lastly the "in Memorium" would come last before they start the chanting. Usually, one of the devotees, whose dearly departed is marking the first 7th day, after the death of the loved one to the 7th week of the 7th day, as in Taoism, one believes that the dearly departed, only knows that they are dead on the 49th day (7x7), whereas in Buddhism, i have read in books that one is immediately reincarnated, the very next minute one is dead. Also, marking the occasion (in Taoism) is the 100th day and the first anniversary and that person will pour the water slowly out into the glass, filling it in until it overflows and when the monks have finished chanting, the water will be poured away into a tree. As only one person can do the pouring, those wanting to "transfer the merits", will gather around this person and gather this person's blouse or dress or shirt, to share the merits. At first, my brother questioned everyone in his ex-wife's family on how she fell, and after the funeral, he went to the school to investigate as he suspected it has something to do with her school...and eventually the truth came out. Immediately, the next day, the principal ordered a special assembly for the whole school on not to reveal anything regarding my niece's death, but since where i am staying is a small island, the whole thing spread like wildfire, and in the end, everyone knew, as almost everyone i know, has kids studying in that school. I know that, cos a couple of months back, on the way back from my father's house, i met my father's next door neighbours and so far, in so many years, we have never said a word to each other, but just to wave our hands to signify a friendly greeting only and on that day, it turned out that the husband is a teacher in another school, and he mentioned my niece, as our surname is quite unique and told me the same story, that has been circulating about the teacher's loud and harsh scolding & the childish prank...he said he was quite surprised, as it was featured in the newspapers on how she fell to her death, as he told me that both my nieces were very well behaved and quite reserved or very quiet and kept to themselves...no boisterious noises from them. On the day of my niece's death anniversary, my brother was still angry with the antics of her school mates and school teacher, which caused her death and wanted to publish a "In Memoriam" to remind them of my niece's death, in every Chinese and English newspapers, in a very "critical" way, but the publishers did not want to accept it, and he had to tone it down. Subsequently, on the second year's anniversary, he has published another one, (i am now at home and the copy of the advert is not here, but in the office), which i will type it down for you all to read in my next email or ask one of my staff to scan it, and will post it next week. Well, in a week's time, on July 9th, it will be her 3rd anniversary of her death, and if she was still alive, she would have been 15 years old already. The worst thing is that everyday, on the way to & from work, he has to pass the aparment where she fell (her mother & family has moved away immediately, after her death), and also the funeral home where she was laid, before her cremation and also the cremation building is just opposite the funeral home. I too, was at first very disturbed, at first, as i too have to pass that way also, everyday from Mondays to Fridays, her funeral home and where her ashes are held, but nowadays, there are too many problems in my mind, that i do not have the time to think about her, each time i pass there now. My brother told me that on each anniversary of her death, he will go to the place, where her ashes are put in a jar, then into a compartment (he had pasted photos of her, from being a baby till the latest photo he had of her, around the plastic shield on the compartment) and then will later go to the Mahindarama Temple to do the "transference of merits"...which i will also attend. After my niece's death, i was a constant visitor, at the temple there that the staff writing & receiving the Dana, told me that someone else had also donated "in memory of" my niece's name and but when asked the name of the donor, it was written "anonymous"...guess it must either be from one of her school mates or her teacher. I also took one of the Sri Langka monk's there to the funeral home to bless the body or rather did some chanting, before it was put in the coffin and on the day of the funeral itself, my sis-in-law, also asked me to go & fetch the monk to bless her again. In Taoism, usually, a body is put in the funeral home or its own home for 3 or 5 days, whereas for a Islam person, or an Indian person, the funeral will be held on the same day itself, and for the Muslims, there is no coffin, but just a white cloth, wrapped around its body. We chose a Buddhism funeral rites for her instead of Taoism, as Buddhism rites will have vegetarian dishes prepared and when the funeral is on its way, chanting of Buddhism songs will be played, whereas if Taoism funeral rites, were arranged, then they would pray non-vegetarian foods, and lots of effigies/houses, etc would be burned and during the funeral, a funeral band will be playing sad heart rendering songs. Thank you, Sarah, for explaining about her kamma & rebirth, so at least my heart is pacified, that she will be at least be reincarnated, and not be a "hungry ghost" roaming the streets. As i told you that i am still a novice, i am not able to participate in your discussions yet, as i do not even know what "vipaka " means...can you please explain this to me? I feel that you members here are in the advanced stage, whereas i am still in the kindergarten stage only...lol. Thanks and so sorry for boring you all with this story of my niece. With Metta :} AliceStillInDepressionLand Hi Alice, Thank you for your detailed replies and for sharing your difficulties with us. I'm sure it takes some courage to do this. <....> 47181 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:37am Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , philofillet Hi Herman, and all Sorry it took so long to get back to you. It looks like Saturday and Wednesday will be the days I can post at my ease. I think I will call this "letter to Herman" and write to you once a week the way I did with James, if you're intersted. (James and I agreed that we had talked things out to a logical end) I find writing to someone whose views are somewhat contrary to mine is very helpful. You have a good way of challenging me. > The suttas can be likened to an unordered collection of doctor's notes > and prescriptions, found in a surgery after some 40 years of practice. > It has been the work of others to collate, study and interpret them. Yes. I remember when I first came across Dhamma I wondered how we could take the Buddha's teaching verbatim - how do we know what He really said. I don't worry about that anymore because of confidence gained from the benefits. > The prescriptions of the Buddha are to specific people, or to groups > of people. He prescribed starting with the particular thicket of > beliefs the specific patient(s) presented with. Which only makes > sense, doesn't it? Yes, it makes sense. But only the Buddha had the kind of penetrative understanding of people's accumulations. When we go about making judgements about suttas, we are usually operating from a lot of craving and ignorance, so we interpret them the way that best suits are needs at the time. This doesn't always happen, but I'm sure it happens a lot of the time. We should approach suttas well aware that we are not capable of understand them to the degree of the original listeners, in my opinion. If there is right understanding, so be it. > > That experience was composed of elements was certainly a current > belief in those days, and the teaching of the Buddha in relation to > that was not to expand that and get into ever finer and finer detail > about that, but that all condition phenomena have three basic > characteristics, and how to get beyond that. I disagree. I can only guess that you haven't read Samyutta Nikaya. It is chock full of elements. There is one book devoted to khandas, another to sense bases, another to dependent origination, another to feelings, and many more. I have only begun to play around at the surface, but I can assure you that in order to get at understanding the three chracteristics there must be understanding of realities approached from many different angles, with varying degree of details. For example, in SN 22:57, the Buddha said that we should be "triple investigators": "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu a triple investigator? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu investigates by way of the elements, by way of the sense basess, and by way of dependent origination." And note that this is in the samyutta devoted to the khandas. To "get beyond" the three characteristics is the goal, I suppose, but first we have to delve deep into experience in a patient way and see to what degree out experience comes to be that of the Buddha's. Of course, it is only to a very small degree that we can understand reality to the degree the Buddha did, but we can start here and now, patiently. There is no "getting beyond" for us yet, that much is for certain. > There are prescriptions very specifically for people with families, > jobs, responsibilities and aspirations in the world, and we would be > well advised to follow the prescriptions relevant to us, wouldn't you > reckon? Yes, I think of course that it is wise to find guidance in suttas that are worded in conventional language. Inspiration. I get a lot of inspiration from Dhammapada. But reading Dhammapada without at least an intellectual understanding of the elemental realities (such as those laid out above) that lie beneath talk of people and turtles and chariots and so forth is a pleasant exercise and can make us feel that our life is deep and meaningful but it doesn't bring us any closer to liberation. Well, it *can* be a very helpful condition for avoiding evil deeds. Suttas have been helping me greatly to let go of temptations to evil. But that is about not accumulating more evil rather than the ever-so-gradual eradication of accumulated defilements that is involved in satipatthana. My present feeling is that we can make progress in gaining liberating from moral trangression with suttas as a very powerful condition (while remembering that there are even greater forces at work propelling us back towards transgression) but progress in satipatthana is not something a wise person would ever claim to be making. As always, sorry for the all-inclusive "we" above. Let me leave you with a point to ponder. In a sutta in Samyutta Nikaya (SN 35:81) the Buddha tells a monk that if anyone asks him "for what purpose is the holy life lived under the ascetic Gotama?" he should answer "it is for the full understanding of suffering that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One." And then he adds that if wanderers should ask "What is that suffering for the full understanding of which the holy life is lived under the ascetic Gotama?" they should answer "The eye is suffering...it is for the full understanding of this that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One..forms are suffering..eye-consciousness is suffering..." and so on. Suffering taught in elemental terms, paramattha dhamma terms, rather than in the conventional description of suffering as old age, sickness and death, separation from the beloved etc... We start as the Buddha started, woken to a sense of crisis by realizing that we will grow old, grow sick and die, be torn apart from the loved, crammed together with the stinky unloved and so on....but it is only by getting deeper into realities that we can really find liberation from this suffering. But, again, I do appreciate the inspirational and keeping-us-from- evil aspect of suttas which are all about people and things on the surface. (Of course they are all about realities deeper down when we have right understanding.) We can benefit from them long before we truly understand the deep, deep suttas such as those found in Samyutta Nikaya. A bit of a ramble there, Herman. Thanks for your time. And sorry for any typos. I like to send these things off without proofreading. Metta, Phil 47182 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah and all) - In a message dated 7/1/05 9:05:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Sarah and Nina {Attn.: Larry and Tom }- That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise so far. ====================== Not unsurprisingly, I would suppose, Sarah, I agree with Tep on this matter. It seems to me that you are making an *intellectual* jump to reality insights that can arise as consequence of anapanasati bhavana and *substituting* these intellectual conclusions for the conventional practice teachings that lead to the direct wisdom that actually reveals these insights. To me it is crystal clear that the Buddha teaches in the Anapanasati Sutta conventional mental activities pertaining to conventional objects such as the breath. And it is not surprising that he should do so. Worldlings and lesser ariyans do not directly apprehend at a conscious level paramattha dhammas, but experience them only through a conceptual overlay, and it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that sankharically unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level. We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47183 From: "phamdluan2000" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:01am Subject: Sandaka Sutta phamdluan2000 Dear everybody, I'm looking for the Sandaka Sutta in which the Buddha talked of 4 types of false religion and 4 other types of unsatisfactory but not necessarily false religion. Thank you in advance. Metta, KKT 47184 From: "avinduandura" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura Hi Nina, I just wanted to clear my mind about rebirth and parallal worlds through the dhamma. I think it is not a practical thing to do at this early stage in learning dhamma. OK, then my next question is what to learn. should we read/learn all the texts which contain every thing buddha said in his 45 years? and speaches given to thousands of people who needed buddhas help to overcome their problem which was not related to the dhamma at all? eg, how to spend a good family life etc.. metta, avidu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Avinduandura, > In understanding the different consciousnesses that change at each moment > and succeed one another, you come to understand yourself and this life. When > understanding of the present moment is fully developed nibbana can be > attained and then doubt about the future is also eradicated. > This is a long process. We should first discuss what is real at this moment. > Nina. > op 29-06-2005 17:17 schreef avinduandura op avinduandura@y...: > > > my main concern is about the rebirth and existance of other worlds. > > Could we verify this truth even if atend nibbana? 47185 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. upasaka_howard Hi again, Tep, Sarah, and all - In a message dated 7/2/05 9:01:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that sankharically unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level. ===================== Where I wrote "sankharically unconstructed phenomena" I would better have written "conceptually unconstructed phenomena." After all, even conceptually unconstructed phenomena such as hardness and warmth arise conditioned by kamma, and are, thus, sankharically conditioned in part. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47186 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. jonoabb Hi Howard I've been following with interest your discussion with Nina and Lodewijk on the need for the conventional action of paying attention in order for awareness or insight to arise. upasaka@... wrote: >... >Nina adds: >I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional >action to concentrate on nama and rupa. > >Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > There is the need to intend to attend, and there is te need to then pay >attention! For the impermanent, unsatisfying, and empty nature of dhammas to >register, one needs to pay attention in order to really "see". > A couple of comments about what you describe here as the intention to attend and the paying of attention. First, although you don't say this directly, I get the impression (my apologies if I am wrong) that you see the intentional paying of attention to the present reality as being the same thing as awareness or insight. I think we need to be very clear that awareness and insight are aspects of panna, and panna does not arise just because we decide to pay attention to the present reality, or rather, to what we take to be the present reality. To put that another way, paying attention may be kusala or akusala, and it is obviously only the kusala kind, arising with panna, that would be of any benefit here. So the key must be the arising of panna, not paying attention. Secondly, as you have recently agreed in another thread, all forms of kusala can and do arise without being immediately preceded by the conscious intention for its arising. So it is not correct to say there must be intention to attend first. If there is a proper appreciation of the importance of attending to the nature of a presently arising dhamma (a sense of urgency), that attending can occur, at a level appropriate to one's accumulated understanding, without any conscious intention that it should do so. (Another point to consider in relation to this 'intention to attend' is this: If the actual paying of attention is the awareness/insight that is the 'target' of the intention, what is the nature of the intention to attend. Is it itself kusala? It's obviously not samatha or vipassana bhavana, so what kind of kusala is it, and what factors condition its arising?) >The answer is in the experience of this moment and understanding it. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Indeed. But one must pay attention! >-------------------------------------- >... >A noisy plane passed over and I said: see, we do not have to look for sound, >it is there already, and so is hearing. >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Yes, but animals hear it too! >-------------------------------------------- >No need to try to focus on it. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > I disagree. >----------------------------------------- >We >have no precise understanding and confuse hearing with thinking about the >source of the sound, the plane. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If we pay careful attention (a bif IF), we can come to know the >diffrerence. But we have to pay attention! >--------------------------------------- > Would you agree that only panna (or consciousness with panna) can know the difference between moments of hearing consciousness and moments of thinking about the sound being heard? But the conventional action of 'paying attention' is something that can be kusala or akusala, and if kusala may be with or without panna. So is it not more helpful to emphasise the the arising of panna than the paying of attention? >Gradually we can learn the anattaness of >realities precisely. It has nothing to do with luck, it is all due to the >right conditions. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If our own volitional actions have no bearing on it, then that is exactly >what I mean by "luck". Good luck if the conditions "happen" to be useful, and >bad luck otherwise. But if we follow the path of cultivation laid out by the >Buddha, then we are no longer depending on dumb luck. >----------------------------------------- > Yes, volitional actions do of course have a bearing, but volitional action may be kusala or aksuala. So again it is really the kusala that is key, rather than conventional volitional action; the mind-state rather than the act. Jon 47187 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Sarah, and all > > In the recorded talk I mentioned above, A. Sujin says that we want > > to go to the left, and to the right. We want to find comfort in > > conventional realities, and develop our understanding of ultimate > > realities as well. (This second sentence is just my interpretation > > what she means by "going right and left." Please correct me if I'm > > wrong.) > ... > S: (I don't remember the particular talk...but let me add a suggestion). > > Usually we think the solution to our difficulties is to turn left or > right. Ph: Your interpretation which follows is interesting and helpful, and I'd like to discuss it, but I really think A. Sujin was talking about something a bit different. In the talk, Nina is saying that Lodewijk is not comfortable with this "there is no Nina" kind of teaching, that he thinks Dhamma should be presented in a more....palatable way. (My word.) That people cannot accept that kind of hard teaching. Then A. Sujin says that we want to go to the right and we want to go to the left. I really think it's more of a "have your cake and eat it" kind of thing. We want to live in the light of conventional truths, and in the light of ultimate truths, but - she implies- that the ultimate solution is to go toward the ultimate truths. Sorry to paraphrase like this. Again, as soon as I hear the talk again I will post the passage. I have mentionned this so often than I am implying there is something terribly profound in it, but it's just really another talk about concepts vs realities. Now on to your interpretation. >For example, we might think the answer to helping parents is to > decide whether to visit, phone or to send a gift. > > However, whichever way we turn, whichever offering we make or don't make, > it's conditioned already....namas and rupas which are anatta -- not self > who decides. We may make all sorts of good intentions, as we've discussed > before, but it's jsut thinking and we may or may not act as we plan. Ph: Absolutely. We do our best, that's all, when the time comes. Or we don't. > It always comes back to the understanding of dhammas which are conditioned > now as you stress. Ph: I was thinking today about the conditioning power of suttas. For example, if I read the sutta about not being able to repay our debt to our parents even if we carried them around on our shoulders, bathed in their urine and feces and so on, it depends entirely on my accumulations whether that will have any conditioning truth for me. I can think about it and feel motivated by it, but the real motivation, the real conditioning is going on or not going on in a way of which I can only have an inkling. I have heard a fair bit recently about natural decisive support conditions (pakattu panissaya) which A. Sujin teaches in a very broad sense as being all dhammas, everything we've experienced in this life and past lives, if I understood correctly. Everything. I haven't yet heard of the kind of relativity of these conditioning factors that Rob M mentions in his book - things that have happened recently, with intensity, with frequency having more conditioning power than other things. This makes sense to me. A sutta read this morning with clarity should have more conditioning power, now, I would think, than a sutta read 3 years ago when sprawling slightly drunk on the beach. Of course, the conditionng power of suttas we have read is just one factor out of so many that we cannot begin to fathom. The Buddha worked out conditions in detail - we would be foolish to hope to do so. A bit of a ramble there, Sarah, as usual. Thanks again for you support and for the latest disk full of talks, which I received yesterday. Yum yum. Metta, Phil 47188 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth jonoabb Hi Phil Philip wrote: > I will reflect on the value of a lot of phone calls. Probably that >would help my father more than my mother - presumedly folks with >Alzheimer's would benefit more from a physical presence, which I >will rarely be able to provide, than verbal communication. (Even at >the best of times, my mum was not one to carry on a logical >conversation! ) But we'll see what happens. > > I think that's the right approach (reflecting on things and seeing what happens). Each person must make their own choices, as best they can. There are no 'right' answers for the situational problems. > I've been reflecting now and then about why I haven't been more >upset about this than I have. Whether it's a characteristic coldness >about loved ones, or a kind of wisdom, perhaps accumulated from past >lives (since I've always been like this) or both, or what. No >conclusions, of course, but one thing is for sure - whenever worry >comes up about it, my mind skips ahead away from worrying about my >parents to worrying about me and Naomi. For the last few years I've >been worrying about out future quite often, so this new sad story >has me churning up new sad stories about me and Naomi. The mind >churns up so many sad stories, so many worries, so much suffering >before the fact. > > Again, different people have different triggers for dosa reactions! Jon 47189 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 236 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (j) philofillet Hi all > Shamelessness does not shrink from evil because it is not ashamed > of it and does not abhor it. The "Paramattha Mañjúså" compares > it to a domestic pig which does not abhor filth. Hiri (moral shame) is one of the "guardians of the world." How often does it arise in daily life and help us to abstain from shameful deeds through body, speech and mind. And every time it arises, perhaps it is conditioned to arise again. This is the sort of thing that can give us courage and feel we are making progress with truly repulsive defilements, even as we patiently look at the less harmful ones of which daily life is built, for worldlings. (Not unharmful, because they accumulate and who knows what can come of that?) In a talk, I heard again A. Sujin say that she doesn't worry about her akusala. I think it is the latter kind of akusala she is referring to, not the kind that is of the degree of immorality. Nobody wants to be reborn in a hell. Which brings us to recklessness. > As to recklessness, it does not abhor, draw back from evil because > it does not see the danger of akusala and it does not fear its > consequences such as an unhappy rebirth. The "Paramattha > Mañjúså" compares recklessness to a moth which is attracted to > the fire, although this is dangerous for it. Ph: I've often mentionned the simile of seizing an iron rod, one end smeared with feces, and the other burning red hot. The olatter of course is recklessness, the former shamelessness. > Are we enslaved by pleasant experiences? We may even commit evil through > body, speech or mind on account of them. Then recklessness does not > fear the danger of akusala, it does not care about the consequences > of akusala. > > The proximate cause of shamelessness is lack of respect for > oneself and the proximate cause of recklessness is lack of respect > for someone else. In order to have more understanding of this, > we should first study their opposites: moral shame, hiri, and moral > fear of blame, ottappa. Shame has a subjective origin, it is influenced > by oneself; its proximate cause is self-respect. Fear of blame has > an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate > cause is respect for someone else. Ph: I don't quite get this. "The proximate cause of recklessness is lack of respect for someone else." I think in Rob M's book he refers to the Golden Rule to express this idea, which I remember I asked him about, puzzled. It seems to me recklessness is also very subjective - having fear of suffering in hell or an animal realm because of one's behaviour feels pretty subjective and personal. Praise to hiri and otappa, the guardians of Phil! Metta, Phil 47190 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/2/05 9:55:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard I've been following with interest your discussion with Nina and Lodewijk on the need for the conventional action of paying attention in order for awareness or insight to arise. upasaka@... wrote: >... >Nina adds: >I asked Lodewijk: Howard asks whether there should not be an intentional >action to concentrate on nama and rupa. > >Lodewijk: That is not right, than there is still an idea of self. >---------------------------------------- >Howard: > There is the need to intend to attend, and there is te need to then pay >attention! For the impermanent, unsatisfying, and empty nature of dhammas to >register, one needs to pay attention in order to really "see". > A couple of comments about what you describe here as the intention to attend and the paying of attention. First, although you don't say this directly, I get the impression (my apologies if I am wrong) that you see the intentional paying of attention to the present reality as being the same thing as awareness or insight. -------------------------------------- Howard: Nope, not at all. (Apology accepted.;-) ------------------------------------- I think we need to be very clear that awareness and insight are aspects of panna, and panna does not arise just because we decide to pay attention to the present reality, or rather, to what we take to be the present reality. To put that another way, paying attention may be kusala or akusala, and it is obviously only the kusala kind, arising with panna, that would be of any benefit here. ------------------------------------- Howard: Inasmuch as I do not conflate paying attention with wisdom, this isn't relevant. ------------------------------------ So the key must be the arising of panna, not paying attention. ---------------------------------- Howard: Key to what? I will choose to pay attention as best I can. If you consider that unimnportant, okay - your choice. --------------------------------- Secondly, as you have recently agreed in another thread, all forms of kusala can and do arise without being immediately preceded by the conscious intention for its arising. So it is not correct to say there must be intention to attend first. ----------------------------------- Howard: Without consistent, and hopefully habituated, intention to pay attention our attention will typically arise only when we are *intersted* in what is arising, which generally means when what arises is pleasant and craved (or the diametric opposite). It is not good to have our attention led by the nose by our defilements! ------------------------------------ If there is a proper appreciation of the importance of attending to the nature of a presently arising dhamma (a sense of urgency), that attending can occur, at a level appropriate to one's accumulated understanding, without any conscious intention that it should do so. ------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, yes - "can" occur. But it is far better to*cultivate* ongoing attention, Jon. Our study of the Dhamma makes it clear how important paying attention is. It is so wonderful that the Buddha emphasized that. But if we don't pay attention to his teachings except as intellectual diversion, then we will not benefit from them. ------------------------------------- (Another point to consider in relation to this 'intention to attend' is this: If the actual paying of attention is the awareness/insight that is the 'target' of the intention, what is the nature of the intention to attend. --------------------------------------- Howard: That is a red herring, Jon. I haven't said that, and I don't believe that - so this matter is entirely irrelevant. ---------------------------------------- Is it itself kusala? It's obviously not samatha or vipassana bhavana, so what kind of kusala is it, and what factors condition its arising?) >The answer is in the experience of this moment and understanding it. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Indeed. But one must pay attention! >-------------------------------------- >... >A noisy plane passed over and I said: see, we do not have to look for sound, >it is there already, and so is hearing. >-------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Yes, but animals hear it too! >-------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No comment on that, Jon? :-) -------------------------------------------------- >No need to try to focus on it. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > I disagree. >----------------------------------------- >We >have no precise understanding and confuse hearing with thinking about the >source of the sound, the plane. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If we pay careful attention (a bif IF), we can come to know the >diffrerence. But we have to pay attention! >--------------------------------------- > Would you agree that only panna (or consciousness with panna) can know the difference between moments of hearing consciousness and moments of thinking about the sound being heard? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Why do you ask? How does this address what we have been discussing? To distinguish anything obviously requires at least some degree of understanding. I don't get the point. ---------------------------------------- But the conventional action of 'paying attention' is something that can be kusala or akusala, and if kusala may be with or without panna. So is it not more helpful to emphasise the the arising of panna than the paying of attention? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know what it means to "emphasise the arising of panna". What we emphasize in a conversation is a side issue. What our cultivational practices are is another. Also, why compare one topic of discussion with another as more helpful than the second? We are, in fact, discussing the matter of paying attention. To say that to discuss something else is better amounts to saying that you'd rather not discuss the issue at hand. But there is, in fact, no necessity to discuss the matter at hand. You may choose to or not. ----------------------------------------- >Gradually we can learn the anattaness of >realities precisely. It has nothing to do with luck, it is all due to the >right conditions. >----------------------------------------- >Howard: > If our own volitional actions have no bearing on it, then that is exactly >what I mean by "luck". Good luck if the conditions "happen" to be useful, and >bad luck otherwise. But if we follow the path of cultivation laid out by the >Buddha, then we are no longer depending on dumb luck. >----------------------------------------- > Yes, volitional actions do of course have a bearing, but volitional action may be kusala or aksuala. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So what is your point, Jon? That is a truism. But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous. --------------------------------------------- So again it is really the kusala that is key, rather than conventional volitional action; the mind-state rather than the act. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a specious and useless conclusion as I see it. (As to why, please see the content of this entire post.) ---------------------------------------------- Jon ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47191 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: Trying to start a fire with a soggy piece of wood rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > BTW Chanda is not lobha. > > No, but chanda is desire, in one meaning of the word. I found that > sutta in the index under "desire" > > BTW, are you thinking of coming up to Tokyo any day soon? I'd love > to meet you again. > > Metta, > Phil Dear Phil, Kusala chanda arises together with alobha (non-attachment) so I think it is a kind of sincere, relaxed interest- desire is not the right word I think. I'll be spending a night in Tokyo on the 4th of next month, hope to see you then. Then in Bangkok for a week mid-september and be back in Tokyo in october for a couple of nights. robert > > > > , 47192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. nilovg Hi Tep, I suggest that you continue just as you did, and now and then I add something from the Commentary. I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like this, why should it matter? So I hope you will continue your good work and that Han will also help. Nina. op 02-07-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I have a suggestion to you, Sarah. Since you seem to know a > lot how to read and interpret the Breathing Treatise "the right way", so > why don't you take over the presentation from now on? 47193 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:07am Subject: Re: Sandaka Sutta lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear everybody, > > I'm looking for the Sandaka Sutta > in which the Buddha talked of > 4 types of false religion and > 4 other types of unsatisfactory > but not necessarily false religion. > > Thank you in advance. > > Metta, > > KKT Hi KKT, It is MN76. Not in Access To Insight. Larry 47194 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:13am Subject: Re: Sandaka Sutta lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > Dear everybody, > > > > I'm looking for the Sandaka Sutta > > in which the Buddha talked of > > 4 types of false religion and > > 4 other types of unsatisfactory > > but not necessarily false religion. > > > > Thank you in advance. > > > > Metta, > > > > KKT > > Hi KKT, > > It is MN76. Not in Access To Insight. > > Larry Here it is: http://www.vipassana.info/076-sandaka-e1.htm 47195 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - > I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like > this, why should it matter? No, it doesn't matter when people have different views. However, "in a forum like this" anything can happen -- such as getting reprimanded for making a joke that doesn't hurt anyone. The work will continue until it is finsihed, as long as there is an appreciative audience. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > I suggest that you continue just as you did, and now and then I add > something from the Commentary. > I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like > this, why should it matter? > So I hope you will continue your good work and that Han will also help. > Nina. > op 02-07-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > I have a suggestion to you, Sarah. Since you seem to know a > > lot how to read and interpret the Breathing Treatise "the right way", so > > why don't you take over the presentation from now on? 47196 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard {Attn. : Sarah, Jon and all } - I already have read your next message(#47185) that changed the word "sankharically" to "conceptually". Anapanasati bhavana with 16 vatthu(grounds) was strongly supported by the Buddha and the Arahants such as Sariputta and Ananda. And yet, the meditation scheme has been interpreted in many different ways, intellectually as well as unintellectually. There are some with strong views, who have enough courage to *substitute* their own interpretations for the original "conventional practice teachings" and that, in my sincere opinion, is unacceptable. It is nice to know that in the world today, 2548 years after the Buddha's parinibbana, there are people who are capable of understanding the Anapanasati sutta enough to 'call a spade a spade'. Howard is one of them. Howard's Clear Understandings: ------------------------------------------------ -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" the "reality insights". -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level". -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". Tep: I particularly like your third point which, in my own blunt words, warns that if we continue with the mumbo-jumbo intellectual understanding of the Breathing Meditation without earnestly practicing it, then we will blow up the chance to actually "cultivate" the real wisdom. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Sarah and all) - > > In a message dated 7/1/05 9:05:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, Sarah and Nina {Attn.: Larry and Tom }- > > > That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several > issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise so > far. > 47197 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and all) - In a message dated 7/2/05 2:24:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard {Attn. : Sarah, Jon and all } - I already have read your next message(#47185) that changed the word "sankharically" to "conceptually". Anapanasati bhavana with 16 vatthu(grounds) was strongly supported by the Buddha and the Arahants such as Sariputta and Ananda. And yet, the meditation scheme has been interpreted in many different ways, intellectually as well as unintellectually. There are some with strong views, who have enough courage to *substitute* their own interpretations for the original "conventional practice teachings" and that, in my sincere opinion, is unacceptable. It is nice to know that in the world today, 2548 years after the Buddha's parinibbana, there are people who are capable of understanding the Anapanasati sutta enough to 'call a spade a spade'. Howard is one of them. Howard's Clear Understandings: ------------------------------------------------ -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" the "reality insights". -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the nonconceptual level". -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". Tep: I particularly like your third point which, in my own blunt words, warns that if we continue with the mumbo-jumbo intellectual understanding of the Breathing Meditation without earnestly practicing it, then we will blow up the chance to actually "cultivate" the real wisdom. Sincerely, Tep ============================= As I have already made clear, we happily have the same perspective on Buddhist practice! :-) I thank you very much for the generous praise you offer me in this post, though I admit to being a drop embarrassed by it. I also hasten to add, however, that I would have been a bit more comfortable had you responded just a wee bit more "softly" in this post and with words a bit less "blunt" (as you put it). ;-) But as to objective content, we are entirely in agreement, and it pleases me to have a friend who sees these matters as I do. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47198 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, all - {Attn.: Jon and Howard} - There has been an interesting "exchange" between Howard & Jon on appropriate attention with (cultivated) intention versus accumulating panna without intention or attention at all ( see #47190 ). Are they different? (I) Jon's point has been that everything boils down to kusala mind- state: it is the basis for the arising of panna through accumulation, and panna is everything -- there is no need to do anything else, just be patient. Jon: "If there is a proper appreciation of the importance of attending to the nature of a presently arising dhamma (a sense of urgency), that attending can occur, at a level appropriate to one's accumulated understanding, without any conscious intention that it should do so. "So again it is really the kusala that is key, rather than conventional volitional action; the mind-state rather than the act. "But the conventional action of 'paying attention' is something that can be kusala or akusala, and if kusala may be with or without panna. So is it not more helpful to emphasise the the arising of panna than the paying of attention? Tep: Howard's point has been that we must train ourselves to cultivate a habit to pay attention to the arising realities, and by appropriate attention (yoniso-manasikara) we can then avoid or eradicate defilements (asavas). Howard: "Without consistent, and hopefully habituated, intention to pay attention our attention will typically arise only when we are *intersted* in what is arising, which generally means when what arises is pleasant and craved (or the diametric opposite). It is not good to have our attention led by the nose by our defilements! "But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous. Tep: Whose view do you agree with and why? Sincerely, Tep ===== 47199 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - I was surprised by your bursting energy level today -- how many posts did you make? >Tep's Notes: > >1) The "nine aspects are a body" here consist of {zeal, gladness, >equanimity} x {long in-breath more subtle than before, long out-breath >more subtle than before, long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle >than before}, 3x3 = 9. > Jon: I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I think the nine aspects would be the things itemised as (a) to (i) in par. 195, namely, (long in-breath, long out-breath and long in-breath and out-breath) x ( without zeal or gladness, with zeal, with gladness). Tep: My first reading also tempted me to straightforwardly count (a) to (i) and come up with the number 9. However, the second reading discovered that (c) alone consists of two distinct aspects: 1. long in- breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent; 2. zeal arises with long in- breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent. And in (i) there are two distinct aspects: 1. Through gladness he has long in-breaths and out- breaths reckoned by extent; 2. Long in-breaths and out-breaths through gladness that results in established equanimity. So I discovered the right nine aspects in (c) - (i) instead of (a) - (i). Jon: (a) contemplation of the sign body in serenity is knowledge, and (b) contemplation of the mental body and material body in insight is knowledge. ... I am guessing that 'serenity' is a translation of 'samatha', and 'insight' a translation of 'vipassana'. Tep: Yes, the two words are correct, according to the Pali words as listed in the book's INDEX. Jon: What caught my attention was the association of 'sign-body' (nimitta?) with samatha and 'mental body and material body' (nama and rupa) with vipassana bhavana. In other words, insight development is associated with nama and rupa, but not with nimitta. Tep: Yes, "insight development is associated with nama and rupa, but not with nimitta" is my understanding too. By the way, the word nimitta is not limited to the kasina's mental images (i.e. preparatory image, acquired image, and counter-image). See Nyanatiloka's Dictionary. http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nimitta.htm Jon: My understanding is that while both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana involve the arising of panna, the panna would be of different levels/degrees. Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. Thanks very much for all the work you put into the series. Much appreciated. Tep: I don't understand "Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma". I am grateful to your feedback on the series. As I told Nina in a today's message, I would continue when there was a (detectable) appreciative audience. Why waste time if there are only "bad reviews"? Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > I've been following your series with interest, but don't often find time > to make a comment. > 47200 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi Howard - I am sorry to have caused you some embarrassment, but the praise was not too much. By the way, no actors have ever complained about getting an over-size oscar. :-) Of course, I can take your advice and try to make my words less blunt, without being too sharp either, next time. Howard, I am happy too to have a friend like you, who strongly believes in the patipatti aspect of Buddhism. Hopefully, one day most DSG members may aslo see it the same way: i.e. the three components (pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha) are equally important. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and all) - > (snipped) > As I have already made clear, we happily have the same perspective on Buddhist practice! :-) I thank you very much for the generous praise you offer me in this post, though I admit to being a drop embarrassed by it. I also hasten to add, however, that I would have been a bit more comfortable had you responded just a wee bit more "softly" in this post and with words a bit less "blunt" (as you put it). ;-) But as to objective content, we are entirely in agreement, and it pleases me to have a friend who sees these matters as I do. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 47201 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. ksheri3 Hi All, If I may step into this mud-slinging here it seems that Tep has the misinterpretation of Nina's meanings and vice versa. Look at the possiblity of the view thru a fly's eye or in the child's kaliedescope: there are multiple versions different ways to view the topic or the statement. It could be different pairs of shoes which can give the Point of View. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > > I does not matter if people have different interpretations in a forum like > > this, why should it matter? > > > No, it doesn't matter when people have different views. However, "in a > forum like this" anything can happen -- such as getting reprimanded for > making a joke that doesn't hurt anyone. > > The work will continue until it is finsihed, as long as there is an > appreciative audience. <...> 47202 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:32am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest ksheri3 Hi Egbert, Oh, I see, when you say "now where were we" I take it that I'm the platinum blonde on the casting couch and you're the Niles or Frazier type that resembles the meglamania which possesses the middle-class and the ABSOLUTE NEEDS of the mechanics, greese monkeys, called psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay I'll bite, nibble at this bait only to tempt your senses all the more with the meal that you believe yourself will be reeling in for the pleasure of the group you are a part of, see the proper definition of an orgy by/for Caligula. It could be a Bacchanalian orgy since I've been known to get lossed in that x-tian orgy called Carnivale or Mardi Gras. ;)) Yes, where were we? --- colette wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > > wrote: > Hi Colette, > > Now, where were we? :-) > > > > If the foundation of a building is flawed, the > entire building is > > unsafe. > > > > > > "one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par > excellence. They > denote > > > quantity. Quantity is not a property of > experience. > > > > colette: I disagree! Quantity is a property of > experience since > > numbers denote quantity I can say that x% of my > life has been > devoted > > to the study of...? <...> > > ---------------- > Fair enough. When you're thinking about numbers > that's whats > happening. What I should have said is that quantity > is not a property > of anything other than thinking. colette: let me seperate this here so that I can maintain my consciouness. I agree with the above. ------- Now, I'm saying > that, hoping that > you'll agree that quantity doesn't play a role with > seeing, hearing, > feeling, smelling, tasting. colette: I have just been sitting here reading The Stream of Consciousness by William James: "How comes it about that a man reading something aloud for the first time is ables immediately to emphasize all his words aright, unless from the very first he have a sense of at least the form of the sentence yet to come, whichsense is fused with his consciousness of the present word, and modifies its emphasis in his mind so as to make him give it the proper accent as he utters it?" Here I'm representing that the quantity of experience has made the impression on the mind where the experience of the sense has been categorized and is ready to be accessed as a person accesses their computer files. Statement Vanquished, Points Colette, Advantage Colette. ;)) ---------------- The difference between > these five senses > and thinking is that thinking is learnt and the > others are not. colette: again, thinking in a particular fashion is learnt behavior, conditioned behavior. <....> It can be a state where the pain is conditioned to be overlooked, such as the case of myself and the numerous times my body has been put back together by the wisdom of surgeons -- I can overlook the pain in my mind, transcend the pain, but that only serves to place me into other states of consciousness where I find enjoyment by experiencing something not yet known or experienced by my mind. No time, sorry the group can take the rest of you as Sushi. No time to prepare the meal. toodles, colette 47203 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 3:45pm Subject: Driven only by fear do men go for refuge to many places philofillet Hi all I heard this passage from Dhammapada that really resonated: "Driven only by fear do men go for refuge to many places - to hillls, woods, groves, trees and shrines. Such, indeed, is no safe refuge: such is not the refuge supreme. Not by resorting to such a refuge is oen released from all suffering. He who has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Teaching and his Order penetrates with transcedental wisdom the Four Noble Truths - suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the Noble Eightfold Truth leading to the cessation of suffering. This indeed is the safe refuge, this is the refuge supreme. Having gone to such a refuge one is released from all suffering." (Dhp 188-192) This made me think of the sutta that Sarah mentionned as the one that had inspired her the most - I can't find the link at the moment. It is not by staying in a mountain temple, or by sitting on a meditation cushion with attention to the breath, or by applying oneself with devout intent to keeping the precepts that one penetrates the Four Noble Truths. It is only wisdom (panna) that penetrates the truth, and we can begin ever-so-gradually to develop wisdom here and now, wherever we are, and without rites and rituals and the comfort they bring. Thus we speak of courage along with good cheer and patience. On the other hand, the Buddha did teach that there are caves and trees, go there and meditate. It would be foolish to claim that there can not be good Dhamma in retreating from the world at times, and that can include retreating to a meditation cushion. But do we do so in a natural way that suits our lifestyle, in response to conditions accompanied by right understanding - or does it come from fear and fear-driven desire for fast results? It is hard to be human, and religions around the world are rooted in fear of death, fear of the unknown. Are concentrating on the breath or memorizing and intoning suttas simply subtle methods to evade this fear? For me, I know they were - thus I am letting go of such intentional practices until there is clearer understanding of my motivation. And thus I have such respect for Nina and others who have persevered without the comfort of rituals for so long with such good cheer and patience and courage. (At least as far as we can see here - we don't know our own citta most of the time let alone the other's...) Metta, Phil 47204 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation lbidd2 Tep: "Whose view do you agree with and why?" Hi Tep, I like my own view best: "paying attention" is a conceptual fabrication, like a "tree"; there's no such reality. It would be better to call it "prompted mindfulness". Larry 47205 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Howard), I don't have time to write now -- but would also just like to add my encouragement to you to continue with your series. My comments/reflections in my last post were certainly not meant to be discouraging or all your hard work in any way. In fact it is this work of yours which is stimulating the discussions and various reflections of mine and others. I'm very glad to see Howard is also joining in (and Jon W of course!!)-- I hope others will too. I saw you raised some good points in your reply to me which I'll look forward to discussing later perhaps. I do apologise if I ever sound as though I wish to 'take over' this or any other thread -- quite the opposite of how I feel!! Definitely your 'baby', Tep:). In appreciation, metta, Sarah ====== 47206 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. lbidd2 Hi Tep, The painfulness of disagreement is due to attachment. That is where the real work lies. Try to see that and learn from it. We are all afflicted by this affliction. It isn't easy to penetrate. No need to worry about what others think or do. Let your view be just a view. Larry 47207 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? lbidd2 Avidu: "My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.." Hi Avidu, May I suggest that you begin at the beginning. Do you doubt the truth of dukkha? Larry 47208 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - (Howard, Sarah, Tom, Larry and James) - The more I read your post, the more I see your subtle sensitiveness to the feeling of others. But, as James may agree with me, by being direct and even blunt (like I am) you may cut down on people's trying to second guess what your real message is. >Tep: Congratulations for your so-far most direct answers (no beating around the bush) to my questions. > Jon: Is this bush related to the George W variety? Tep : Ha! Ha! that is a good joke, Jon. Now I know you didn't think you were the victim of my "bad behavior". -------------------------------------- >Tep's Final remark: Is our successful conclusion this time due to the >fact that you've dropped the 'leadership attitude', or is it because you >have no 'leading points' or branches in your answers, or because I've >become less argumentative? > > Jon: ... Or is it because you've been am-bushed? (Just kidding, of course) Tep: Yes. Perhaps, I should create a cute nickname for myself too. How about, Tep "ambushed" Sastri ? --------------------------------------- Jon: [relating to the agreed Point #1] There are many references in the texts where the sequence of progress towards enlightenment is described as including the attainment of the 4 mundane jhanas, and/or where the attainment of enlightenment is attained with the jhanas as basis. Is it possible that these references are to be read in the light of our Agreed Point, that is to say, that for those who were already of highly developed samatha there was the prospect of both mundane jhana and enlightenment? In particular, could the mindfulness of breathing section of the Satipatthana Sutta be read as a teaching addressed to monks who werealready skilled in the practice of anapanasati samadhi (mindfulness of breathing as a subject of contemplation in samatha bhavana)? Tep: The anapanasati bhavana as taught in MN 118 (same as the thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, para 183, Breathing Treatise) has nothing to do with "mundane jhana". The paragraphs # 16 - # 168 show clearly that the 16-ground Anapanasati is a powerful method for developing the ariya-maggas, starting from the four rupa jhanas (as defined in DN 22), going all the way to the 4 arupa-jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and then the four ariya-maggas. In SN LIV.13 (Ananda Sutta) the Buddha told the Ven. Ananda as follows, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing(anapanasati), when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion". Putting the information in the Breathing Treatise (para 16 - 168) together with SN LIV.13, there should be no doubts about the nature of the samatha(8 jhanas) as being the important foundation of the Arahatta- magga & phala development. Jon, I also believe that Anapanasati itself may be too advanced for novices. Why? The long explanation follows. (I) SN LIV.13 states that Anapanasati brings Satipatthana to completetion, and MN 10 (Satipatthana sutta) presents only the first Anapa tetrad (a samatha bhavana) endowed with the "common vipassana components" {i.e. 1. "One remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body". 2. "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body (feeling, mind, mental quality)' is maintained [simply] to the extent of knowledge & recollection. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world".}. These two vipassana components together is less than the 4 anupassanas in the 4th tetrad, though. The 2nd and 3rd tetrads are equivalent to the vedana- and the citta- nupassana of MN 10. So the Anapanasati is roughly equivalent to the four foundations of mindfulness in terms of content. (II) The Visuddhimagga IX, 114 - 118 tells a story from AN IV.299-301 about the Buddha's advice to a bhikkhu who asked him, "... it would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that, having heard the Blessed One's Dhamma, I may dwell alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent and self-exerted". The what-to-do step-by- step instruction is as follows. 1. 'Bhikkhu, you should train thus: " My mind shall be steadied, quite stedied internally, and arisen evil unprofitable things shall not obsess my mind and remain". You should train thus.' [ A basic concentration consisting in mere unification of mind internally in the sense of in oneself.] 2. 'As soon as your mind has become steadied, quite steadied internally, bhukkhu, and arisen evil unprofitable things do not obsess your mind and remain, then you should train thus: "The mind- deliverance of lovingkindness will be developed by me, frequently practiced, made the vehicle, made the foundation, established, consolidated, and properly undertaken". You should train thus, bhikkhu'. 3. 'As soon as this concentration has been thus developed by you, bhikkhu, and frequently practiced, then you should develop this concentration with applied thought and sustained thought ... and you should develop it accompanied by equanimity'. Co. The meaning is this : 'Bhikkhu, when this basic concentration has been developed by you by means of lovingkindness, then, instead of resting content with just that much, you should make the basic concentration reach quadruple and quintuple jhana in other objects by [further] developing it in the way beginning "With applied thought" ' 4.'As soon as this concentration has been thus developed by you, bhikkhu, and frequently practiced, then you should train thus: "The mind- deliverance of compassion will be developed by me, . ..." 'you should effect its [further] development by means of quadruple and quintuple jhana in other objects, this [further] development being preceded by the remaining divine abidings of compassion and the rest'. You should train thus, bhikkhu'. 5. 'As soon as this concentration has been thus developed by you, bhikkhu, and frequently practiced, then you should train thus:" I shall dwell contemplating the body as a body" ', etc. A conclusion I can draw from the above is that the bhikkhu must train in basic concentration (Step 1), lovingkindness (Step 2), 4 rupa-jhanas (Step 3), mind-deliverance of compassion or karuna (Step 4), before he advances to kayanupassana in Step 5. Yet, Step 5 is equivalent only to the first tetrad of the Anapanasati. Therefore both Anapanasati and Satipatthana in MN 10 are too advanced for beginners, unless they have completed Steps 1 - 4. Let me stop here since the message has become too long. I'll make a revisit a few days from now. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > (snipped) > I am happy to treat the present thread as (happily) concluded, but I'd > like to leave you with a couple of questions/comments arising from our Agreed Points that you may wish to consider further (now or later). > > [AP.1] -- " ..my understanding is that the Buddha always taught insight > development, but that the delivery of that message varied depending > on his audience, for example, whether they were monks or lay people, > whether they had developed samatha to a high degree or not". > > There are many references in the texts where the sequence of progress towards enlightenment is described as including the attainment of the 4 mundane jhanas, and/or where the attainment of enlightenment is attained with the jhanas as basis. Is it possible that these references are to be read in the light of our Agreed Point, that is to say, that for those who were already of highly developed samatha there was the prospect of both mundane jhana and enlightenment? > > In particular, could the mindfulness of breathing section of the > Satipatthana Sutta be read as a teaching addressed to monks who were already skilled in the practice of anapanasati samadhi (mindfulness of breathing as a subject of contemplation in samatha bhavana)? > > [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". > > When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of > samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. > > Consider the following passage from CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 (i.e., the translator's summary of the commentaries). > > >>>>>>>>>> > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics > of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. > > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas *occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana*. > > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before > reaching the path. ... > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. > >>>>>>>>>> > > So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). > > Hoping there are not too many 'leading' questions/points for you here ;-)) > > Jon Dubya 47209 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi All, As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. ===== Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. Thus jokes abound such as the one on why the houses of Buddhists have dirt in the corners – because they don't allow even their vacuum cleaner any attachments. Some misguided pseudo-Buddhists criticise those living a moral life as being attached to their precepts and thus praise immoral action as a sign of deep wisdom. Bah! Others in traditional Buddhist circles create fear of deep meditation by incorrectly stating that you will only get attached to the Jhânas. It all goes too far. Perhaps the pinnacle of mischievous misinformation was said by Rajneesh who claimed "I am so detached, I am not even attached to detachment" and thus conveniently excused all his excesses. The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un-Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind. Nibbana is the letting go once and for all of greed, hatred and delusion, the seeds of rebirth. Parinibbana is the final letting go of body and mind (the Five Khandhas). It is wrong to suggest that any of these stages of letting go are the same as attachment. The path is like a ladder. One grasps the rung above and lets go of the rung below to pull oneself up. Soon, the rung just grasped is the rung one is now standing on. Now is the time to let go of that rung as one grasps an even higher rung to raise oneself further. If one never grasped anything, one would remain spiritually stupid. To those without wisdom, letting go may often appear as attachment. For example a bird on the branch of a tree at night appears to be attaching firmly to the branch, but it has actually let go and is fully asleep. When a bird lets go and the muscles around its claws begin to relax they close on the branch. The more it relaxes, the more the claws tighten. That's why you never see a bird fall off a perch even when they are asleep. It may look like attachment but, in fact, it is letting go. Letting go often leads to stillness, not moving from where you are, which is why it is sometimes mistaken as attachment. So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path for it will lead to Nibbana. And don't forget to purchase the attachments for your vacuum cleaner too! ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 47211 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] egberdina Hi Jon and James and all, Please read with a jar of honey at hand, and self-medicate as required :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > Thanks for clarifying your previous posts, and my apologies for any > misunderstanding on my part. > > Let me restate the point I was trying to make. You said: > James> The Satipatthana Sutta lists a variety of activities, from breathing to contemplating the 32 parts of the body and various dead and decomposed bodies, and yet they don't cover all possible activities in the world. This tells me that the activities listed are more conducive to insight. > Jon> The 'activities' you refer to here are all contained in the section on mindfulness of the body, so if they are indeed conducive to insight then it would be insight into the characteristic of rupas only. Now no such activities are given in relation to mindfulness of feelings, consciousness or dhammas, so I am wondering how you would understand the development of insight into those dhammas to occur, i.e., in the absence of any given 'conducive activites'. Herman> James already has made the point more than adequately that rupas in the suttas are not treated independently from namas, you do not have one without the other. Consequently, there are no characteristics of "rupas only" to be known, in the suttas, that is. I do not know for sure, but it seems that Jon reads the satipatthana sutta with abhidhamma glasses, and again I do not know for sure, but I think James reads the same sutta with sutta glasses. I have no doubt that all of us at dsg wish to be of assistance to one another, and I also think that a prerequisite for any discussion to be therapeutic is that sender and recipient need to be in the same "space". It would be rather funny if a well-meaning physician handed a copy of Gray's Anatomy to each of his patients with the advice to study up on it and return at a later date so that the doctor could discuss the problem at hand in his own terms. Wisdom would dictate (it did at least in the case of the Buddha) that the therapist meets the patient where the patient is at. A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where they are at. (I am not suggesting for a moment that either Jon or James see themselves or each other as therapists or patients, or that either believe they hold a superior view.) Kind Regards Herman 47212 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth egberdina Hi Jon, (I'm not putting Phil in the heading because I'm not replying to or questioning or doubting anything he said). > > Philip wrote: > > > I will reflect on the value of a lot of phone calls. Probably that > >would help my father more than my mother - presumedly folks with > >Alzheimer's would benefit more from a physical presence, which I > >will rarely be able to provide, than verbal communication. (Even at > >the best of times, my mum was not one to carry on a logical > >conversation! ) But we'll see what happens. > > > > Jon wrote: > I think that's the right approach (reflecting on things and seeing what happens). Each person must make their own choices, as best they can. > There are no 'right' answers for the situational problems. > I am writing mainly because your little paragraph above pricked my interest. It did so because you are speaking sutta-speak here. Which I do not wish to dissuade you from. But in fairness to Howard and James and Tep, whose understanding of the Satipatthana sutta you nitpick to a thousand unrecognisable pieces, how does reflecting come about? How does seeing what happens come about? And whatever you answer, how do those things come about? And those? And those? I would prefer it if you didn't answer. Kind Regards Herman 47213 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 9:49pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Jon and James and all, A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma > view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that > an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired > outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where > they are at. Hi Herman Nice to see you back. Honey sales are soaring throughout the DSG world as a result! (-: Only joking, but you might like to have your jar and a large spoon handy just in case. Interested in the sutta-view/abhidhamma-view dichotomy but am afraid it doesn't help me much. Sutta-view would have to be divided further into James-sutta-view, Andrew-sutta-view and so on because it seems to me that many suttas are so lacking in detail as to give rise to multifarious and discordant interpretations. If there is a sutta that can only be interpreted in one possible way, I'd like to have another look at it. The same comments probably apply to abhidhamma-view. So ... I don't see any problem with people discussing the various meanings of suttas by giving their personal interpretations and cross- referencing them to the Abhidhamma and commentaries. The Sutta/Abhidhamma dichotomy is a red herring IMHO. The true question is - what is meant here? Do we just stick with the natural meaning of the words provided by the translator? Or are we really required to push further and look at how the meanings might be affected by core teachings like anatta and conditionality (i.e. the wider context)? As you might've guessed, I'm a "wider context" guy because I feel you are more likely to get a result closer to the Buddha's original intention. I also find it helpful to remember that spoken discourse at the time of the Buddha was governed by lots of rules and regulations about how to put and answer questions. For example, the speaker was expected to answer a question precisely - going beyond the scope of a question was frowned upon (even though it may have been extremely helpful to mugs like us). Just reading the suttas without underlying understanding of the context is likely to lead to mistakes IMHO. I'll finish here. Just a few reflections you may or may not find useful. Take care Andrew T 47214 From: "avinduandura" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura hi larry, i have no douts about dukkha as we experience it in day-to-day life. but I sholdn't worry about it if we are not going to have a re-birth. metta, avidu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Avidu: "My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I > suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is > just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.." > > Hi Avidu, > > May I suggest that you begin at the beginning. Do you doubt the truth of > dukkha? > > Larry 47215 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Jon, > Hi Herman > > Lots of meat in your post to Tep, so I hope you don't mind if I butt in ;-)) > Not at all :-) > Egbert wrote: > > >Hi Tep, > > > > > >... > >Anatta, to me, means that no thing is its own cause, and that no thing > >is knowable as itself (there is no essence). > > > > The way it is explained in the suttas, the quality of 'anatta' becomes > apparent when things are seen as being subject to conditions (not being > their own cause). So it is a case of conditioned/not own cause, hence > anatta, rather than anatta, hence conditioned/not own cause. == Agreed. > > I'd be interested to know more about the connection you see between > anattaness and being/not being knowable as itself (no essence). Is > there a conceptual problem with things being not of their own cause, yet > with essence? == Firstly something about essence. The problem is as follows. How things appear, and how they are, can be quite a few worlds apart, as you well know. IMHO, human perceptual processes rely on the computation of differences. So what is presented to consciousness as positive objects with seemingly inherent characteristics, are, in fact, the representations of the ever-changing difference between states of non-conscious sensing. Now, if mental objects exist only as the difference between states that no longer apply, how knowable is their self-nature (essence)? Seeing as there is no knowable essence (self-nature) in anything, because things come into being only as differences, its potential relation to anatta is a moot point :-) But I do think that anatta and anicca go hand in glove. > > >All things are a > >convergence of many other things, none of which are their own cause, > >or knowable as themselves. > > > > I'd like to ask about the idea of all things being a convergence of many > other things, with no thing being knowable as itself. > > As you sit before your computer and read this post there is visible > datum being experienced at the eye-door, and probably hardness through > the body door. In what sense do you understand this visible datum or > tangible datum to be a convergence of many other 'things' (as opposed to > being the product of multiple conditions)? == I don't see any difference between the convergence of many other things, and the being a product of multiple conditions. Either usage will do. As to how how they are perceived, see above re objects being presented as the difference between states. It is, however, not apparent to perception that perception is a complex composite of non-perceptual factors. But it can be apparent to reason. > > >Things, and whatever occurs to bring things about, are two sides of > >the same coin. Precisely because there is order and regularity and > >predictability in how things come about, it is possible to come to > >understand the how of existence, as formulated in codependent > >origination. Understanding how ( different to understanding that ) > >things come about also gives understanding of how things cease to be. > > > > > > I agree that an understanding of co-dependent origination is a necessary > part of the path to enlightenment. As I see it, this understanding > gradually develops as insight into the true nature of dhammas is > developed. Is that how you see it too? > Yes, I do. Kind Regards Herman > Jon 47216 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:39pm Subject: Naturally Luminous is Mind ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Essentially Luminous but veiled by defilement is this Mind: The exalted Buddha said: Friends, I know of no other single thing, so quickly changing as the mind, insofar as it is not easy to find just one other phenomena changing equally fast. Shining bright, friends, is this mind, yet it is indeed obstructed by external defilements. Luminous absolutely, is that pure mind, when it is safely released and freed from these alien impurities. Radiant is this mind, though it is soiled by foreign obscurations. This, the ordinary unlearned persons not understand as it really is! I tell you, that is why uneducated ordinary persons neither meditate nor develop mentally. Luminous is that mind, friends, when it is purified & released from these fermented pollutions. This does the learned Noble Disciple understand as it really is. I tell you, that is why that educated Noble Disciple develops & improve mentally by training meditation.. Source: The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: Anguttara Nikaya I 8-11 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 Extracts http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 Complete http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47217 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 2:38am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 238 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] As regards the origin of recklessness, anottappa, we should study first what is said about the origin of its opposite, ottappa or fear of blame. We refrain from evil owing to fear of blame from without, from the “world”. Thus, fear of blame has an external origin. In the case of recklessness, anottappa, there is lack of fear of blame or punishment from the “world”. When someone, for example, steals, he may acquire a bad name, he may be punished for this crime, but at the moment of akusala citta there is no consideration of such factors and there is lack of respect for others. When there are conditions for the arising of akusala citta, shamelessness is not ashamed of akusala and recklessness does not fear its consequences. We may think that we are ashamed of and abhor killing or stealing and that we will never do such things. However, when the situation becomes difficult good intentions are forgotten and then we have no shame or fear of doing evil deeds. For example, generally we may not lie, but out of consideration for our relatives or friends we may not be ashamed of lying. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47218 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Dear Larry - Thank you very much for sharing your calm thought with me. L: The painfulness of disagreement is due to attachment. That is where the real work lies. T: Disagreement is unavoidable - even among Buddhist monks in the same monastery. Attachment is the real problem, the real solution is in letting go. L: No need to worry about what others think or do. Let your view be just a view. T: Yes, that understanding is a part of the letting go. Sincerely, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > The painfulness of disagreement is due to attachment. That is where the real work lies. Try to see that and learn from it. We are all afflicted > by this affliction. It isn't easy to penetrate. > > No need to worry about what others think or do. Let your view be just a > view. > > Larry 47219 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - It is a pleasure to communicate with you. C: If I may step into this mud-slinging here it seems that Tep has the misinterpretation of Nina's meanings and vice versa. T: I only saw misinterpretation but no mud. C: ...there are multiple versions different ways to view the topic or the statement. It could be different pairs of shoes which can give the Point of View. T: Good advice, Colette - similar to Larry's. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi All, > > If I may step into this mud-slinging here it seems that Tep has the > misinterpretation of Nina's meanings and vice versa. Look at the > possiblity of the view thru a fly's eye or in the child's > kaliedescope: there are multiple versions different ways to view the > topic or the statement. It could be different pairs of shoes which > can give the Point of View. > 47220 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Your view about "paying attention" is: It would be better to call it "prompted mindfulness". Is the term "prompted" here from the Pali 'sankhara' as in the Visuddhimagga? < prompting in the sense of prior effort exerted by the person or by others.> In what way is paying attention less than prompted mindfulness? What do you need to prompt mindfulness? Regards, Tep ====== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "Whose view do you agree with and why?" > > Hi Tep, > > I like my own view best: "paying attention" is a conceptual fabrication, > like a "tree"; there's no such reality. It would be better to call it > "prompted mindfulness". > > Larry 47221 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 6:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions/ Tep's Baby? buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - Thank you for the reply. > S: > I don't have time to write now -- but would also just like to add my > encouragement to you to continue with your series. My comments/reflections in my last post were certainly not meant to be discouraging or all your hard work in any way. > T: Letting go of a thread anytime and asking another person to take over is healthy for the discussion group, it should not be interpreted as a sign of discouragement caused by the 'management'. > S: > I do apologise if I ever sound as though I wish to 'take over' this or any > other thread -- quite the opposite of how I feel!! Definitely your 'baby', > Tep:). > T: I wasn't angry or hurt by your viewpoint, Sarah. So the apology is not necessary. And there is no "baby" as far as I can see, only the Dhamma that has no ownership. Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (& Howard), > I'm very glad to see Howard is also joining in (and Jon W of course!!)-- 47222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Larry, op 02-07-2005 01:52 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: ... Also we can tell the > clinging or aversion are prompted simply by the presence of sloth and > torpor. N: We have to be careful here. It is not easy to know exactly when there are sloth and torpor. We may think about them, name them, but this is not the same as paññaa which knows their characteristics. ------- L:If sloth and torpor are not present, the clinging or aversion > may be prompted or unprompted, depending on whether they are active or > passive (or possibly there could be a definite prompt). And, as with > clinging and aversion, so also with ignorance which arises with all > unwholesome consciousnesses. --- N: Ignorance when it arises with lobha or dosa. It is very hard to tell, because ignorance is so dark. But of the moha-muulacitta which has ignorance as its only root it is not said that it is prompted or unprompted. Nina. 47223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, op 02-07-2005 21:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the > Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" > the "reality insights". ----- N: I am somewhat hesitant about the word conventional. Take for instance walking, 'I am walking', or feeling; I have such or such feeling, or as we read in some suttas: he is thinking that it is such and such. I believe that in all these cases there is reference to direct understanding of nama and rupa, not merely thinking. The explanation is by way of conventional terms. The passage about walking has been often mentioned here: it is not in the way of jackals who think or know that they are walking. It is stressed: seeing the body (ruupa) in the body. To return to anapanasati: the yogavacara should be aware of breath which is rupa produced by citta. He should be aware of it where it touches the upperlip. Is it possible that we both mean different things by breath? I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa produced by citta. We cling to breath and to life that depends on it. I see samatha as a means to have less clinging, it must lead to detachment. Anapanasati samaadhi is a means to have less clinging to breath. Rupa produced by citta is very subtle. It is not the air that appears when we blow, it is not the motion of the abdomen as some think. This subject is not easy as I see it. ----- H: -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects > such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such > as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order > to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the > nonconceptual level". ----- N: I fall over the word *only* you use. I have not seen in any sutta that anapanasati is the only way of directly knowing solidity, motion etc. People have accumulated different inclinations. -------- H: -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to > believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless > intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". ----- N: I understand your point: one has to practise in order to understand what anapanasati is. There is something in it. However, just starting to practise without knowing what this very subtle object of meditation is, may not be leading to the goal, it may not lead to detachment from breath. I find it useful to study the texts and Co. so that I have more understanding of the suttas on anapanasati. I would like to know what it is all about. This is not intellectual rumination as I see it. Nina. 47224 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 169 nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 169. Intro: Here the Visuddhimagga deals with the fifth up to the eighth type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: 5)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, unprompted 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wrong view, prompted 7)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, unprompted 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wrong view, prompted *** As we have seen, seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. These seventeen cetasikas include five Œuniversals¹ (cetasikas which accompany every citta), namely, contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, which accompany every citta are not reckoned here since they are not the khandha of formations. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. In this case, the universals and particulars perform their functions in the unwholesome way. For example, contact contacts the object of clinging, volition is akusala and it can motivate unwholesome deeds, attention is wrong attention, concentration focusses on the object of clinging, energy is energy for akusala. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) Furthermore, the first type of akusala citta rooted in attachment is accompanied by attachment, lobha, and wrong view, di.t.thi. Thus, in this context, seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations are mentioned. As we have seen, the second type is as the first type, but the inconstants of sloth and torpor may accompany the citta since it is prompted. The third type is without wrong view but the inconstant of conceit may accompany it. The fourth type is as the third type, but the inconstants of conceit, sloth and torpor may accompany it. In the following section (§ 169), the Visuddhimagga deals with the lobha-muulacittas that arise with indifferent feeling, and thus, they are not accompanied by the particular which is rapture, piiti. ----------- Text Vis.:169. (26) Those given for the first (22), excepting happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (26). ----------- N: happiness is here the translation of piiti (rapture). In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere it always arises together with pleasant feeling. Since the fifth type is without pleasant feeling, there is no piiti either. Thus, sixteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations accompany the fifth type of lobha-muulacitta. --------- Text Vis.:(27)And as with the fifth (26), so with the sixth too (27); but the difference here is promptedness and the inconstant [occurrence] of stiffness-and-torpor. --- N: If sloth and torpor arise the sixth type is accompanied by eighteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. ------- Text Vis.: (28) With the seventh (28) should be understood to be associated those given for the fifth (26), except views (xli); but pride (xliv) is inconstant here. ------ N: If conceit does not accompany this type of citta, there are fifteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations that accompany the seventh type of lobha-muulacitta. If conceit accompanies it, there are sixteen cetasikas accompanying it. -------- Text Vis.: (29) With the eighth (29) should be understood to be associated those given for the sixth (27), except views (xli); and here too pride (xliv) is among the inconstant. -------- N: The eighth type is accompanied by at least sixteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. If sloth and torpor arise the eighth type is accompanied by eighteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations. If sloth and torpor do not arise, but conceit accompanies this citta, there are seventeen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations which accompany it. If sloth and torpor and also conceit accompany it there are nineteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations which accompany it. ********* The Buddha classified the akusala cittas rooted in attachment as eight types: four types accompanied by wrong view, four types without wrong view, four types with pleasant feeling, four types with indifferent feeling, four types that are unprompted and four types that are prompted. Although they are classified as only eight types, there is an immense variety in the cittas rooted in attachment. There are different cetasikas that accompany them and condition them by way of conascence-condition, there are different objects experienced by these cittas. There may be clinging to the objects that are experienced through the six doors with conceit, with wrong view or with attachment dissociated from wrong view and conceit. There are many kinds of wrong view to which one may cling. There are different intensities of attachment and the accompanying cetasikas. They can motivate different unwholesome deeds through body, speech and mind. Clinging to gain, to honour or praise may motivate lying and dishonesty. Because of ignorance one does not realize that there is clinging, one does not know when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta. The study of more details about the different types of cittas is beneficial. All the enumerations of cittas and cetasikas are not abstract notions, they pertain to our conduct in daily life. ****** Nina. 47225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? nilovg Hi Avidu and Larry, op 03-07-2005 01:41 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Avidu: "My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I > suspect even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is > just a kind of dream? willing to be defeated.." > Larry: May I suggest that you begin at the beginning. Do you doubt the truth of > dukkha? Nina: I would like to add, that it is useful to talk about one item of doubt at a time. It is normal to have doubts, only the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment has no more doubt. The Buddha taught that also doubt is a reality, a mental reality, and it can be realized when it arises. No other teacher has taught this. Perhaps this point may help you to gain more confidence in the Buddha. When there is a moment of confidence there is no opportunity for doubt. But all these realities are momentary. Nina. 47226 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Rob Ep message nilovg Hi Herman, Jon and all, I transferred Herman's message to Rob Ep. He said: Nina. 47227 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. nilovg Hi Colette, op 01-07-2005 16:37 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > > colette: you speak of "Doubt" since hesitation implies a tinge, the > presence of UNCERTAINTY, question. ... > > Notice the interplay between kusala and akusala. Each is in their own > respect with their own volition. They are stirred, my phraseology, > and rise respectively to the inherent volition. Now add the 'spice' > of "DOUBT, or "UNCERTAINTY", and consider, ponder, the condition of > the kusala or/and akusala after the catalyst of Doubt or Uncertainty > has been added to the mix... ------ N: Hesitation is only a means of explaining the nature of citta, it does not mean doubt as taught in the Tipitaka: doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, doubt about nama and rupa. Doubt only arises with akusala citta rooted in ignorance. Certain terms are used to explain realities, and they do not have the same meaning as terms we use in conventional language. This is difficult, but we can get used to it when we study them one at a time. Nina. 47228 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Is truth verifiable ever? lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "avinduandura" wrote: > > hi larry, > i have no douts about dukkha as we experience it in day-to-day life. > but I shouldn't worry about it if we are not going to have a re- birth. > > metta, > avidu Hi Avidu, I would say the only way you can really know there will be no rebirth is to experience the end of dukkha in day-to-day life. If you doubt re-birth, why not doubt "no rebirth" as well? All we can know is what is happening now. However, for the regulation of social well-being it might be a good idea to _believe_ in re-birth and the future consequences of present good and bad actions. This belief in itself can condition the arising of kusala citta (wholesome consciousness). Larry 47229 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:44am Subject: Multifarious and discordant interpretations [was Walking Meditation ...] buddhistmedi... Hi, andrew and Herman - Andrew (to Herman in #47213): If there is a sutta that can only be interpreted in one possible way, I'd like to have another look at it. The true question is - what is meant here? Do we just stick with the natural meaning of the words provided by the translator? Or are we really required to push further and look at how the meanings might be affected by core teachings like anatta and conditionality (i.e. the wider context)? As you might've guessed, I'm a "wider context" guy because I feel you are more likely to get a result closer to the Buddha's original intention. Tep : The many meanings a sutta reader sees are fabricated by his/her own wisdom (or the lack of it) that is influenced by the individual's background and training, among other things. What is meant here? The true answer is : we don't know. Even for a much less difficult book (like a textbook, say 'Economics') the students still understand the subject matters very differently. Even those experienced economics professors, researchers and corporate economists don't generally agree on anything about the economy, so what can you say about understanding the suttas? Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Jon and James and all, > A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where they are at. > > Hi Herman > > Nice to see you back. Honey sales are soaring throughout the DSG > world as a result! (-: Only joking, but you might like to have your > jar and a large spoon handy just in case. > Interested in the sutta-view/abhidhamma-view dichotomy but am afraid it doesn't help me much. Sutta-view would have to be divided further into James-sutta-view, Andrew-sutta-view and so on because it seems to me that many suttas are so lacking in detail as to give rise to > multifarious and discordant interpretations. If there is a sutta > that can only be interpreted in one possible way, I'd like to have > another look at it. > 47230 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry - > > Your view about "paying attention" is: It would be better to call > it "prompted mindfulness". > > Is the term "prompted" here from the Pali 'sankhara' as in the > Visuddhimagga? < prompting in the sense of prior effort exerted by the > person or by others.> > > In what way is paying attention less than prompted mindfulness? What > do you need to prompt mindfulness? > > > Regards, > > > Tep Hi Tep, Yes, a 'prompted consciousness' is a consciousness that is conditioned (usually) by intimation rupas, spoken or written words or gestures. One can also prompt oneself, as in "I should rouse myself and wash the dishes". All wholesome and unwholesome sense sphere consciousnesses are either prompted or unprompted. Prompted mindfulness usually entails the recollection of a sutta. But sati itself is a kind of prompt insofar as it is the recollection of Dhamma. The idea of "consciousness attending to an object" is a fanciful conception that assumes that two realities are experienced at the same time, the consciousness and the object. A careful analysis will reveal that that is never the case. When there is the experience of one of the sensations of breathing, that is all there is. There is not, at the same time, the experience of attending to something or the experience of remembering to attend to something. The simplicity of this experience is obviously conducive to tranquility, but it is also conducive to insight in that it cuts through the ties that bind, ties such as "I am attending to the breath" or "I am being mindful, what a good boy am I", or even "this is insight". Larry 47231 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. lbidd2 Nina: "But of the moha-muulacitta which has ignorance as its only root it is not said that it is prompted or unprompted." Hi Nina, Thanks for this. Larry 47232 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 10:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. lbidd2 Nina: "This subject is not easy as I see it." Hi Nina, If I may butt in to your conversation with Howard, is what you are saying is that the breath rupas are not truly graspable? That we do not truly understand what we are craving? Isn't seeing that we don't understand, seeing this very elusiveness, cause to cease grasping? Larry 47233 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, nina - In a message dated 7/3/05 10:23:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, op 02-07-2005 21:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the > Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" > the "reality insights". ----- N: I am somewhat hesitant about the word conventional. Take for instance walking, 'I am walking', or feeling; I have such or such feeling, or as we read in some suttas: he is thinking that it is such and such. I believe that in all these cases there is reference to direct understanding of nama and rupa, not merely thinking. The explanation is by way of conventional terms. The passage about walking has been often mentioned here: it is not in the way of jackals who think or know that they are walking. It is stressed: seeing the body (ruupa) in the body. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we are both correct in this. What is the object of the meditation depends on the practitioner and the stage s/he is at. Only at advanced stages has one gotten beyond concept. ---------------------------------------------- To return to anapanasati: the yogavacara should be aware of breath which is rupa produced by citta. He should be aware of it where it touches the upperlip. Is it possible that we both mean different things by breath? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I mean both the conventional breath and the experiential realities of touch sensation, warmth, coolness, solidity, liquidity, and motion that underlie it. As one's concentration, mindfulness, and attention heighten, the "breath" recedes into the background and the rupas move to the fore. --------------------------------------------- I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa produced by citta. We cling to breath and to life that depends on it. I see samatha as a means to have less clinging, it must lead to detachment. Anapanasati samaadhi is a means to have less clinging to breath. Rupa produced by citta is very subtle. It is not the air that appears when we blow, it is not the motion of the abdomen as some think. This subject is not easy as I see it. ----- H: -- "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional objects > such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such > as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order > to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the > nonconceptual level". ----- N: I fall over the word *only* you use. I have not seen in any sutta that anapanasati is the only way of directly knowing solidity, motion etc. People have accumulated different inclinations. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. Most of us, having poor to mediocre accumulations, however, see hardness, warmth, etc (incorrectly) as aspects or features of conventional objects, and it is by turning our attention to those apparent objects that we get to observe these associated experiential realities. We don't usually note the warmth, coolness, moistness, touch, and movement associated with breath when our attention is caught in thought or other phenomena. We note these usually only when attending to "the breath". ------------------------------------------------ -------- H: -- "We *must* begin where we are - we have no choice in this - and to > believe that we can do otherwise is to fruitlessly substitute endless > intellectual rumination for the possibility of cultivation of pa~n~na". ----- N: I understand your point: one has to practise in order to understand what anapanasati is. There is something in it. However, just starting to practise without knowing what this very subtle object of meditation is, may not be leading to the goal, it may not lead to detachment from breath. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, it helps to know in advance what we will experience, though there is the danger of substituting that formal knowledge for direct experiential knowledge - especially for one who stops with the formal knowledge. --------------------------------------------- I find it useful to study the texts and Co. so that I have more understanding of the suttas on anapanasati. I would like to know what it is all about. This is not intellectual rumination as I see it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It may be, and it might not be. That depends on what else one does. Pariyatti is insufficient. --------------------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47234 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 10:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard./ Sarah's Breath buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (Sarah and Howard) - In your reply (#47223) to Howard you stated for the first time ever that breath was a rupa. N: I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa produced by citta. T: May I ask you to kindly give your opinion about what Sarah wrote in a recent message # 47130, concerning breath being just a concept, not the kind of "rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana"? Was she wrong? >Sarah(# 47130 ): And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, > I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas > which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), > vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only >rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana > through the body-sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. Thanks. Kind regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, (snipped) > > To return to anapanasati: the yogavacara should be aware of breath which is rupa produced by citta. He should be aware of it where it touches the upperlip. > Is it possible that we both mean different things by breath? > I think that our life depends on breath, and when we exhale the last breath there is the end of life. Therefore, I understand that breath is rupa > produced by citta. We cling to breath and to life that depends on it. I see samatha as a means to have less clinging, it must lead to detachment. > Anapanasati samaadhi is a means to have less clinging to breath. > Rupa produced by citta is very subtle. It is not the air that appears when we blow, it is not the motion of the abdomen as some think. This subject is > not easy as I see it. > ----- > 47235 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? nilovg Hi Avidu, op 02-07-2005 14:50 schreef avinduandura op avinduandura@...: > OK, then my next question is what to learn. should we read/learn all > the texts which contain every thing buddha said in his 45 years? and > speaches given to thousands of people who needed buddhas help to > overcome their problem which was not related to the dhamma at all? N: No, this is not necessary and not possible. It is best to select some suttas according to your inclination. You could even begin with some suttas quoted here on the list and ask questions. A: eg, how to spend a good family life etc.. N: The Buddha spoke about lay life, such as the Sigalovadasutta. He exhorted us to develop metta, being not seeking your own comfort and pleasure, but being attentive to the needs of others. Nina. 47236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. ,Shamelessness,Recklessness , to Phil nilovg Hi Phil, op 02-07-2005 16:23 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Shame has a subjective origin, it is > influenced >> by oneself; its proximate cause is self-respect. Fear of blame has >> an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate >> cause is respect for someone else. > > Ph: I don't quite get this. "The proximate cause of recklessness > is lack of respect for someone else." .... It seems to me recklessness is also very > subjective - having fear of suffering in hell or an animal realm > because of one's behaviour feels pretty subjective and personal. ------- N: Fear of blame, ottappa, has an external cause, it is influenced by the world; its proximate cause is respect for someone else. Someone may fear punishment, may fear the law. He will suffer the consequences of his deeds. He is considerate for what others will feel about his deeds, does not want to cause trouble to others. He has respect for the Buddha, the Teacher. (We discussed this before) The two cetasikas arise together and are very close. They both shun evil, recoil from it. We cannot pinpoint in daily life their different natures. NIna. 47237 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 0:05pm Subject: Re: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I like your defintion for prompted consciousness: "a 'prompted consciousness' is a consciousness that is conditioned (usually) by intimation rupas, spoken or written words or gestures". Now, according to this definition, can breaths, as the object of meditation, condition consciousness to arise? why or why not? Larry: The idea of "consciousness attending to an object" is a fanciful conception that assumes that two realities are experienced at the same time, the consciousness and the object. Tep: Are you saying that the breathing meditation, which is cognizance (citta or consciousness) attending to breaths, or breath being the object of cognizance, is a "fanciful conception"? Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object Of a single cognizance; One knowing well these three ideas Can then obtain development. [para # 169 Breathing Treatise] Larry: When there is the experience of one of the sensations of breathing, that is all there is. There is not, at the same time, the experience of attending to something or the experience of remembering to attend to something. Tep: I think you are talking about the fact that only a single kind of vedana can occur in a given moment. This is not different from "consciousness attending to an object", one at a time, such as in- breath, or out-breath, or sign, etc. Here the specific vedana(e.g. joy) is the single object of the citta in that moment, similar to an out-breath is the object of the citta while the yogi is breathing out. Of course, not both in-breath and out-breath can be the object of consciousness at the same time. Please correct me if I misunderstand your intention. BTW: what is wrong with the thought, "this is insight"? Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry - > > > > > In what way is paying attention less than prompted mindfulness? > What > > do you need to prompt mindfulness? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > 47238 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 9:03am Subject: What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah & Nina (and Tep, and all) - In a recent post of Tep's, he quoted from your message, Sarah, in which you wrote the following: "And then when we get to reading about anapanasati, I think we need to remember that in actuality, the only dhammas which appear through the body-sense are tejo dhatu (temperature), vayo dhatu (motion) and pathavi dhatu (solidity). These are the only rupas that can ever be known by the development of satipatthana through the body-sense. Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts. So as soon as the text is referring to vipassana nanas or insights of any kind, it is referring to insights into the true characteristics of these elements – any rupas and any namas appearing only. It is not referring any more to the development of samatha, jhanas and signs of jhanas." Now, Nina, in my conversations with you, I have been maintaining that the Buddha directed the meditator to attend to conventional objects such as the breath (in order to subsequently get at the underlying experiential reqalities and their nature). But you have maintained that the meaning was to attend to the dhammas. However, he did quite specifically teach one to note when the breath is long, when it is short, and so on. [[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short.] Likewise he teaches attending to the entire "body" [[3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body,[2] and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body.], with that "body" referring either to the whole physical body or to the breath as a whole. But these meditation subjects are, as Sarah points out, conventional notions. (As I have maintained, the Buddha is directing the meditator to attend to conventional objects.) Are you and Sarah in agreement or disagreement on this issue? It really is unclear to me. Far more unclear to me is why both you and Sarah think I am incorrect in my understanding here. It seems to me that the sutta is *quite explicit* in telling the meditator to attend to conventional objects and their characteristics. Sarah, you yourself say that "Anything else, such as long and short breaths, breath in any guise, deep, shallow, nose-tip, body and so on, are mere concepts." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47239 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Attn. : Nina, Howard, Sarah, Larry, Tom and others} - Your extension of Agreed Point 3 (AP.3) reflects a well-thought-out strategy. [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". Jon (expanding on AP 3): When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. Tep: In my heart "the 4 jhanas" are the same as the samma-samadhi as defined in several suttas (including DN 22). In other words, there is only one kind of jhanas that the Buddha talked about. Further, SN XLVIII.10 shows that samma-samadhi is the same as the 'faculty of concentration' in the indriya, a group within the 37 bodhipakkhaya dhamma, and this illustrates how important "the 4 jhanas" (samasamadhi) are for attaining magga-nanas. "And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration. " Jon (quoting a commentary passage from CMA): Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. Tep: Thank you for quoting from this commentary source that proposes a hypothesis on "vipassana jhana", the term for which there is no definition in the suttas. Do you have any real proof to show me that there have been "bare insight" people who achieved vipassana jhana? Jon: So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). Tep: This sounds like your Q.E.D. of the proof that says "samatha bhavana only achieves the mundane jhana which is inferior to the vipassana jhana". Before disproving your "proof", which is based on just one commentary without any real story yet to back the claim (i.e. like a hypothesis without a valid test result), let me ask you some questions as follows. Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? In your opinion is Anapanasati bhavana a samatha bhavana? Could you please define samatha bhavana? Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > (I snipped the part that was answered) > [AP3] --"When the Buddha spoke about concentration, however, we know he meant only kusala concentration. Thus, concentration spoken of (and encouraged) in the suttas is the concentration that accompanies kusala of different levels. Samma-samadhi is the concentration that accompanies insight in particular". > > When samma-samadhi is understood in terms of the concentration that *accompanies* insight, it puts a different light on the description of > samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. > > Consider the following passage from CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 (i.e., the translator's summary of the commentaries). > > >>>>>>>>>> > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics > of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. > > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas *occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana*. > > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before > reaching the path. ... > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, *all path and > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. > >>>>>>>>>> > > So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). > > Hoping there are not too many 'leading' questions/points for you here ;-)) > > Jon Dubya 47240 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 169 lbidd2 Nina: "Because of ignorance one does not realize that there is clinging, one does not know when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta." Hi Nina, I would like to bring out one point. Kusala citta doesn't arise with ignorance but we don't know kusala citta (or the ultimate nature of any citta) unless it arises with wisdom (paññaa). Ordinary consciousness can know clinging or generosity as they characterize a conceptual whole such as "my clinging" or "my generosity" but only wisdom can know a consciousness as it is, simply as a khandha. Larry 47241 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 3, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation lbidd2 Hi Tep, I will try to answer your questions but these answers are at best guesses or my own opinions. Tep: "Now, according to this definition, can breaths, as the object of meditation, condition consciousness to arise? why or why not?" L: An object of consciousness is an object condition but breath rupas wouldn't usually be considered a "prompt" for prompted consciousness. Nothing is conditioned by only one condition. I believe our discussion was concerning "paying attention". The "paying" aspect of this is intention, imo, and I think in this case the intention is a matter of self prompting if correctly understood. My objection was that "paying attention" implied the experience of two realities at the same time, mindfulness and object of mindfulness. It might be easier to see this if we say mindfulness conditions the arising of the object of mindfulness which, I would say, is a wisdom consciousness consisting of an uncompounded reality. However, this is venturing rather far afield and getting way too complicated. The main point is that only one reality at a time can be experienced. Tep: "Are you saying that the breathing meditation, which is cognizance (citta or consciousness) attending to breaths, or breath being the object of cognizance, is a "fanciful conception"?" L: No, experiencing two realities at the same time is a fanciful conception. Tep: "BTW: what is wrong with the thought, "this is insight"?" L: Whatever "this" refers to is gone plus the thought "this is insight" isn't an uncompounded reality. By "uncompounded reality" I mean a khandha, an element of what the Visuddhimagga calls a "compact whole". Some people may object to this terminology because "sankhara" can mean either compounded or conditioned. Khandhas are conditioned and one of the functions of sankhara khandha is to compound. Except in the case of the wisdom cetasika which experiences consciousnesses one at a time (or, "as khandhas"). However, this is a rather loose generalization and probably an overstatement. The actual nature of experience can't really be pinned down with words, of which this has been too many. Larry 47242 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 239 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Akusala cittas arise time and again and these are always accompanied by shamelessness and recklessness. Also when the akusala citta does not have the intensity to motivate evil deeds, for example, when we are thinking with ignorance and forgetfulness of realities, there are shamelessness and recklessness performing their functions. It may seem that forgetfulness of realities is not so dangerous, since we do not harm other people by it. However, all kinds and degrees of akusala are dangerous. If right understanding is not developed defilements cannot be eradicated and we have to be subject to birth, old age, sickness and death, again and again. After there have been many moments of forgetfulness, mindfulness may arise again and then we are ashamed of our ignorance and forgetfulness of realities, and we see its danger. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? Larry nilovg Hi Larry, op 03-07-2005 19:19 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "This subject is not easy as I see it." L: If I may butt in to your conversation with Howard, is what you are > saying is that the breath rupas are not truly graspable? ------ N: No, but the object of samatha is very precise. If one does not get it, one may have wrong concentration, miccha-samaadhi. This will not lead to subduing attachment to sense objects which is the aim of samatha. One will altogether miss the goal. I see a danger here. --------- L: That we do not truly understand what we are craving? Isn't seeing that we don't > understand, seeing this very elusiveness, cause to cease grasping? ----- N: I am afraid not! But seeing that we do not understand makes us more careful. We should try to study the subject. Nina. 47244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Tep, there is no problem. Sarah speaks about insight. I would like to consider first the nimitta of breath that is the object of samatha and even to the stage of jhana. So, Howards questions are a good opportunity to go into the subject of samatha more deeply. op 03-07-2005 22:03 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Now, Nina, in my conversations with you, I have been maintaining that the > Buddha directed the meditator to attend to conventional objects such as the > breath (in order to subsequently get at the underlying experiential reqalities > and their nature). But you have maintained that the meaning was to attend to > the dhammas. ------ N: Perhaps I did not explain clearly. I wanted to make clear what breath is. It is a bodily phenomenon. It is conditioned. By what? Not by temperature, nutrition or kamma, but by citta. So long as there is citta, when we are alive, there is breath. But we cling to it, we cling to life, we cling to all objects experienced through the six doors. The aim of samatha is the elimination of attachment. Attachment to breath in this case. I think this has to be kept in mind from the beginning. In samatha one does not attend to the true nature of dhammas, the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Their true characteristics. Thus, Howard, I did not maintain that the meaning was to attend to the dhammas, that is the true nature of dhammas. The yogavacara attends to the rupa which is breath where it touches the nosetip. Some other meditation subjects of samatha are learned by sight, such as the kasinas. Breath is learnt by touch. There must be a rupa that impinges on a certain location or base. I hesitate to use the word concept, paññatti, and prefer nimitta, mental image. There is the learner's sign, when one begins, and then the nimitta becomes more perfected, becoming the counterpart sign as samatha develops. When jhaana is reached it has become very subtle. ----------- H: However, he did quite specifically teach one to note when the > breath is long, when it is short, and so on. ------ N: Yes, I am trying to understand this. He has to keep on attending to breath where it touches the nosetip, no matter the breathing is long or short. The Visuddhimagga which frequently refers to the Path of Discrimination helps me here. Ch VIII, 165: And the same for short breaths. There is an important footnote here: I think this is very essential. The Yogavacara does not have to *think* of long or short breath, but he just keeps on attending to the breath where it touches the nosetip. -------- H: Likewise he teaches attending to the entire "body" [[3] He trains himself to > breathe in sensitive to the entire body,[2] and to breathe out sensitive to > the > entire body.], with that "body" referring either to the whole physical body > or to the breath as a whole. But these meditation subjects are, as Sarah > points > out, conventional notions. -------- N: The meaning is not the whole body, but the breathing body. That is, the in-breaths and out-breaths, nothing else. He is not distracted, keeps on attending to the breath where it touches the nosetip. The Visuddhimagga renders the text:Ch VIII, 171:explaining entire body as: the entire in-breath body. But in this section the Vis. refers to insight: with consciousness associated with knowledge.> As we have seen, the first tetrad refers already to samatha and vipassana, developed to enlightenment, to the stage of the arahat. When we read body or kaayasankhara it may not be clear immediately. We have to look at the context. I do not claim to understand all of it! I try to keep to one issue at a time. Now we are dealing first with: what is breath, what is the nimitta of breath in samatha. I think we have to stick to this subject for a while. -------- H:(As I have maintained, the Buddha is directing the > meditator to attend to conventional objects.) ... (leaving out what you ask Sarah). > It seems to me that the sutta is *quite explicit* in telling the meditator to > attend to conventional objects and their characteristics. ------- N: I find the expression conventional objects not clear. It seems: O, I am breathing now and can attend to it by thinking about it. As I understand from the texts, there is a very precise procedure for the yogavacara who develops samaadhi. As said, I do not deal with insight yet. As far as I understand, the development of samatha is different from thinking in a conventional way. Nina. 47245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 169 nilovg Hi Larry, op 04-07-2005 02:21 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "Because of ignorance one does not realize that there is clinging, > one does not know when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta." > L: I would like to bring out one point. Kusala citta doesn't arise with > ignorance but we don't know kusala citta (or the ultimate nature of any > citta) unless it arises with wisdom (paññaa). ------ N: Yes, but there are different levels of wisdom. Even when paññaa is not insight, there can be a level of understanding of what is kusala and what akusala. Otherwise we could not develop kusala and abstain from akusala. ------- L Ordinary consciousness can know clinging or generosity as they characterize a conceptual whole such as "my clinging" or "my generosity" but only wisdom can know a > consciousness as it is, simply as a khandha. -------- N: That is right. So long as akusala and kusala are not realized yet as conditioned namas, we are inclined to take them for "my clinging" or "my generosity". This is so deeply rooted. Insight can know dhammas as they are. You say: simply as a khandha, and this is correct. Or, and this is the same: as elements devoid of self. Nina. 47246 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > L: To experience an object is agency. An agent is a doer. A doer is a > self. If consciousness experiences an object, consciousness is an agent. ... S: I don’t see it like that. Consciousness is a nama. Whereas a rupa cannot experience anyting, a nama can. It is just an element, not a self or a doer. When it comes to ‘agent’ or ‘subject’, it depends how these terms are mant. Let me quote from the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha itself (PTS transl), prologue p7 (as opposed to BB’s summary in CMA): “Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’(As 112) For although such causal conditions as those of support and immediate contiguity are also relevant, consciousness does not arise in the absence of an object, and therefore its characteristic is spoken of with reference to that. This rejects the view that consciousness arises in the absence of an object. Or else consciousness is the means by which the associated dhammas are conscious (cintana). For it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called ‘a dhamma with its own particular nature’ (sabhaava-dhamma). In consideration of this, it is the definition of the particular natures of ultimate dhammas that is taken as absolute; the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. .........The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc, apart from the particular nature of a dhamma.” .... > It is better to say an object conditions the arising of a consciousness. > An object and a consciousness together can only be a concept because a > compound cannot be an ultimate. Eye-consciousness plus visible object > cannot be an ultimate reality because it is two. Eye-consciousness plus > visible object cannot be an ultimate reality experience; it is a > conceptual formulation only. ... S: These are concepts which represent realities. Only one reality can be known at a time as you suggest. They are complete different dhammas dependent on different conditions, but of course they are also closely connected. As you indicate, there can be no seeing consciousness unless a visible object conditions it (along with all its other conditioning factors). ... > S: "Visible object. is just that which is seen. <...> .... > L: Hmm. Well, I think visible object is a blue/red/green blank image. > What else do we see but merely colours? .... S: We can say seeing sees colour, but what is seen is just what appears through the eye-sense. Colour is an aspect. Light, for example, is another aspect. Visible object is just like it’s always been – not some strange green blank image suddenly, If it were so, how would we be able to differentiate between visible objects? I prefer to just say ‘that which is seen’. When there’s awareness of ‘that which is seen’, there’s no doubt about what visible object is. It’s like tactile object. We say we experience hardness, but actually hardness is an aspect of tactile object. There’s also the roughness/smoothness and other aspects – just as there has always been. Or sound – just exactly that which appears to the ear-sense. ..... >Are we to say only the primary colours (red, > blue, yellow, + black and white) are paramattha dhammas while all shades > of colours are concepts? .... S: this is not right at all –sounds to me liket some strange concepts about visible objects:) ... >Just to repeat, I think > ignorance is ignorant of the three general characteristics but not > ignorant of the distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma. For example, > if I fail to see a visible object, that is not ignorance. But if I see a > visible object but fail to see that it is impermanent, unsatisfactory, > not self, then that is ignorance. .... S: Right now, there is no failing to see a visible object, but if there is no awareness of it, then there’s ignorance. Ignorance arises with every akusala citta which experiences that dhamma. So there are countless experiences of sense objects with ignorance, when certainly there’s no knowing anything about their characteristics. .... > However, 'blindness' to the intrinsic nature (sabhava) of a paramattha > dhamma is common to all consciousnesses and cetasikas except wisdom > (panna). I am making a distinction between 'distinguishing > characteristic' (which is my own invention) and sabhava.....Any ideas? [According >to Vism.,sabhava is not the general characteristics.] .... S: I’d say the sabhava is the distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma. Each dhamma has its own sabhava. No two visible objects are the same, but they have characteristics or features or aspects of that sabhava in common. How’s that? Excellent points for reflection. Metta, Sarah ==== 47247 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] A sutta here, a sutta there... sarahprocter... Good Afternoon Colette, (James & Tep), Thanks for selecting two wonderful suttas. --- colette wrote: > Good Morning Sarah, > > Ah, Hong Kong, as a sailor I took one look at a shipmates embroidery > on his "cracker jacks" as was astonished that it only takes a short > time and doesn't cost anything as it would in the states. Who > wouldn't lust after such work, huh? There are countless other aspects > of Hong Kong I could go into ... S: You certainly have some stories, Colette:) .... >however time leaves me to simply answer > your request to the sutta I found so beneficial. I'm sorry I don't > seem to have a return address on the bottom of the page however the > cover page reads as follows: > > Duddha first Sermon > Chamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta > Turning the Wheel of the Dhamma > > and > Anattalakkhana Sutta > > By > Ledi Sayadaw > U Pe Maung Tin .... S: These were the very first suttas given by the Buddha and are very, very meaningful. They contain all the teachings -- enough for those with very little dust in their eyes to become arahants when they heard them. For the rest of us dusty-eyed folk, we need to hear and reflect on a lot more, of course. Last year in India, some of us recited the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta in Sarnath (where it was first given by the Buddha) and then several times later. I found it helpful to reflect more on the eightfold path as the middle way. Here are the links to the ati translations. Why not let us know which aspects you found so beneficial in them? We’d be glad to hear – (being bold with my royal ‘we’ and speaking for Tep and James too) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html Metta, Sarah ======== 47248 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhinnas & Others sarahprocter... Hi Herman, Thank you for your other comments to me. When I last wrote, I also intended to pick up one point in this post of yours which Phil also commented on: --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > There's been a bit of discussion lately about "beings". > > From that it became apparent that there are a number of people who say > they do not entertain thoughts of beings. ... S: I haven't read anyone here to say this. Even the Buddha entertained thoughts of beings. The only question is whether we think of 'beings' with right or wrong view. The aim is never to stop thinking about people. Metta, Sarah ======= 47249 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: out of social context jwromeijn Hallo Sarah Message from the Tourist Ofiice with view on the Mont Blanc --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Joop: I took a look, I was and I am satistied; that is: I still think > > that's possible to add dhammas to the list of the Dhamma Sangani. But > > better not discuss about this topic further (it's my intention to be > > more careful than some months ago) so I propose: let's agree tot > > disagree. > .... > S: Either way is fine. The cetasikas which are considered by some to be > `additions' in the Abhidammattha Sangaha are the 9 denoted by `yevapanika' > in Dhammasangani, i.e chanda, adhimokkha, manasikara, tatramajjhattata, > karuna, mudita and the 3 path factors which fall under sila. I don't think > anyone would suggest that these are new to the Abhidhamma texts. Take > karuna, compassion.....and remember the suttas on the Buddha's great > compassion.... I knew already that the added dhammas occured in the Suttas. And I am sure the social citta does too. In fact the Buddha was very social; caring and concerned about people and other beings. He was more social than many of his monk-followers; especally the monks who composed the Abhidhamma-books were rather autistic is my impression. S: Remember there's nothing so fast > as the speed of cittas and that they are far more variegated than any > picture. With almost every citta, there is vitakka `touching' the object > and other cetasikas performing their functions. So by the time there is an > `immediate awareness of the presence of another being', countless numbers > of processes of cittas have arisen and passed away after seeing or other > sense door experiences. > .... Joop: I know: and that an argument for my hypothesis that immidiate awarenes ... is a citta itself. > ... > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Not a total reaction; just a short one Metta Joop 47250 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa sarahprocter... Dear Nina, I had a few brief words with K.Sujin on this first point of yours the other day when Jon was fixing the dates for our visit to Bkk en route to and from Austalia in just over a couple of weeks. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I understood that even when there is tender insight there is no doubt > that thinking about realities is a nama-element. ... S: Of course when there is any insight or panna, there’s no doubt, but KS stressed there should be no expectation about what will be conditioned to arise in future. Conditions are different for different people. Again it has to be understanding with detachment, not expectations. Lobha is there unknowingly. If doubt hasn’t been eradicated, it can arise and sati and panna can understand it as a conditioned dhamma. They can know the level of understanding, how strong or weak it is when it arises now. All the teachings are for the development of understanding and detachment. .***** On another topic: > I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the > Sammaa-ditthi > sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): ... (S: I just tried checking but I’m looking at the wheel and it’s not on p11, which text are you looking at?) ... > conforms > with the knowledge of rise and fall of phenomena (udayabbayañaa.na) > which > precedes insight into actuality, and also with the insight of actuality > which follows the knowledge of rise and fall, in the course of the > development of penetrative wisdom (vipassanaa bhaavanaa). Only one who > is > endowed with a measure of this knowledge according to truth can see the > absence of a doer and the existence of mere doings, actions and > processes.> .... S: Thank you for this. Yes, I think anuloma nana has to be understood in context, I believe....did you have any comments here? Metta, Sarah ====== 47251 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mudita: Rejoicing Bliss ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > Unselfish Joy: How to rejoice in others Success: > > By seeing that: > If only happy at one's own success, such joy is rare & limited! > If happy also at other's success, the joy is frequent & infinite! .... S: Just a brief comment to say that I rather like this translation of 'unselfish joy' and the simple but clear reminders of its great value. Anumodana/Sadhu sadhu, Sarah ========== 47252 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... sarahprocter... Hi Dan. I'm not sure if you're still around, so I'll keep it brief and snip most. --- "Dan D." wrote: <...> > I don't rightly know, what would have been had conditions been > different. And in retrospect, it is difficult to discern the whole > range of conditions that bring to fruition any given moment of > satipatthana or insight that may arise. Reading/hearing are certainly > associated with development. ... S: I agree with your comments here (and also Howard's that there's no point in speculating further..) ... > > I'm sure you recall a flurry of posts of mine a few years ago on > anatta, silabbataparamasa, formal sitting, drugs, etc. -- "O.K. After > these tough years of being a pain in the butt, Dan finally > understands at least SOMETHING beyond how to be a constant thorn in > the side." ... S: :-) You said it! At least when another thorn comes along, we can say, 'well, there's hope -- look at Dan';). > > What caused my "conversion" back then? A whole lot of conditions, but > the proximate cause was my reading of a fiery debate about the > distinction between "samma vayama" and "conventional right effort" > that Luther and Erasmus had in the 1520s. <...> .... S: Thanks for sharing. As discussed, conditions can be complex and something we read or hear can be just the right thing at the right time. ... > What conditions development of insight? Wise attention and listening > to clear descriptions of characteristics of reality. ... S: Yes, and what do you mean by 'reality' here in the context of your post? ... > > > for Tep's quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? > > Just one? Then, let's go with MN 1, Mulapariyaya Sutta. > .... S: Another favourite of mind too....any aspect or section you'd like to highlight? Metta, Sarah ========= 47253 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? sarahprocter... Hi Phil & James, --- Philip wrote: I am finding myself less and less prone to judging Kh > Sujin, wondering why she is considered so wise and so on, though I > still do at times, naturally enough. I understand that the point is > no being in the presence of a wise woman, but being in the company > of right understanding - whoever it is arising through. ... S: I like the way you put this. And any understanding doesn't belong to her or you or me or anyone else. Conditioned dhammas -- nothing to be proud of at all. I'm reminded of my discussion with James. James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in suttas with our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at dhammas more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and mine. You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this because I see the truths as being common or universal. We all face the same real problems in life and the same delusions. (of course, any ariyans present don't suffer from any wrong views, but still moha, lobha and dosa to be seen). And yes, I see the practice as the understanding of such presently arising dhammas for any of us. You referred to my reference to 'learning'. Even the ariyans (apart from the arahants) are learners or sekha.....learning throught the practice of satipatthana until all defilements have been eradicated. I also like your use of 'unlearning' too, unlearning of unskilful thoughts and so on. However, to me that suggests that we may have started off without them which of course isn't true...they've been accumulated in lifetime after lifetime as we wearily wander round samsara. No we can't generalise and say that whoever lives this or that kind of lifestyle will go to hell or heaven and so on, but we can generalise and say that these states of mind will lead to good and those to bad. We can also generalise and say that for anyone, there is just one eightfold path which leads to release from samsara. Thanks again for your feedback -- as you say, it was good to look at the ways we reflect and find a sutta helpful. Another short favourite sutta or rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. So, as I see it, no need to cultivate more thoughts about 'me', when we're already experts at that. Again, you will see this differently, I'm sure. Metta, Sarah ========== 47254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa nilovg Dear Sarah, op 04-07-2005 10:48 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I had a few brief words with K.Sujin on this first point of yours the > other day when Jon was fixing the dates for our visit to Bkk en route to > and from Austalia in just over a couple of weeks. > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> N: I understood that even when there is tender insight there is no doubt >> that thinking about realities is a nama-element. > ... > S: Of course when there is any insight or panna, there’s no doubt, but KS > stressed there should be no expectation about what will be conditioned to > arise in future. --- N: I cannot remember in what context I wrote this. Was it the first point of questions? I cannot remember that I had questions. But as I understand, cinta-mayaa-paññaa can have different meanings. It is not simply just intellectual thinking about nama and rupa as we do now. This term is also used for tender insight, but I do not think much of these stages since they are beyond me at this moment. Of course, doubt can arise when one is not yet a sotaapanna. > .***** S: On another topic: >> I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the >> Sammaa-ditthi >> sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): > ... > (S: I just tried checking but I’m looking at the wheel and it’s not on > p11, which text are you looking at?) ------- N: my old edition, just a quote. It is in the Co on Ch I, in the beginning, right understanding is twofold.... >> > conforms >> with the knowledge of rise and fall of phenomena (udayabbayañaa.na) > .... > S: Thank you for this. Yes, I think anuloma nana has to be understood in > context, I believe....did you have any comments here? N: I think it is an example that anuloma does not only refer to the insight just before enlightenment. We were considering the insight of the Bodhisatta before, equanimity about formations and also concluded that this is not necessarily, in his case, just before enlightenment. Nina. 47255 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 5:42am Subject: Re: What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard - Thanks to Nina for taking time and being patient to answer questions. N: I do not claim to understand all of it! I try to keep to one issue at a time. Now we are dealing first with: what is breath, what is the nimitta of breath in samatha. I think we have to stick to this subject for a while. T: That is exactly what I call relevancy of the ongoing presentation (that is still at the ground 1 of the first tetrad). Thank you for initiating the one- idea-at-a-time approach. ------------------------------ N: The Yogavacara does not have to *think* of long or short breath, but he just keeps on attending to the breath where it touches the nosetip. T: Thinking is not meditating. N: As far as I understand, the development of samatha is different from thinking in a conventional way. T: You may say that again and often. Kind regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard and Tep, > Tep, there is no problem. Sarah speaks about insight. I would like to > consider first the nimitta of breath that is the object of samatha and even to the stage of jhana. So, Howards questions are a good opportunity to go into the subject of samatha more deeply. > 47256 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is attended to in Anapanasati Practice upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/4/05 3:31:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Tep, Tep, there is no problem. Sarah speaks about insight. I would like to consider first the nimitta of breath that is the object of samatha and even to the stage of jhana. So, Howards questions are a good opportunity to go into the subject of samatha more deeply. op 03-07-2005 22:03 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > Now, Nina, in my conversations with you, I have been maintaining that the > Buddha directed the meditator to attend to conventional objects such as the > breath (in order to subsequently get at the underlying experiential reqalities > and their nature). But you have maintained that the meaning was to attend to > the dhammas. ------ N: Perhaps I did not explain clearly. I wanted to make clear what breath is. It is a bodily phenomenon. It is conditioned. By what? Not by temperature, nutrition or kamma, but by citta. So long as there is citta, when we are alive, there is breath. But we cling to it, we cling to life, we cling to all objects experienced through the six doors. The aim of samatha is the elimination of attachment. Attachment to breath in this case. I think this has to be kept in mind from the beginning. In samatha one does not attend to the true nature of dhammas, the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Their true characteristics. Thus, Howard, I did not maintain that the meaning was to attend to the dhammas, that is the true nature of dhammas. The yogavacara attends to the rupa which is breath where it touches the nosetip. Some other meditation subjects of samatha are learned by sight, such as the kasinas. Breath is learnt by touch. There must be a rupa that impinges on a certain location or base. I hesitate to use the word concept, paññatti, and prefer nimitta, mental image. There is the learner's sign, when one begins, and then the nimitta becomes more perfected, becoming the counterpart sign as samatha develops. When jhaana is reached it has become very subtle. As said, I do not deal with insight yet. As far as I understand, the development of samatha is different from thinking in a conventional way. Nina. =========================== Thank you, Nina. I understand your intention now. Actually, I view anapanasati bhavana as the Buddha taught it to be a kind of in-tandem, samatha-vipassana cultivation, with samatha bhavana being primary at the outset, and with vipassana coming to the fore as useful factors develop and hindrances subside. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47257 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 4:27am Subject: Mutually Happy ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarah abbott who wrote: >I rather like this translation of 'unselfish joy' & >the simple but clear reminders of its great value. When 'you' are happy, 'I am' happy... When 'I am' happy, 'you' are happy... It is connected and infectious ;-) : - ] 47258 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 2:18am Subject: Why Not? ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Pros and Cons of Hedonism: Change!!!: If, friends, one is not freed of lust, desire, attraction, thirst, passion and craving for the manifold various forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, then with the inevitable change in & alteration of these forms, feelings, experiences, constructions & types of consciousness, one invariably experiences disappointment, dissatisfaction, discontent, frustration, sorrow, pain and despair... !!! One who lives immersed in these derivatives of greed, therefore suffers in this very life from the continual fever of wanting, needing, hankering, vexation and urge... Moreover, when dying and this body is breaking up, the greedy can expect a bad destination!!! This is the immanent danger & side-effect of desire & craving... If, however, one is freed of all lust, desire, attraction, thirst, passion and craving for the manifold various forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, then with the inevitable change in & alteration of these, one does not experience any disappointment, dissatisfaction, discontent, pain, frustration, sorrow, nor despair... Not living immersed in these derivatives of greed, one does therefore not suffer from any fever of neither wanting, nor vexation nor urge. Moreover, when dying & this body is breaking up, such cooled & calmed one can expect a good destination!!! This is the quite blissful advantage and assured benefit of removal desire and craving here & now... Hunting pleasure produces delayed & hidden pain... Relinquishing pleasure gives ease now & bliss later... Source: Venerable Sariputta, General of the Dhamma. The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III 7-9 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 47259 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/4/05 3:58:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Let me quote from the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha itself (PTS transl), prologue p7 (as opposed to BB’s summary in CMA): “Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’(As 112) For although such causal conditions as those of support and immediate contiguity are also relevant, consciousness does not arise in the absence of an object, and therefore its characteristic is spoken of with reference to that. This rejects the view that consciousness arises in the absence of an object. ======================== Yes, it does. However, the language here is less than optimal and does create the sense of an agent. The sentence "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object." is not a good one. This language presents consciousness as an entity that does something - that knows an object - rather much as people speak of persons knowing things. This is a misleading and even dangerous mode of explanation. It would be better to say that conscious is the knowing of an object or the event that is the experiential presence of an object. Consciousness should be presented as a cognitive event, and not as some "thing" that knows. It is an operation, function, or event, but not some "thing" that knows. A "thing" that knows is a kind of subject or self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47260 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 6:30am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] onco111 Dear Jon, You write: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different teachings." Don't you think that there is great benefit to describing things in a variety of ways? And continue: "It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-)). But perhaps you see some particular benefit?" Each is a description of realities and their conditional relations. Descriptions and the things described are strikingly different, and separating the two is central to the Dhamma. Reflecting on how the same realities can be described by very different words helps clarify the distinction between concept and reality. Metta, Dan 47261 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 6:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: Outside the Dispensation for Dan... onco111 Dear Sarah, > S: :-) You said it! At least when another thorn comes along, we can say, 'well, there's hope -- look at Dan';). HA! I'm still a thorn, but I'm a feather in your cap too. > S: ... As discussed, conditions can be complex and > something we read or hear can be just the right thing at the right time. Yup. Lots of ways to describe realities, and one of the descriptions of one aspect might be just the right thing at the right time. This is what makes a live teacher (at least a really good live teacher) so much better than reading -- he/she can discern what needs to be heard at the moment it needs to be heard and then provide it. 99.9% of the time reading doesn't give the right thing at the right time. > ... > > What conditions development of insight? Wise attention and listening > > to clear descriptions of characteristics of reality. > ... > S: Yes, and what do you mean by 'reality' here in the context of your > post? > ... I was thinking in particular about silabbataparamasa and samma- vayama. > > > for Tep's quiz? Dan....any favourite sutta ? > > > > Just one? Then, let's go with MN 1, Mulapariyaya Sutta. > > > .... > S: Another favourite of mind too....any aspect or section you'd like to > highlight? Oh, Sarah, you are so hard! This sutta is so rich with meaning that I don't know where to begin. But very briefly, it discusses two central topics -- the beginning is the development of a clear understanding of the distinction between reality and concept and that the end is the deep understanding that the "I" is also concept that arises as/with/in attachment to either concept or reality. It's been awhile since I've read this one, so no details. Metta, Dan 47262 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: Appropriate Attention versus Panna Accumulation buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for clarifying certain things for me, now I understand what you mean when you say : "Experiencing two realities at the same time is a fanciful conception". There is one issue remaining. You are trying to explain a conventional truth, using the truths about ultimate realities, concerning "This is insight". Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > > Tep: "BTW: what is wrong with the thought, "this is insight"?" > > L: Whatever "this" refers to is gone plus the thought "this is insight" > isn't an uncompounded reality. By "uncompounded reality" I mean a > khandha, an element of what the Visuddhimagga calls a "compact whole". Some people may object to this terminology because "sankhara" can mean either compounded or conditioned. Khandhas are conditioned and one of the functions of sankhara khandha is to compound. Except in the case of the wisdom cetasika which experiences consciousnesses one at a time (or, "as khandhas"). However, this is a rather loose generalization and > probably an overstatement. The actual nature of experience can't really > be pinned down with words, of which this has been too many. > > Larry 47263 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is breath? To Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, reading your former post again something strikes me. Beginning with the first sentence. op 03-07-2005 19:33 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > op 02-07-2005 21:37 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > >> -- Anapanasati bhavana is a conventional practice teaching of the >> Buddha that leads "to the direct wisdom that actually reveals" >> the "reality insights". ---------- N: And again further on: -------- H: "...it is only by means of directing attention to the conventional > objects such as the breath that conceptually unconstructed phenomena such >> as solidity, motion, warmth, moistness etc can be approached in order >> to directly observe the tilakkhana and paticcasamupada at the >> nonconceptual level". ----------- N: I may misunderstand you, but it seems that you think that mindfulness of breath itself leads to this. From the texts I understand that the yogavacara attains jhaana with this subject and that he then, after having emerged from jhaana, has to develop all the stages of insight. He has to be mindful of whatever nama or rupa appears, including the jhaanafactors. Now, I just read your last post: ----------- H:Actually, I view anapanasati bhavana as the Buddha taught it to be a kind of in-tandem, samatha-vipassana cultivation, with samatha bhavana being primary at the outset, and with vipassana coming to the fore as useful factors develop and hindrances subside. -------- N: I also think that both are developed. We found this in the Path of Discrimination: serenity and insight. But there are different interpretations as to in which way. Nina. Nina. 47264 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Hi Sarah, One comment from the commentary you quoted: "the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking." L: I understand "a relative manner of speaking" to mean "not really". See long quotation in next post, "knowing an object". As for the nature of visible object, you could well be right that it is one consciousness of multiple colors and brightnesses (aka "light"). I don't have a clear experiential sense of it. Could you give an example of visible object (paramattha dhamma) as object of desire? Regarding the question of where in the Satipatthana Sutta is there an indication of cognizing own-nature (sabhava) you answered that own-nature is the distinguishing characteristic of a reality. I think we have to say a little more than that. Eye-consciousness 'knows' (in the Biblical sense) the distinguishing characteristic of visible object which is color or light. But only wisdom (paññaa) 'knows' the own-nature of visible object. I would propose that own-nature is the elemental nature. In other words, the parts of an apparent whole. In the suttas this is discussed as khandhas, and the commentaries refined this with the doctrine of momentariness, i.e., one consciousness at a time. I think "body in the body" is a precursor to that. What this means is that all consciousnesses except one rooted in wisdom 'know' only 'wholes', while a wisdom consciousness is the experience of that apparent whole as a congeries of elements. For this reason, I would say what desire desires is always an apparent whole, which in abhidhamma is classified as a concept. Larry 47265 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:23pm Subject: knowing an object lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Here is a quotation from the Visuddhimagga that may help in understanding what it means to know an object: Vism.XV,41 Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face. Or else, the eye-element should be regarded as sugarcane or sesamum, the visible-data element as the [sugarcane] mill or the [sesamum] wheel rod, and the eye-consciousness element as the sugarcane juice or the sesamum oil. Likewise, the eye-element should be regarded as the lower fire-stick, the visible-data element as the upper fire-stick, and the eye-consciousness element as the fire. So too in the case of the ear and so on. 42. The mind element, however, should be regarded as the forerunner and the follower of eye-consciousness, etc., as that arises. As to the mental-data element, the feeling aggregate should be regarded as a dart and as a stake, the perception and formations aggregates as a disease owing to their connexion with the dart and stake of feeling. Or the ordinary man's perception should be regarded as an empty fist because it produces pain through [disappointed] desire; or as a forest deer [with a scarecrow] because it apprehends the sign incorrectly. And the formations aggregate should be regarded as men who throw one into a pit of hot coals, because they throw one into rebirth-linking, or as thieves pursued by the king's men because they are pursued by the pains of birth; or as the seeds of a poison-tree, because they are the root-cause of the aggregates' continuity, which brings all kinds of harm. And materiality should be regarded as a razor-wheel (see Jaa.iv,3), because it is the sign of various dangers. The unformed element, however, should be regarded as deathless, as peace, as safety. Why? Because it is the opposite of all ill. 43. The mind-consciousness element should be regarded as a forest monkey, because it does not stay still on its object; or as a wild horse, because it is difficult to tame; or as a stick flung into the air, because it falls anyhow; or as a stage dancer, because it adopts the guise of the various defilements such as greed and hate. Larry: As a stage dancer a consciousness rooted in greed adopts the guise of greed, not the guise of the object of greed. As a mirror the eye-element reacts to visible data; the eye-consciousness element is that reaction. In both cases there is a relation to an object but it is misleading to say consciousness cognizes the object. Larry 47266 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 7:27pm Subject: Vism.XIV,170 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 170. (30)-(31) As regards the two [kinds of unprofitable consciousness] rooted in hate, there are, firstly, eighteen associated with the first (30), that is, eleven constant given in the texts as such, four or-whatever-states, and three inconstant. Herein the eleven given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), (xlv) hate, delusion (xl). The four or-whatever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), agitation (xlii), attention (xxx) The three inconstant are these: (xlvi) envy, (xlvii) avarice, (xlviii) worry. 47267 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 9:10pm Subject: 7 Invisible Diamonds ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Seven Good Mental Qualities: What are they? The Faith of conviction. The Shame of conscience. The Fear of wrongdoing. The Learning of intelligence. The Awareness of mindfulness. The Understanding of wisdom. Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya III 252 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html The Moderated Speeches of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya I 356 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 47268 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Phil & James, > > --- Philip wrote: > > I am finding myself less and less prone to judging Kh > > Sujin, wondering why she is considered so wise and so on, though I > > still do at times, naturally enough. I understand that the point is > > no being in the presence of a wise woman, but being in the company > > of right understanding - whoever it is arising through. > ... > S: I like the way you put this. And any understanding doesn't belong to > her or you or me or anyone else. Conditioned dhammas -- nothing to be > proud of at all. I'm reminded of my discussion with James. > > James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in suttas with > our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at dhammas > more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and mine. James: I didn't comment about 'dhammas', I commented about the content of suttas. > You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this because I > see the truths as being common or universal. James: Then, in other words, you speak in a generalized way because you believe that you embody the 'truths'? Do you believe that everyone embodies the 'truths'? Aren't there differences between people? Why can't you single yourself out as being different from others? Why can't you see the dhamma in a more personalized way, as applying to you and your life? We all face the same real > problems in life and the same delusions. (of course, any ariyans present > don't suffer from any wrong views, but still moha, lobha and dosa to be > seen). And yes, I see the practice as the understanding of such presently > arising dhammas for any of us. James: Again, I wasn't talking about 'dhammas', I was talking about DN 8 "The Great Lion's Roar". The Buddha doesn't mention 'dhammas' in that sutta. > > You referred to my reference to 'learning'. Even the ariyans (apart from > the arahants) are learners or sekha.....learning throught the practice of > satipatthana until all defilements have been eradicated. I also like your > use of 'unlearning' too, unlearning of unskilful thoughts and so on. > However, to me that suggests that we may have started off without them > which of course isn't true...they've been accumulated in lifetime after > lifetime as we wearily wander round samsara. James: It doesn't suggest that to me because I consider anatta and know that there isn't a fixed 'starting point'. I wonder why you see anatta in places that I don't and I see anatta in places that you don't? ;-) > > No we can't generalise and say that whoever lives this or that kind of > lifestyle will go to hell or heaven and so on, but we can generalise and > say that these states of mind will lead to good and those to bad. We can > also generalise and say that for anyone, there is just one eightfold path > which leads to release from samsara. Agreed. > > Thanks again for your feedback -- as you say, it was good to look at the > ways we reflect and find a sutta helpful. Another short favourite sutta or > rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika > which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. James: No, that sutta said that Queen Mallika found herself dearest, not that everyone does that; and the Buddha agreed that we should each hold ourselves dearest. Maybe you should re-visit that sutta. So, as I see it, > no need to cultivate more thoughts about 'me', when we're already experts > at that. I wasn't suggesting to cultivate more thoughts about 'me'; I was suggesting that maybe it isn't healthy or natural to blur the distinctions between me, you, and us. > > Again, you will see this differently, I'm sure. James: Oh, let's focus more on where we agree than where we disagree. Believe it or not, I am trying to work toward agreement. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========== Metta, James 47269 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 4, 2005 11:31pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 240 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] We read in As it was said (Itivuttaka, The Twos, Chapter II, §3, Khuddaka Nikåya): * "This was said by the Exalted One… “Monks, ignorance leads the way to the attainment of unprofitable things; shamelessness and disregard of blame follow after. But, monks, knowledge leads the way to the attainment of profitable things, shrinking and fear of blame follow after.” This is the meaning… Whatso be these ill-bourns in this world and the next, All rooted are in ignorance, of lust compounded. And since the wicked man is void of shame, and has No reverence, therefore he works wickedness, And through that wickedness he to the Downfall goes. Wherefore forsaking longing, lust and ignorance And causing knowledge to arise in him, a monk Should give up, leave behind, the ill-bourns one and all…" * When we see that all akusala dhammas are ugly and impure, we do not neglect mindfulness of realities, such as hardness, seeing or sound which appear at this moment. This is the only way to develop the wisdom which can eradicate defilements. For the arahat there are no conditions for akusala and thus shamelessness and recklessness do not arise. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47270 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] cinta-mayaa-paññaa sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > S: Of course when there is any insight or panna, there’s no doubt, but > KS > > stressed there should be no expectation about what will be conditioned > to > > arise in future. > --- > N: I cannot remember in what context I wrote this. Was it the first > point of > questions? I cannot remember that I had questions. ... S: It was in the context of a discussion you were having with Phil & Dan (starting June 11th) which I joined in. .... > But as I understand, cinta-mayaa-paññaa can have different meanings. It > is > not simply just intellectual thinking about nama and rupa as we do now. > This term is also used for tender insight, ... S: Yes. ... > but I do not think much of > these > stages since they are beyond me at this moment. Of course, doubt can > arise > when one is not yet a sotaapanna. ... S: Yes, all agreed.I may well have misunderstood sth you wrote before about 'no doubt' or 'no thinking'. .... > > .***** > S: On another topic: > >> I found another passage about anuloma ñaa.na, in the Co to the > >> Sammaa-ditthi > >> sutta, in a footnote (p. 11): > > ... > > (S: I just tried checking but I’m looking at the wheel and it’s not on > > p11, which text are you looking at?) > ------- > N: my old edition, just a quote. It is in the Co on Ch I, in the > beginning, > right understanding is twofold.... ... S: I still can't find it - are you looking at Nanamoli wheel transl? the new version is revised by Bodhi (maybe missed out). I don't think I have my original anymore - we replaced many old, bug-infested copies. I do have nin n2 "knowledge in conformity with the truths (saccaanulomika~naa.na) is conceptual knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, accompanied by understanding and acceptance of them." Anuloma - in conformity with... .... > >> >> conforms > >> with the knowledge of rise and fall of phenomena (udayabbayañaa.na) > > > .... > N: I think it is an example that anuloma does not only refer to the > insight > just before enlightenment. We were considering the insight of the > Bodhisatta > before, equanimity about formations and also concluded that this is not > necessarily, in his case, just before enlightenment. > Nina. ... S: Right - KS also stresses the different meanings of anuloma in the texts. In the particular passages we were discussing before with Dhammanando, even if the comy passages made it clear that anuloma was referring to just before enlight, I don't believe, as I wrote in a 'Musings', it means knowl about formations had to be in that life. I also came across another ref in Dispeller to the cula-sotapanna and fixed destiny etc. **** new topic ...... #47111 Vism, conceit Wonderful reminders. I always appreciate the ones about the banner and 'vaingloriousness' or 'flaunting of a flag'. on the India 01 tapes, KS was speaking graphically about flying the 'empty balloon'. Just air....conceit on account of mere elements - visible object, sound, hardness and various namas which don't belong to anyone. So absurd!! When she refers to the balloon, do you think it's another translation of the Pali used for banner or her own metaphor? Just curious. Many thanks for all your work (& Larry's) on these installments. Metta, Sarah ========= 47271 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm sarahprocter... Hi RobM, Always good to see the Robs around.... we're waiting for Rob Ep to make a star appearance too:). --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. ... S: I'd be interested to hear any of your comments on the article. Do you agree with it all? Anything to discuss? Btw, pls take a look at Alice's post #47180. You probably didn't see it, but a short while ago she told us the sad story of how her young niece had been bullied and had jumped from a roof-top to end her young life. The father she refers to in this post is the girl's father. Alice lives in Penang. You may have some helpful comments too. See also Phil's post #47189 w/regard to yr book in case you have further comments. I forget what else, another earlier one of Phil's perhaps? You could search for Rob, but you might get another Rob or two in the process:). Metta, Sarah p.s Are you in KL or back in Canada for the summer? We have another new member, Tom A from Toronto -- he hasn't missed a day of meditation since 1968 if I recall correctly. ===== 47272 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! / Susima Sutta sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I've hesitated about continuing this thread, but a few comments perhaps... ... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > The Susima Sutta is probably one of a few that strongly supports > gaining insight knowledge directly -- the overwhelming majority of the > suttas are about samatha first then vipassana, vipassana first then > samatha, or samatha-vipassana yoked together. Thanissaro > Bhikkhu's note on Susima Sutta is very imformative and should be > read. ... S: Thank you for posting it. I agree that if one reads the sutta alone, that it's possible for some, like B.T. to read it with the interptetation he does. However, if one reads it in the light of its commentary especially or Abhidhamma (or possibly even other suttas), I think it's impossible to read it this way as suggesting jhanas must be attained first. So it may come down to whether we give our own interpretations or those of the ancient commentators more credence, don't you think? Samatha-vipassana are yoked together, as I understand, at the vipassana nanas. There is samatha (calm) with each moment of kusala. Pehaps you are referring to jhana attainement or samatha development at least in your comments above? There is a lot in U.P. on this topic generally - 'Susima', 'Jhana & Nibbana' etc, but I don't mind if you'd like to pursue it. Metta, Sarah ======== > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.70: Susima Sutta, About Susima > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-070.html > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced > the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this > assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that > they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the > definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they > have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical > contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states > beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no > different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions > > for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and > AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings > on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new > arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first > jhana before attaining Awakening. [endquote] 47273 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Detachment sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > > Hi all > > A, Sujin: "If panna is keen enough it can follow any reality with > detachment. So they rise together - right understanding and detachment." > > Is detachment the cetasika alobha? ... S: Yes. Pls see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38066 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38303 Sometime I also double-checked with K.Sujin that it is alobha she is referring to when she talks about detachment and she agreed it was. Metta, Sarah ========= 47274 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 robmoult Hi Alice, I have been following your story with interest. I am a Mat Salleh living in KL, teaching Abhidhamma for the past few years at Brickfields Vihara on Sunday mornings. Have you met with Ven Suvanno at Mi Tor Si Vihara? He has an excellent collection of Dhamma Talks in Hokkien on CD. They would make great listening material during your travel to and from the office. I would like to share with you my view on your niece's death. During her life, your niece had an influence on many other people. It sounds as though she was a pleasure to be around. She had an impact on those close to her and because of that impact, those close to her were changed, ever so slightly, for the better. This change in the people close to her caused an even slighter change in other people with whom they came into contact. And the circle of influence spread. I think of a pebble thrown into a pond. The waves move out in concentric circles. Even though the source of the disturbance is gone, the waves continue and the centre-point of the ripples remains the same. I encourage you to celebrate the existence of your niece. Depression was a natural first reaction. That's okay and expected. It gives time for the open wound to heal over. Karuna, Rob M :-) 47275 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:41am Subject: on the book by Pa auk sayadaw and other qus of LK's sarahprocter... Hi LK, I have several of your old posts to respond to, but have delayed because I haven’t seen your name for a while. I’ll make a brief start and maybe you can kindly confirm you’re reading the message. As there are several unrelated points, I’ll use note form: 1. off-list, you kindly wrote: LK: > Thank you very much for all your great kindness so far . > > "pabhassaramidam bhikkhave cittam " > > As I wrote earlier, Pa auk sayadaw referes to that verse in 4th > chapter of his book "The light of wisdom " > > There are only the 1st to 3rd chapter at > http://www.btinternet.com/~maunglwin/nibbanacom/l_of_w01.htm#lightofwi > sdom > where I posted before. > > If you like to read the complete English version, you can request it > at http://www.geocities.com/wave_books/freebooks.htm > > If you read Chinese , you can download the chinese version on > http://www.nmzx.com/xmfk/a5.html ... S: As I wrote before, I appreciated all your help here. (I don’t read Chinese). Luminous – v.difficult topic. I understand, it can either refer to the rupas (as Pa auk Sayadaw makes clear and is referred to in connection with the imperfections of insight (the obhaasa) as Nina also recently referred to #47138, and also the cittas as Ven Samahita referred to recently #47216. As I understand, all cittas are clear (pandara), but some, such as the bhavanga cittas referred to in this sutta, AN 1:11 are also luminous (pabhassara) along with all others except for akusala cittas. Also the rupas conditioned by these which have wholesome roots (as the commentary and sub-commentary clarifies). We had another long discussion on this last time we were in Bangkok and I intended to write more by way of a Musing, but ran out of steam (also on stages of insight and some of the points I raised in a post to Tep the other day). Other Qus that may not have been answered or I may have missed when I was travelling (pls ignore if so): 2. #43751 You asked (to Howard): ‘Were those rebirths in Jataka (as animals) taken after his rebirth as a Sumeda who aspired with firm resolution to become a Buddha?’ ... S: Yes, as I understand. All the Jatakas refer to lives as a bodhisatta. The stories within the main Jataka stories may be to previous lives before these. ***** 3. #43508 you quoted (to Joop): ‘Although the Theravada holds than anybody can be a Bodhisattva...’ S: I think this is quite wrong. Very specific conditions. ‘The decision is left to the individual whether to take the Path of the Sravaka or the Pratyekabuddha or of the Samyaksambuddha’. S: No, this is not the Theravada teaching as I understand it. Also, just because someone writes or says ‘may I become a Buddha’ does not mean they are a bodhisatta. Same for the comment about all the bodhisattas in Theravada Buddhist countries just by their vows or resolutions. ***** #43744 you asked (to RobK) ‘What are the objects of Buddha’s knowledge of past and future?’ S: I understand that as the quote you gave said ‘ entirely actual experience since it is devoid of assumption based on inference, tradition or conjecture’. In other words, paramattha dhammas, explained in conventional language. In other words ‘formed’ and ‘unformed’ dhammas, using concepts about these. ***** #43869 you asked (to Tep): ’What and Where are the cetasikas in the lokuttaracitta when the subsequent reviewing knowledge takes one of them as its object?’ S: Completely fallen away, but the characteristic of that citta or cetasika can be the object of the reviewing knowledge. It’s exactly the same as when a mind door citta takes a sense door object such as visible object or sound as object. It also helps me understand the Qu of yours before. ***** #43747 you wrote (to Charles D) ‘As far as I know, Theravada says that there were and are and will be Bodhisattas in the human, deva and brahma realms whereas Mahayana says Bodhisattvas were and are and will be in all the 6 realms.’ S: Someone else needs to help me clarify here.... Bodhisattas can also be reborn in animal and even hell realms as we read in the Jatakas....They are not sotapannas. ***** That’s it for now. Very interesting points of yours that I’d put aside, waiting for your appearance! Hope to hear from you. Feel free to break them into different threads, if there are any to pursue further. I’ve given very cryptic comments here according to my very limited understanding of the points. Metta, Sarah ======= 47276 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. > ... > S: I'd be interested to hear any of your comments on the article. Do you > agree with it all? Anything to discuss? > ===== I thought that Ajahn Brahm did an excellent job of explaining attachment and reconciling this with formal meditation practice. This is a point that I have been trying (unsucessfully) to communicate with Ken H. My wife just returned from a 10 day retreat with Ajahn Brahm (I stayed at home and played "Mr. Mom"). She signed me up for Ajahn Brahm's next retreat in Malaysia, to be held in December. ===== > p.s Are you in KL or back in Canada for the summer? We have another new > member, Tom A from Toronto -- he hasn't missed a day of meditation since > 1968 if I recall correctly. ===== Wow! That is quite a record. Still in KL on the weekends; rest of the week, still traveling about Asia. Probably won't make it home to Toronto this year. Metta, Rob M :-) 47277 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: out of social context sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Hallo Sarah > > Message from the Tourist Ofiice with view on the Mont Blanc ... S: Which one? Chamonix?? i'm thinking of the internet in the tourist office in Kandesteg -- but no view of Mont Blanc...wish we were with you!! ... > I knew already that the added dhammas occured in the Suttas. And I am > sure > the social citta does too. In fact the Buddha was very social; caring > and > concerned about people and other beings. He was more social than many of > > his monk-followers; especally the monks who composed the > Abhidhamma-books were rather autistic is my impression. > S: The greatest imaginable and unimaginable compassion and metta. All the disciples had different accumulations – look at Maha Kassapa who led a very ‘secluded’ life but who was so very highly esteemed and presided over the First Council proceedings. We can’t judge someone’s compassion or lack of it by how sociable they are can we? I think that those who preserved the teachings were extremely compassionate. I know that the Abhidhamma seems very dry and ‘social-less’, but I think that if we take away the stories in the suttas, the same ‘skeleton’ of dhammas is there. Just more details in the Abhidhamma.... Look at Sariputta who elaborated on the Abhidhamma.....great compassion and happy to be like the dustrag for others to ‘tread on’ in anyway. ..... >>. So by the time there > is an > > `immediate awareness of the presence of another being', countless > numbers > > of processes of cittas have arisen and passed away after seeing or > other > > sense door experiences. > > .... > Joop: I know: and that an argument for my hypothesis that immidiate > awarenes ... is a citta itself. ... S: Or cetasikas arising with cittas.... Enjoy the rest of your hikes....hope you’re having good weather. We had snow at this time last year in your region. Metta, Sarah ======== 47278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg]conceit. nilovg Dear Sarah, op 05-07-2005 09:12 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I always appreciate the ones about the banner and 'vaingloriousness' or > 'flaunting of a flag'. on the India 01 tapes, KS was speaking graphically > about flying the 'empty balloon'. Just air....conceit on account of mere > elements - visible object, sound, hardness and various namas which don't > belong to anyone. So absurd!! When she refers to the balloon, do you think > it's another translation of the Pali used for banner or her own metaphor? ---- N: Ketu is a banner and dhajo is a flag. The balloon is not in the text, but it is also very effective to convey the absurdity of conceit. Nina. 47279 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 robmoult Hi Alice, You might want to download the MP3 file on "Buddhist Attitude Toward Death and Life" by Ajahn Brahm from the following site: http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?cid=4&lid=197 He is a very entertaining speaker, well versed in the Dhamma. Karuna, Rob M :-) 47280 From: "balancing_life" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 3:32am Subject: The Chant of Metta balancing_life The Chant of Metta Flash animation of The Chant of Metta. groups.northwestern.edu/bsg/Metta.htm The Chant of Metta Aham avero homi abyapajjho homi anigho homi sukhi-attanam pariharami Mama matapitu acariya ca natimitta ca sabrahma-carino ca avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Imasmim arame sabbe yogina avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Imasmim arame sabbe bhikkhu samanera ca upasaka-upasikayo ca avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Amhakam catupaccaya-dayaka avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Amhakam arakkha devata imasmim vihare imasmim avase imasmim arame arakkha devata avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Sabbe satta sabbe pana sabbe bhuta sabbe puggala sabbe attabhava-pariyapanna sabba itthiyo sabbe purisa sabbe ariya sabbe anariya sabbe deva sabbe manussa sabbe vinipatika avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Dukkha mucantu Yatha-laddha-sampattito mavigacchantu Kammassaka Puratthimaya disaya pacchimaya disaya uttaraya disaya dakkhinaya disaya puratthimaya anudisaya pacchimaya anudisaya uttaraya anudisaya dakkhinaya anudisaya hetthimaya disaya uparimaya disaya sabbe satta sabbe pana sabbe bhuta sabbe puggala sabbe attabhava-pariyapanna sabba itthiyo sabbe purisa sabbe ariya sabbe anariya sabbe deva sabbe manussa sabbe vinipatika avera hontu abyapajjha hontu anigha hontu sukhi-attanam pariharantu Dukkha muccantu Yatha-laddha-sampattito mavigacchantu Kammassaka Uddham yava bhavagga ca adho yava aviccito samanta cakkavalesu ye satta pathavicara abyapajjha nivera ca nidukha ca nupaddava Uddham yava bhavagga ca adho yava aviccito samanta cakkavalesu ye satta udakecara abyapajjha nivera ca nidukha ca nupaddava Uddham yava bhavagga ca adho yava aviccito samanta cakkavalesu ye satta akasecara abyapajjha nivera ca nidukha ca nupaddava May I be free from enmity and danger May I be free from mental suffering May I be free from physical suffering May I take care of myself happily May my parents teachers, relatives and friends fellow Dhammafarers be free from enimity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of thenselves happily May all yogis in this compound be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May all monks in this compound novice monks laymen and laywomen disciples be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May our donors of the four supports be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May our guardian devas in this monastery in this dwelling in this compound may the guardian devas be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering May they take care of themselves happily May all beings all breathing things all creatures all individuals all personalities may all females all males all noble one all worldlings all deities all humans all those in the four woeful planes be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering may they take care of themselves happily May all beings be free from suffering May whatever they have gained not be lost All beings are owners of their kamma In the eastern direction in the western direction in the northern direction in the southern direction in the southeast direction in the northwest direction in the northeast direction in the southwest direction in the direction below in the direction above may all beings all breathing things all creatures all individuals all personalities may all females all males all noble one all worldlings all deities all humans all those in the four woeful planes be free from enmity and danger be free from mental suffering be free from physical suffering may they take care of themselves happily May all beings be free from suffering May whatever they have gained not be lost All beings are owners of their kamma As far as the highest plane of existence to as far down as the lowest plane in the entire universe whatever beings that move on earth may they be free from mental suffering & enmity and from physical suffering and danger As far as the highest plane of existence to as far down as the lowest plane in the entire universe whatever beings that move on water may they be free from mental suffering & enmity and from physical suffering and danger As far as the highest plane of existence to as far down as the lowest plane in the entire universe whatever beings that move in air may they be free from mental suffering & enmity and from physical suffering and danger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta is a Pali word meaning loving-kindness. Metta chanting is the radiation of loving-kindness towards all beings: May they all be happy, peaceful & sound. Imee Ooi chants the Pali beautifully in the first track and in the second track she renders it wonderfully, too, in English with the Pali faintly audible in the background. Metta chanting is soothing, uplifting, joyful and a great healing for the world ~ pervading it with waves of love. Truly, may all beings be happy. May they live always in peace & harmony. Distributed by Sukhi Hotu Sdn Bhd 11A, 1st Floor, Jalan SS24/8, Tmn Megah, 47301 Petaling Jaya, Malaysia. Tel: 603 7062833 Fax: 603 7062733 42V, Jalan Matang Kuching, 11500 Air Hitam, Penang, Malaysia. Tel: 604 8277188 Fax: 604 8277118 Email: sukhihotu@... Online listening metta.ram - RealAudio for 56k modem metta28.ram - RealAudio for 28k modem metta28.wax - Windows Media Audio for 28k modem Downloads metta.mp3 - MP3 64kbps Stereo (4,362KB) metta.rm - RealAudio for 56k modem (2,265KB) metta28.rm - RealAudio for 28k modem (1,447KB) metta28.wma - Windows Media Audio for 28k modem (1,416KB) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 47281 From: "balancing_life" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 3:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism - To Rob balancing_life Thanks a lot, Rob, for taking your time & trouble, to write to me, regarding your explanation about my niece...i appreciate it. Unfortunately, i live in Penang, so where can i get this CD of Ven Suvanno? I have heard of his name before somewhere...i think he is quite famous here in Penang also, but heard that he has retired from giving talks already or in seclusion somewhere. At the moment, i am listening to this, which is very relaxing, soothing & calming, to my nerves :- (will email the wordings/lyrics in another email as it is quite long) The Chant of Metta Flash animation of The Chant of Metta. groups.northwestern.edu/bsg/Metta.htm & in one of the wordings is "kammasaka", meaning "All beings are owners of their own kamma". After hearing this, i also realised that there was nothing i could have done for her and sad to say, but i am quite relieved to hear of that. Also, i am listening to the "Ta Bei Chou/Chow" or called the Great Mantra in Sanskrit/Pali, but sadly i have been unable to find the wordings/lyrics to this song, as i would really like to learn how to chant it...perhaps, Rob or anyone here have any leads to this? Namaste to all, :} AliceInAfterWorkingHoursLand (6.30pm, Tuesday, 5th July) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: Hi Alice, I have been following your story with interest. I am a Mat Salleh living in KL, teaching Abhidhamma for the past few years at Brickfields Vihara on Sunday mornings. Have you met with Ven Suvanno at Mi Tor Si Vihara? He has an excellent collection of Dhamma Talks in Hokkien on CD. They would make great listening material during your travel to and from the office. <...> 47282 From: "balancing_life" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 3:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhismLand - Thanks Rob balancing_life Hi Rob, Thanks again for your care & concern about our welfare, Rob. Will download it the moment, when i have the time for it, as i have recently moved office and still haven't unpacked my office stuff as yet as i am still in the process of doing back-logged work, since we moved 2 weeks ago & a host of ad-hoc jobs as well. Namaste & Peace to all, :} AliceInAppreciationOfRobLand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Alice, > > You might want to download the MP3 file on "Buddhist Attitude Toward > Death and Life" by Ajahn Brahm from the following site: > > http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?cid=4&lid=197 > > He is a very entertaining speaker, well versed in the Dhamma. > > Karuna, > Rob M :-) 47283 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism - To Rob robmoult Hi Alice, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "balancing_life" wrote: > Thanks a lot, Rob, for taking your time & trouble, to write to me, > regarding your explanation about my niece...i appreciate it. > > Unfortunately, i live in Penang, so where can i get this CD of Ven > Suvanno? > > I have heard of his name before somewhere...i think he is quite > famous here in Penang also, but heard that he has retired from giving > talks already or in seclusion somewhere. ===== Ven Suvanno's temple is in Penang. Jalan Ayer Hitam past the roundabout on the way to Penang hill, turn left after the white apartment building, park at the end of the street and climb the hill to the small Vihara on your right. (Directions are approximate, one of your friends at the Mahindarama Temple should be able to give more precise directions). It is true that Ven Suvanno is old (86) and not well. He has retired from public speaking, but he is a delight to visit. You can ask him for a set of his CDs. Sister Metta is usually around and could get a set for you as well. I suggest that you visit him some day before 11:30 so that you can offer lunch dana. ===== > > At the moment, i am listening to this, which is very relaxing, > soothing & calming, to my nerves :- (will email the wordings/lyrics > in another email as it is quite long) > > The Chant of Metta ====== Is this the CD by Imee Ooi? If so, it is one of the most beautiful CDs I have ever heard. If you don't have this CD by Imee Oooi, I strongly recommend you get it (it can be bought from Sukhi Hontu in Penang). ===== > Flash animation of The Chant of Metta. > groups.northwestern.edu/bsg/Metta.htm > > & in one of the wordings is "kammasaka", meaning "All beings are > owners of their own kamma". > > After hearing this, i also realised that there was nothing i could > have done for her and sad to say, but i am quite relieved to hear of > that. ===== Celebrate her life, don't dwell on her death. The mental states of you and her father are creating your kamma. Let your niece be a condition for positive, healthy mental states to create good kamma! ===== > > Also, i am listening to the "Ta Bei Chou/Chow" or called the Great > Mantra in Sanskrit/Pali, but sadly i have been unable to find the > wordings/lyrics to this song, as i would really like to learn how to > chant it...perhaps, Rob or anyone here have any leads to this? ===== Sorry, can't help you on this. If it is in Sanskrit, it is a Mahayana Sutra and I would not be familiar with it. Metta, Rob M :-) 47284 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 nilovg Hi Rob M, Nice to see you again. I appreciate what you wrote to Alice, and I can apply it in my situation, still mourning for my father after five months. As you say, the wound needs time to heal. But I like the pebble simile. We still have his speeches in Parliament, his memoires, and my niece wirtes a book about him. All the good he has done can still be noticed. Ripples going on. Thanking you for your words, Nina. op 05-07-2005 10:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@...: > She had an impact > on those close to her and because of that impact, those close to her > were changed, ever so slightly, for the better. This change in the > people close to her caused an even slighter change in other people > with whom they came into contact. And the circle of influence spread. > > I think of a pebble thrown into a pond. The waves move out in > concentric circles. Even though the source of the disturbance is > gone, the waves continue and the centre-point of the ripples remains > the same. > > I encourage you to celebrate the existence of your niece. Depression > was a natural first reaction. That's okay and expected. It gives time > for the open wound to heal over. 47285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]Bodhisattas nilovg Hi Sarah, Yes, in many lives he was a wise animal, or a leader of the herd. Also in Hell, he referred to that in the Mughapakkha Jataka. Nina. op 05-07-2005 10:41 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > S: Someone else needs to help me clarify here.... Bodhisattas can also be > reborn in animal and even hell realms as we read in the Jatakas....They > are not sotapannas. 47286 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 168, prompted. ksheri3 good Morning Nina, et al, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > > op 01-07-2005 16:37 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > > > > colette: you speak of "Doubt" since hesitation implies a tinge, the > > presence of UNCERTAINTY, question. ... > > > > Notice the interplay between kusala and akusala. Each is in their own > > respect with their own volition. They are stirred, my phraseology, > > and rise respectively to the inherent volition. Now add the 'spice' > > of "DOUBT, or "UNCERTAINTY", and consider, ponder, the condition of > > the kusala or/and akusala after the catalyst of Doubt or Uncertainty > > has been added to the mix... > ------ > N: Hesitation is only a means of explaining the nature of citta, it does not > mean doubt as taught in the Tipitaka: doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, > the Sangha, doubt about nama and rupa. colette: Well said. ---------- > Doubt only arises with akusala citta rooted in ignorance. colette: Fancy that, what is ignorance? After my automobile accident causing my first and most profound near death experience I regained consciousness, boy am I in trouble using that word by my own definition of non-definition, I found an insatiable urge to EXPERIENCE as much and whatever I could. It almost seems as though there was the little man on my should asking me questions like: how do you know, are you sure, etc. <...> Citta & Cetaseka interesting aspects of a conditioned reality. My understanding of a citta is simply the realization, see the judicial process called "Discovery" where the arbituers reduce individuals to nothing more than a set of equations in a two dimensional format. I am definately considering the condition you state below that may give my mind better enlightenment, yet I've got the urge for Zolog and Vipissanna meditations, this wk. -------------- > Certain terms are used to explain realities, and they do not have the same > meaning as terms we use in conventional language. This is difficult, but we > can get used to it when we study them one at a time. colette: yes, things have to be rationalized, realized, and acquired, one at a time. Very methodical I may add. toodles, colette 47287 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] A sutta here, a sutta there... ksheri3 Hi Sarah, The Sutta I read helped me to express my actual feelings more precisely, to verbalize the words sort-of-speak. I'll just go down and reply directly to the valuable portions. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Good Afternoon Colette, (James & Tep), > > Thanks for selecting two wonderful suttas. > > --- colette wrote: > S: You certainly have some stories, Colette:) colette: you should hear the fish story about the one that got away, right after I got the fish that fed these multitudes of people. ;)) I was having quite the day fishing when this happened. ----------------------------------- > cover page reads as follows: > > > > Duddha first Sermon > > Chamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta > > Turning the Wheel of the Dhamma > > > > and > > Anattalakkhana Sutta > > > > By > > Ledi Sayadaw > > U Pe Maung Tin > .... > S: These were the very first suttas given by the Buddha and are very, very > meaningful. They contain all the teachings -- enough for those with very > little dust in their eyes to become arahants when they heard them. colette: the sutta I focussed on was the first about "the not self" or "not my self". I believe that it takes a strong committment to reach this stage of vision since the aspirant, as it was in my case, has to observe the world directly around them and the world as an aggregate, the big picture, and be able to seperate them. For instance they say "All Politics Are Local" which I take to mean that the focus should be on the home not on the state or country or ... yet to grasp the world one has to be able to see it as a home before personalizing the home into their own. In the Navy the easiest way for the people in Boot Camp to teach us the absolute requirement that we be able to fight fires is by reminding us that since we would be floating in the middle of the ocean and allow the fire to burn then we are burning our own survival to the ground, or in that case, in the drink. Ya can't rely on somebody to come and get ya, ya gotta fight that fire. Back to the sutta. In being able to view the world in different ways while maintaining the possessiveness needed to cling to it then I believe the aspirant can see that, for instance, this body is not mine, it is not who I am, my Self, it is simply the vehicle I have at this time to attend to things as well as learn, etc. It isn't who I am, I am deeper than the flesh, we all are deeper than the flesh, it is just "skin deep" huh? I'm led to hear Mick Jagger saying "When you're old, when you're old, Nobody will know..." --------------- > > For the rest of us dusty-eyed folk, we need to hear and reflect on a lot > more, of course. Last year in India, some of us recited the > Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta in Sarnath (where it was first given by the > Buddha) and then several times later. I found it helpful to reflect more > on the eightfold path as the middle way. > > Here are the links to the ati translations. Why not let us know which > aspects you found so beneficial in them? We'd be glad to hear – (being > bold with my royal `we' and speaking for Tep and James too) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html colette: I look forward to reading the above sutta tonight. I'll have to wait for the lower sutta. ;)) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html -------------------------- thanx for the ideas Sarah. toodles, colette 47288 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Rob M and all, I have been without a computer for several days. It is good to be back and to know all is well at DSG. Rob M wrote to Sarah: ------------- > I thought that Ajahn Brahm did an excellent job of explaining attachment and reconciling this with formal meditation practice. This is a point that I have been trying (unsucessfully) to communicate with Ken H. ------------- It's very nice of you to think of me, Rob. Since you have such a high opinion of Ajahn Brahm's teaching I should be careful with what I say. I wouldn't want to be controversial. :-) ---------------- RobM quoting the article by Ajahn Brahm: > "Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. Thus jokes abound such as the one on why the houses of Buddhists have dirt in the corners – because they don't allow even their vacuum cleaner any attachments. Some misguided pseudo-Buddhists criticise those living a moral life as being attached to their precepts and thus praise immoral action as a sign of deep wisdom. Bah! ----------------------------- Attachment (lobha) is an akusala dhamma, and we shouldn't let AB or anyone tell us otherwise. Lobha should be understood, directly and indirectly, as inherently dangerous and capable of leading us away from the Path. The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. When someone sits in formal meditation, his aim is to get rid of attachment and have detachment instead. It is not enough for him to understand attachment and detachment: he wants detachment for himself. This is his form of attachment, and it is not the way taught by the Buddha. Furthermore, I should point out that DSG people who downgrade the efficacy of rite and ritual (or mere rules and precepts) are not disparaging "those living a moral life." They are pointing out the difference between real morality and ritualistic morality. ------------------------------- AB: > Others in traditional Buddhist circles create fear of deep meditation by incorrectly stating that you will only get attached to the Jhânas. -------------------------------- Does anyone at DSG state that? We are all deeply respectful of samatha-bhavana - it is an extremely high form of kusala. Mundane jhanas are subject to attachment, but that is not the objection I (and perhaps others) have expressed. I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) -------------------------------------------------------------------- AB: > It all goes too far. Perhaps the pinnacle of mischievous misinformation was said by Rajneesh who claimed "I am so detached, I am not even attached to detachment" and thus conveniently excused all his excesses. --------------------------------------- I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. --------------------- AB: > The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. ---------------------- AB seems to have deviated from the texts here. Upadana and lobha are the same paramattha dhamma. Any difference is a matter of degree. --------------------------------------- AB: > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The five mundane khandhas are the five aggregates of upadana. Therefore everything - with the exceptions of Nibbana and the Eightfold Path - is subject to attachment. And attachment is always akusala - never kusala. (It is always "un-Buddhist.") ---------------------- AB: > Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un- Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. --------------------- It is mischievous to equate the Buddha's teaching of dana, sila and bhavana with the conventional appearance of compassion, the ritualistic acceptance of rules and precepts and any form of *trying* to have right mindfulness. More than mischievous, it is a slander against the Buddha the Dhamma and the sangha. ------------------------- AB: > Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. ------------------------- That's true, but only in the ultimate sense. Conventional, ritualistic, practice is not a paramattha dhamma: it is only a concept and, therefore, it has no inherent characteristics - either kusala or akusala. The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. --------------------------------------- AB: > The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind. Nibbana is the letting go once and for all of greed, hatred and delusion, the seeds of rebirth. Parinibbana is the final letting go of body and mind (the Five Khandhas). It is wrong to suggest that any of these stages of letting go are the same as attachment. ---------------------- Let's be perfectly clear: No one on DSG has ever said that alobha is the same as lobha. ----------------------------- AB: > The path is like a ladder. One grasps the rung above and lets go of the rung below to pull oneself up. Soon, the rung just grasped is the rung one is now standing on. Now is the time to let go of that rung as one grasps an even higher rung to raise oneself further. If one never grasped anything, one would remain spiritually stupid. To those without wisdom, letting go may often appear as attachment. For example a bird on the branch of a tree at night So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path for it will lead to Nibbana. ------------------------------ Lobha is an akusala dhamma. It has never been - and it will never be - a factor for enlightenment. ------------- AB: > And don't forget to purchase the attachments for your vacuum cleaner too!" ------------- At last, this article has told us something useful! :-) Ken H 47289 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. > > ===== > > Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is > that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into > their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only > specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five > senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation > may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' > the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take > up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to > rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further > suffering, only these four are to be avoided. > >. > > So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists > who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach > without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path > for it will lead to Nibbana. +++++++++ Dear RobM, I think the Buddha did not praise upadana, even to good states: Majjhima Nikaya 22 "Bhikkhu when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states". Robertk 47290 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > As I was preapring for my class this morning on the subject of > > attachment, I ran across this short article by Ajahn Brahm. > > > > ===== > > > > Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles > is > > that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into > > their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. > > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only > > specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five > > senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that > liberation > > may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking > up' > > the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take > > up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to > > rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further > > suffering, only these four are to be avoided. > > > >. > > > > So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate > Buddhists > > who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach > > without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the > path > > for it will lead to Nibbana. > +++++++++ > Dear RobM, > I think the Buddha did not praise upadana, even to good states: > Majjhima Nikaya 22 > "Bhikkhu when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft you should > abandon even good states, how much more so bad states". > Robertk ===== I will be getting on a flight in a few hours and had planned that time to prepare a reply to Ken H's mail. Since you have only picked out one point for discussion, I will reply to you first. I haven't crossed over the steam yet, so I still need to cling to my raft. Once I have crossed over, I won't need to carry my raft with me. But for the moment, I am still attached to the Dhamma. I understand intellectually that the nature of the raft is that at some point in my journey, I will abandon it. Nevertheless, part way across the stream is not the point to abandon the raft. In the Suttas, the Buddha made many exhortations to monks and laypeople (but not to Arahants). I interpret Ajahn Brahm's statement as being of the same vein. Metta, Rob M :-) 47291 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 8:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm Evan_Stamato... Ken, Wow!!! What a strong statement. I would not want to be one who is the originator of that statement. I think it shows great attachment to views. You seem to be saying that there are 2 types of jhana. Those taught and practiced many thousands of years ago and those taught and practiced today. Jhana is jhana as far as I can understand and thousands of years doesn't change the nature of jhana. Back in the time of the Buddha, as today, there are reports of lay people who can attain jhana. Some easily, some not so easily. I don't see what is so different today. Kind Regards, Evan --------------- Ken Howard: I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) This email and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, privileged or copyright. Any retention, disclosure, distribution or copying of this email or any attachment is strictly prohibited, without the written authority of the sender. If you have received this email in error or are not the intended recipient, please contact us immediately by return email or by telephone on + 61 3 9835 5400 and delete it from your system. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states otherwise. We use virus scanning software, but advise you to scan the email and any attachments with your anti virus software prior to opening or use. We specifically exclude all liability for viruses, defects or anything similar in any email or attachment. 47292 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Open-handed Generosity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Generosity: The first mental Perfection: And what is the treasure of generosity? When a disciple of the Noble Ones whose mentality is all cleared of disgracing miserliness, living at home, is freely generous & open-handed, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to every request &, enjoying the giving of alms. Such is this treasure called generosity. AN VII 6 Just as a filled pot, which is overturned pours out all its water, leaving nothing back, even & exactly so should one give to those in need. whether low, middle or high, like the overturned pot, holding nothing back. Jataka Nidana [128-129] The Generosity of Giving, The Kindness in Speech, The Benefit of Service, The Impartiality treating all Alike, These 4 threads of sympathy upholds this world like the axle do the cart. AN II 32 Giving food, one gives & gets strength Giving clothes, one gives & gets beauty Giving light, one gives & gets vision Giving transportation, one gives & gets ease. Giving shelter one gives all, Yet one who instructs in the True Dhamma - The supreme Teaching of the Buddhas - Such one gives the quite divine ambrosia! SN I 32 These are these five rewards of generosity: One is liked and charming to people at large, One is admired & respected by wise people, one's good reputation is spread wide about, One does not neglect a householder's true duties, and with the break-up of the body - at the moment of death - one reappears in a happy destination, in the plane of the divine worlds. AN V.35 There are these two kinds of gifts: material gifts & gifts of Dhamma. The supreme gift is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: material sharing & sharing of Dhamma. The supreme sharing is that of Dhamma. There are these two kinds of help: Material help & help with the Dhamma. This is the supreme of the two: help with the Dhamma . It 98 The gift of Dhamma exceeds all other gifts. Dhammapada 354 The Bodhisatta once as king Sivi gave both his eyes to a beggar who was Sakka the king deity in disguise, who desired to test him. He remembered "While I was wishing to give, while I was giving and after this giving there was neither contrariety nor opposition in mind as it was for the purpose of awakening itself! Neither were these eyes nor the rest of myself disagreeable to me. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave the eyes. The Basket of Conduct Cariyapitaka I-8 Full story: Sivi Jataka no. 499. The Bodhisatta once as the Wise Hare gave his roasted body as alms by jumping into a fire: He remembered: "There came a beggar and asked for food. Myself I gave so that he might eat. In alms there was none equal to me. In alms I had thereby reached ultimate perfection." From then & the rest of this world-cycle the moon will display a characteristic 'hare-in-the-moon' sign. Sasa-Jataka no. 316 Giving of things, treasures, external possessions, job, position, wife, & child is the first perfection of giving. Giving the offer of one's organs, limbs, & senses is the second higher perfection of giving. Giving the sacrifice of one's life is the ultimate perfection of giving. The clarifier of sweet meaning 89 (Commentary on Buddhavamsa) Madhuratthavilasini [59] Venerable Buddhadatta: 5th century. Generosity is the first mental perfection (parami): Clinging creates internal panic and social tension. Giving creates internal elation and social harmony... What is gladly given returns more than thousandfold. PS: Please included the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! <....> 47293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 5, 2005 11:49pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 241 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Restlessness Uddhacca, translated as restlessness, agitation, excitement or confusion, is another akusala cetasika which arises with each akusala citta. The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 250) gives the following definition of uddhacca: * "… It has mental excitement as characteristic like wind-tossed water; wavering as function, like a flag waving in the wind; whirling as manifestation like scattered ashes struck by a stone; unsystematic thought owing to mental excitement as proximate cause; and it should be regarded as mental distraction over an object of excitement." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 165) gives a similar definition(1). The commentaries illustrate with similes that when there is uddhacca, there is no steadiness, there is not the stable condition, the calm, of kusala. When there is uddhacca there is forgetfulness of kusala, whereas when there is mindfulness, sati, there is watchfulness, non-forgetfulness of kusala, be it generosity, morality, the development of calm or insight. Mindfulness is watchful so that the opportunity for kusala is not wasted. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §429. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47294 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AliceInHow&WhyIAmInBuddhism(DSG)Land part 1 sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Thank you for your kind email letters. I enjoy discussing the Dhamma with you and I’m very glad to see your discussion with RobM as well. I was glad to read all your comments about ‘transferance of merits’ or sharing of merit and appreciate all your dana. I agreed with all your comments and kind deeds. It doesn’t matter whether we call ourselves Buddhist or Taoist if we have good intentions. If you have time (I know you have limited internet access), please also look at saved messages under ‘Merit – transfer/share of’ in ‘Useful Posts’ in the files section of DSG. You’ll find a good one from RobM included too. .... Let me discuss a little more about kamma and vipaka with you: --- balancing_life wrote: > At first, my brother questioned everyone in his ex-wife's family on > how she fell, and after the funeral, he went to the school to > investigate as he suspected it has something to do with her > school...and eventually the truth came out. .... S: We can say the cause of any misfortune is the way others have acted and so on, but from a Buddhist perspective, the experiencing of good and bad results through the eyes, ears, body-sense can only occur if the kamma has been performed to bring about such results. So it is by kamma that we experience harsh sounds or bodily pain or other difficulties. It’s useless to blame others and feel angry because then we not only forget the real cause of suffering, but we also just gather up more anger and anguish which leads to further difficulties. The only solution is to develop more metta and understanding at such times. Of course, the teachers and other students at the school will have also felt the greatest remorse and unhappiness as well. Forgiveness is a kind of generosity which will help all your family to live more easily as well as the others involved. .... > On the day of my niece's death anniversary, my brother was still > angry with the antics of her school mates and school teacher, which > caused her death and wanted to publish a "In Memoriam" to remind them > of my niece's death, in every Chinese and English newspapers, in a > very "critical" way, but the publishers did not want to accept it, > and he had to tone it down. .... S: I’m sure they need no reminding. As I said, I think that forgiveness and metta and understanding of vipaka are the only ways to heal the wounds for everyone. Wishing others involved will suffer less rather than more will help your brother. ..... > After my niece's death, i was a constant visitor, at the temple > there that the staff writing & receiving the Dana, told me that > someone else had also donated "in memory of" my niece's name and but > when asked the name of the donor, it was written "anonymous"...guess > it must either be from one of her school mates or her teacher. .... S: Perhaps one day you might even consider visiting them and showing your metta and dana, so that they can live more at ease. You could tell them about your interest in Buddhism and take a book perhaps. Of course, I know this is not easy at all, but I think it might be very helpful if you can share your strength and understanding of kamma and vipaka. ... > As i told you that i am still a novice, i am not able to participate > in your discussions yet, as i do not even know what "vipaka " > means...can you please explain this to me? I feel that you members > here are in the advanced stage, whereas i am still in the > kindergarten stage only...lol. .... S: Oh, we’re all in kindergarden here....or kindergarten as you and Nina say:). So vipaka is just the result of kamma. Experiencing sensations through the senses is vipaka. But responding angrily, for example, is kamma – the cause of future vipaka. How others act towards us are only ‘prompts’, never the real cause of our problems. This is what the Buddha taught us in his wisdom. “Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.” Dhp 1 > > Thanks and so sorry for boring you all with this story of my niece. > With Metta > :} > AliceStillInDepressionLand .... S: Not boring at all. I appreciate your courage and sincerity to turn to the Buddha’s teachings in order to find the strength and wisdom to understand the real truths. Depression doesn’t last, no mental state lasts.....let it go. There’s no room for depression when there’s metta and compassion or any wise considering of the Dhamma....:). Metta, Sarah ======= 47295 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is truth verifiable ever? sarahprocter... Dear Avidu, --- amp amp wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I think I havant structured my question properly in my last posting. so > let me re-post the same question again. > > My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect > even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a > kind of dream? .... S: I think that for us now, nibbana and the fruits of enlightenment are just a kind of dream that can't be directly experienced. So why not let go of the dreams and consider more about what can be directly tested and proved? I think that this is the only way that there will be more confidence in the Buddha's teachings, including those aspects which we dream about. What is life at this moment as you see it? .... > willing to be defeated.. .... S: No question of 'defeated' here:). Persevere with your questions and you'll see the benefit. Thank you for giving your name. Please tell us where you live. Were you brought up in a Buddhist country? Metta, Sarah ======= 47296 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] THE 5TH PRECEPT: No Liquor or Alcohol sarahprocter... Hi Alice, Delayed responses are no problem at all. Thank you for all your kind comments and understanding which I appreciate. Yes, every family has to endure all kinds of sufferings. Even if they are not so bad in this life, how about next life? It may be far worse. We never have any idea about what vipaka is in store for us, so we'd better learn to cope with present difficulties with good humour as a kind of training. As you suggest, people turn to all sorts of addictions to cope with depressions rather than facing the truths. You have so much to offer, Alice. >as they say, "If you want to see the RainBows, then you > will have to put up with the rain", or in our Malay proverbs, "Di > mana hujan tidak timpah", literally meaning "Where in this world, > rain has not fallen"...rain meaning sufferings. .... S: Very good. It reminds me of the 'mustard seed' story when the lady was so distressed about a death in the family, but soon found out that every family had experienced similar grief. I'm sure you're familiar with it, otherwise ask for a link. .... > > Guess in this world, all of us have our own sufferings and if i am > not suffering rite now, i would not be into so many Buddhism websites > also, likewise for Lord Buddha. .... S: Good point. As we know, in the deva realms it is extremely hard to develop wisdom because life is so blissful:). .... > Will tell you of another precept, ie, illicit sex, which is practiced > in our Syariah court as well, in another email. > > With Metta > :} > AliceInSympathyLand ... S: Now, isn't SympathyLand better than DepressionLand? Much appreciated, Metta, Sarah ===== 47297 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (RobM, Chris, Connie) --- Philip wrote: > Ph: Your interpretation which follows is interesting and helpful, > and I'd like to discuss it, but I really think A. Sujin was talking > about something a bit different. In the talk, Nina is saying that > Lodewijk is not comfortable with this "there is no Nina" kind of > teaching, that he thinks Dhamma should be presented in a > more....palatable way. (My word.) That people cannot accept that > kind of hard teaching. Then A. Sujin says that we want to go to the > right and we want to go to the left. I really think it's more of > a "have your cake and eat it" kind of thing. We want to live in the > light of conventional truths, and in the light of ultimate truths, > but - she implies- that the ultimate solution is to go toward the > ultimate truths. ... S: I understand this to mean, we want to follow steps or procedures, to concentrate on objects or to do something (go left and right), but the only way the Dhamma will ever be understood is by understanding the ultimate truths at the present moment.....visible object, sound and so on -- no Nina. .... >but it's just really another talk about concepts vs realities. ... S: Yes, that's how I see it. ... > I have heard a fair bit > recently about natural decisive support conditions (pakattu > panissaya) which A. Sujin teaches in a very broad sense as being all > dhammas, everything we've experienced in this life and past lives, > if I understood correctly. Everything. ... S: Yes - all experiences are accumulated by this condition. ... >I haven't yet heard of the > kind of relativity of these conditioning factors that Rob M mentions > in his book - things that have happened recently, with intensity, > with frequency having more conditioning power than other things. > This makes sense to me. A sutta read this morning with clarity > should have more conditioning power, now, I would think, than a > sutta read 3 years ago when sprawling slightly drunk on the beach. ... S: No expectations....I wouldn't like to speculate on this, but would be glad to see any references RobM has. Conditions are so very complex. .... > > Of course, the conditionng power of suttas we have read is just one > factor out of so many that we cannot begin to fathom. The Buddha > worked out conditions in detail - we would be foolish to hope to do > so. ... S: Yes, well said. .... > > A bit of a ramble there, Sarah, as usual. Thanks again for you > support and for the latest disk full of talks, which I received > yesterday. Yum yum. ... S: I always enjoy your rambles. Good listening and look forward to any snippets! (Connie & Chris - likewise. (in the post -- why not share some snippets or a sutta with us??) Metta, Sarah p.s #47189 prox cause of recklessness is lack of respect for someone else. Isn't it true that when we're angry (to give an obvious example), that not only do we not see the danger, but there's no consideration for others at such times? It's truly reckless. Or to put it the other way round, the lack of respect for others conditions such recklessness which doesn't see the danger. ====== 47298 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:24am Subject: Ritualistic Observatory Firm-Holding Knot htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 9 different stocks of unwholesome dhamma (akusala sangaha). They are 1. aasava dhamma (canker or intoxicant) 2. ogha dhamma (flood) 3. yoga dhamma (yoke or connection or bond) 4. gantha dhamma (ties or knots or fetters or bonds) 5. upaadaana dhamma (clinging, grasping, holding, gripping) 6. nivarana dhamma (hindrances, refusal,preventing, obstruction) 7. samyojana dhamma (fetters, bonds) 8. anusaya dhamma (dormant predisposition, tendency, latency) 9. kilesa dhamma (defilements, stain, soil, impurity) There are 4 gantha dhamma. They are 1. abhijjhaa kaayagantha 2. byaapaada kaayagantha 3. silabbataparaamaasa kaayagantha 4. idamsaccaabhinivesa kaayagantha Silabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha Sila means 'stone' and silabbata or silavata means 'ceremonial observance'. Paraamasati means 'to touch' 'to deal with' 'to hold on' 'to be attached to'. Paraamaasa means 'touching' 'seizing' 'taking hold of'. So siilabbata-paraamaasa means 'seizing ceremonial observance' or 'holding ceremonial observance' 'handling ceremonial observance'. This means that 'ceremonial observances like killing animals and offer them to divine beings or observing the practice that are those of dogs, cows, etc or observing non-sense rituals like standing on one foot for days, not eating food for days as a practice to purify mind. Still there are many observances that are non-sense when these are connected with wrong view. Clasping hands and worshiping to the sky, to the earth, to the sun, to 6 directions or 10 directions, to trees, to rivers, to mountains, to tombs, and many others. If there is wrong view in mind while observing such things like worshiping corpse, remnants or corpse, heap of earthy ground, tomb are all 'siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' or 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knot'. This may also include when one is observing non-sense ritualistic behavioural activities like maintaining of strange postures as a practice in order to purify mind or in order to be liberated. There have been many many practices since human beings are on this earth. Some went through trials and errors and finally they set up a defined practice what they thought was a good thing to do as a spiritual cleansing and then they founded up their individual schools, teaching those things that they believed were all true. From their schools they propagate all their teachings to many different beings wherever they meet in whatever situations. The chief dhamma here is 'ditthi' or 'wrong-view'. As long as 'ditthi' is there and that ditthi is associated with lobha producing ditthi-gata-sampayutta-lobha-muula-cittas or greedy consciousness accompanied by wrong view there cannot be any panna or wisdom. Sometimes this ditthi is very subtle that it may not be detectable by the immatured. Examples are sitting in a quiet place, sitting on folded crossed legs, sitting on erect body, straightening the back, sitting under a tree, or any specific postures. When these are imitated by someone without knowledge of what is right and what is wrong and without knowledge of what is ditthi or wrong view they may well believe that they are following the right practice and they feel ease. But as long as there is ditthi, panna or wisdom cannot arise. Ditthi or wrong view may come to beings in many different forms. One of these forms is 'silabbata-paraamaasa' or 'silavata-paraamaasa' kaayagantha. As it is a gantha dhamma this ritualistic observatory firm-holding body-knots or 'silavata-paraamaasa kaayagantha' tie beings and they make knots or they bind beings not to be liberated. These knots are like knotted thread in a net of trap. Once beings are in the trap-net and they are bounded or tied by gantha dhamma or siilabbata-paraamaasa they cannot escape from unhappy destination. These knots or bonds are hard to break up and cut up. But when there is right view and when there arises sotapatti magga naana or 'stream- entering path-knowledge then all these hard to cut up knots of siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha are destroyed and beings in question are liberated from binding of siilabbata-paraamaasa kaayagantha. As soon as they are liberated from the knot of 'ritualistic observatory firm-holding' or siilabbata-paraamaasa they are freed from rebirth in the lower 4 realms or rebirth in 4 woeful planes of existence. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47299 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: >The discipline I am talking about is > basically the lower part of the 'gradual training.' That is, > engaging onesself in a spiritual discipline, according to the > doctrine. For example (one among many), DN2, Samannaphala Sutta, we > read about the moralities the practitioner undertakes under the > heading: > > (The Lesser Section on Virtue) .... > We read that one puts down sword and stick, not harming any living > being, being compassionate, one abandons stealing, taking only what > is given, one abandons all types of wrong speech and speaks > meaningful, helpful, kind words. All of this adds up to a discipline > that one can follow in their life. ... S: I think it depends what you mean by ‘lower part of the ‘gradual training’’. Only a sotapanna will follow the precepts without fail having perfected adhi-sila or morality as a result of having developed a lot of wisdom and eradicated any idea of self. .... >It is something I have deviated > some from, due to conditions from within and without, -however-, when > one reads the sutta on advice to laypeople, Sigolavada Sutta, DN20, > how the four quarters are covered in a particular discipline for the > laymen who wants to live a life at peace with his coworkers, friends, > and family, and be 'good,' even resulting in a heavenly rebirth. ... S: We can read, reflect and understand more and more the value of all kinds of wholesome states. But these are anatta. We have no idea what the conditions will be in the future in spite of all our good resolutions. That’s why it has to be the path of detachment, not of expectations or clinging to having good states arising. ... >We > can follow this code of discipline to create peace with our family > and so on, even if we do not want the heavenly rebirth. For example, > as has been suggested, I have read some of the Talmud as a first step > in carrying out the family tradition (Judaism), and this new, > freshness, especially the parts on virtue, really let me see how I > could be disciplined from all angles. It's a way of life. ... S: I’m glad to read this and I know Nina, Howard and others will be too. We can begin to see ‘Dhamma’ everywhere in whatever we read, whatever we talk about or whatever work we’re doing. ... <...> > To help you understand, for example, during the Northeast blackout a > few years back, my father was coming into the hallway and speaking > about the previous blackout some decades ago, and it was just a piece > of idle chatter. I knew that idle chatter just leads to suffering, > so I let it be and did not engage him. ..... S: An opportunity for metta and understanding too, whether one ‘engages’ or not. ... >With the laypersons code of > discipline, I might try to rectify the relationship further by > carrying out the family tradition, helping him out when he neds help, > basically creating a more proper father-son relationship, having him > think of me less as a 'friend,' which he has called me in the past. ... S: I think it’s rather nice that he considers you as a ‘friend’. I appreciate that my mother calls me with any problems like she would a close friend. .... > Serious problems in practising Buddhism began after my honeymoon > ended. If I follow the teachings correctly, as I have in the past, > (will I be able in the future?) problems can fade away. .... S: It always comes down to these expectations or clingings to the practice now – wishing they’d be like they were in the past or wondering how they will be in the future. Al, the practice is understanding and letting go of the attachment to what is currently being experienced now – whether that be a citta, cetasika or rupa appearing. ... >I felt > established in the discipline even as recently as two nights ago, > walking home to my house with a friend, but when I got home I did not > know how what was proper to do on the computer.. ... S: The reason for the dilemma is because you’re think of a story about a scenario or situation, rather than being aware of the dhammas regardless of whether you turn on the computer or not. Even thinking about ‘what is proper’ is just conditioned thinking. .... >the part about > entering jhanas or bringing mindfulness to the fore, would be very > difficult for me as I've not been able to meditate well since a time > in the not so distant past. But the rest was there. I'm telling > you, discipline is good! ... S: No self who can bring anything to the fore. ... > OK. I'm still interesting in knowing cetasikas no matter what my > lifestyle. If I decide seeking a greater happiness is better for me > than trying to have some 'fun' with my friends, I would still like to > know them, and it should make no difference. ... S: There are always cetasikas arising – just as real when you’re having fun with your friends. No need to be afraid of ordinary, daily lobha. It can be understood too – it has to be. Trying to avoid it is not the solution. .... > Well, I guess the first question I should ask is, how are we only > aware of one reality at a time, as they arise, if all realities are > constantly arising and falling? .... S: Excellent Qu. Take visible object. Theoretically I can say that in a sense door process, rupa lasts as long as 17 cittas, so that after seeing consciousness has fallen away, there are a couple of other cittas arising and then 7 javana cittas arise and experience the same object. If they arise with awareness, then visible object is the object of such awareness. In the subsequent mind door process, the characteristic of visible object can also be experienced by javana cittas with awareness. Practically, when there is awareness of visible object, there’s no idea about the speed of cittas or how long a rupa lasts. Simply, awareness performs its function of being aware and falls away. By developing understanding, the characteristic of awareness can be known without needing to think about how many processes are involved. ..... >Is it simply because citta can only > know one object at a time, or is it because we have to wait for some > object of consciousness to become 'prominent?' And if so, how/why > does this occur? ... S: I always like your qus a lot. Yes, citta (and accompanying cetasikas) can only ever experience one object at a time. It depends on many conditions which object will be experienced at any time. No one can control whether visible object, sound or heat will be experienced next. This is the point of the ayatanas or meeting-point of various sense fields – only when all the conditions are in place will there be the experience of a particular object – a very fine balancing act. For example, when we are sleeping, visible objects have no chance to impact on eye-sense, so no experiencing of them can take place. Please ask anything else..... (I’ll be going away in a couple of weeks for a month). Metta, Sarah ======== 47300 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. sarahprocter... Hi Al (*those in Oz), --- Andrew Levin wrote: > What about sila, dana, and bhavana, and the ten wholesome actions? > Can't we look to practise these to create more wholesomeness for our > welfare and happiness, at the same time as we try to understand > akusala? ... S: Is there really any 'we' to practise or create anything? Metta, Sarah p.s I'm sorry, it won't be NY this year ...I'd love it to be next....let's see (lots depends on Jon's retirement work plans). I'll try to coordinate with Nina. ========= *All in Oz - our weekend of 13th/14th Aug is confirmed in Qld- KenH & AndrewT are kindly coordinating.....Herman, we'll coord off-list for Syd - Botanic gardens? - if that works better for you (beg. Aug). If anyone wants our dates in Bangkok at the beg and end of the trip, also let me know. 47301 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > I haven't crossed over the steam yet, so I still need to cling to my > raft. Once I have crossed over, I won't need to carry my raft with > me. But for the moment, I am still attached to the Dhamma. > > I understand intellectually that the nature of the raft is that at > some point in my journey, I will abandon it. Nevertheless, part way > across the stream is not the point to abandon the raft. > > In the Suttas, the Buddha made many exhortations to monks and > laypeople (but not to Arahants). I interpret Ajahn Brahm's statement > as being of the same vein. > ++++++++ Dear RobM, You will not get to the end of the path - or anywhere near it- by clinging to Dhamma. Your last sentence about the Buddha exhorting monks and laypeople - are you saying he was exhorting them to have upadana, grasping, to Dhamma? Please show me the passages. How do you recomcile the venerables statements about the great merit of Upadana with what you have studied in Abhidhamma about upadana being a akusala dhamma - namely lobha? The venerable writes: "The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un-Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind."""endquote venerable He glosses silabbataparamasa as rites and rituals. However, rites and rituals include kusala as well as akusala - if we grasp at kusala wrongly we are indulging in silabbataparamsa . And if we think it is good to grasp kusala then that is surely wrong view. Silabataparamsa is actually an aspect of wrong view and cannot exist if anatta, not self, is deeply insighted. The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma [good or bad]... Thus silabataparamasa is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" endquote. Note that the fine material and immataterial -refers to genuine jhana development. Thus silabataparamasa can lead to both good and bad states, it can lead even to the highest pleasant feelings experienced in jhana but it cannot lead out of samsara. All ways of kusala (wholesome) can support the development of insight, but they won't if they are clung to or mistaken as the path. I have met many religious people, Buddhist and non-Buddhist who are trapped in an austere world of clinging to ritual practice. But the way of the Buddha is one of understanding - always with detachment. Robertk 47302 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:54am Subject: Victor news sarahprocter... Dear Friends-of-Victor, We received a note from Victor to say he’s canceling his email account when he shortly ordains. He can be contacted at: Metta Forest Monastery PO Box 1409 Valley Center, CA 92082 He also wrote, V: >Hi Jon and Sarah, Thank you for the message and good wishes. To the group I would say: "Thank you for your posts and discussion. Thank you, Jon and Sarah, for providing this forum." As for the post ordination name, if one's name is John Smith, then he can be addressed as Tan John in daily life after ordination, 'Tan' being a title for monk. Thank you again. Best wishes, Victor ========= --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear Victor > > Thanks for letting us know the reason for your > proposed unsubscription > from DSG. We will be sorry to lose you, but we of > course understand your > reasons. > > We would like to make a short announcement on the > list. Please consider > sending a few words that we can pass on to the other > members. > > Thanks for including your post-ordination address. > Would you also let us > know the name by which you will be known after > ordination. > > We rejoice in your decision to ordain, and wish you > all the fruits of the > life of a samana. > > Jon and Sarah 47303 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Rob, Sarah, and all) - In a message dated 7/5/05 10:22:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Rob M and all, I have been without a computer for several days. It is good to be back and to know all is well at DSG. Rob M wrote to Sarah: ------------- > I thought that Ajahn Brahm did an excellent job of explaining attachment and reconciling this with formal meditation practice. This is a point that I have been trying (unsucessfully) to communicate with Ken H. ------------- It's very nice of you to think of me, Rob. Since you have such a high opinion of Ajahn Brahm's teaching I should be careful with what I say. I wouldn't want to be controversial. :-) ---------------- RobM quoting the article by Ajahn Brahm: > "Probably the most misunderstood term in Western Buddhist circles is that usually translated as 'attachment'. Too many have got it into their head that they shouldn't be attached to anything. Thus jokes abound such as the one on why the houses of Buddhists have dirt in the corners – because they don't allow even their vacuum cleaner any attachments. Some misguided pseudo-Buddhists criticise those living a moral life as being attached to their precepts and thus praise immoral action as a sign of deep wisdom. Bah! ----------------------------- Attachment (lobha) is an akusala dhamma, and we shouldn't let AB or anyone tell us otherwise. Lobha should be understood, directly and indirectly, as inherently dangerous and capable of leading us away from the Path. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. It is undesirable and best removed if possible. ---------------------------------------------- The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the weakening of defilements. ---------------------------------------------- When someone sits in formal meditation, his aim is to get rid of attachment and have detachment instead. It is not enough for him to understand attachment and detachment: he wants detachment for himself. This is his form of attachment, and it is not the way taught by the Buddha. -------------------------------------------- Howard: A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a drop, there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at first, the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. -------------------------------------------- Furthermore, I should point out that DSG people who downgrade the efficacy of rite and ritual (or mere rules and precepts) are not disparaging "those living a moral life." They are pointing out the difference between real morality and ritualistic morality. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. But in the extreme case of taking meditation per se, independent of how it is approached, as rite and ritual one, and dismissing it, one is being led by prejudice instead of by the Dhamma. So, care is needed in what are considered to be rites and rituals. --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- AB: > Others in traditional Buddhist circles create fear of deep meditation by incorrectly stating that you will only get attached to the Jhânas. -------------------------------- Does anyone at DSG state that? We are all deeply respectful of samatha-bhavana - it is an extremely high form of kusala. Mundane jhanas are subject to attachment, but that is not the objection I (and perhaps others) have expressed. I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It certainly isn't common, but it is most certainly within sight for many. But you are quite right in saying that it requires more than just a little right effort. Except for those who already have a great propensity for it, due, I suppose, to considerable past cultivation, what is required is significant and very extensive and consistent practice over a long period of time. This is an effort that is typically more than what the average householder can (or will) put forward. But if one is willing, and circumstances allow for it, the needed practice can bear good fruit. ------------------------------------------------ IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: How would you know, Ken? What is it that you can base your humble opinion on? ;-) ------------------------------------------------ There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: How can you possibly know that, Ken? Actually, I believe there are such people. So, there ya go - two opposite beliefs. They're just beliefs, Ken. ----------------------------------------------- Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) -------------------------------------------------------------------- AB: > It all goes too far. Perhaps the pinnacle of mischievous misinformation was said by Rajneesh who claimed "I am so detached, I am not even attached to detachment" and thus conveniently excused all his excesses. --------------------------------------- I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? Guess what? I don't believe that! I believe that we all want detachment. If we did not we would either be fully ignorant or well on our way to achieving detachment. But I suspect that all of us here are more midling sorts. ------------------------------------------- --------------------- AB: > The Pali word in question is UPADANA, literally meaning 'a taking up'. It is commonly used indicating a 'fuel', which sustains a process, such as the oil in a lamp being the fuel/upadana for the flame. It is related to craving (TANHA). For example, craving is reaching out for the delicious cup of coffee, Upadana is picking it up. Even though you think that you can easily put the cup of coffee down again, though your hand is not superglued to the cup, it is still Upadana. You have picked it up. You have grasped. ---------------------- AB seems to have deviated from the texts here. Upadana and lobha are the same paramattha dhamma. Any difference is a matter of degree. --------------------------------------- AB: > Fortunately not all Upadana is un-Buddhist. The Lord Buddha only specified four groups of Upadana: 'taking up' the five senses, 'taking up' wrong views, 'taking up' the idea that liberation may be attained simply through rites and initiations, and 'taking up' the view of a self. There are many other things that one may 'take up' or grasp, but the point is that only these four groups lead to rebirth, only these four are fuel for future existence and further suffering, only these four are to be avoided. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The five mundane khandhas are the five aggregates of upadana. Therefore everything - with the exceptions of Nibbana and the Eightfold Path - is subject to attachment. And attachment is always akusala - never kusala. (It is always "un-Buddhist.") ---------------------- AB: > Thus taking up the practice of compassion, taking up the practice of the Five Precepts or the greater precepts of a monk or nun, and taking up the practice of meditation – these are not un- Buddhist and it is mischievous to discourage them by calling them 'attachments'. --------------------- It is mischievous to equate the Buddha's teaching of dana, sila and bhavana with the conventional appearance of compassion, the ritualistic acceptance of rules and precepts and any form of *trying* to have right mindfulness. More than mischievous, it is a slander against the Buddha the Dhamma and the sangha. --------------------------------------------- Howard: C'mon, Ken. Don't go overboard. He isn't slandering anyone, let alone the Buddha! Some might think it is mischievous to counsel against making right effort. ---------------------------------------------- ------------------------- AB: > Keeping the Five Precepts is, in fact, a letting go of coarse desires like lust, greed and violence. Practising compassion is a letting go of self-centredness and practising meditation is letting go of past, future, thinking and much else. ------------------------- That's true, but only in the ultimate sense. Conventional, ritualistic, practice is not a paramattha dhamma: it is only a concept and, therefore, it has no inherent characteristics - either kusala or akusala. -------------------------------------- Howard: Attachment to catch-terms like 'paramattha dhamma', when used as an excuse to avoid proper conventional actions is a particularly unwholesome matter that I think of as a kind of Buddhist antinomianism. ------------------------------------- The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be a serious instance of hopelessness and wrong view that ignores 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. (I don't know what you mean by "at will", but without cetana, there is no Dhamma practice.) -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- AB: > The achievement of Jhâna is no more than the letting go of the world of the five senses to gain access to the mind. Nibbana is the letting go once and for all of greed, hatred and delusion, the seeds of rebirth. Parinibbana is the final letting go of body and mind (the Five Khandhas). It is wrong to suggest that any of these stages of letting go are the same as attachment. ---------------------- Let's be perfectly clear: No one on DSG has ever said that alobha is the same as lobha. ----------------------------- AB: > The path is like a ladder. One grasps the rung above and lets go of the rung below to pull oneself up. Soon, the rung just grasped is the rung one is now standing on. Now is the time to let go of that rung as one grasps an even higher rung to raise oneself further. If one never grasped anything, one would remain spiritually stupid. To those without wisdom, letting go may often appear as attachment. For example a bird on the branch of a tree at night So don't be put off by well-meaning but misinformed L-plate Buddhists who have completely misunderstood Upadana and attachment. Attach without fear to your precepts, your meditation object and to the path for it will lead to Nibbana. ------------------------------ Lobha is an akusala dhamma. It has never been - and it will never be - a factor for enlightenment. ------------- AB: > And don't forget to purchase the attachments for your vacuum cleaner too!" ------------- At last, this article has told us something useful! :-) Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47304 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Sarah and all Thanks for the feedback. > S: I understand this to mean, we want to follow steps or procedures, to > concentrate on objects or to do something (go left and right), but the > only way the Dhamma will ever be understood is by understanding the > ultimate truths at the present moment.....visible object, sound and so on > -- no Nina. Ph: O.K. I see. This ties in with a snippet from a talk that I wanted to jot down while I have it. It's from the older talks, in Sri Lanka or India, from the CD you were kind enough to send me. A man asks I'd never heard before asks "is it possible to have understanding devoid of self?" and Jon answered, and A. Sujin answered, and then Sukin came in and I especially liked what he had to say: "I would say that understanding can happen only devoid of self...and whenever there's self, there cannot be understanding.. (snip) for example, this moment there can be awareness or there cannot...but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a projection....we want to have awareness..it is either at this moment or it is not...and at this moment it is not something I want to understand at this moment...that is already running away from the moment...I want to understand visible object and try to understand visible object...therefore that is not understanding the fallen away visible object." This is what the "crossing the flood" sutta is all about. It doesn't come naturally to people in the modern world to wait for understanding to arise due to conditions...we try to force things. Our intentions are good about this, of course, but it is all about attachment, desire for results, often, as I said the other day, rooted in a subtle form of mortal fear - we are going to die and we must have something to show for this life of ours! (This is just my opinion based on my own experience.) So being patient and not pressing ahead goes against the way of the world... I want to have a nice ramble on that Ajahn B passage Rob M posted, but not tonight. Perhaps on Saturday. > > I have heard a fair bit > > recently about natural decisive support conditions (pakattu > > panissaya) which A. Sujin teaches in a very broad sense as being all > > dhammas, everything we've experienced in this life and past lives, > > if I understood correctly. Everything. > ... > S: Yes - all experiences are accumulated by this condition. Ph: The "decisive" in the natural decisive support condition sounds to me as though it is talking about conditions that stand out in some way, thus the folowing: > ... > >I haven't yet heard of the > > kind of relativity of these conditioning factors that Rob M mentions > > in his book - things that have happened recently, with intensity, > > with frequency having more conditioning power than other things. > > This makes sense to me. A sutta read this morning with clarity > > should have more conditioning power, now, I would think, than a > > sutta read 3 years ago when sprawling slightly drunk on the beach. > ... > S: No expectations....I wouldn't like to speculate on this, but would be > glad to see any references RobM has. Conditions are so very complex. Ph: Yes, and I'm in no hurry whatsoever to try to figure them out. But when I have a chance to meet Rob M, someday on one of his business trips to Japan, I look forward to asking him about this topic. Metta, Phil 47305 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: Victor news buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends-of-Victor, > > We received a note from Victor to say he's canceling his email account > when he shortly ordains. He can be contacted at: > > Metta Forest Monastery > PO Box 1409 > Valley Center, CA 92082 Why would Victor be cancelling his e-mail account just because he is ordaining, but he can still receive physical letters? Monks at my Buddhist temple in Arizona, Wat Promkunaram, are allowed to have e-mail accounts, and I know of monks at BPS who have e-mail accounts. E-mail isn't against the Vinaya. This smacks of a type of cult-like control which makes me uncomfortable- similiar to what I encountered at Wat Pah Nanachat. Tell Victor to be very careful. Metta, James 47306 From: "frank" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 10:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm dhamma_service Hi Ken, Ken wrote: Does anyone at DSG state that? We are all deeply respectful of samatha-bhavana - it is an extremely high form of kusala. Mundane jhanas are subject to attachment, but that is not the objection I (and perhaps others) have expressed. I have objected to the way modern meditation teachers downgrade the meaning of jhana. Jhana is an extremely rare and difficult accomplishment - obtainable only by exceptionally wise people who have devoted their lives entirely to it - but it is now portrayed as something *anyone* can accomplish and with just a *little* right effort. IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. There are people today who have the ability to practise jhana or vipassana, but there is no one who has the ability to practise both. Therefore, all wise people of the current era are developing vipassana on its own. (IMHO) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Um, I'm almost speechless. Sometimes Buddhists write things that are so astounding I really don't know what to say. By the way, trying to protect that last paragraph by surrounding it with (IMHO) is a cute maneuver, but it won't stop the reader from wondering about YOU, and they might come to one of these conclusions: 1) Only someone who is a master of both vipassana and jhana, with the attainment of the divine eye would be able to survey this world with its maras, devas, humans, and would have the stones to publicly proclaim that no one else is alive at the moment who is a master of jhana and vipassana. Therefore, Ken must be enlightened. 2) If Ken is not enlightened, and is not offering any rational reason to support his astounding view, why is he sharing what amounts to just pure speculation and belief, probably knowing that other list members would read it and be suitably astounded? What is Ken bringing to the table here? What value is being added to the discussion? It's pretty obvious to me that A.Brahm's intention is to get people to wake up to the fact that jhanas are important, they are not as unattainable as we imagine, and worrying about being attached to virtue and jhana is a premature worry and a very lame excuse to not fully practice the Buddha's path. He's not trying to promote a special type of lobha that eludes akusala. That's really not the point. Trying to make it into an argument about that in order to discredit everything else A.brahm is saying is a very very sad thing to do and you miss the central point. Those of you on the list who view jhana as extremely difficult, how do you know? How many years of schooling and training did it take you to become competent to practice your chosen profession? How much time did you actually commit to attain proficiency in jhana? If someone were to go into a 1 year, or even a 3 month solitary retreat, emerged totally defeated and demoralized, I might understand how one could come to the conclusion that jhana is very difficult or impossible. But who here has made that effort? Exactly what personal experience is it that qualifies you to assert that jhana is nearly impossible to attain? If we spend as much time developing jhana as we do engaging in long dialogues on email lists, I would not be surprised if people here made significant progress on samatha bhavana. Let's review the importance of right concentration. Here's how often it comes up in the 37 factors in the 7 sets to attaining enlightenment: 1)4 frames of reference: satipatthana: in mindfulness of body, mindfulness of breathing anapanasati, brought to culmination leads to jhanic absorption, i.e. right concentration. 2) 4 right exertions/right effort: under the category of "develop wholesome qualities", the Buddha usually uses the 7 factors of enlightenment as the thing that is to be developed. And "right concentration is #6 on the 7 factors of enlightenment. 3) 4 bases of power (iddhipada). All four are "developing the base of power endowed with concentration". 4) 5 faculties: #4 - the faculty of concentration , samadhiindrya 5) 5 strengths (bala): #4 - strength of concentration, samadhibala 6) 7 factors of enlightenment: #6, concentration as a factor of awakening (Samadhi-sambojjhanga) 7) noble 8fold path: factor #8, right concentration, sammma Samadhi. See a pattern here? Right concentration is explicitly stated in 5 out of the 7 baskets, and strongly implied in the remaining 2. That conclusively demonstrates the importance of DEVELOPING right concentration. Note the emphasis on the active form of "developing", rather than taking a defeatist attitude that it's 2500 years since the Buddha died and somehow right concentration has become harder to develop today. The Buddha spent something like 7 years practicing extreme austerities almost to the point of death before reaching a conclusion that those practices were not the way to liberation. That's the kind of commitment and earnest desire he had to find a solution to the cycle of samsara. What kind of commitment and earnest practice have WE done to earn the right to say that jhana is nearly unattainable? Can we honestly consider ourselves dedicated followers of the Buddha if we aren't making a genuine effort to develop all 37 factors in the 7 sets to awakening? -fk 47307 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) christine_fo... Hello Frank, all, A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? I know, at work, when I am told to "develop a submission" "develop an outline" - it means I am being told to follow a course of action which will have a predictable outcome. And it does. I am aware that the 'No formal meditation' group view regular times and postures for meditation as indicating self view (a self who can undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment) ... But, I wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'? metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "frank" wrote: <<>>> > Let's review the importance of right concentration. Here's how often it > comes up in the 37 factors in the 7 sets to attaining enlightenment: > > 1)4 frames of reference: satipatthana: in mindfulness of body, mindfulness > of breathing anapanasati, brought to culmination leads to jhanic absorption, > i.e. right concentration. > 2) 4 right exertions/right effort: under the category of "develop wholesome > qualities", the Buddha usually uses the 7 factors of enlightenment as the > thing that is to be developed. And "right concentration is #6 on the 7 > factors of enlightenment. > 3) 4 bases of power (iddhipada). All four are "developing the base of power > endowed with concentration". > 4) 5 faculties: #4 - the faculty of concentration , samadhiindrya > 5) 5 strengths (bala): #4 - strength of concentration, samadhibala > 6) 7 factors of enlightenment: #6, concentration as a factor of awakening > (Samadhi-sambojjhanga) > 7) noble 8fold path: factor #8, right concentration, sammma Samadhi. > > See a pattern here? Right concentration is explicitly stated in 5 out of the > 7 baskets, and strongly implied in the remaining 2. That conclusively > demonstrates the importance of DEVELOPING right concentration. Note the > emphasis on the active form of "developing", rather than taking a defeatist > attitude that it's 2500 years since the Buddha died and somehow right > concentration has become harder to develop today. The Buddha spent something > like 7 years practicing extreme austerities almost to the point of death > before reaching a conclusion that those practices were not the way to > liberation. That's the kind of commitment and earnest desire he had to find > a solution to the cycle of samsara. <<>> > -fk 47308 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 1:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma foamflowers Greetings Jon (hello DSGers), I've been moving this last two weeks and work has been very heavy. So sorry for not telling everyone what's happening. I don't want to develop a bond with you-all and just leave with out telling everyone. I'm not leaving by-the-way, I've been very busy moving into our new home. Both of us have had to work while moving all our stuff to our new home. Plus no internet access yet it will be another week before I am online at home. My Boss is away and I'm running the office on my own so I actually have to work (hahaha)! Jon I have many, many reference books,some very old and hard to find because they are out of print,in regards to upakaraka dhamma and also what is and is not dhamma or Dhamma. When we unpacked I looked them up! This would be very helpful in regards to my intellectual development. I think exploring this topic with you and others on the DSG board would give me many different views that I would not be able to see on my own. I also would like to keep up the dialoge on what emptiness is or means in the Nikayas and in Mahayana text. I have several scholarly works in regards to this topic that I have been reading of late. Unfortunetly there has been no time to share with the DSG board in relation to personal study and understanding. I should be up and running,that is, being able to post in another 7 work days. I have over 90 e-mails in my account right now and I am leaving Sarahs, Nina's and Teps to last...wow guys and girls where do you find the energy to write so much? (said with loving kindness and a great deal of affection --- not affliction!) Thank you Jon for your input and I will repost, I have it on my task list. With Metta, Lisa In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa > > Many thanks for tracking down these references to 'upakaraka >dhamma'.They both contain useful material. Unfortunately, neither author (Ven Narada, Ledi Sayadaw) gives the source for their reference to the term 'upakaraka', but no doubt an earlier >referencewill turn >up in due course. > > As to what is and what is not a 'dhamma', this is a big topic and >an important one, in fact in a sense you could say it's pretty much >all we talk about here. 47309 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Frank, and all) - In a message dated 7/6/05 4:29:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello Frank, all, A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? I know, at work, when I am told to "develop a submission" "develop an outline" - it means I am being told to follow a course of action which will have a predictable outcome. And it does. I am aware that the 'No formal meditation' group view regular times and postures for meditation as indicating self view (a self who can undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment) ... But, I wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'? metta, Chris ======================== You betcha! ;-)) And this is so, because we all have sense-of-self and self-view, except for those ariyans here who are very adeptly keeping themselves under wraps! ;-)) I personally do not literally think there is "a self who can undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment," but I do think that cultivation is literally doable, prompted by cetana, and I certainly do think, figuratively, in conventional terms, that there people who can do this, and that these people include all of us right here! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47310 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 241 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (o) ksheri3 Whatzup Sarah, I'm busy chipping away on Nina's book as we speak. I find it very interesting how she phrases some things and then just as interesting that it's for the most part, nothing more than a re-phrased Abihammattha-Sangaha, but I've yet to get past the introduction, which I read tonight. One thing that struck me about her was found on: http://www.zolag.co.uk/cetfinal.txt "The mind cannot be purified if we do not thoroughtly investigate it." Now she's talkin'! In my youth, about 6th grade, my parents got me two albums for x-mas, christmas, which were Tubular Bells and Mind Games. That was a very good yr. ;)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] > > Restlessness > > Uddhacca, translated as restlessness, agitation, excitement or > confusion, is another akusala cetasika which arises with each > akusala citta. The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 250) gives > the following definition of uddhacca: > * > "… It has mental excitement as characteristic like wind-tossed water; > wavering as function, like a flag waving in the wind; whirling as > manifestation like scattered ashes struck by a stone; unsystematic > thought owing to mental excitement as proximate cause; and it should > be regarded as mental distraction over an object of excitement." > * > The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 165) gives a similar definition(1). The > commentaries illustrate with similes that when there is uddhacca, > there is no steadiness, there is not the stable condition, the calm, > of kusala. colette: ah, just like me and my nature to jump in in the middle of a definition. In one site I mentioned reading a pc. from a Master something or other and the moderator replied that if the good master had encountered me he would be rolling in his emptiness. :o LOL The above definintion from Visuddhimagga falls into the same trap every faith, psychology, philosophy, etc. falls into: they arbitrarily dictate what good is and is not, what bad is and what it is not, yet they fail to mention that the conditions they define are conditional on the time and place and environment, and ... These dictates of good and bad are subject to change, CHAOS, and not subject to an absolute static condition. You and your body change every day, every second, ect, you have a thought one minute but you cannot get that same thought back at some other time as of yet unknown, since the conditions that manifested the thought have changed. The calm above stated in your pc. Sarah is in reference to the individual. It is not a calm which exist out there in the logos and/or cosmos as a tourist atraction which the organized criminal group called the family unit, see Las Vegas and the current condition of state governments relying on the revenue generated from organized gambling as the means to satiate their gluttony of avarice. This calm is out there but it is conditional on the fact that the individual and the calm must come into contact with each other, there must be a tangent somewhere. If there is no tangent then you or is it that they would be suggesting that the calm they have was generated outside their organism by an unseen force and bestowed upon them, see creationism, or that they have the assembly line production process that is 100% verifiable and copyrighted that leads to this calm and therefore should be considered as the arbituers of those people that do not have the process, see gang behavior also known as group behavior, mob behavior, etc. the local organized religious establishment knows of this so you may inquire with your religious leaders as to the initiation into a gang or mob or congregation (Southern Baptist Convention), et al. -------------------- When there is uddhacca there is forgetfulness of kusala, > whereas when there is mindfulness, sati, there is watchfulness, > non-forgetfulness of kusala, be it generosity, morality, the > development of calm or insight. colette: this reminds me of the competition faced on the weekend nights around the television where Bruno Samartino, for example, would be in competition for a daytime soap opera job but until then he must settle for wrestling on saturday nights. The function of the mind: it either remembers or it forgets. The ultimate competition wouldn't you agree? As for what is kusala and akusala well then whatever floats your boat baby. ;)) toodles, colette > > Mindfulness is watchful so that the opportunity for kusala is not wasted. > *** > 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §429. > ***** > [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 47311 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] A sutta here, a sutta there... ksheri3 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html "Bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be cultivated by one gone forth from the house-life. What are the two? There is devotion to indulgence of pleasure in the objects of sensual desire, which is inferior, low, vulgar, ignoble, and leads to no good; and there is devotion to self-torment, which is painful, ignoble and leads to no good. " colette: without question this is so TRUE since I've got many an experience to back this up. Basically though I would use my parents existance and their growth from the proletariate to the upper middle- class. The applicable characteristics of their developement would be how their goals changed, their wealth changed, their entire environment changed and they couldn't understand why it was changing on them. Fudge! look at the time. Only a min. or two. gotta log off and get my 2nd hr. later. toodles, colette "The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 47312 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 2:07pm Subject: An odd sort I am at times huh? ksheri3 Nina, Now I'm into it, it's flowing nicely. The Cetasikas paper you have on the vipisanna site, although I can only obtain 10 pages daily so we can't think that this will be an overnight sensation, see Frank Zappa. <....> What is a defilement? Is it not conditioned response or a cognitive response? This brings me to a problem I had with a professor from the Univ. of Chicago and his papers on Obscurations. Okay, with the eye sense organ we can see and initiate citta and cetasikas respectively. Where can I find parameters that state I can only see as far as my arms length or as far as the cube farm you work in allows you or as far as the bank, usary institution, will let you? I do not subscribe to the position that restricts my sight since it was not the gang, not the employer and manufacturer of cube farms nor the bank, nor anybody, that gave me the opportunity to see thus they have no ability to restrict, put parameters into place, OBSCURE my sight. Let them delusion all they want to delusion, since delusion is a social norm and beneficial to society. We've just started so I hope ya got your seat belt on Nina! We're goin for a ride! ;)) Oh, what fun! toodles, colette 47313 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Re: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) lbidd2 Chris: "But, I wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'?" Hi Chris, Long time no see. I agree. As Howard said, whoever hasn't eradicated self view has self view. How that manifests in a forum of views is that we take a view as "who I am". There are other kinds of self view but I think that one is particularly applicable here. your friend, Ima View (Larry) 47314 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M and all, > > I have been without a computer for several days. It is good to be > back and to know all is well at DSG. You clearly spent some time crafting your reply and I also want to do a proper job of preparing my response. I had planned to work on my response on my flight, but at the last minute, my boss called with a major assignment to be done during my airplane time. I did read your message and I want to delay my reply until I get back home on the weekend and have a chance to check some specfic references from the texts. In summary, sorry for my lack of immediate reply. In any case, it appears as though your message has already stirred some discussion, so you will have your hands full for the next few days :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 47315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost: "Discipline" for Sarah. nilovg Hi Sarah, This is a helpful explanation of the aayatanas. I like the idea of a very fine balancing act. It also teaches us that the objects of awareness cannot be controlled. Nina. op 06-07-2005 11:04 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > It depends on many conditions which object will be > experienced at any time. No one can control whether visible object, sound > or heat will be experienced next. This is the point of the ayatanas or > meeting-point of various sense fields – only when all the conditions are > in place will there be the experience of a particular object – a very fine > balancing act. 47316 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Phil (and Howard), Can we think of a way to explain to others that this not passive idleness? I appreciate it very much that Howard keeps on asking about this, because this make me consider more about the development of understanding. Sukin's quote made it clear how very careful we have to be lest the idea of self enters and it is likely to do so many times.I like this one: <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a projection..> Nina. op 06-07-2005 16:46 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > It > doesn't come naturally to people in the modern world to wait for > understanding to arise due to conditions...we try to force things. > Our intentions are good about this, of course, but it is all about > attachment, desire for results, often, as I said the other day, > rooted in a subtle form of mortal fear - we are going to die and we > must have something to show for this life of ours! (This is just my > opinion based on my own experience.) So being patient and not > pressing ahead goes against the way of the world... 47317 From: "frank" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:34am Subject: Wat Metta is awesome. RE: [dsg] Re: Victor news dhamma_service I've personally been to Wat Metta several times, met, talked to, listened to dhamma talks by the abbott Thanissaro Bhikkhu, talked to the nagas and monks there, and I can personally attest to the fact that it is not a cult. Wat Metta is a very conducive environment to dhamma practice, and if I ordain someday that's one of the places I'd strongly consider. The monks there are allowed to do yoga, taiji, and after chores and the morning and evening group sit and dhamma talk, there's usually a very good amount of time to devote to walking and sitting meditation, or reading. My impression is that Thanisarro gives the monks plenty of room to decide how to best structure and allocate their free time to cultivation. Quite the opposite of a cult leader. From the writings of thanissaro, and my conversations with him, my impression is he's a no nonsense guy who has priority and focus on the most important aspects of dhamma, and runs the monastery in such a way that monks can also devote the majority of their time to the most important aspects of dhamma practice. Victor is in no danger. If for some reason the environment doesn't strike him as suitable, he can always transfer or disrobe after a training period (3 years?). BTW my friend saw Victor at Wat metta recently, said he looked happy and healthy, had lost some weight since Victor first became a naga. Wat metta probably does restrict monks from email, and it's probably for sensible reasons. For example, it took me 15 minutes just to compose this email. Imagine how long Victor could spend answering his correspondence. I would rather have spent my 15 minutes on something else, but felt it important to defend Wat Metta against unfounded fears and suspicion. -fk p.s. I don't know what Victor's dhamma name after ordination will be, but who would be surprised if it had something to do with the theme of anatta? -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of buddhatrue Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 6:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Victor news Hi Sarah and Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends-of-Victor, > > We received a note from Victor to say he's canceling his email account > when he shortly ordains. He can be contacted at: > > Metta Forest Monastery > PO Box 1409 > Valley Center, CA 92082 Why would Victor be cancelling his e-mail account just because he is ordaining, but he can still receive physical letters? Monks at my Buddhist temple in Arizona, Wat Promkunaram, are allowed to have e-mail accounts, and I know of monks at BPS who have e-mail accounts. E-mail isn't against the Vinaya. This smacks of a type of cult-like control which makes me uncomfortable- similiar to what I encountered at Wat Pah Nanachat. Tell Victor to be very careful. Metta, James 47318 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 9:04pm Subject: Mighty is Morality ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Morality is the Second Mental Perfection: Avoiding all Harm; Doing only Good; Purifying the Mind; This is the Dhamma of all the Buddhas! Dhammapada 183 Morality is the foundation, the initiator & the origin of all that is fine, good & beautiful... One Must therefore purify morality. Theragatha 612 Clean cultivated morality brings all success! Theragatha 608 Morality is a mighty Power! Morality is a forceful Weapon! Morality is a supreme Jewel! Morality is a marvellous Protection! Theragatha 614 Harmless towards all living beings, Speaking only kind & wise truths, Taking nothing not given, Enjoying only one's own partner, Never abusing drinks or drugs. Having given up & left all behind These five harmful actions, such One truly possess mighty right moral... AN III 205-6 What, Venerable Sir, is the rewarding advantage of morality? Freedom from regret, Ananda. And what is the advantage of freedom from regret? Joy that produces bliss, Ananda. Bliss then generates happiness. Happiness enables concentration. Concentration facilitates vision and knowledge. Vision and knowledge brings dispassion & detachment Dispassion & detachment induces direct experience of Certain & Complete Mental Release, Ananda. AN X.1 Intention always comes first. Intention is of all states the primer. By intention are all things initiated. By construction of mind are all phenomena formed. So - if with good intention one thinks, speak or act: Joy surely follows one, like the never-leaving shadow However !!! - if with evil intention one thinks, speak or act: Pain certainly follows one, like the wheel follows the car. Dhammapada 1+2 Both the moral & immoral doings; Both the good & the Bad actions; That human beings do here; These are truly their own possession. These they take along with them when they go, These are what follows them like a shadow, that never ever leaves... So do only what is admirable & advantageous, as an accumulating investment for the future life. Good prior doings are the only support & help for any being, when they rearise in the next world. SN III 4 Here and now the good-doer rejoices... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of good reaps only joy and satisfaction ... So both here and there, the wise with merit well done & stored, enjoys the purity of prior actions. Dhammapada 15 Here and now the bad-doer suffers... Even so after passing away and re-emerging, the doer of wrong reaps only pain and regret ... So both here and there, the fool with wrong view & bad behavior, suffers agony as the inevitable effect of prior evil action. Dhammapada 16 As the yak-ox watch her tail even onto death, without breaking through, when caught in thorns, guard your doings as your own life, by avoiding all overstepping this fine line limiting right from wrong. The Basket of Behaviour, Cariyapitaka The Bodhisatta once as the Naga serpent King Sankhapala guarded his precepts of moral habit, even when tortured: 'Though pierced with sharp bamboo stakes and hacked with hunting knives. I raged no anger against these hunters, as this was my perfection of Morality!' Sankhapala Jataka no. 524 The 5 precious precepts (pañca-sila): I accept the training rule to avoid killing breathing beings. I accept the training rule not to take anything, that is not given. I accept the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. I accept the training rule to desist from incorrect speech. I accept the training rule to shun drinks & drugs causing carelessness. These are timeless laws of only Good, which all the mighty Seers of the past have fully followed & made their Way! The Virtue of Morality is like Rock... A Solid Foundation for all Good States! Immorality creates regret, and thus destroys any Joy... Purity creates calm, and thus the subtle concentration, which is necessary for gaining all higher understanding! Only higher Understanding sets completely Free... PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ! Let there be Happiness !!! http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma <...> 47319 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Wat Metta is awesome. RE: [dsg] Re: Victor news buddhatrue Hi Frank, Thanks for your response, which I guess was directed me though you didn't address me. Not sure what you mean when you refer to `nagas' and that Victor is now a `naga'. From my understanding, nagas are beings that live in a different realm/dimension than humans and can take the form of humans at command. Normally, nagas represent themselves in our world/dimension as serpents. In the Middle East, they are often referred to as jinns and are held with a certain amount of distrust (which is warranted- from my personal experience with jinns/nagas). Anyway, I hope that the foregoing has alerted you to one very important fact of life: Things are not always what they seem. I have special concern for Victor because I consider him a dhamma friend of mine whom I love and value his contributions to the dhamma. I wish him the best and hope that he thrives at Wat Metta. However, I want him to also realize that things are not always what they seem. I'm glad that you had so many positive experiences at Wat Metta. That is what is important: focus on your own growth and forget about the temple/source. Personally, I am not as enamored with Wat Metta, but that is my kamma. Thank you for the chance to dialogue. Good luck to you and to Victor. Metta, James 47320 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Jul 6, 2005 11:36pm Subject: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) sukinderpal Hi Chris, all, Long time no write :-) You wrote: > I am aware that the 'No formal meditation' group view regular times > and postures for meditation as indicating self view (a self who can > undertake certain practices to attain enlightenment) ... But, I > wonder, doesn't their view indicate 'a self view' .. one who will > undertake the practice of 'not formally meditating'? Perhaps the question to ask is, "Why meditation (re: the conventional activity)?" In a day I go about my daily activities never thinking about whether I should be doing or *not doing* formal sitting. There is no reason that I should be thinking anything about formal meditation. Only when I come across views put forward by others promoting it, is there a reaction. Yes indeed if I were to think that I `should not formally meditate', then this would clearly be `self view'. The habit of referring to self and stories when hearing or reading Dhamma, already makes it quite hard each time, for any real appreciation to arise. How much more so when the `self' has a project? In this regard the Abhidhamma is like a great gift for those of us who appreciate it in the right way. For others who seem to have that unreasonable resistance, there is a kind of struggle which I believe leads to losing sight of the goal, i.e. understanding the present moment. So no Chris, it is not about doing or not doing anything, either way that would be relying on conventional situations and activities, not `that' but `this', for the development of understanding. The idea of better time, place and activity is a proliferation of lobha and ditthi. My objection is towards the "view" that it must be certain place and activity or that one must `intend' as Howard professes. Both cases being the fact of not seeing `thinking' as being just conditioned (by self view), and instead being drawn in by the "ideas". Have you noticed how at every turn the `self' tries to justify what ever action is being taken and/or wants to take? I think only with any subsequent arising of sati and panna can there be recognition of any deception. When it comes to dhamma the same process also happens, in this case however, wrong practice and wrong view condition one another and as you know, this is the only real obstacle to taking the correct path. :-/ > A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I > think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the > Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain > qualities, behaviours and mindstates? Any development involves dhammas and not `selves'. No where did the Buddha when instructing his hearers to "develop", was he making a reference to the non-existent "self". Chris, you and millions of Buddhists today are hearing the exact same word [translated], *develop!* What decided that those hearers then became enlightened, whereas even someone so much respected as Acharn B. today, seems to be so off the mark? Certainly it is not `intention' is it, since I believe all that involves this idea of intention is simply `thinking' in a certain way. Some may say, sati, or viriya, or concentration, or saddha, but are these any good without panna? Have quite a few thoughts on Jhana and the question of `self view' being inherent and whether this is an excuse to *do* anything with `self' etc. but this is already too long, so I'll end here. Do write more often. :-) Metta, Sukinder 47321 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 0:30am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 242 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Uddhacca is not the same as what we mean by “restlessness” or “agitation”, used in conventional language. When we use the word restlessness we usually think of aversion and unpleasant feeling. However, uddhacca arises with each akusala citta, not only with citta rooted in aversion, dosa-múla-citta, but also with citta rooted in attachment, lobha-múla-citta, and citta rooted in ignorance, moha-múla-citta. When there is uddhacca we are forgetful as to kusala, we are unable to apply ourselves to any kind of kusala. Even when there is pleasant feeling, for example, when we are attached to a quiet place, there is restlessness, uddhacca, which arises together with lobha-múla-citta. We may think that we are calm at such a moment, but we have actually “mental excitement”. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47322 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita,Tep & all, I also appreciated the passages you selected on metta. --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: Here are the last two you gave: > And how does a bhikkhu abide with his mind imbued with friendliness > extending over one direction? Just as he would feel friendliness on > seeing a dearly favourite person! Even so do he extend loving-kindness > to all beings in all directions, as above so below. > > Abhidhamma Pitaka: > Appamañña-vibhanga > > > Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth > one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; > in shining, glowing and beaming radiance such release of mind by > universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... > > Itivuttaka 27 ... S: In John Ireland's translation (BPS), he gives almost the same here: "Bhikkhus, whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the mind-release of loving-kindness*. The mind-release of loving-kindness surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant." He adds an interesting footnote for [*] which Tep may like to comment on as I think he was discussing ceto-vimutti before with someone: "Mind-release (cetovimutti) is the culmination of the mind's purgation of emotional impurities by the practice of tranquillity (samatha). There are various kinds of mind-release, and although they are very exalted, the only one that is irreversible is the unshakable mind-release (akuppaa ceto vimutti) possessed by an arahant. The practice of loving-kindness, the first of the four divine abidings, culminates in the boundless mind-release (appamaa.naa cetovimutti) in which all ill will or malice (vyaapaada) is removed from the mind." Let me add he verse at the end of the sutta: "For one who mindfully develops Boundless loving-kindness Seeing the destruction of clinging The fetters are worn away. If with an uncorrupted mind He pervades just one being With loving kindly thoughts, He makes some merit through that. But a noble one produces An abundance of merit By having a compassionate mind Towards all living beings. Those royal seers who conquered The earth crowded with beings Went about making offerings: The horse sacrifice, the man sacrifice, The water rites, the soma sacrifice, And that called 'the Unobstructed.' But those do not share Even a sixteenth part Of a mind well cultivated In loving kindly thoughts, Just as the entire starry host Is dimmed by the moon's radiance. One who does not kill Nor cause others to kill, Who does not conquer Nor cause others to conquer, Kindly towards all beings - He has enmity for none." ***** Any further comments? Metta, Sarah ====== 47323 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry & Howard, I'm glad Howard has joined in this thread too. --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > One comment from the commentary you quoted: "the explanation by way of > agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative > manner of speaking." > > L: I understand "a relative manner of speaking" to mean "not really". > See long quotation in next post, "knowing an object". ... S: Yes. 'not really' an agent or person as the term might suggest. However, I think that we should be in no doubt that consciousness experiences its object as the quotes I've given have showed. Thank you for the wonderful passages you quoted from the Vism -- I don't see any conflict. Vism X1V,82 " 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why 'consciousness' is said (M i 292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning." ***** Let me be bold and suggest that when it's suggested that consciousness is 'an event that is the experiential presence of an object', rather than the experiencing of an object, it seems to be giving it a Mahayana or Nagarjuna gloss, rather than a clear understanding of the meaning of namas(i.e cittas and cetasikas) and their functions which are to experience or cognize their objects in various ways. Seeing does experience visible object. Seeing is not a thing or entity, but it certainly is a dhamma or reality which has this function. I therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, which was: "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". ... L: > As for the nature of visible object, you could well be right that it is > one consciousness of multiple colors and brightnesses (aka "light"). ... S: Even this sounds like a story about it -- that's why in the end we can only say it's 'that which is seen', just like it's always been. ... >I > don't have a clear experiential sense of it. Could you give an example > of visible object (paramattha dhamma) as object of desire? ... S: LIke now -- desire is there as soon as there is seeing, whichever way we look, countless times just as we speak, I think. .... > Regarding the question of where in the Satipatthana Sutta is there an > indication of cognizing own-nature (sabhava) you answered that > own-nature is the distinguishing characteristic of a reality. I think we > have to say a little more than that. Eye-consciousness 'knows' (in the > Biblical sense) the distinguishing characteristic of visible object > which is color or light. But only wisdom (paññaa) 'knows' the > own-nature of visible object. ... S: I would say that eye-cosnciousness experiences or 'knows' visible object exactlyas it is (with its particular nature or characteristic when it's experienced), but only wisdom knows or understands it. Throughout the day, eye-consciousness peforms its experiencing function perfectly, but there's no understanding anything about either the experiencing or the v.o. which is seen. .... >I would propose that own-nature is the > elemental nature. In other words, the parts of an apparent whole. In the > suttas this is discussed as khandhas, and the commentaries refined this > with the doctrine of momentariness, i.e., one consciousness at a time. I > think "body in the body" is a precursor to that. ... S: Let's be clear that with or without any understanding, only the khandhas 'exist', arise and fall away, lasting for the briefest 'moment'. Whatever we read, whether it is about 'body' or 'breath' or anything else, there are only these khandhas. ..... > What this means is that all consciousnesses except one rooted in wisdom > 'know' only 'wholes', while a wisdom consciousness is the experience of > that apparent whole as a congeries of elements. .... S: Eye consciousness never sees a 'whole'. It sees visible object, a rupa. Hearing never hears a 'whole', it hears sound, another rupa. However, with ignorance, we think we see people and places (or a TV workman in front of me now talking on his mobile loudly as I type:/). So wisdom only knows what is being experienced anyway, but usually not known. This is why sati and panna are said to 'follow' (anussati), I believe. They follow and know what is being experienced anyway -- they don't create new ways of experience or find new objects not cognized by cittas. This is why there is no special object to be attended to or no special thing to be done in the development of satipatthana. .... >For this reason, I would > say what desire desires is always an apparent whole, which in abhidhamma > is classified as a concept. ... S: I would say, just what is normally experienced -- visible objects, sounds and concepts about them. Desire can and does slip in anytime. I hope this clarifies, I think they are really good points to discuss. Pls continue if you have further comments/disagreements. Howard, too. I think I've finished and so has the TV workman on his mobile, thankfully. Metta, Sarah ========= 47324 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Evan, ---------------- E: > Wow!!! What a strong statement. I would not want to be one who is the originator of that statement. I think it shows great attachment to views. ----------------- Thanks for your reply. I am glad (if glad is the right word) that my statement received such a strong response. At the time of writing, it didn't seem quite so controversial. But then, I have been in DSG longer than you. I have seen a lot of controversy. :-) ------------------ E: > You seem to be saying that there are 2 types of jhana. Those taught and practiced many thousands of years ago and those taught and practiced today. Jhana is jhana as far as I can understand and thousands of years doesn't change the nature of jhana. ------------------ No, I don't think there are two types of jhanas: I agree with you that they remain the same as when they were first taught long before the Buddha. --------------------------- E: > Back in the time of the Buddha, as today, there are reports of lay people who can attain jhana. --------------------------- The reports of attainments in the Buddha's day can be relied upon because they are found in the Pali Canon. The modern-day reports are a different matter. I won't go into that now unless you would like to discuss it further. -------------------------------- E: > Some easily, some not so easily. I don't see what is so different today. --------------------------------- "Easily" is not the right word. I think the Buddha always referred to jhana as "difficult to attain." He certainly referred to vipassana that way - even though some disciples attained after just one sermon. I think you will find that the wisdom needed for jhana and vipassana is accumulated over a long time. It is found only in beings who have lived the 'good life' many, many times over a very long period - perhaps aeons. In the Buddha's day, there were thousands of people ripe for enlightenment. They had just a little "dust in their eyes" and they needed only a few words of Dhamma to show them the way. Some of those people attained in the Buddha's lifetime, while others had to live the good life another one or two (or more) times. I think by 2005 they have all gone to parinibbana (or almost all). But that is just another of my humble opinions. (Where were you and I when the Buddha was alive? Why are we still uninstructed worldlings?) Leaving aside my humble opinions, we could look at the Pali Canon and commentaries: they predict the slow demise of the sasana. In message 24386, Robert K gives some pertinent quotes. I have attached a part of it at the bottom of this post. In the first thousand years after the Buddha's parinibbana, there were arahants who were "released both ways." That meant they had developed vipassana and jhana in tandem. Those arahants had the same extraordinary powers exhibited by some of the Buddha's chief disciples. After the first one thousand years, attainment was by means of vipassana only. That doesn't mean that no one practised jhana anymore - it just means they couldn't use it as a vehicle for vipassana - and I assume jhana was still quite common for a while. But it seems to me that it must have been on the way out. If someone already had the accumulated panna for jhana meditation, then it stands to reason they would continue to develop it, but why would anyone start from scratch? Why wouldn't they be more interested in vipassana? I repeat; there is a lot of my own humble opinion in this, and I won't speculate any further - unless, of course, you want to continue. Ken H Anagatavamsa commentary:"""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances. 'Here attainment means that for a thousand years only after the lord's complete Nirvana will monks be able to practice analytical insights. RobK: > The `analytical insights' is a translation of patisambhida and means the special wisdom of the greatest type of arahants. After these type become extinct there are still sukkhavipassaka arahants, who have no special powers. 47325 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:54am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Jon, > >If the foundation of a building is flawed, the entire building is unsafe. > > > >"one" is a number. Numbers are concepts par excellence. They denote > >quantity. Quantity is not a property of experience. To apply quantity > >to consciousness is a gross confusion of levels. > > > > Yes, "one" is a number, and numbers are concepts. But then, all > language is concepts (can you make a meaningful sentence without using > concepts?). > > Language that is used to describe what is real is still conceptual. But > I do not see how this means a 'confusion of levels'. Unless of course > you take the view that reality should never be discussed ;-)) > == I agree with the points you make. And there's nothing wrong with a natter about stuff. But even conventional speech has requirements which if unmet render a statement meaningless or confused. For example, the statement "A day has seven weeks" can be conventionally understood as being confused about some categories. The original statement to which I responded was along the lines of "there is only one citta at any time". I took citta to be a conventional reference to what is taken in Theravadin orthodoxy to be an irreducible, an absolute. That an irreducible is seen to occur in time and that it has quantity would suggest that it is not irreducible at all. That is why I suggested there was a confusion of levels. (I am working on the assumption that awareness of time and counting occur very much higher up the cognitive tree than basic sensing) Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47326 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Colette, > Oh, I see, when you say "now where were we" I take it that I'm the > platinum blonde on the casting couch and you're the Niles or Frazier > type that resembles the meglamania which possesses the middle-class > and the ABSOLUTE NEEDS of the mechanics, greese monkeys, called > psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay I'll bite, nibble at this bait > only to tempt your senses all the more with the meal that you believe yourself will be reeling in for the pleasure of the group you are a part of, see the proper definition of an orgy by/for Caligula. It could be a Bacchanalian orgy since I've been known to get lossed in > that x-tian orgy called Carnivale or Mardi Gras. ;)) A very nice paragraph indeed, rich in all sorts of wonderful allusions and metaphors. Unfortunately, when I wrote "now where were we" I was only referring to the fact that I had already partially replied to you. Sorry, not meaning to rain on your parade :-) > colette: I have just been sitting here reading The Stream of > Consciousness by William James: > > "How comes it about that a man reading something aloud for the first > time is ables immediately to emphasize all his words aright, unless > from the very first he have a sense of at least the form of the > sentence yet to come, whichsense is fused with his consciousness of > the present word, and modifies its emphasis in his mind so as to make > him give it the proper accent as he utters it?" > > Here I'm representing that the quantity of experience has made the > impression on the mind where the experience of the sense has been > categorized and is ready to be accessed as a person accesses their > computer files. > > Statement Vanquished, Points Colette, Advantage Colette. ;)) > ---------------- I'm happy to concede the point, the match, the trophy even :-). But.... before one can read one has to learn to read. And before one can count one has to learn to count. In the context of evolution, it may take millions of years for sentient beings to develop the art of counting. And in societies of sentient beings that have developed counting, it still takes years for a newborn to learn that black art. The point of all the above is that it is millions of years of evolution and years of learning within a cultural context that are speaking when it is said that at the most fundamental level there is only one experience at a time. And it is also millions of years of evolution and years of learning within another cultural context speaking when it is said that the first statement is quite confused. There is experience way before there is counting. Having learnt to count it is easy to believe that's what's actually happening. Having learnt to count it is pretty damn hard to stop counting. But when you manage it, there's not a quantity in sight, not anywhere :-) Toodles Herman 47327 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 0:05am Subject: Point of Breath Focus ... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Tep Sastri & friends who asked: A: >Did you mean these 32 objects or something else? I meant the focus-point of air-touch in the nostrils. B: >Please more on the: > 1: The sign of Calm: Samatha-Nimitta >2: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta These are somewhat individual, but I can relate my own: _The sign of Calm (__Samatha-Nimitta):_ I experience as almost solidly touchable tranquility, where all distractions have been significantly reduced and appears to be remote and alien. Very soft and extremely pleasant. Yet still not completely stable and somewhat fragile. Maintenance is required. _The sign of Concentration (in anapanasati meditation): _ I experience it as as a tactile extreme intensification of the quality and sensation of the touch in the nose. All even 'atomic' and 'millisecond' variations in the breath is effortlessly sensed & experienced. Focus of attention is unified on a single object only, and steadily so. Mind works like a train on rails moving fast and invariably towards the target. Elated & extraordinarily effective. What one wants to think, that one thinks. What one wants to know, that this hyper-effective mind instantly examines and successfully finds out in almost no time... A 'doubt-eradicator' beyond measures! Important: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta during anapanasati meditation is NOT VISUAL... Do not look out for anything! Visual signs of concentration is developed in Kasina meditation, but NOT during breathing meditation. Be increasingly attentive to the INTENSITY, QUALITY & CONTINUITY of the ever moving & changing sensation of air-touch in the nostrils... Then - one day - not when you want & urge it - you will enjoy a unique experience of the unified mind... Good Luck. Keep on Keeping on. Never give up. : - ] 47328 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Phil > Hi Phil (and Howard), > Can we think of a way to explain to others that this not passive idleness? Ph: I think if people have a prejudice against Abhidhamma for whatever reason (Howard is not such a person, from what I gather, though he doubts that Abhidhamma was spelled out by the Buddha Himself - I must say I join him in that doubt, but don't consider it a problem if it was indeed early Arahants who developed Abhidhamma in the light of wisdom they gained through the Buddha) we can encourage them to read and reflect on the salayatanasamyutta, the khandasamyutta, the dhatusamyutta and nidanasamyutta and other books in samyutta nikaya. Reading and reflecting on all these suttas through which the Buddha teaches the elemental, momentary, anatta nature of reality should, one would think, soon enough liberate people from notions of control. Honestly, I don't know how one can read the anatta sutta and still believe in control. If people can come to Abhidhamma through your books the way I did, that's even better, because we can most certainly understand suttas in the light of Abhidhamma better than we can without. But as I said above, samyutta nikaya seems enough to make it very clear that the notion of being able to control the rise and fall of cittas is incorrect. As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in daily life. Howard has referred to hopelessness and negativity or something like that, but we know of our confidence in kusala. There is nothing hopeless about beginning to uproot defilements. As Jon says in one talk, and I paraphrase, even a single moment of shallow awareness of a present reality is of such import that it frees us from aspiring to greater things. But how can that be communicated? What I've written above are just words. Them that know know. I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant but I think it's true. I > appreciate it very much that Howard keeps on asking about this, because this > make me consider more about the development of understanding. Ph: Me too. I appreciate it when Howard says "we start where we are, not where we want to be." I've been thinking about that a lot. > Sukin's quote made it clear how very careful we have to be lest the idea of > self enters and it is likely to do so many times.I like this one: > <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it > is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the > future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a > projection..> Ph: I was just going to praise Sukin because I've been hearing so many insightful things from him in the talks, but the point is right understanding, not Sukin, of course. So what do we do? Stop worrying about how to convince other people. I was going to write a response to those comments by Ajahn B but I think I will just let it go and return to consideration of present realities instead of getting caught up in a debate. Especially since I'm so busy these days. But I may change my mind about that within the hour. There is no telling. Metta, Phil 47329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q.what is defilement. nilovg Hi Colette, yes, I am all for 'one by one'. Larry and I do this with our lifelong study of the Visuddhimagga! At first it may seem dry, but gradually you can see that it is beneficial for your daily life. Take ignorance. We learn that it is different from the way we see it in conventional language. There is ignorance for example of seeing now. We may have no idea what seeing is, we confuse experiencing what appears through eyesense with thinking about it. We attach to what is seen, but we do not even notice this. Why? Because ignorance darkens the true nature of realities. That is ignorance. With our Visuddhimagga studies next will be about dosa which has many shades and degrees: hatred, malice, violence, aversion, fear, gloominess. If you feel like it you can jump right into it. This can be the beginning of our scenic tour of the Abhidhamma! ***** I add your other questions of your last post: ------- C:What is a defilement? Is it not conditioned response or a cognitive response? _____ N: Responses may be wholesome, kusala, or unwholesome, akusala. Defilement or what is akusala is that which leads to your own harm, or other people's harm or both. This is said in the suttas. But people may not understand akusala from one definition. as you quoted. Akusala is an unhealthy state of mind, and it can bring unhappy results. Sometimes it helps to consider first the opposite: kusala. Such as generosity, siila, mental development. When you are generous, the citta is gentle and you do not think of your own gain. You have confidence in kusala, in the Buddha's teachings. Whereas when you have aversion or fear, the citta is savage, there is no wieldiness, it is rigid. The citta is wihtout confidence in kusala, it is akusala. But you have to consider and verify this in your life. Whatever you experience through the senses, pleasant or unpleasant is conditioned by kamma. How are our responses to it? How is the citta? That is more important than thinking of people or situations which brought about unhappy experiences. When we react in the negative way, we accumulate more of the same. When we blame others, the citta is rooted in aversion, dosa. This harms ourselves and it can harm others when it motivates harsh speech or worse, violent actions. Nina. op 05-07-2005 16:28 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > colette: yes, things have to be rationalized, realized, and acquired, > one at a time. Very methodical I may add. 47330 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 6:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 170. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 170. Cittas rooted in aversion. Intro. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals with dosa, aversion, and the other cetasikas that accompany akusala citta rooted in dosa. They are two types of citta: 1)accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, unprompted domanassa-sahagata.m, pa.tigha-sampayuttam, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m. 2) accompanied by unpleasant feeling, arising with anger, prompted domanassa-sahagata.m, pa.tigha-sampayuttam, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m. Fifteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations always accompany the first type of akusala citta rooted in aversion. These fifteen cetasikas include: five Œuniversals¹ (cetasikas which accompany every citta), namely, contact, volition, life faculty, concentration and attention. Two universals, feeling and saññaa, which accompany every citta are not reckoned here since they are not the khandha of formations. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jaatis (kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya), but not every citta. They are: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture (piiti, here translated as happiness), energy, wish-to-do (chanda) and determination. Rapture, piiti, does not accompany dosa-muulacitta since this citta always arises with unpleasant feeling. Rapture only accompanies, in the case of cittas of the sense sphere, cittas that arise with pleasant feeling. Thus, five particulars accompany akusala citta rooted in aversion. In this case, the universals and particulars perform their functions in the unwholesome way. They are all affected by dosa, aversion. For example, contact contacts the object of aversion, attention is wrong attention to the object of aversion, concentration focusses on the object of aversion, energy is energy for akusala. Volition is akusala and it can motivate unwholesome deeds, such as harsh speech and even acts of violence. There are four akusala cetasikas that accompany every akusala citta and thus, they also accompany dosa-muulacitta. They are: ignorance, moha, shamelessness (ahirika) recklessness (anottappa) restlessness (uddhacca) When dosa-muulacitta arises, there is also ignorance that does not know its true nature, there are no shame and fear of the consequences of dosa and there is agitation, no steadiness or calm. Furthermore, dosa-muulacitta is accompanied by dosa. Moha, ignorance, and dosa are the roots of this citta. Thus, in this context, fifteen cetasikas included in the khandha of formations are mentioned. These always accompany dosa-muulacitta, they are constant or fixed (niyata). The Visuddhimagga classifies some of the universals and particulars as ³or what-ever² (ye-vaa-pana-ka) or supplementary cetasikas. It follows the enumeration of the Dhammasa"nga.nii which does not mention all cetasikas concerned but gives the abreviation of ³or what-ever². In the case of dosa-muulacitta there are four supplementary factors: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara) and agitation (uddhacca). ***** Text Vis.: 170. (30)-(31) As regards the two [kinds of unprofitable consciousness] rooted in hate, there are, firstly, eighteen associated with the first (30), that is, eleven constant given in the texts as such, four or-whatever-states, and three inconstant. Herein the eleven given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), consciencelessness (xxxvii), shamelessness (xxxviii), (xlv) hate, delusion (xl). The four or-whatever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), agitation (xlii), attention (xxx) The three inconstant are these: (xlvi) envy, (xlvii) avarice, (xlviii) worry. ****** N: As to the three inconstants, these may or may not arise with dosa-muulacitta. If they accompany dosa-muulacitta citta they do so one at a time. As we shall see, sloth and torpor may or may not arise with the second dosa-muulacitta that is prompted. ***** Conclusion: when we study the enumeration of thecetasikas that accompany citta we should remember that cetasikas are realities, dhammas, that arise because of the apppropriate conditions. We are inclined to take the citta with aversion for self, but aversion does not belong to anyone, when the right conditions are present it arises. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of a moment of aversion. All the cetasikas of the above-mentioned list assist the akusala citta rooted in dosa and they perform each their own function. When dosa appears we can learn its characteristic and we can come to understand that it is only a dhamma devoid of self. It is a reality that arises because it has been accumulated. The latent tendency of aversion conditions its arising time and again. ******* Nina. 47331 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 7/7/05 12:02:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Phil (and Howard), Can we think of a way to explain to others that this not passive idleness? I appreciate it very much that Howard keeps on asking about this, because this make me consider more about the development of understanding. --------------------------------------- Howard: Whether "this" (i.e., waiting for conditions for understanding to arise) is passive idleness or not depends on what one does while "waiting". Results come about not by any old conditions but due to specific conditions, and for sentient beings, among the conditions that lead to results are volitions and volitional actions. Wish making may be among the counterproductive conditions, but we can hardly avoid that entirely. Moreover, wish making may also provide an energy spur to fruitful intentions and conditions, provided that the Buddha's teachings are understood and followed. The actions urged by the Buddha may often appear to be a sort of passive idleness, because they are subtle. Everything about the Dhamma is subtle. Dhammic goals include being fully awake and aware of things as they actually are and being without craving, aversion, and grasping, and central elements of corresponding practice are clear attentiveness, calming, and relinquishment, and these practice elements are subtle and unobvious. ----------------------------------- Sukin's quote made it clear how very careful we have to be lest the idea of self enters and it is likely to do so many times. ------------------------------------- Howard: It is very important to be aware of sense of self and idea of self entering in. It is also important to not let our becoming aware of the presence of this ego-illusion dissuade us from continuing our practice, for if it does, then Mara has had his way with us. -------------------------------------- I like this one: <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it is not of the present moment, it is thiking about doing something for the future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a projection..> ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. This is day-dreaming wishfulness. It needs to be seen and let go of. And we can do that, provided we cultivate our watchfulness. ---------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47332 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/7/05 5:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Let me be bold and suggest that when it's suggested that consciousness is 'an event that is the experiential presence of an object', rather than the experiencing of an object, it seems to be giving it a Mahayana or Nagarjuna gloss, rather than a clear understanding of the meaning of namas(i.e cittas and cetasikas) and their functions which are to experience or cognize their objects in various ways. ---------------------------------- Howard: No, I wasn't adopting a Mahayana slant. Actually, I would be perfectly happy saying that consciousness is "the experiencing of an object," but unhappy saying that consaciousness is "THAT [emphasis mine] which is conscious" or "that which experiences an object." Consciousness is an occurrence, it is an experiencing [we can debate duality vs nonduality another time], but it is NOT a knowing agent. That is my point: to avoid a self-oriented locution. --------------------------------------- Seeing does experience visible object. Seeing is not a thing or entity, but it certainly is a dhamma or reality which has this function. ---------------------------------- Howard: Seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But it is not something that experiences. The difference is important. Language is important, because it affects how we think about things. -------------------------------- I therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, which was: "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". ------------------------------------- Howard: I hope I've adequately explained why I do see a problem with it. It would be great, I think, if you would understand my perspective. Agreement is optio nal! ;-) ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Phil and Howard, op 07-07-2005 14:31 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > daily life. Howard has referred to hopelessness and negativity or > something like that, but we know of our confidence in kusala. There > is nothing hopeless about beginning to uproot defilements. As Jon > says in one talk, and I paraphrase, even a single moment of shallow > awareness of a present reality is of such import that it frees us > from aspiring to greater things. ----------- N: There is no helplessness and hopelessness if we see that even one moment of right understanding accumulates. It falls away, but it is never lost, it is accumulated and carried on from citta to citta. We should not underestimate this, and, we can check it in our life. When we listen to tapes in the morning, or, when we read exhortations in the suttas it can condition more understanding of dhammas, also during our daily work. ------ Ph: So what do we do? Stop worrying about how to convince other > people. N: No need to convince others. But it is good if we think of more ways to clarify matters concerning vipassana, from different angles. Nina. 47334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg]cognizes, but no article in Pali. nilovg Hi Howard, we have to go to the Pali text. No article is used here, no , only the declination of the verb. Perhaps you are happier with the Tiika: Tiika Vis. 82, English: with reference to its nature, in order to explain that it occurs merely because of conditions, thus, that it is a dhamma with its own nature. Apart from a dhamma with its own nature, there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action. N: As we read in the Vis.: In Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb cognizing in the third person singular. > op 07-07-2005 16:40 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But it is not something > that experiences. The difference is important. Language is important, because > it > affects how we think about things. > -------------------------------- > I > therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, > which was: > > "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it > knows (vijaanati) an object". > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I hope I've adequately explained why I do see a problem with it. It would > be great, I think, if you would understand my perspective. Agreement is optio > nal! ;-) 47335 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet HI Nina, Howard and all >> As Jon > > says in one talk, and I paraphrase, even a single moment of shallow > > awareness of a present reality is of such import that it frees us > > from aspiring to greater things. Ph: I thought afterwards - again - that I should be more careful about paraphrasing people. But there was an appreciation of the importance of moments of mindfulness. I like what I said once - "I can't see something and be someone at the same time." We are liberated only at the intellectual level by this sort of thing, but it is an intellectual understanding that pervades daily life in a very real way and plants the seed of the deeper understanding. > ----------- > N: There is no helplessness and hopelessness if we see that even one moment > of right understanding accumulates. It falls away, but it is never lost, it > is accumulated and carried on from citta to citta. We should not > underestimate this, and, we can check it in our life. > When we listen to tapes in the morning, or, when we read exhortations in the > suttas it can condition more understanding of dhammas, also during our daily > work. Ph: But no expactations, of course. We don't have the "if I read this sutta, it will lead to understanding here and now" kind of thinking. The conditionality is much looser, and there are so many other conditions at work. That very good and helpful experience I had from A Sujin's talk that helped me cope with my mother's illness could be taken the wrong way - I could start listening to the talks in a way that is trying too hard to suck the meaning out of them. Fortunately I'm aware of that danger and just let them roll by again and again. Occasionally the mind latches on to something and I jot it down in a notebook I carry with me. It would be better not to do that, but I've been doing that sort of thing for years. It comes natural to me due to conditions at work. > ------ > Ph: So what do we do? Stop worrying about how to convince other > > people. > N: No need to convince others. But it is good if we think of more ways to > clarify matters concerning vipassana, from different angles. Ph: Nina, you have done so much to help communicate Dhamma to the English speaking world. On and on and on, you press ahead, sharing your understanding of Dhamma, listening to others. Very impressive. Tres paramis.... Yes, I got over the silly beginner's view that it would be better to only hear from people who have the same ideas. Of course we learn from hearing other's views, discussing. And the irritation it causes me so often is material for understanding... Metta, Phil 47336 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg]cognizes, but no article in Pali. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/7/05 11:02:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, we have to go to the Pali text. No article is used here, no , only the declination of the verb. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ahhhh! :-) ---------------------------------------- Perhaps you are happier with the Tiika: Tiika Vis. 82, English: with reference to its nature, in order to explain that it occurs merely because of conditions, thus, that it is a dhamma with its own nature. Apart from a dhamma with its own nature, there truly is no one at all who is a doer, and thus, he said ³it cognizes², in order to explain merely the nature of an action. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a bit better. --------------------------------------- N: As we read in the Vis.: In Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb cognizing in the third person singular. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for this, Nina. That's really important, as I see it. I'm very pleased!! ---------------------------------------- op 07-07-2005 16:40 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But it is not something > that experiences. The difference is important. Language is important, because > it > affects how we think about things. > -------------------------------- > I > therefore see no problem at all with the statement I gave before, Howard, > which was: > > "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it > knows (vijaanati) an object". > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > I hope I've adequately explained why I do see a problem with it. It would > be great, I think, if you would understand my perspective. Agreement is optio > nal! ;-) ======================= With metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47337 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 4:19am Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your letter. It is much appreciated. I have some long-standing perplexity about the canon, which some points of your letter brought back to the fore. I'll cut to those sections. > > That experience was composed of elements was certainly a current > > belief in those days, and the teaching of the Buddha in relation to > > that was not to expand that and get into ever finer and finer > detail > > about that, but that all condition phenomena have three basic > > characteristics, and how to get beyond that. > > I disagree. I can only guess that you haven't read Samyutta > Nikaya. It is chock full of elements. There is one book devoted to > khandas, another to sense bases, another to dependent origination, > another to feelings, and many more. I have only begun to play around > at the surface, but I can assure you that in order to get at > understanding the three chracteristics there must be understanding > of realities approached from many different angles, with varying > degree of details. For example, in SN 22:57, the Buddha said that we > should be "triple investigators": "And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu a > triple investigator? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu investigates by way > of the elements, by way of the sense basess, and by way of dependent > origination." And note that this is in the samyutta devoted to the > khandas. The following is an excerpt from the article on papanca from Nyanatiloka's dictionary (Sanskrit prapañca): In doctrinal usage, it signifies the expansion, differentiation, 'diffuseness' or 'manifoldness' of the world; and it may also refer to the 'phenomenal world' in general, and to the mental attitude of 'worldliness'. In A. IV, 173, it is said: "As far as the field of sixfold sense-impression extends, so far reaches the world of diffuseness (or the phenomenal world; papañcassa gati); as far as the world of diffuseness extends, so far extends the field of sixfold sense-impression. Through the complete fading away and cessation of the field of sixfold sense-impression, there comes about the cessation and the coming-to-rest of the world of diffuseness (papañca-nirodho papañca-vupasamo)." The opposite term nippapañca is a name for Nibbána (S. LIII), in the sense of 'freedom from samsaric diffuseness'. - Dhp. 254: "Mankind delights in the diffuseness of the world, the Perfect Ones are free from such diffuseness" (papañcábhiratá pajá, nippapañca tathágatá). - The 8th of the 'thoughts of a great man' (mahá-purisa-vitakka; A. VIII, 30) has: "This Dhamma is for one who delights in non-diffuseness (the unworldly, Nibbána); it is not for him who delights in worldliness (papañca)." - For the psychological sense of 'differentiation', see M. 18 (Madhupindika Sutta): "Whatever man conceives (vitakketi) that he differentiates (papañceti); and what he differentiates, by reason thereof ideas and considerations of differentiation (papañca-saññá-sankhá) arise in him." On this text and the term papañca, see Dr. Kurt Schmidt in German Buddhist Writers (WHEEL 74/75) p. 61ff. - See D. 21 (Sakka's Quest; WHEEL 10, p. Compare that to the 37 things that lead to enlightenment, or the great lists of namas and rupas that some suggest are essential to seek out and know, and there you have my perplexion. Are there two Buddhisms, one for those who do not even seek to discriminate between seeing and hearing, and one for those who are inclined to know every phenomenon according to any number of criteria? It is clear from the section I quoted above that nibbana and papanca are opposites. It is not clear to me how analytical or synthesising acts of the mind, as required by that current of Buddhism that promulgates the need to know things at that elemental level which supposedly is the real reality, are not a variety of papanca. To me, it seems that when there is no analysis or no synthesis, there are not elements, there is .......... Over to you, Phil :-) Kind Regards Herman 47338 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: Point of Breath Focus ... buddhistmedi... Hi, Ven. Samahita {Attn.: Howard, Nina, Larry, Sarah, Tom and others }- Thank you for posting here your answers to my original (longer) questions at the other group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/ . The original dialogue on the anapanasati meditation was : >Samahita: How is it done? By adverting mind to another object. T: There are 32 objects (vatthu) comprising the anapanasati bhavana as follows: (1) Breathing in long, he knows 'I breathe in long'; (2) or breathing out long, he knows 'I breathe out long'. ... ... ... (31) He trains thus 'I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment'; (32) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment'. Did you mean these 32 objects or something else? (question 1) > Samahita: When momentary concentration is touched: Note & >characterize the qualities of: >1: The sign of Calm: Samatha-Nimitta >2: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta >The proximate cause of absorption is the skill in directing mind to >this sign of concentration, which then triggers entry into onepointedness. Tep: Please explain the sign of calm and the sign of concentration, resulting in onepointedness, for the 32 objects as shown above (in Question 1)? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Dear Tep Sastri & friends who asked: > > A: >Did you mean these 32 objects or something else? > I meant the focus-point of air-touch in the nostrils. > > B: >Please more on the: > > 1: The sign of Calm: Samatha-Nimitta > >2: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta > > These are somewhat individual, but I can relate my own: > > _The sign of Calm (__Samatha-Nimitta):_ > I experience as almost solidly touchable tranquility, where all > distractions have been significantly reduced and appears to be > remote and alien. Very soft and extremely pleasant. Yet still not > completely stable and somewhat fragile. Maintenance is required. > > _The sign of Concentration (in anapanasati meditation): _ > I experience it as as a tactile extreme intensification of the > quality and sensation of the touch in the nose. All even 'atomic' > and 'millisecond' variations in the breath is effortlessly sensed & > experienced. Focus of attention is unified on a single object only, > and steadily so. Mind works like a train on rails moving fast and > invariably towards the target. Elated & extraordinarily effective. > What one wants to think, that one thinks. What one wants to know, > that this hyper-effective mind instantly examines and successfully > finds out in almost no time... A 'doubt-eradicator' beyond measures! > > Important: The sign of Concentration: Samadhi-Nimitta during > anapanasati meditation is NOT VISUAL... Do not look out for anything! > Visual signs of concentration is developed in Kasina meditation, but > NOT during breathing meditation. Be increasingly attentive to the > INTENSITY, QUALITY & CONTINUITY of the ever moving & changing sensation of air-touch in the nostrils... Then - one day - not when you want & urge it - you will enjoy a unique experience of the unified mind... > > Good Luck. > Keep on Keeping on. > Never give up. > > : - ] 47339 From: "frank" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:01am Subject: RE: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) dhamma_service Hi Chris, C: A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? Fk: If we take to heart that the Buddha's teaching was pragmatic, and carefully consider the limitations of discursive thinking, book study, email list dialogue, then it should be pretty clear.that "develop/developing" should entail some type of practice that is direct. Keeping in mind pragmatic, how do we then determine what is direct practice? There should be gradual if not radical attenuation of unwholesome qualities, and an increase in wholesome qualities, including concentration and one pointedness of mind. If there is no one pointedness of mind, how could one ever hope to really see that there is no self who does or doesn't do sitting meditation? Without right concentration brought to full development, at best we have an indirect intellectual inference that there is no self who does sitting meditation, but when stakes are high and real life hits, what good is that intellectual inference? A basic grasp of the core Buddhist principles at the theoretical level is absolutely indispensable, but from there, we have to really get our priorities straight and discern what type of practice would bring all the factors of enlightenment to full development, including right concentration. I'm not advocating that we abandon book study of dhamma once we grasp the essentials, but I am strongly suggesting that we keep the pragmatic spirit in mind and carefully assess how our practice is bringing real attainment and attenuation of defilements, and make necessary adjustments and improvements. Constantly reassess. Are you ready to die? Can you experience that moment with readiness and equanimity? If not, can you look in your heart and honestly say that you've done everything in your power in this precious life to earnestly practice the Buddha's path? In an interesting parallel to the frequent sentiment I see on this list that right concentration or even mundane one pointed concentration is too hard to attain without aeons of accumulation, I've noticed in our school systems it's very common now for kids to be diagnosed by professionals or even themselves as having ADD (attention deficit disorder),as if it's some new incurable affliction that only affects modern people. Most of these kids don't have ADD. What they have is lack of mindfulness, lack of concentration, lack of motivation and too much sugar and too much junk food. How do I know? They can't pay attention for 5 minutes in math, but they can sit in front of a television for 5 hours straight watching movies or playing video games without taking a piss or eating. As for the disease of unattainable one pointed concentration for Buddhists, good news, there is a cure! You know how I know? If list members can focus for hours reading abidhamma (which I can't even do because I fall asleep or drop into a coma), and they can spend hours in total concentration and focus engaged in email dialogue, then they can certainly attain lofty states of samatha. Can you focus on the breath without the mind wandering off for 10 minutes? I bet you can. How about 9 minutes? I bet you can. 8 minutes? 5 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds? 10 seconds? 2 seconds? And soon, you can stay with the breath without the mind buzzing away for more than a fraction of second to wonder about the past,future, or discursive commentary or some random thought. At this point, you're confident that you still have lots of improvement and progress that is well within your reach... -fk 47340 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: Develop/development (Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm) upasaka_howard Hi, Frank (and Chris) - On reading your post, Frank, the adjective 'gladdening' came immediately to mind! Well done! (Sadhu X 3) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/7/05 2:09:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank@... writes: Hi Chris, C: A little away from your point about Jhana or concentration - but I think it is worth discussing what exactly members understand the Buddha to mean when instructing hearers to "develop" certain qualities, behaviours and mindstates? Fk: If we take to heart that the Buddha's teaching was pragmatic, and carefully consider the limitations of discursive thinking, book study, email list dialogue, then it should be pretty clear.that "develop/developing" should entail some type of practice that is direct. Keeping in mind pragmatic, how do we then determine what is direct practice? There should be gradual if not radical attenuation of unwholesome qualities, and an increase in wholesome qualities, including concentration and one pointedness of mind. If there is no one pointedness of mind, how could one ever hope to really see that there is no self who does or doesn't do sitting meditation? Without right concentration brought to full development, at best we have an indirect intellectual inference that there is no self who does sitting meditation, but when stakes are high and real life hits, what good is that intellectual inference? A basic grasp of the core Buddhist principles at the theoretical level is absolutely indispensable, but from there, we have to really get our priorities straight and discern what type of practice would bring all the factors of enlightenment to full development, including right concentration. I'm not advocating that we abandon book study of dhamma once we grasp the essentials, but I am strongly suggesting that we keep the pragmatic spirit in mind and carefully assess how our practice is bringing real attainment and attenuation of defilements, and make necessary adjustments and improvements. Constantly reassess. Are you ready to die? Can you experience that moment with readiness and equanimity? If not, can you look in your heart and honestly say that you've done everything in your power in this precious life to earnestly practice the Buddha's path? In an interesting parallel to the frequent sentiment I see on this list that right concentration or even mundane one pointed concentration is too hard to attain without aeons of accumulation, I've noticed in our school systems it's very common now for kids to be diagnosed by professionals or even themselves as having ADD (attention deficit disorder),as if it's some new incurable affliction that only affects modern people. Most of these kids don't have ADD. What they have is lack of mindfulness, lack of concentration, lack of motivation and too much sugar and too much junk food. How do I know? They can't pay attention for 5 minutes in math, but they can sit in front of a television for 5 hours straight watching movies or playing video games without taking a piss or eating. As for the disease of unattainable one pointed concentration for Buddhists, good news, there is a cure! You know how I know? If list members can focus for hours reading abidhamma (which I can't even do because I fall asleep or drop into a coma), and they can spend hours in total concentration and focus engaged in email dialogue, then they can certainly attain lofty states of samatha. Can you focus on the breath without the mind wandering off for 10 minutes? I bet you can. How about 9 minutes? I bet you can. 8 minutes? 5 minutes? 1 minute? 30 seconds? 10 seconds? 2 seconds? And soon, you can stay with the breath without the mind buzzing away for more than a fraction of second to wonder about the past,future, or discursive commentary or some random thought. At this point, you're confident that you still have lots of improvement and progress that is well within your reach... -fk /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth nilovg Hi Howard, ---------- > Howard writes: > Whether "this" (i.e., waiting for conditions for understanding to arise) > is passive idleness or not depends on what one does while "waiting". ------ N: Very good! ------ H: Results come about not by any old conditions but due to specific conditions, ------- N: By conditions of the past, and also the present conditions, but all very specific. We should not oversee those of the past, even from past lives. Also in the past we may have listened to the Dhamma, where else does our interest today come from? And in the more recent past we listened, discussed, considered, and during all this time understanding could grow just a tiny bit. Think of the four Wheels sutta where it is explained that the merits of the past, association with the right friends, living in the right place are conditions. ------ H: and for > sentient beings, among the conditions that lead to results are volitions and > volitional actions. ----- N: Yes, kusala volition or intention. This I do not see so much as a controversial point. So long as we see it as a conditioned dhamma, and I know you do that. The cetasikas study helps me to see that kusala volition is supported by many other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati, lightness, adaptability, wieldiness etc. These cetasikas arise together with volition and support it while they are conascent. ------- H: Wish making may be among the counterproductive conditions, > but we can hardly avoid that entirely. ----- N: I quote from your other post, where you clarify more: H: And this is so, because we all have sense-of-self and self-view, except > for those ariyans here who are very adeptly keeping themselves under wraps! > ;-)) > I personally do not literally think there is "a self who can undertake > certain practices to attain enlightenment," but I do think that cultivation is > literally doable, prompted by cetana. ---------- N: Yes, the latent tendency of wrong view is still there. But at the moment of kusala citta, there is not wrong view at the same time. I am grateful to Kh. Sujin and other Dhamma friends to point out to me wrong view of self, it is so tricky. And, as you also said, it is necessary to know that one has it. ------- H: Moreover, wish making may also provide > an energy spur to fruitful intentions and conditions, provided that the Buddha's > teachings are understood and followed. ------- N: Among the many intricate conditions there is also akusala that can condition kusala, by way of natural decisive support condition. ------ H: The actions urged by the Buddha may > often appear to be a sort of passive idleness, because they are subtle. > Everything about the Dhamma is subtle. Dhammic goals include being fully awake > and aware of things as they actually are and being without craving, aversion, and > grasping, ------ N: We should be truthful and sincere and ask ourselves: is this a fact? At the moment of kusala citta there are no attachment or aversion, but then they arise again. They should be realized as such, I think. They are condiitoned dhammas. -------- H: and central elements of corresponding practice are clear attentiveness, calming, and relinquishment, and these practice elements are subtle and unobvious. > ----------------------------------- N: I agree that detachment is the goal and we should also begin with detachment, that is, no attachment to rapid progress or result. I would like to emphasize more the role of paññaa. Different levels of it: intellectual, and then direct understanding. But here I am, there is a big step to be taken from pariyatti to patipatti and the to pativedha, the realization. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is very important to be aware of sense of self and idea of self > entering in. It is also important to not let our becoming aware of the > presence of this ego-illusion dissuade us from continuing our practice, for if it does, > then Mara has had his way with us. > -------------------------------------- N: To continue developing understanding, and not to be dissuaded: here the courage, the perseverance, the right effort comes in. quote N: I like this one: > <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it > is not of the present moment, it is thinking about doing something for the > future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a > projection..> > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed. This is day-dreaming wishfulness. It needs to be seen and > let go of. And we can do that, provided we cultivate our watchfulness. > ---------------------------------- N: Instead of watchfulness I like to say again: understanding that has to become so keen and sharp. This is more than just watchfulness. But true, when there is sati there can be the development of direct understanding for that short moment. Nina. 47342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noticing, and what next? nilovg Hi Howard, By the way, Lodewijk says that he does not have much to say to your post you wrote before about the three trainings. He says, that he very well understands your points, that you have valid points. As for me, I always appreciate it, as I said, that you go on inquiring what I see as the right conditions for satipatthana, a good reminder, hang on to these points. When reading your post to Ken H, I appreciate it that you see the disadvantage of ignorance. I think you see the benefit of understanding. Understanding also attachment. You write: < the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins.> But we read and hear so little about the details *how*. You said that while being aware of breath you notice more hardness, heat, etc. of breath. More than in daily life where you find many distractions. You speak about applying the three characteristics and D.O. That is another step to be taken, but how does this follow? How do you personally see this? I do not think it could happen automatically, paññaa develops stage by stage. What is the step from mindfulness of breath to paññaa that realizes the three characteristics? Do you think it necesary to attain jhana first? Nina. op 06-07-2005 16:29 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > Howard writes to Ken H: > A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of > that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really > ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a > drop, > there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of > suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at > first, > the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is > fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more > gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique > of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. 47343 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah {Attn.: Jon} - By including 'Tep' with Ven. Samahita in the message #47322, it shows that you might have read the message I wrote to Jon earlier < 'As soon as your mind has become steadied, quite steadied internally, bhukkhu, and arisen evil unprofitable things do not obsess your mind and remain, then you should train thus: "The mind-deliverance of lovingkindness will be developed by me, frequently practiced, made the vehicle, made the foundation, established, consolidated, and properly undertaken". You should train thus, bhikkhu'.>. Indeed, Sarah, the advantage of this ceto-vimutti that you have quoted, i.e. "whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the mind-release of loving-kindness. The mind-release of loving-kindness surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant", is a great reward for 99.999% of people (including me) who will most certainly have several more rebirths. Your quoted verse says, "For one who mindfully develops boundless loving-kindness, seeing the destruction of clinging, the fetters are worn away". The words, "the fetters are worn away", should not be interpreted as all 10 fetters are going to be completely eradicated, since the greatest reward (if without penetration of the Four Noble Truths) is the Brahma worlds. "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- undertaken, eleven benefits can be expected. Which eleven? "One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind gains concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies unconfused and -- if penetrating no higher -- is headed for the Brahma worlds." [AN XI.16] The ability ro "gain concentration quickly" is , I think, the reason for perfecting lovingkindness meditation before attempting the kayanupassana satipatthana as stated in the sutta (that I discussed recently with Jon). Kind regards, Tep P.S. I only gave the ceto-vimutti source of reference to Htoo once, because he had asked for it. =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ven Samahita,Tep & all, > > I also appreciated the passages you selected on metta. > > --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > > He adds an interesting footnote for [*] which Tep may like to comment on as I think he was discussing ceto-vimutti before with someone: > > "Mind-release (cetovimutti) is the culmination of the mind's purgation of emotional impurities by the practice of tranquillity (samatha). There are various kinds of mind-release, and although they are very exalted, the only one that is irreversible is the unshakable mind-release (akuppaa ceto vimutti) possessed by an arahant. The practice of loving-kindness, the first of the four divine abidings, culminates in the boundless mind-release (appamaa.naa cetovimutti) in which all ill will or malice (vyaapaada) is removed from the mind." > > Let me add he verse at the end of the sutta: > > "For one who mindfully develops > Boundless loving-kindness > Seeing the destruction of clinging > The fetters are worn away. > > ====== 47344 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 9:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Our emphases differ, but we are not far apart. (A couple comments inserted below, in context) In a message dated 7/7/05 2:51:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, ---------- > Howard writes: > Whether "this" (i.e., waiting for conditions for understanding to arise) > is passive idleness or not depends on what one does while "waiting". ------ N: Very good! ------ H: Results come about not by any old conditions but due to specific conditions, ------- N: By conditions of the past, and also the present conditions, but all very specific. We should not oversee those of the past, even from past lives. Also in the past we may have listened to the Dhamma, where else does our interest today come from? And in the more recent past we listened, discussed, considered, and during all this time understanding could grow just a tiny bit. Think of the four Wheels sutta where it is explained that the merits of the past, association with the right friends, living in the right place are conditions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. I realize the importance of this. ------------------------------------------- ------ H: and for > sentient beings, among the conditions that lead to results are volitions and > volitional actions. ----- N: Yes, kusala volition or intention. This I do not see so much as a controversial point. So long as we see it as a conditioned dhamma, and I know you do that. ---------------------------------- Yes. --------------------------------- The cetasikas study helps me to see that kusala volition is supported by many other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati, lightness, adaptability, wieldiness etc. These cetasikas arise together with volition and support it while they are conascent. ------- H: Wish making may be among the counterproductive conditions, > but we can hardly avoid that entirely. ----- N: I quote from your other post, where you clarify more: H: And this is so, because we all have sense-of-self and self-view, except > for those ariyans here who are very adeptly keeping themselves under wraps! > ;-)) > I personally do not literally think there is "a self who can undertake > certain practices to attain enlightenment," but I do think that cultivation is > literally doable, prompted by cetana. ---------- N: Yes, the latent tendency of wrong view is still there. But at the moment of kusala citta, there is not wrong view at the same time. I am grateful to Kh. Sujin and other Dhamma friends to point out to me wrong view of self, it is so tricky. And, as you also said, it is necessary to know that one has it. ------- H: Moreover, wish making may also provide > an energy spur to fruitful intentions and conditions, provided that the Buddha's > teachings are understood and followed. ------- N: Among the many intricate conditions there is also akusala that can condition kusala, by way of natural decisive support condition. ------ H: The actions urged by the Buddha may > often appear to be a sort of passive idleness, because they are subtle. > Everything about the Dhamma is subtle. Dhammic goals include being fully awake > and aware of things as they actually are and being without craving, aversion, and > grasping, ------ N: We should be truthful and sincere and ask ourselves: is this a fact? At the moment of kusala citta there are no attachment or aversion, but then they arise again. They should be realized as such, I think. They are condiitoned dhammas. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm speaking of penultimate goals here, Nina, not occasional kusala moments. ------------------------------------------ -------- H: and central elements of corresponding practice are clear attentiveness, calming, and relinquishment, and these practice elements are subtle and unobvious. > ----------------------------------- N: I agree that detachment is the goal and we should also begin with detachment, that is, no attachment to rapid progress or result. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: We begin with whatever characteristics we have. The fact that we are serious about the Dhamma means, I think, that we are somewhat removed from ground zero, but the fact is that we can only begin where we are. We cannot force being unattached to progress or result, but can only cultivate, slowly, such a relinquishing of desire. ------------------------------------------------ I would like to emphasize more the role of paññaa. Different levels of it: intellectual, and then direct understanding. But here I am, there is a big step to be taken from pariyatti to patipatti and the to pativedha, the realization. > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is very important to be aware of sense of self and idea of self > entering in. It is also important to not let our becoming aware of the > presence of this ego-illusion dissuade us from continuing our practice, for if it does, > then Mara has had his way with us. > -------------------------------------- N: To continue developing understanding, and not to be dissuaded: here the courage, the perseverance, the right effort comes in. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes! Very good! :-) -------------------------------------- quote N: I like this one: > <.but self might come in and say 'I want to have awareness' and usually it > is not of the present moment, it is thinking about doing something for the > future, so we're not in the present moment at all but only going after a > projection..> > ---------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, indeed. This is day-dreaming wishfulness. It needs to be seen and > let go of. And we can do that, provided we cultivate our watchfulness. > ---------------------------------- N: Instead of watchfulness I like to say again: understanding that has to become so keen and sharp. This is more than just watchfulness. But true, when there is sati there can be the development of direct understanding for that short moment. ------------------------------------------ Howard: We begin with watchfulness and such understanding as we already have, and by continuing, both can increase. ----------------------------------------- Nina. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47345 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 1:23pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth kelvin_lwin Hi Phil, > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > daily life. A few questions: 1) How do you know it's kusala and not miccha-sati? 2) How do you know if it's samma-sati with panna or not? 3) How do you know if it's not mana? - kel 47346 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noticing, and what next? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/7/05 3:02:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, By the way, Lodewijk says that he does not have much to say to your post you wrote before about the three trainings. He says, that he very well understands your points, that you have valid points. -------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for conveying that to me, and please send Lodewijk my very best! :-) ------------------------------------- As for me, I always appreciate it, as I said, that you go on inquiring what I see as the right conditions for satipatthana, a good reminder, hang on to these points. When reading your post to Ken H, I appreciate it that you see the disadvantage of ignorance. I think you see the benefit of understanding. Understanding also attachment. You write: < the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins.> But we read and hear so little about the details *how*. You said that while being aware of breath you notice more hardness, heat, etc. of breath. More than in daily life where you find many distractions. You speak about applying the three characteristics and D.O. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall speaking of *applying* them. It is my understanding and my belief that direct, detailed, and clear insight into these are the penultimate events that give entree to path & fruit. ---------------------------------------------- That is another step to be taken, but how does this follow? How do you personally see this? I do not think it could happen automatically, paññaa develops stage by stage. What is the step from mindfulness of breath to paññaa that realizes the three characteristics? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not qualified to discuss any of these matters in detail. I do believe, based on the limited and relatively poor personal experience I have had in following the Buddha's practice teachings, including study, contemplation, sila, guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness, and secluded and concentrated meditation, that these provide a natural development of wisdom and relinquishment. I leave the details of that development to others. If I am fortunate, I will see the development occur within my own mindstream, and then I will know the details directly. -------------------------------------------------- Do you think it necesary to attain jhana first? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what it is that is supposed to require or not require jhanas. I believe that a great deal of "progress" is possible without jhanic attainments, but that more advanced insights and the ariyan stages at least those above stream entry do require jhana. This, of course, is just my opinion. ------------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47347 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:47am Subject: Cetasikas or Citta on stage manifesting the other? ksheri3 NOW PLAYING: that stage show from Desperately Seeking Susan. Or was it Cabaret? Hi Egbert, Cool man. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > > Oh, I see, when you say "now where were we" I take it that I'm the > > platinum blonde on the casting couch and you're the Niles or Frazier > > type that resembles the meglamania which possesses the middle- class > > and the ABSOLUTE NEEDS of the mechanics, greese monkeys, called > > psychiatrists or psychologists. Okay I'll bite, nibble at this bait > > only to tempt your senses all the more with the meal that you > believe yourself will be reeling in for the pleasure of the group you > are a part of, see the proper definition of an orgy by/for Caligula. > It could be a Bacchanalian orgy since I've been known to get lossed in > > that x-tian orgy called Carnivale or Mardi Gras. ;)) ============================================= > > A very nice paragraph indeed, rich in all sorts of wonderful allusions > and metaphors. Unfortunately, when I wrote "now where were we" I was > only referring to the fact that I had already partially replied to > you. Sorry, not meaning to rain on your parade :-) colette: Oh dear me, a Golden Shower is always welcomed during Carnivale or Mardis Gras. :-o ----------------- > > > colette: I have just been sitting here reading The Stream of > > Consciousness by William James: > > > > "How comes it about that a man reading something aloud for the first > > time is ables immediately to emphasize all his words aright, unless > > from the very first he have a sense of at least the form of the > > sentence yet to come, whichsense is fused with his consciousness of > > the present word, and modifies its emphasis in his mind so as to make > > him give it the proper accent as he utters it?" > > > > Here I'm representing that the quantity of experience has made the > > impression on the mind where the experience of the sense has been > > categorized and is ready to be accessed as a person accesses their > > computer files. > > > > Statement Vanquished, Points Colette, Advantage Colette. ;)) > > ---------------- > I'm happy to concede the point, the match, the trophy even :-). > But.... before one can read one has to learn to read. And before one > can count one has to learn to count. In the context of evolution, it > may take millions of years for sentient beings to develop the art of > counting. And in societies of sentient beings that have developed > counting, it still takes years for a newborn to learn that black art. > The point of all the above is that it is millions of years of > evolution and years of learning within a cultural context that are > speaking when it is said that at the most fundamental level there is > only one experience at a time. colette: Now I see what you're speaking of. Let me have my say here. the above statement is designed to focus the student's, aspirant's, mind since the stream of consciousness is like a raging river torrent, white water. I'm reminded of that most important of quotes in one of societies most well loved depictions of reality on the screen, obsuration: "Charlie Don't Surf" now was that before or after the quote "I love the smell of nepalm in the morning"? It is a given that the mind is a raging torrent of thoughts that are disjointed and hodge-podged together. I was specifically going to make such statements to Nina today since it is her piece I'm reading on Cetasikas right now. In her paper, "Introduction" p.2, "The cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetaqsikas arise each moment and then they fall away immediately." I can tentatively accept that however, in the mind, there must be a residue, something left behind after the citta has fallen since it is the citta's cesation that causes the cesation of the cetasika. just as a people trampsing about in the jungle leave behind a mark of their presence so too must the cetasika remain in some form, in the mind. The aspirant which continually focuses on the subject as an object then returns to that path over and over again where the citta is substantiated! We can compare the ruts of the wagon wheels that are still in existance today as the American West was being populated. The trail existed but because it was returned to and traversed by many others, the marks or trail were created and left behind. See Beatten Path. So I've just created a schism between the Citta and Cetasika since I've gone and made it clear that something of the cetasika must remain and not cease as is the common belief in the cessation of the citta and it's supporting cetasikas. Here I've gotta ask does the citta support the cetasika since, using the model of the emporer that is supported by his servants, I've shown that the emporer and his imperial family are transient however the servants or cetasikas are more permanent than the emporer. Nibbana may at times be a realization of the Citta but the Citta is not Nibbana -- there is still a deeper meaning to Nibbana than just realizing the truth of the Citta. ---------------------- And it is also millions of years of > evolution and years of learning within another cultural context > speaking when it is said that the first statement is quite confused. > > There is experience way before there is counting. Having learnt to > count it is easy to believe that's what's actually happening. Having > learnt to count it is pretty damn hard to stop counting. colette: YES, it is pretty damn hard to stop once the rituals of counting are learned and internalized. This is lust for result however and is an entirely different subject than what we are discussing here. It is more of a Varjayana or Kundalini, or Rosicrucian, et al form and function aspect of ritual therefore lets just build the foundation or diasecting the foundation as a good Mason would do. ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- But when you > manage it, there's not a quantity in sight, not anywhere :-) colette: oh you devil you! you've gone and brought into play the use of sight here and now. Okay, I'll bit but I do not have time. I will be happy to discuss the rationale of the ability Money has to talk with certain mental patients, at another time. toodles, colette 47348 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Howard, Here we go again, discussing sensitive issues that could possibly cause flare-ups. But I think we're getting better at it. :-) -------------------- KH: > > The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. ............. H: > Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the weakening of defilements. ------------------- Thanks for agreeing, but I see the differences in our opinions creeping in already. By "clear and calm examination" I think you are referring to something to *do*. As you know, I don't see the Dhamma as prescribing anything to do. When right understanding has been acquired, what has to be done will be done - by conditions. -------------------------------- H:> A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a drop, there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at first, the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. -------------------------------- I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but yours is not quite the way I see it. Firstly, I think ignorant people do care about having too much attachment (to sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, for example). No matter how bad their suffering, however, they don't genuinely turn to the Buddha's Dhamma. They might be attracted to Buddhism for the wrong reasons, but I don't think that beings them any closer to the true Dhamma. (I could be wrong, of course.) ---------------------- <. . .> H: > in the extreme case of taking meditation per se, independent of how it is approached, as rite and ritual one, and dismissing it, one is being led by prejudice instead of by the Dhamma. So, care is needed in what are considered to be rites and rituals. ----------------------- Yes, prejudice can enter into it: sometimes I argue for the sake of argument and to score points. But sometimes, I genuinely have to disagree because the way I understand the Dhamma is totally inconsistent with the idea of formal practice. --------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > It certainly isn't common, but it is most certainly within sight for many. But you are quite right in saying that it requires more than just a little right effort. Except for those who already have a great propensity for it, due, I suppose, to considerable past cultivation, what is required is significant and very extensive and consistent practice over a long period of time. ---------------------------------------- Again, we don't entirely agree. The way you put it suggests practice of a kind of that does not come naturally. A person with just a little wisdom should not (for example) give up his worldly goods and live the life of a homeless beggar at the roots of trees and in deserted cemeteries. That will get him nowhere. In fact it will get him worse then nowhere - he will be following a path of wrong understanding. Then, of course, I take it further by saying that *anything* done with the idea of gaining something for oneself (even gaining something wholesome) is done for the wrong reason. ----------------------- KH: > > IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. .......... Howard: > How would you know, Ken? What is it that you can base your humble opinion on? ;-) ------------------------ As I have since explained to Evan, I base it on the decline of the sasana as predicted in the texts. -------------- KH: > > I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: > Ken, are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? ------------------------------------------- This reminds me of how the flood is crossed not by striving (e.g., wanting detachment) and not by standing still (not wanting detachment). The middle way becomes clearer when we realise there are only dhammas. ---------------- Howard: > C'mon, Ken. Don't go overboard. He isn't slandering anyone, let alone the Buddha! ---------------- It was a bit overboard to use the word 'slander.' I was referring to a sutta Mike has quoted once or twice, which says a person slanders the Buddha if he says, "This sutta needs no further explanation," if, in fact, that sutta does need further explanation. In my opinion, Ajahn Brahm was confusing concepts of realities with conventional concepts - as if they needed no further explanation. --------------------- H: > Some might think it is mischievous to counsel against making right effort. ---------------------- And they would be right, of course. To counsel against making right effort would be like saying, "The flood is crossed by standing still." It would be far better to counsel, "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are without self." ----------------------- KH: > > The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. ............ Howard: > I consider this to be a serious instance of hopelessness and wrong view that ignores 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. (I don't know what you mean by "at will", but without cetana, there is no Dhamma practice.) -------------------------------------- What I meant by, "at will," was, "as if dhammas were not conditioned." Your last statement doesn't help us much because cetana arises with every moment of consciousness. Ken H 47349 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Frank, Thanks for your reply. --------------------- F: > Um, I'm almost speechless. Sometimes Buddhists write things that are so astounding I really don't know what to say. --------------------- I know how you feel, Frank. One day, while reading an article on Access To Insight, I suddenly realised what Ven. Thanissaro was saying. After recovering from my "almost speechless" state, I wrote a series of posts to DSG. My main concern was that people, new to Buddhism, would read certain articles on that well-known internet site and come away with a horribly distorted view of the Buddha's teaching. I urged DSG members to warn any such newcomers. You have recently written a glowing report on Wat Metta and the teachings of V. Thanissaro, so I know you and I are looking at the Dhamma from two totally different perspectives. We are bound to be speechless from time to time. :-) On DSG and elsewhere, there are Dhamma students who prefer to put the anatta doctrine aside until they have progressed further along the Path. These are the people I am used to arguing with - urging them to consider anatta first and foremost. But then there is this breakaway group who tell us that anatta is not really true. (!!!) They say it is a fictitious device used by meditators to calm the mind and free it from "stress." I don't know how to communicate with those people. I certainly got nowhere with Victor. --------------------- <. . .> F: > Those of you on the list who view jhana as extremely difficult, how do you know? How many years of schooling and training did it take you to become competent to practice your chosen profession? How much time did you actually commit to attain proficiency in jhana? If someone were to go into a 1 year, or even a 3 month solitary retreat, emerged totally defeated and demoralized, I might understand how one could come to the conclusion that jhana is very difficult or impossible. But who here has made that effort? Exactly what personal experience is it that qualifies you to assert that jhana is nearly impossible to attain? ------------------ To quote some well-known wisdom: If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. You are what you are. The Buddha did not teach us to want reality to be something it is not. He taught us to know the present reality as it truly is. Nothing more! Ken H 47350 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/7/05 5:19:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Here we go again, discussing sensitive issues that could possibly cause flare-ups. But I think we're getting better at it. :-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, I kind of think so too! :-) --------------------------------- -------------------- KH: > > The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. ............. H: > Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the weakening of defilements. ------------------- Thanks for agreeing, but I see the differences in our opinions creeping in already. By "clear and calm examination" I think you are referring to something to *do*. As you know, I don't see the Dhamma as prescribing anything to do. When right understanding has been acquired, what has to be done will be done - by conditions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, gee, I sure hope that right understanding gets acquired ... somehow. :-) ---------------------------------------- -------------------------------- H:> A basic aim of Dhamma practice, with meditation being just a part of that, is to uproot attachment and the propensity to it. When one is really ignorant, there is no caring about being attached. When someone has awakened a drop, there is the realization that attachment is akusala and a central cause of suffering; s/he then desires its ending starts to act to achieve that; at first, the approach taken is one of force, and that is to no avail, but when one is fortunate enough to have seriously encountered the Dhamma and some of the more gross ignorance has subsided, the approach becomes more of a subtle technique of cultivating the mind's clarity and insight, and progress begins. -------------------------------- I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing, but yours is not quite the way I see it. Firstly, I think ignorant people do care about having too much attachment (to sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, for example). ------------------------------------ Howard: Note that I said "really ignorant". By that I meant abysmally ignorant! (I don't want to argue either!) ---------------------------------- No matter how bad their suffering, however, they don't genuinely turn to the Buddha's Dhamma. They might be attracted to Buddhism for the wrong reasons, but I don't think that beings them any closer to the true Dhamma. (I could be wrong, of course.) ---------------------- <. . .> H: > in the extreme case of taking meditation per se, independent of how it is approached, as rite and ritual one, and dismissing it, one is being led by prejudice instead of by the Dhamma. So, care is needed in what are considered to be rites and rituals. ----------------------- Yes, prejudice can enter into it: sometimes I argue for the sake of argument and to score points. But sometimes, I genuinely have to disagree because the way I understand the Dhamma is totally inconsistent with the idea of formal practice. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Well, we disagree on this, unless I just don't get what you mean by "formal practice". -------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > It certainly isn't common, but it is most certainly within sight for many. But you are quite right in saying that it requires more than just a little right effort. Except for those who already have a great propensity for it, due, I suppose, to considerable past cultivation, what is required is significant and very extensive and consistent practice over a long period of time. ---------------------------------------- Again, we don't entirely agree. The way you put it suggests practice of a kind of that does not come naturally. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I assure you that the practice needed for "entering" jhanas does not come naturally. In fact, the Dhamma doesn't come naturally at all. It goes against the stream, against the flow, against the grain. What comes "naturally" for the most part is following our cravings, being led around by the nose by the defilements. -------------------------------------------- A person with just a little wisdom should not (for example) give up his worldly goods and live the life of a homeless beggar at the roots of trees and in deserted cemeteries. That will get him nowhere. In fact it will get him worse then nowhere - he will be following a path of wrong understanding. --------------------------------------------- Howard: So, are you advocating that nobody except adepts should go forth, for example? -------------------------------------------- Then, of course, I take it further by saying that *anything* done with the idea of gaining something for oneself (even gaining something wholesome) is done for the wrong reason. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So don't eat, Ken, don't sleep, and don't take medicine. ;-) Oh, yes - also don't work. ---------------------------------------------- ----------------------- KH: > > IMHO, no one practises the true jhanas today. .......... Howard: > How would you know, Ken? What is it that you can base your humble opinion on? ;-) ------------------------ As I have since explained to Evan, I base it on the decline of the sasana as predicted in the texts. -------------- KH: > > I think the message of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries is that detachment is a paramattha dhamma. It is not "my" detachment - "I" am not detached. And so, at DSG, the emphasis is on studying and understanding detachment (along with other dhammas) rather than on wanting to have it. ------------------------------------------- Howard: > Ken, are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? ------------------------------------------- This reminds me of how the flood is crossed not by striving (e.g., wanting detachment) and not by standing still (not wanting detachment). The middle way becomes clearer when we realise there are only dhammas. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. But my question remains: Are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? -------------------------------------------- ---------------- Howard: > C'mon, Ken. Don't go overboard. He isn't slandering anyone, let alone the Buddha! ---------------- It was a bit overboard to use the word 'slander.' I was referring to a sutta Mike has quoted once or twice, which says a person slanders the Buddha if he says, "This sutta needs no further explanation," if, in fact, that sutta does need further explanation. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Good. I'm pleased that you are backing off a bit on this. ------------------------------------------ In my opinion, Ajahn Brahm was confusing concepts of realities with conventional concepts - as if they needed no further explanation. --------------------- H: > Some might think it is mischievous to counsel against making right effort. ---------------------- And they would be right, of course. To counsel against making right effort would be like saying, "The flood is crossed by standing still." It would be far better to counsel, "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are without self." --------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, mmm. I'm so glad you said that, because now I'm liberated! ;-) --------------------------------- ----------------------- KH: > > The belief that dana, sila and bhavana can be practised (or not practised) at will is the worst form of wrong view. It is a denial of conditionality. ............ Howard: > I consider this to be a serious instance of hopelessness and wrong view that ignores 45 years of teaching by the Buddha. (I don't know what you mean by "at will", but without cetana, there is no Dhamma practice.) -------------------------------------- What I meant by, "at will," was, "as if dhammas were not conditioned." ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course they are conditioned! As the song lyric goes: "Nothing come from nothing, nothing ever will." And that includes awakening. --------------------------------------- Your last statement doesn't help us much because cetana arises with every moment of consciousness. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Whether Abhidhamma is correct in that or not, do you consider it irrelevant what the *nature* of that cetana is? Not all volition is the same. Not all is kusala/useful/wholesome. Some volition bears bitter fruit. Are you not aware of volition arising in your mind and the nature of it?. Can you not guard the mind as the Buddha instructed us to do? (These last two questions are rhetorical: I know you *are* aware, and I know you *can* guard the mind.) ------------------------------------------- Ken H ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47351 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet HI Kel Excellent questions that I will jot down and ask myself now and then. Ph: > > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > > daily life. > 1) How do you know it's kusala and not miccha-sati? > 2) How do you know if it's samma-sati with panna or not? > 3) How do you know if it's not mana? I should say as I posted elsewhere that I have no expectactions or make no claims whatsoever about sati. My current concern lies with something much more primitive - dealing with moral transgression. So it is easier to me to both identify and feel confident about progress in that area. I feel even reading and reflecting on suttas can be sufficient condition to steer us clear of certain transgresssions, through there are other conditions at work that will remind us that we cannot be sure that there will not be akusala kamma pattha, not by any means. So when I say "confidence in kusala" it is not with respect to sati, not yet. So thanks, you pointed out that I was just gassing, as usual. Gassing with right intellectual knowledge, perhaps, but nothing more than that. It's not a bad idea for beginners to repeat what they've learned - it reinforces their intellectual understanding - but I should always make it clear that I don't *really* know what I'm talking about, from experience. I think people who read my posts regularly know that, but thanks for the reminder. I guess the answer to the second question above is that panna itself, if developed, will know, or it won't know. There's no easy answer. There can be forms of sati at the level of sila and dana that aren't accompanied by panna, I think I've learned. Perhaps it is best to understand them first, and have no expectations about panna. Perhaps. I hope all beginners will be aware that just being aware of one's posture is not sati with panna. The internet has made the satipatthana sutta available to the whole wide world and it is attractive to read "when he walks he knows he is walking" and think that there is wisdom at work. As for the third question, there is always mana mixed in with everything we do related to Dhamma, as with everything in life, I'm sure - we are worldlings. Mana is translated as conceit, but it refers to all forms of comparing ourselves to others. I think even sotapannas still have some mana, don't they? (I wouldn't have thought they do, but I'm pretty sure I learned that they do.) I would say mana is one of the forms of akusala we shouldn't worry about too much - it is inevitable for worldlings. Worrying about it would just be more akusala. Perhaps we can be aware of it now and then and perhaps that will condition movement away from it. As for the first question, I don't know. It certainly is a good thing to keep thinking about. For all of us. Thanks. Metta, Phil 47352 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Ken and Howard, Sorry for butting in. I agree that we are all getting better and better at discussing sensitive issues. A small contribution from me which is not intended as fuel for any fire :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Here we go again, discussing sensitive issues that could possibly > cause flare-ups. But I think we're getting better at it. :-) > > -------------------- > KH: > > The point being made on DSG is not that we should try to get > rid of attachment. When attachment is present there is an opportunity > for panna (right understanding) to know it as it really is. > ............. > > H: > Yes, indeed! I completely agree. We need to see it clearly for > what it is, and, if possible, encounter it calmly, without upset or > aversion. The process of clear and calm examination is central to the > weakening of defilements. > ------------------- > > Thanks for agreeing, but I see the differences in our opinions > creeping in already. By "clear and calm examination" I think you are > referring to something to *do*. As you know, I don't see the Dhamma > as prescribing anything to do. When right understanding has been > acquired, what has to be done will be done - by conditions. > === Herman > I think a possible outcome of hearing the teachings on dependent origination is to stir awareness in the receptive that something is being *done* all the time there is time, so to speak. And that it is ignorance of that fact that fuels the cycle to go on infinitely. I do not think that right understanding or right effort occur without some awareness that they occur. When they occur they may well be accompanied by thoughts of a *doing*. This is immaterial in itself. What can also occur, of course, is that the thoughts of this doing are accompanied by the thought "Oh my gawd, this is wrong understanding" and a concerted (wrong) effort is applied to thwart the germinating seed from developing. Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. Which implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're doing. Kind Regards Herman 47353 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/7/05 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it's not so much "if you don't *like* what's going on", I believe, but, instead, more a matter of "if you see that what's going on isn't useful". ------------------------------------------ Which implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're doing. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Uh, I'm confused, Herman. First of all, I don't get your point. One should not necessarily keep on doing the same thing if you like what is happening, because while you may like it, it may, in fact, be harmful to you or others. But also, Herman, on a technical point, it happens that the 1st does not actually logically imply the 2nd. The 1st, as you stated it, is of the form ~L --> D ("If not L, then D"), and the 2nd is a sentence of the form L --> ~D ("If L, the not D"). But that 2nd is definitely not a logical consequence of the 1st. What does logically follow from the 1st is ~D --> L . The logic you were using is actually invalid. Another example of the same invalid reasoning would be the argument: "If you don't love your spouse, you need to get a divorce", therefore "If you do love your spouse, you don't need to get a divorce". Can you see why that is invalid? Even if you love your spouse, you still might need to get a divorce for *another* reason (such as s/he will be killed otherwise). Likewise, in the primary example, even if you do like what's going on, you might still need to do something different for *another* reason. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47354 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 7:16pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Howard, Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my logic. You are quite correct. Some more below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/7/05 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > > Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one > thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you > don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it's not so much "if you don't *like* what's going on", I believe, > but, instead, more a matter of "if you see that what's going on isn't useful". > ------------------------------------------ > Which > implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're > doing. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Uh, I'm confused, Herman. First of all, I don't get your point. One > should not necessarily keep on doing the same thing if you like what is happening, > because while you may like it, it may, in fact, be harmful to you or others. == I agree with you. I was trying to avoid having to take a stand on whether the Buddha's teaching is prescriptive or not. A sutta comes to mind, and it will be a poorly memorised rendition. The Buddha is asked why some who have heard the teachings "cross over" and others who have heard the same teachings do not. His answer does not involve the "right accumulations" (which is the panacea of convenience), but involves whether what is heard is put into practice. In this regard, the Buddha is not prescriptive. He does not say "you should do this or that". He does say "if you want to achieve this goal, do this and that" and leaves it to the hearer what they do with it. Kind Regards Herman > But also, Herman, on a technical point, it happens that the 1st does not > actually logically imply the 2nd. The 1st, as you stated it, is of the form ~L > --> D ("If not L, then D"), and the 2nd is a sentence of the form L --> ~D > ("If L, the not D"). But that 2nd is definitely not a logical consequence of the > 1st. What does logically follow from the 1st is ~D --> L . The logic you were > using is actually invalid. Another example of the same invalid reasoning > would be the argument: "If you don't love your spouse, you need to get a divorce", > therefore "If you do love your spouse, you don't need to get a divorce". Can > you see why that is invalid? Even if you love your spouse, you still might > need to get a divorce for *another* reason (such as s/he will be killed > otherwise). Likewise, in the primary example, even if you do like what's going on, you > might still need to do something different for *another* reason. > > With metta, > Howard > 47355 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/7/05 10:16:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my logic. You are quite correct. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the ready acceptance! You are very much without ego - seriously, and I think that's wonderful!! :-) ---------------------------------------------- Some more below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/7/05 8:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > > Whether the Buddha is or is not prescriptive in his teachings is one > thing, but it is fairly obvious to me that he does teach that if you > don't like what's going on, you've gotta do something different. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it's not so much "if you don't *like* what's going on", I believe, > but, instead, more a matter of "if you see that what's going on isn't useful". > ------------------------------------------ > Which > implies that if you like what's going on, just keep doing what you're > doing. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Uh, I'm confused, Herman. First of all, I don't get your point. One > should not necessarily keep on doing the same thing if you like what is happening, > because while you may like it, it may, in fact, be harmful to you or others. == I agree with you. I was trying to avoid having to take a stand on whether the Buddha's teaching is prescriptive or not. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ah, I see. :-) Well, please don't avoid taking a stance. Of *course* his teachings were prescriptive!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- A sutta comes to mind, and it will be a poorly memorised rendition. The Buddha is asked why some who have heard the teachings "cross over" and others who have heard the same teachings do not. His answer does not involve the "right accumulations" (which is the panacea of convenience), but involves whether what is heard is put into practice. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! I do hope you can find the sutta. I'll have it bronzed and placed on my wall!! ------------------------------------------------- In this regard, the Buddha is not prescriptive. He does not say "you should do this or that". He does say "if you want to achieve this goal, do this and that" and leaves it to the hearer what they do with it. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Hah! No prescription! ;-) Anyone who wouldn't understand the prescription he was dispensing had just too much dust in his eyes to bother with! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47356 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Any Kind ... !!! / Susima Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - I would like to resply to your message #47272, relating to the Susima Sutta and the commentary by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening". [Thanissaro Bhikkhu] ----------------------------------------- Sarah: I agree that if one reads the sutta alone, that it's possible for some, like B.T. to read it with the interptetation he does. However, if one reads it in the light of its commentary especially or Abhidhamma (or possibly even other suttas), I think it's impossible to read it this way as suggesting jhanas must be attained first. So it may come down to whether we give our own interpretations or those of the ancient commentators more credence, don't you think? Tep: Whether you prefer to read the sutta one way or another, it seems that the same question on jhana always arises -- Is it true at least that the first jhana is necessary for developing insights leading to summa- vimutti? I remember reading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's commentary that answers the above question. The following Web address should be searched. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#j ---------------------------------------- Sarah: Samatha-vipassana are yoked together, as I understand, at the vipassana nanas. There is samatha (calm) with each moment of kusala. Pehaps you are referring to jhana attainment or samatha development at least in your comments above? Tep: There are several levels of calm (or serenity), and there are several levels of kusala. As I understand, samatha is the consequence of citta establishing unity (ekatta) and is purified from hindrances -- in other words, the meditator is developing concentration <"The unity consisting in establishing the sign of serenity belongs to those devoted to the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta anuyutta)."> Cognizance (citta) is then free from distraction. Then various kinds of insight knowledge arise, such as the thirteen knowledges of cleansing (see the Breathing Meditation series). As Ven. Sariputta stated, "cognizance arrived at unity enters into purification of the way (cleansing knowledge #11), is intensified in equanimity(cleansing knowledge #12), and is satisfied by knowledge(nana sama-pahansita) which is the cleansing knowledge #13. From this point onward, the four rupa jhanas all the way through the principal insights and the four ariya- maggas can be realized (see paragraphs 19 - 168, Breathing Treatise). So, a short answer to your question above is an emphatic "yes". Thank you for asking the two important questions. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I've hesitated about continuing this thread, but a few comments perhaps... > ... 47357 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 7, 2005 8:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion lbidd2 Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". Hi Sarah, I prefer the description consciousness is a reflection of an object as experience; in Howard's lingo "presencing". However, this only applies to 5-door consciousness or a wisdom consciousness. In no way does a consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness rooted in greed is the experience of greed, not some object. I believe that is standard satipatthana. As for the object of greed, a careful reading of the 'craving' section on dependent origination in Vism. (Vism.XII,233 fol.) shows that craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. It is my contention that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of desire. We can say dependent on contact feeling arises and dependent on feeling, craving; but what I am trying to get at is what we "think of" as the object of desire, what we say we want or like, is a conceptualization of the formation of visible object, feeling, latent tendency and probably many other factors as well. It is good to know that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like arises conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes something is logic, not reality. Larry 47358 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:01am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 243 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] It is difficult to know exactly when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. We may take for calm what is actually akusala. If someone wants to develop samatha, the calm which is wholesome, he has to know very precisely when the citta is kusala and when it is akusala. Thus, samatha cannot be developed without right understanding. Understanding knows when the citta is peaceful in the wholesome way and when the citta is clinging to quietness and thus akusala. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47359 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations nilovg Hi Colette, op 07-07-2005 20:47 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: In her paper, "Introduction" p.2, "The > cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment > of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas arise each moment > and then they fall away immediately." I can tentatively accept that > however, in the mind, there must be a residue, something left behind > after the citta has fallen since it is the citta's cessation that > causes the cessation of the cetasika. ------- N: Each citta with its accompanying cetasikas arises, experience an object and then fall away together. Each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next citta, without there being an interval. This goes on throughout life and from life to life. Seeing is one citta, and thinking about what is seen is another one, hearing is one citta and thinking about what is heard is another citta. It seems that we can see and hear at the same time, but in fact only one citta arises at a time and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the same time, and this shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. You entered this world with certain tendencies, abilities, inclinations, different from other people. This was because you accumulated such tendencies in the past. Also in this life you react in a certain way to what you experience, but the citta and cetasikas fall away. Since each citta is succeeded by a next one such tendencies are carried on to the next citta, and so on, even from life to life. You remember former experiences, though these have fallen away. This is because the remembrance of these experiences is carried on from one citta to the next. What we learn is never lost, it is accumulated in the citta. Wholesome tendencies and unwholesome tendencies are accumulated and these condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta. We speak in conventional language about different characters, but in reality these are accumulated tendencies in each citta. It is not a residu that stays the same, it is subject to change. New experiences and tendencies are accumulated at each moment. That is why understanding can grow and even develop to supramundane paññaa. Nina. 47360 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:50am Subject: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned dhamma. There is no man, woman, human being, deva in ultimate sense. There is no person in ultimate sense. Ultimate realities are not difficult to see and equally they are hard to see. This will depend on individual. To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these instructions are not fully understood and there always are misinterpretations. Here is a good material to explore what insturctions were and what were not. There is no person in all these materials. Dhamma-lover will love Dhamma and they will live life according to Dhamma. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ''Commentaries on certain online materials of anapanasati: Someone wrote: Introduction This booklet is written to beginner meditators as well as for those who are more practiced in meditation. The author is taking the instructions given in the oldest of the original discourses [suttas] still in existence today. [ commentor: I am thinking whether this means original teachings in Pali, which are The Buddha's words or just quoting on translated materials and just self-investigating on translated materials.] They may seem a little different from other instructions that you have been given or read in the past. But, rest assured, these instructions are what the Buddha taught over 2500 years ago. These instructions include 'The Four Foundations of Mindfulness' (in Pali this is called Satipatthana), that is Mindfulness of the Body, Mindfulness of Feeling, Mindfulness of Mind, and Mindfulness of Dhammas. [Commentor: As these are translated materials they may be a bit different from the original ones. Example is that 'mind' is not exactly what westerners know as 'mind'. And 'body' is not the 'body' in lay people understanding.] By practicing these meditation instructions given by the Buddha in this sutta, the meditator will naturally experience the meditation stages called Jhana (This is a Pali word that means a level or stage of meditation). [Commentor: Jhaana is a Pali word. It has a specific meaning. Not all those who follow the instructions will achieve jhaana because mahaasatipatthaana sutta is not for jhaana achievement. There is distinction between jhaana and magga.] According to the original teaches of the Buddha, the 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness' and 'The Mindfulness of Breathing' suttas are intimately intertwined and dependent on each other. So, when the meditator practices in this way, can then gain the insight, wisdom, tranquility and equanimity needed to experience the ultimate goal of awakening called Nibbana. What is meditation? Meditation is one of those kinds of words that we all hear and it seems to have different meanings for different people. When asked, some people may practice meditation but, they can't explain exactly what it is they do. So here is a definition of meditation that agrees with the Buddha's instructions. Meditation is the skill in watching "how" mind moves. [Commentor: This is the first place that goes wrong and lead to misunderstanding or wrong view or micchaa-ditthi. Because the word that should have proper meaning are defined in the poorest way. Actually meditation itself is not the right word for Buddhists' practice. Because all other religions do have meditation. But in Buddhism there always is understanding and wisdom while meditating. This means there must not be any wrong view.] By this I mean, when mind is very happy, peaceful and calm then all of a sudden something happens and mind becomes sad, or anxious, or angry, "How" did that happen? [Commentor: The Buddha already described in mahaasatipatthaana sutta regarding different mind state and how to recognize them and how to discern them in proper way and in wise attention.] "How" did mind move from the happiness, peacefulness and calm to becoming sad, anxious or angry? Meditation is being able to watch how this happens, and then "how" to let go, without getting sad, anxious, or angry. Meditation is the art of observation and relaxing. [commentor: Meditation is not something that is watching. If someone believes that someone is watching something in order to develop calmness or in order to develop wisdom then there already arise ditthi or wrong view. That is the idea of self or self-identity. This is ditthi. Ditthi does not arise with panna.] Commentaries The instructions given here may seem different from what may be taught elsewhere. The reason is that over the years many scholars have written about meditation. These writings are called commentaries. [Commentor: This is where wrong assumption is made. Commentaries were by Sariputta, Moggallaana and other great arahats and elders. They are not modern ones as one thinks as 'many scholars'.] These commentaries are often written by people who have never practiced meditation, but have studied exclusively. [Commentor: I think this is a personal belief of the writer.] They didn't write about their own direct experiential knowledge from practicing meditation, but would talk to people who practiced many different types of meditation and copied what was reported to them. These commentaries may have been very convincing to the scholars, but when anyone compares them against what is taught in the original texts, [Commentor: I do not think this means 'original Pali instructions'.] ..they can see a very big difference in the instructions. Sometimes the commentaries completely leave out whole sections of the instructions and sometimes they just go out on their own and add what another style of meditation they think works, then gives them as the proper instructions, as if they were given from the Buddha. [Commentor: I would like to see what is what regarding these 'the proper instructions'.] Please understand that all styles of meditation are of real benefit to anyone who practices regularly. [Commentor: If someone regularly practises wrong method then this will lead to wrong ending.] But consider that just like looking at a map, all roads don't lead to the same place. (there are many different roads that may be taken, but they may not get to the desired destination.) In the same way, when we go back to the discourses given by the Buddha there is a map that leads directly to the cessation of all suffering, when we follow it closely. [Commentor: Similies are for comparative thinking and not to be equated.] This is the reason that the author has taken the time and energy to go back to the original discourses [suttas] to understand and practice meditation in the way that was originally taught. Which was painstakingly researched by direct experience and studied for many, many years. [Commentor: I am thinking whether Pali and real teachings are painstaking researched and learned or not.] Psychotherapy and Buddhist Meditation Western psychology and psychotherapy differs from Buddhist meditation and awareness in very subtle but obvious ways. This is not to say that western psychology and psychotherapy are wrong and Buddhist meditation is right. They both have their advantages and uses but the end results are quite different. The roads on the map are different and lead to different results. Western psychology and psychotherapy takes a person suffering from mental imbalances and shows them how to live in a more balanced way. Buddhist meditation takes a mentally balanced person and shows them how to be fully awake, truly happy and free from all suffering. Psychology and psychotherapy deals entirely with thoughts and feelings, then spends time analyzing them. The therapist helps the client to get involved with the identification and content of the feelings or emotions. This is when the psychologist talks about making the "ego" healthy. Whereas, in Buddhism we learn to see how the experiences we have are nothing more than an ever-changing "process" (called dependent origination). We learn that getting involved with these thoughts and feelings personally, or taking them to be "me or mine", is the cause of great unhappiness and suffering. The ultimate goal of the Buddha's teachings is to show us how to let go of any ideas about there being a permanent "self or ego" that controls everything. The Buddhist meditator learns to see all things in life as being simply part of a "process" (dependent origination) that is ever-changing (anicca), painful (dukkha) and impersonal (anatta). [Commentor: All these go beyond the sutta and they seem trying to explain psychology and psychotherapy. And also 'impersonal' the word does not explain 'anatta' in its fullest sense. Examples are mechanisms. Mechanisms are impersonal. But again these mechanisms are also anatta. So 'impersonal' does not equate and does not explain 'anatta'.] Why versus How The goals of western psychology and psychotherapy and Buddhist meditation work at solving the human conditions of suffering, but they are quite unique and have extremely different end results. They both teach a person to become more aware of thoughts and feelings, but as you can see their perspectives are quite different. [Commentor: Again these go on over psychology and psychotherapy. This is bryond sutta.] In other words, western psychology and psychotherapy places its focus on observing past experiences and analyzes these experiences to find out "WHY" it occurred. Then it shows a person how to live a healthy life by dealing with these past occurrences. The therapist helps to teach an unbalanced person to experience life in a more balanced or regular way. Buddhism, on the other hand, puts its focus on observing experience and seeing "how" the whole process of experience occurs through seeing dependent origination and teaches us to understand that it is an impersonal evolution. [Commetor: Again this is continuation of discussion on psychology and psychotherapy. unbalanced and imbalance are not the same word. I do not know whether 'aanaapaanasati sutta'preaches dependent origination or not. But here what I see is 'Dependent Origination' is delibrately inserted.] The key to Buddhist teachings deals with "HOW" this process works. Whereas, western psychology deals with "why" these things come up. Which is dealing mostly with concepts and the reasons for their appearing. Buddhism shows how to develop our mind with pure, coherent awareness and observation of every process (experience) as it arises and teaches us to understand how to see more clearly. This is dealing directly with the reality of observing exactly "how" things arise in the present moment. So the Buddha's teachings are seen only as an impersonal process and not to falsely identify with or get overly involved with this process by thinking about it. The Buddha teaches us to see this whole experience and let go, relax, then gently re- direct our attention back to the breath and relaxing, without getting involved with and wrongly identifying with the content of those thoughts and feelings. [Commentor: I did not find 'let go' 'relax' 'gently redirect' in aanaapaanasati sutta.] Or we could say, we learn to see everything as an impersonal experience to be seen, not to get involved with or take this process as being a personal self or ego. [Commentor: When communication is going on the word like 'impersonal experience' 'personal experience' etc are confusing.] These two different types of perspective have different goals and objectives. Their separate approaches can bring happiness and balance into our life. The Buddhist approach tends to go beyond ordinary types of awareness and it leads us to see how to let go of all ego- identification so we can truly see and experience the ultimate goal, which is the complete cessation of all suffering. When a person takes the time and energy to practice meditation in this way, they will begin to see and understand for themselves just why the Buddha's path is such an amazing way of experiencing the world around them. The Buddha proclaimed that "We are the Happy One's" . Doing the meditation that is written in this booklet, you will see why for yourself. Anapanasati Sutta [Commentor: This seems the start of aanaapaanasati sutta.] The actual instructions given in the discourse called "The Anapanasati Sutta" are only one paragraph long but the explanation will take a bit more space. These instructions are word for word, letter for letter repeated in other discourses [suttas] as well. For example, they are in the "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" [Satipatthana Sutta] and the "Mindfulness of the Body" [Kayagatasati Sutta] discourses as well, to name just a couple. As you read these instructions and give them a try, you will begin to see and understand how mind works, which is a very exciting and fun experience. [Commentor: The Buddha teachings are not fun-searching material. Teachings are for understandingof dhamma and for realization of dhamma. Excitement and fun are not for ecstatics and disciples. The teachings always say sabbe sankhaaraa dukkhaa. The Buddha did not say dhamma are for excitement or for fun.] Also, if you have practiced other styles of meditation, you will notice that things like headaches, vertigo, or ringing in the ears, won't occur anymore. This meditation practice is not only about sitting as still as a statue and doing a quiet type of meditation but it is very helpful in all daily activities that we have to do during our everyday lives. [Commentor: This is very wrong assumption. 'Sitting' 'statue' 'doing' 'a quiet type' etc etc are not true dhamma. Even this may lead to wrong view that sitting like a statue creates wisdom or liberate from dukkha or suffering.] Please follow these instructions as closely as possible for the best results and progress. [Commentor: Here 'best result' 'progress' indicate that someone is thinking that thereis a self and that self is sitting like a statue and checking 'the progress' and 'the best result'. All these are not right dhamma.] Also, it is best to do only one meditation at a time, because mind is fickle and will jump around when there are different types of meditation being practiced at the same time. It can become confusing as to which meditation to practice then the meditator tries doing one type and when it doesn't seem right the meditator jumps to another type of meditation, as a result, they wind up not doing any real meditation at all. So, please prepare yourself for a very pleasant journey to the cessation of suffering. Maha-Metta always, Signed & Address deleted. Dec.2003 Current Era - Dec. 2547 Buddhist Era -ooOoo- [Commentor: 'a very pleasant journey' seems like there is someone who is a self and that self is following'a very pleasant journey'. The Buddha did not applause 'self' or 'atta' at all. Ruupam bhikkhave anattaa..., Vedanaa bhikkhave anattaa.., Sannaa bhikkhave anattaa.., Sankhaara bhikkhave anattaa.., Vinnaanaa bhikkhave anattaa.., . The Buddha clearly said that there are anatta.] Meditation Instructions Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Samma Sambuddhassa There will be some Pali words introduced into this instruction and the author will try to make these words understandable in English for the readers. This discourse is taken from the "Anapanasati Sutta", 'Anapana' is a Pali word meaning in breathing and out breathing. 'Sati' means mindfulness, watchfulness or observation power. [Commentor: Sati is more than that. Sati is not just 'mindfulness'. Because thieves can be mindful when they are stealing money or properties.But they do not have sati even though they may have mindfulness not to be caught by owners or by police.] So, the meaning of "anapanasati" means watchfulness of the in breathing and out breathing. The Pali word "Sutta" means 'thread'. [Commentor: Su means 'hear'. Suta means 'heard'. Sutta means 'things to be heard'. Suttas are for disciples and when these disciples hear or when suttas are heard then these disciples can follow accordingly. Teachers do not need suttas. Because teachers teach suttas for others to hear.] So whenever we see the word 'sutta' it is another thread that is woven with other 'suttas' and together they make a very beautiful cloth of 'Dhamma' [many people use the Sanskrit word 'Dharma', instead. they have exactly the same meaning but the author prefers to use the Pali pronunciation] 'Dhamma' is another Pali word that has many different meanings some of which are truth, the way things are, the Buddha's teachings, the true nature of things, etc. This sutta [thread] is taken from the "The Anapanasati Sutta" and will be given in bold letters and underlined. There will be an explanation given in regular type after each section. [16] "And how, monks, is mindfulness of breathing developed and cultivated, so that it is of great fruit and great benefit? [Commentor: I do not know why the author wrote aanaapaanasati begins with 16.] [17] "Here a monk, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and establishes mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. These are the preparatory stages of the meditation. It basically means for the meditator to find a quiet place to sit with little or no distractions. Turn off the TV, radio or telephone and find a place that has very few noises which will pull you away from the sitting. For the beginning meditator noises can turn into a big distraction and can pull one's attention away from watching the breath and relaxing. [Commentor: Actually noise etc are also dhamma and when properly and wisely attended it is equally good wherever one stays.] After the meditator becomes more familiar with this practice, noises won't really be a bother anymore. They just become a part of the meditation practice. The next part says to sit with the legs folded crosswise. But the author has found that many people in this country are not used to sitting on the oor with their legs crossed. When they try, it can cause a lot of pain to arise. The meditator can sit on a cushion or if they prefer they can sit on a chair [as long as they don't lean into the back rest]. Some meditation teachers want their students to sit in what is called a "full or half lotus" position, but it really isn't necessary. There is no magic in sitting on the floor and twisting the legs into a pretzel. A comfortable sitting posture where the legs don't go to sleep is best. [Commentor: Bhavanaa or mental cultivation is the work of mind and nothing to do with posture. The most important thing is to be able to stay for a long time.] The reason that the Buddha recommended sitting on the floor is at the time he was alive they didn't use chairs, so everyone sat on the floor and they were used to it. [Commentor: This is self-assumption. Some sat on stone, some sat on log, some sit on bundle of grass and even The Buddha sat on the bundle of grass.] But, in our culture, we hardly ever sit on the oor, so our bodies are not used to it. Also, it may take quite a long time to become used to sitting on the oor in a comfortable way. It can even be a painful experience for a long time before the legs get limber enough to be comfortable. It is the meditator's choice whether they sit on the floor or not. When sitting in meditation it is best to sit with the back nicely straight, with one vertebrae stacked on the other. Please don't sit in a rigid way where the back is overly straight as this can cause unnecessary pain and back problems to arise. [Commentor: I think this is the author's advice rather than The Buddha's words in aanaapaanasati sutta. The Buddha already told that 'sit in erect'.] Contrary to what many people think, pain is not the point of the meditation and nothing is further from the truth. Watching mind move and seeing how it goes from one thing to another is what meditation is all about. Please sit with the legs in a comfortable position and have the back nicely straight. [Commentor: This contradict the Buddha's teaching. Pain has to be fought. Pain is contemplated. Pain is considered. 'Vedanaanupassii viharati' said the Buddha. When there arises sukha then there will not be any pain at all. Sukha is a part of jhaana or absorption. When pain cannot be overcome how will one be able to experience calm and tranquility?] Now is when the actual instructions begin. [18] "Breathing in long, he understands: 'I breathe in long'; or breathing out long, he understands: 'I breathe out long': Breathing in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short'; breathing out short, he understands: 'I breathe out short'. The key words here are "He understands", it doesn't say anything about placing your attention on the nostril tip or the abdomen. The instructions don't say to count the breaths, nor do they say anything about following the breath around in the body from the nostril tip to the throat to the lungs to the abdomen and back again. The instructions simply say to "understand" what the breath is doing in the present moment, They never mention focusing one's attention in any one place. All that these instructions say is the "He/she understands when they breathe in and out long or short. So where does one put their attention? The answer is 'One Understands' when breath is long or short, they understand when breath is fine or coarse, they understand when breath is fast or slow. In other words the meditator knows what the breath is doing in the present moment. [Commentor: This is the worst ever exists interpretation and translation. Breathing is just name or pannatti and nothing to do with understanding. There arise 'fullness' 'tenseness' when breathe in and 'flatness' 'laxity' when breathe out. Breathing in and out cause bodily movements. These movements are ruupa and they are to be discerned. When there are bodily movements there are sensation like 'heat' 'cold' 'hard' 'soft' 'tense' 'recoil' etc. These are real ruupa. Breathing is not ruupa. When there is ditthi or wrong-view there cannot arise any panna or wisdom at all.] The meditator doesn't need to focus on any one place or follow it from one place to another. They only have to understand the general characteristics of what the breath is doing. Let us continue on: He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body'; He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body. He trains thus: 'I shall breathe in tranquilizing the bodily formation': He trains thus: 'I shall breathe out tranquilizing the bodily formation'. Now, we get to the part where the real instructions abide. [Commentor: This seems like that the author happily discovers something new, which others have not discovered yet. But this is not right fact.] When the instructions says 'He trains thus' the meditator begins to train their mind to become more observant, so they see their whole physical body on the in breath and out breath. The meditator NEVER tries to control their breath in any way! They just let body breathe naturally. They notice where body has tightness or tension in it. On the in breath notice when there is tightness in the muscle of the shoulders or back or hands, etc. And do the same on the out breath. This, is the most important part of the meditation and that is to relax those tight muscles consciously and do this on the in breath and the out breath. [Commentor: This is completely wrong. The Buddha did not say like this. What The Buddha said in Sutta is ''Sabba kaaya patisamvedii assassissaamiiti sikkhati''. Sabba means 'all' 'every part' 'every one'. Kaaya means 'combination' 'body' 'aggregate'. Sabba kaaya means 'all physical phenomena at body caused by breathing movement' So hair, nail, bone, skin and many other body parts are nothing to do with breathing. But the meditator has to attend all ruupa (photthabba-ruupa like hardness-softness, heat-cold or temperature, pressure-movement etc)when breathing. This is sabba kaaya. Patisamvedii = pati + sam + vedati ( vedii = feeling-action, vedati = feel-act) Pati derives from 'patigha'. It means 'touch' 'strike' 'tap' 'stroke' 'meet'. Sam means 'very well' 'evenly' 'rightly' 'truely'. So 'patisamvedii' means 'feeling well touching'. Assa means 'breathe' and 'issami' here means 'will'. So it means 'will breathe'. Iti means 'like' 'such as'. Sikkhati means 'practise' 'train'. So this sentence means 'practise by breathing feeling touching very well over all bodily ruupa caused by breathing movement'.] An interesting observation about the people in this country is, that they think the whole body starts at the neck then goes down, while from the neck up is a part of mind. [Commentor: This sound strange. Because 'sabba kaaya here is nothing to do with neck, head, body at all.] This is a wrong perception that needs to be addressed. The whole body starts at the top of the head and goes down from there. When noticing any tightness or tension, the first place that needs to be observed is in the head. [Commentor:These are not The Buddha's words in sutta. The Buddha did not say 'tightness in the head etc.] Every thought, every movement of mind begins with a subtle tightness or tension arising in the head. Meditators need to be aware of this and relax on the in breath and relax on the out breath. The meditator uses the breath as a reminder to relax. [Commentor: The Buddha did not say this. The Buddha did say that 'not to add to His teachings' 'not to remove from His teachings'.] Smiling Once the meditator begins to meditate, first softly close the eyes, then put a little smile in the mind, a little smile in the eyes, even though the eyes are closed, put a little smile on the lips and a smile in the heart. [Commentor: Aanaapaanasati sutta does not say any smile. It is not a smiling exercise.] Having a smile is a very important part of the meditation! There have been some studies done on the corners of the mouth. When the corners of the mouth go down, mind has a tendency to be heavy, rigid and unhappy. So at that time, mind tends to be sluggish and can become stiff and it moves very slowly. But when the corners of the mouth go up mind tends to be happy and have uplifting thoughts. Then mind tends to be lighter and more uid in watching. Joy is one of the enlightenment factors and smiling leads the meditator to this joy. [Commentor: Delibrate smile is not a factor of enlightenment.] Just look at a good Buddha image and see the smile. The artist is showing us that this should be a joyful experience. This is definitely a smiling meditation! [Commentor: This is self-assumption. There always have reasons while The Buddha smile. Images do not tell us any Dhamma. Dhamma is there in what The Buddha taught as Dhamma through out His lifespan.] On the in-breath, relax the tightness in the body [especially the head]... smile. On the out-breath... relax... smile... in-breath... relax... smile... outbreath... relax.. smile. [Commentor: This is very strange instruction. The Buddha did not say like this.] When relaxing feel mind kind of open up and expand, like a hand does when it opens up after it was holding onto something, then, at that time, mind becomes very calm and clear. It is like mind takes a tiny step down from where it was. This open calm mind has no thoughts in it, there is only a pure awareness, that is exceptionally alert and bright. The meditator stays with the breath and relaxing as much as possible, without grabbing onto or trying to control anything. Just observe, and relax. This is the simplest and most fun meditation to practice, that the author has ever seen or experienced. [Commentor: Buddha teachings are not the place of fun-seeking.] Arising thoughts Many people think that when they are "meditating", mind is not "supposed" to have thoughts in it. But this is not the case. Especially at the beginning mind will run all over the place and think about this and think about that. "AND" that is alright! Thoughts are not the enemy to push down, stop or fight with. Thoughts are just thoughts, so the meditator treats them simply as a small distraction and when the meditator notices that mind is thinking about this or that, they just let go of those thoughts, even if mind thinks that these thoughts are "important". [Commentor: The Buddha already instructed how to deal with thought. There are enemies thoughts like kaamacchandha nivarana or sensuous thoughts like attachments, byaapaada nivarana or aversive thoughts like hatred, dislike etc.] Let them go , relax the subtle tightness caused by the thoughts and softly redirect the attention back to the breath and relaxing again. At first the meditator may not notice that mind has gone away for a long time, but as soon as they have noticed they let go, relax and redirect mind back to the meditation object (the breath, relaxing and smiling). [Commentor: This is strange. Sutta do not say these.] There is no need to criticize or condemn oneself, at all. This is a part of training one's awareness and it can be a fun part of the meditation when not taken too seriously. It is alright to have fun and make the meditation a part of a game. Smile! [Commentor: Meditation is not a fun.] Body movement When the meditator begins to sit they must not move any part of there body at all. [Commentor: This is totally wrong. This is self-assumption. The statues do not indicate to sit like them. Whenthe meditator wants to move, heor she has to note that there arise a mind that want to move and then move. And when move just to clearly understand that there arise ruupa like movement and they pass away.] Please don't wiggle the fingers or toes, don't sway the body, don't scratch, don't shift the body, don't rub, don't change your posture, for any reason. [Commentor: When the beginning is wrong then the goal will be far away to achieve.] Please sit as still as a Buddha image or big rock that is stuck in the ground. You can move as much as they do. [Commentor: The Buddha did not teach like this.] When sitting like this there may be some sensations that arise, like an itch, a tickle in the throat, a sneeze, heat, vibration, or even pain. Please remember that you can't move at all! [Commentor: This is totally wrong.] So what to do? First, notice that the impulse to make the sensation go away is very strong and your mind will begin to think about it. These thoughts sound something like this, "I wish that this would stop!", "I hate this feeling", "Why doesn't this just go away and stop bothering me!", "I want this to leave me alone!", "But the instructions say that I can't move!", or "Oh, what torture!". The first thing that the meditator will observe is the thoughts about the sensation. The meditator will see that the more one tries to control the sensation with their thoughts, the bigger and more intense that sensation becomes. The instructions tell us, to let go of the thoughts and then to notice that there is a subtle tightness in the head and in one's mind, so then relax. [Commentor: These are never found in tipitaka or The Buddha's teachings.] Next the meditator will notice that there is a tight mental fist wrapped around that sensation, one lets the sensation be there without any resistance at all. The truth [dhamma] of the present moment is, when a sensation arises, 'It is there' ! If the meditator tries to fight that sensation, or they try to control that sensation in any way, or they try to make that sensation go away, as a result, it gets bigger and more intense. Allowing sensations to be The meditator learns through this training of themselves, to allow that sensation to be there. One learns to open up that tight mental fist and allow the sensation to be and do whatever it wants to do. It is only a sensation and it is alright for that sensation to be there. It has to be alright, why? Because that is the truth! Anytime one tries to fight with the truth or control the truth or make the truth be they way they want it to be, it causes more and more suffering. The meditator simply allows the sensation to be there and to float like a bubble floating in the wind. When the wind blows from one direction the bubble goes in the same direction and when the wind changes and blows in another direction the bubble goes in that direction. The bubble has no resistance at all it just oats around wherever it will. So in the same way, the meditator allows the sensation to float wherever it will. This meditation is about watching the movements of mind. Meditation is learning how to lovingly accept whatever it is that arises in the present moment and allow it to be there without any resistance at all. Now, the meditator notices a kind of subtle and sometimes not so subtle tightness or tension in their body, especially in the head, relax and smile. Now they feel mind relax and kind of expand then open up and next mind seems to take a little step down and it becomes calm. At that time, mind becomes very clear and alert, there are no thoughts in mind so it becomes pure. Now the meditator will please redirect their attention back to the breath, relax and smile again. Of course, the nature of these kinds of sensations is that they don't go away right away. So mind may get pulled back to that sensation again and the meditator does the same thing again. No matter how many times mind gets pulled away, the process is always the same. First let go of the thought... relax... smile, next let go of that tight mental fist wrapped around that sensation... relax... smile... softly redirect mind back to the breath, relaxing and smile... [Commentor: This is very very strange instruction. The Buddha did not say these and these are not in tipitaka.] Conclusion These are the bare-bones instructions for the Mindfulness of Breathing. These instructions when followed closely will work for every type of distraction that takes mind away from being in the present moment, relaxing and smiling. One thing to remember is that this is an all of the time meditation. When a person is walking from their house to the car or the car to their work place, what is their mind doing at that time? Thinking about this or that, liking this, disliking that and so on. This is the time to recognize that mind is wandering around and let go of the thoughts, relax, smile and redirect their attention back to the breath, relaxing and smiling again. Do this as many times during the day as can be remembered. This is how one practices the meditation all of the time. May this booklet be of some assistance to all who are searching the path of awakening. May all beings be successful in attaining Nibbana quickly and easily, in this lifetime. The author shares the merit of writing this booklet with his mother, father and all beings. It is customary after reading or sharing Dhamma with some else to Share Merit with all beings. So: May suffering ones, be suffering free And the fear-struck, fearless be. May the grieving shed all grief, And may all beings find relief. May all beings share this merit that we have thus acquired, For the acquisition of all kinds of happiness. May beings inhabiting space and earth, Devas and nagas of mighty power, Share this merit of ours. May they long protect the Lord Buddha's dispensation. Sadhu ... Sadhu... Sadhu... -ooOoo- [Commentor: May all beings whoever read false things see the false as false and understand real dhamma.]'' 47361 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 -Dear Htoo, I like your comments on the essay about anapanasati. One point: you wrote wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, ''Sabba kaaya patisamvedii assassissaamiiti sikkhati''. Sabba means 'all' 'every part' 'every one'. Kaaya means 'combination' 'body' 'aggregate'. Sabba kaaya means 'all physical phenomena at body caused by breathing movement' So hair, nail, bone, skin and many other body parts are nothing to do with breathing. But the meditator has to attend all ruupa (photthabba-ruupa like hardness-softness, heat-cold or temperature, pressure-movement etc)when breathing. This is sabba kaaya. _____________ I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. RobertK 47362 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:40am Subject: Withdrawal Wins Wisdom ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Withdrawal is the Third Mental Perfection: Withdrawal is Removal of Misery Withdrawal is Extraction of Disease. Withdrawal is Pulling out the splinter of Pain. Withdrawal is Retraction from Danger. Withdrawal is Renunciation of Ill. Withdrawal is Letting Go of what is Burning. Withdrawal is Turning Away from what is Sorrow. Withdrawal is Seclusion from what is Grief. Withdrawal is Clearing of Captivating Illusions. Withdrawal is Waking Up from Enthralling Trance. Withdrawal is Freedom from Enslaving Addiction. Withdrawal is Protection of what is Entrapping. Withdrawal is Giving Up what is Detrimental. Withdrawal is Discharge of what is Infested. Withdrawal is Breaking out of the Prison. Withdrawal is Release from all Suffering... Withdraw, as the man newly freed from prison does not at all wish himself back in prison! The Basket of Conduct Infatuated with lust, impassioned & obsessed, they are caught in their own self-created net, like a spider, which spins it's own web! Cutting through the Noble Friend withdraw & go free, Without longing, without greed, leaving all misery behind. Dhammapada 347 Blissful is solitude for the contented, learned & knowing True Dhamma. Blissful is harmlessness towards all breathing beings without exception. Blissful is freedom from all urge of sensual slavery whatsoever. Yet, supreme bliss, is the withdrawal from the abysmal conceit "I am"!' Udana - Inspiration: II - 1 The Bodhisatta once as the King Culasutasoma gave up his whole kingdom. Knowing this withdrawal to be an advantageous victory, he remembered: A mighty kingdom I possessed, as if it was dropped into my hands... Yet all this tantalizing luxury, I let fall without any even slight trace of longing nor clinging. This was my perfection of Withdrawal. Jataka no. 525 Lust, I say, is a great flood; a whirlpool sucking one down, a constant yearning, seeking a hold, continually active; difficult to cross is such morass of sensual desire... A sage does not deviate from good, but remains steady! A recluse stands on firm ground, when secluded; withdrawn from all, truly he is calmed & silenced! Having directly touched the Dhamma, he is independent. He behaves right & does not envy anyone anywhere... He who has left behind all pleasure arised from sensing, an attachment difficult to cut, is freed of both depression & longing, since he has cut across the flood, and is released. Sutta Nipata IV.15 Any being, that cools down all desires & greedy lusts, by being alert & ever aware of the inherent danger, by directing attention only to these disgusting aspects of all phenomena, such one withdraw from craving and thereby wears down & breaks the chains of this prison. Dhammapada 350 If one gains an infinite ease by leaving a minor pleasure, the clever one should swap the luminous for that trifling sensual pleasure, by withdrawing from this trivial boredom. Dhammapada 290 The one who has reached the sublime end all perfected, is fearless, freed of craving, desireless and unclinging... Such one has broken the chains of being and is certainly withdrawing into the final phase, wearing his last frame. Dhammapada 351 The household life is a cramped way, choked with dust. To leave it, is like coming out into the free space of open air! It is not easy for one who lives at home, to live the Noble life completely perfect and pure, bright as mother-of-pearl. Surely I will now shave off my hair & go forth into homelessness. Only Misery Arises. Only Misery Ceases. Nothing good is thus lost by withdrawing from it all...!!! Ehi Bhikkhus ;-) ______________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47363 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:47am Subject: July 9th - My Niece's Death Anniversary Im Memoriam Notice balancing_life Hi EveryOne Oh WoW! I simply can't keep up with 200+ messages in this group alone in a week, so please do forgive me, if i can't reply/answer at once. You see, last time i had an office to myself & i could surf the internet anytime of the day or answer at once, but now, with my boss's presence just behind me, through an transparent office door, i am unable to do anything other than work, unless it's after 6.00 pm, and it takes about an hour or so, to reach home and at my apartment, it will be quite dark, so i have leave the office straight after office hours, as my pet cat, Olivia will be hungry and i have to water the plants as well as to feed the fishes...too dark to see, if i were to stay back in the office. The reason i prefer to use our office computer is that i can use the internet for free, whereas if i were to use the computer at home, it will cost me about USD 1 cent per minute and during weekends, i use at least 2 hours or more, so i can't really afford, to surf the net at home. Ok, the reason i am writing now is that i have the file and sadly, my brother still has atttachment to his daughter...i thought he would have forgotten about it, since there is so much on his mind, these days. Here's how the notice reads...(as promised in my earlier email) "M, wherever you are & wherever you been reborn, May you be well & happy May you be free from harm & danger May you be free from mental suffering May you be free from physical suffering May you take care of yourself May you find true happiness To you, friendship means more than life May you forgive those who have treated you so unfairly". He has asked the memoriam notice to be advertised tomorrow, in an English National Daily & also another 2 National Chinese Dailies. Namaste & Peace, To EveryBody, :{ AliceInSadMemoriesLand P/S - Tomorrow, i will be going to the Mahindarama Temple, for the Puja Services till to the end, where they will do the "In Memory of" or "Transferance of Merits" chanting and after that, i have to go over to the mainland, to fetch my father to his mother-in-law's place to Penang, as it is her birthday. You see my mum passed away more than 27 years ago when i was 19 years old and after that he remarried my stepmum, whom we called "Auntie", recommended by my mum's own sister (my aunt), who is 20 years his junior, so the thing is that his mother-in-law is almost the same age as my father, 80+ years old...sigh...each time i see my father, i also get so depressed as i feel so hopeless & guilty as well, when i see him doddering about with his walking stick...as we live so far apart, that i only see him about once a month or only when i have official duties at my Prai HQ office, which is just opposite my father's house. Before i go, i would like to express my deepest condolences, to the bereaved families, of those bomb-blast victims in London...how vicious those terrorists are, but according to the news, the AlQaeda group said that they were seeking revenge for the war in Iraq & Afghanistan, started by President Bush, but vetoed openly by Prime Minister Tony Blair & other allied countries...every of those countries, have now tightened their national security. When i heard the news, i suddenly remembered, my other niece by my eldest brother, who was the cream of the crop in her studies, that the Singaporean Government sponsored her to a University in England and her younger sister, went last month to visit her for a holiday, before coming back together with her...and when i phoned them last evening, her sister answered that luckily, they both just touched down in Singapore Changi Airport, and have just reached home. Ok, gotto go...cya all on Sunday, if i can make it, that is. Dated : 8th July 2005 Day : Friday Time : 3.48 pm PPS - My boss is out for the moment & won't be back until much later. :} AliceInWhenTheKittyIsAwayLand 47364 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:19am Subject: Nimitta: Same sign with whatever object ... bhikkhu_ekamuni > Tep: Please explain the sign of calm and the sign of concentration, > resulting in onepointedness, for the 32 objects The signs of calm and concentration are not different when contemplating these 32 or any other objects (except visual): The 'sign' functions like this: When 'accidentally' absorbed momentarily, one might note the mental characteristics of this fleeting state and think "Ohhh: how about this, what a calm, what a focus..." This remembrance is itself the 'sign', which one then can direct back to, return to, search and reach, since now one knows what to look out after. The 'sign' is like 'a key', which when you find it (again), can open the door (again) to unified absorption. Or the 'sign' is like a way you have been on before & therefore can follow again to the same destination: absorption. There is these 8 stages during breathing meditation: 1: Counting the breaths in-out: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 to 10 & then 1-1, again etc. 2: Connecting the breaths in-out: 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 to 10 & then 1-2, again etc. 3: Touching the steady state. (momentarily, repeatedly) 4: Fixing the steady state. (anchoring, and thus prolonging) 5: Observing the steady state. (now steadily absorbed) 6: Turning away (to insight object: Impermanence, Fading, etc.) 7: Purifying and refining this steady state. 8: Reviewing it after emerging from absorption. The beginner reach stage 1-3 for a long time. When having touched absorption momentarily and repeatedly the job is to fix it, & stabilize it... This is where the skill in directing 'back' to this same experience, same 'sign' as when one first 'entered', since this itself triggers 'entry' again and again with increasing facility... It is like the Pavlows dogs, which was conditioned by hearing a bell when fed, to later salivate only when hearing the bell. So also the meditator: He couple or conditions the experience or remembrance of the 'sign' to entry into absorption. Later he just need to direct mind back to remembering the sign then he 'automatically enters absorption, like the dogs 'automatically salivated when hearing the bell. So the sign is the same whatever one meditates on both before and after (if ever) entry into a unified state. : - ] 47365 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I appreciate what you wrote : "In no way does a consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness rooted in greed is the experience of greed, not some object." What about a consciousness rooted in dosa ? Does it know an object? Then you stated, "It is my contention that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of desire." Larry, there are more about the "object of desire" in DN 22. "And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. "And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world... sota, .., mano; rupa, ...,dhamma; cakkhuvinnana, ..., manovinnana; cakkhusamphasso, ..., manosamphasso; cakkhusamphassja vedana, ..., manosamphassja vedana; rupasancetana ,..., dhammasancetana; rupatanha,..., dhammtanha; rupavitakko, ..., dhammavitakko; rupavicar,...,dhammavicaro is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells." Kind regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: > the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". > > Hi Sarah, > >(snipped) > As for the object of greed, a careful reading of the 'craving' section > on dependent origination in Vism. (Vism.XII,233 fol.) shows that craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. It is my contention that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of desire. We can say dependent on contact feeling arises and dependent on feeling, craving; but what I am trying to get at is what we "think of" as the object of desire, what we say we want or like, is a > conceptualization of the formation of visible object, feeling, latent > tendency and probably many other factors as well. It is good to know > that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is > fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like arises > conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes > something is logic, not reality. > > Larry 47366 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:21am Subject: The Buddha on Divine Infinite Friendliness ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Speech of the Buddha on Friendliness: What should the clever one advantageously do To attain This State called Peace, is this: He should be intelligent, straight, honest, Humble, gentle and never proud, Contented, and easy to support, Not busy, careful, and silenced. In abilities & senses, cautious, & modest, Not flattering families nor be demanding. He should do no even minor thing at all, That other wise men might criticize. Then he should think: May all beings be joyous and safe! Let every creature's mind rejoice. Whatever breathing beings there are, No matter whether feeble or firm, With none excepted, whether long; Tall, big, medium, short or small; Whether seen or unseen, visible or not; Whether living far or near, here or there; Whether existing or just about to become; Let every living being's mind be jubilant!!! Let none kill or another one undo, Nor harm anyone anywhere at all ... Let none wish another any ill, neither From provocation nor by evil revenge. Thus, as a mother with her own life Might guard her son, her only child, thus Should he maintain an infinite friendliness; for every living being, in sympathy for this entire universe, unlimited, endless & vast! Above, below, and all around, unimpeded, without any hatred, without any enemies! Whether standing, walking, seated or lying down while slumbering, he should always maintain such awareness of gentle kindness... This is the Divine Dwelling here, they say. He that do not traffic with the various views, Perfected in seeing what is right & wrong, Purged of lust for sense-pleasures, he will surely not come back here to any womb... Source: Minor Readings and the Illustrator http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130231 __________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47367 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Long time no see. Htoo: There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned dhamma. Tep: Are you saying that ultimate realities are real ultimately? Are they not real initially? Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these instructions are not fully understood and there always are misinterpretations. Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is best, in general? It is clear that understanding comes first for every action, if a good result is expected. But does right understanding always follow learning? Is there a "right learning"? What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the instructions given by another being, who may not exist ultimately :>)). Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or > consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do > not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned > dhamma. > > There is no man, woman, human being, deva in ultimate sense. There is > no person in ultimate sense. Ultimate realities are not difficult to > see and equally they are hard to see. This will depend on individual. > > To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all > possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not > understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. > > There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these > instructions are not fully understood and there always are > misinterpretations. > 47368 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:47am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, I like your comments on the essay about anapanasati. One point: you wrote wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > ''Sabba kaaya patisamvedii assassissaamiiti sikkhati''. > > Sabba means 'all' 'every part' 'every one'. > Kaaya means 'combination' 'body' 'aggregate'. > Sabba kaaya means 'all physical phenomena at body caused by breathing > movement' > So hair, nail, bone, skin and many other body parts are nothing to > do with breathing. But the meditator has to attend all ruupa > (photthabba-ruupa like hardness-softness, heat-cold or temperature, > pressure-movement etc)when breathing. This is sabba kaaya. _____________ I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Nina will also give some suggestion on kaaya here, I hope. Mahaasatipatthaana is to do with '5 khandhas'. 1. kaayaanupassanaa or 'contemplation on bodily-ruupas' is for understanding on rupakkhandha or material aggregates. 2. vedanaanupassana or 'contemplation on feeling' is for understanding on vedanakkhandha or feeling aggregates. 3. cittaanupassana or 'contemplation on consciousness' is for understanding on vinnaanakkhandha or 'consciousness aggregates'. 4. dhammaanupassana or 'contemplation on dhamma' is for understanind on sannakkhandha or 'perception aggregates' and understing on sankhaarakkhandha or 'formation aggregates'. And also all other khandhas or aggregates and their cessations. It is kaayanupassana. So it mainly describes on ruupa. There are mental bodies that can be directed in vedanaanupassana, citta- anupassana and dhammaanupassana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47369 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:10am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path > instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > instructions given by another being, who may not exist ultimately :>)). > Dear Tep, Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. RobertK 47370 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Tep, How are you? I have just been busy. Initially I did not intend to reply in such way because it would be time-consuming. But when I re- thought it would be beneficial for readers. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - Long time no see. Htoo: There are dhamma that are real ultimately. They are citta or consciousness, cetasika or mental factor, rupa or material, which do not have faculties of consciousness, and nibbana or unconditioned dhamma. Tep: Are you saying that ultimate realities are real ultimately? Are they not real initially? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) You already know. Why bother such meaning on ultimate realities? If argumentation is a good thing then this can be argued like this. They were initially not real for those who could not see them as they are. But for those who see things as they really are see them real ultimately. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep quote: Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path may be followed. There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these instructions are not fully understood and there always are misinterpretations. & Tep wrote: Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is best, in general? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are pedagogic matter. 1. transferred wisdom or transferred knolwedge is given by some outside individuals in many different ways like 'speech' 'talk' 'text' 'books' 'through teaching'. 2. self-discovered wisdom or knowledge arise within individual and this arising of knowledge is not the result of others' teaching. Example; No one taught 'Issac Newton' Newton's laws. 3. self-realized wisdom or knowledge only arise within indiviudal when there are conditions. I think there is no 'the best way to learn'. Even people who were close to arahats did not know that he was and arahat. People had to know only after parinibbana of that arahat as evidenced by miracle relics. If such high beings are nominated then people will go there for their profit whatever that profit is economical or spiritual or anything. So there is no best way in learing even though pedagogic people would argue on this. Dhamma only arise when there are conditions for them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: It is clear that understanding comes first for every action, if a good result is expected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was thinking on 'expectation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: But does right understanding always follow learning? Is there a "right learning"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are matters of wording. Learning is experiencing at least. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path instructions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Study repeatedly through 1. hearing on others' teachings 2. reading and reflecting on others' teachings 3. think over again and again what have been learned 4. ask questions to those who teach, to those who are wise etc 5. discuss on dhamma issues whenever possible 6. bear all learned things not to lose 7. speak to others about what have been learned 8. train others in the way that they have experienced. Example: 1. What is ruupa? a) listen to someone's explanation b) search and read in texts accessible c) think out d) feel it with own mind e) experience it ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: I assume that there is a being initially to learn the instructions given by another being, who may not exist ultimately :>)). Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been posted here. Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. 1. Did The Buddha exist? 2. Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? 3. Do Dhamma exist? 4. Did and do arahats exist? 5. Did I exist? 6. Do I exist? 7. Will I be there in the future? I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there in the screen for your mind. a) things on the screen 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) 3. gandhaarammana (smell) 4. rasaarammana (taste) 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) b) the screen watcher (your mind) 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) Do these exist? Did they exist? Will they exist? Do Tep exist? Did Tep exist? Will Tep exist? 1. Is ruupaarammana nicca or anicca? 2. Is sadda 7. Is cakkhuvinnaana nicca or anicca? 8. Is sota - - 12. Is manovinnaana cittas nicca or anicca? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47371 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (432) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Akusala kamma have been talked. Kaama kusala kamma have also been discussed. There are 8 mahaakusala cittas. When they arise they generate 8 kaama kusala kamma. Their effects are 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas and 8 sahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. This is just general description. When these kamma are committed there are different degree of invlovement of cetana. That is there are different kamma when they are being committed. They are ukkattha kamma and omaka kamma. Ukkattha kamma are greater kamma and omaka kamma are lesser kamma. Ukkattha kamma is much more powerful in terms of effects thay give rise to. Ukkattha kamma are committed with full intention. So there is no need to be prompted. That is when offering is done, that offering is done with full intention to offer and there is no one who prompts to offer. Such offering generates ukkattha kamma. When one is advised to offer or to do some kusala things prompted by other or even by himself or herself that kamma is a bit weaker than ukkattha kamma. There is a hierarchy kusala kamma. 1. tihetuka ukkattha kamma 2. tihetuka omaka kamma 3. dvihetuka ukkattha kamma 4. dvihetuka omaka kamma Kusala kamma are committed when 8 mahaakusala cittas arise. There are 4 tihetuka cittas and 4 dvihetuka cittas. Each 4 has 2 ukkattha and 2 omaka implications. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47372 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:49am Subject: Dhammaanupassana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 dhammanupassana or 108 contemplation on dhamma. So this can be used in bead-counting or bead-telling even though this may not be the right thing to do. But at least this will help consolidating the map. Dhammanupassana 1. 25 contemplation on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplation on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplation on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplation on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplation on Noble Truth (sacca) --- 108 contemplations There is also a way to do bead-counting or bead-telling. Again this is not the right way. But at least this practice may help consolidatingthe map. That way is bead-counting or bead-telling on 1080 contemplations on dhamma. a) 216 contemplation on the body or 'kaayaanupassana' b) 30 contemplation on feeling or 'vedananupassana' c) 51 contemplation on consciousness or 'cittanupassana' d) 108 contemplation on dhamma or 'dhammanupassana' The method is 1. 9 Buddha guna ( Araham, Sammasambuddho, etc. ) 2. 216 kayanupassana 3. 9 Buddha guna ( Araham, Sammasambuddho, etc.) 4. 30 vedananupassana 5. 9 Buddha guna 6. 51 cittanupassana 7. 9 Buddha guna 8. 108 dhammanupassana 9. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 10. 216 kayanupassana (repeat) 11. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 12. 30 vedananupassana(repeat) 13. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 14. 51 cittanupassana(repeat) 15. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 16. 108 dhammanupassana(repeat) 17. 9 Buddha guna (repeat) 18. 99 saccanupassana(repeat) ---- 1080 So there will be 10 rounds of 108-beaded string and this will help contemplating on mahasatipatthana twice each cycle along with contemplation on Buddha guna or attributes of The Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47373 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? nilovg Dear Rob K, Though kaya can also refer to the mental body, cetasikas, I think in this context we have to think of rupas. The four tetrads of anapanasati which is included in mindfulness of body, pertain successively to seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, citta in citta and dhamma in dhamma. This is all explained in the Visuddhimagga. Nina. op 08-07-2005 13:17 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: > I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental > body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. > RobertK 47374 From: nina Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:35am Subject: ongoing mindfulness. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your posts. I do not have anything to add, but I am wondering about one point. You mention in another post certain conditions for the development of paññaa, and among them siila and ongoing mindfulness. I may have misunderstood you, do you mean continuous mindfulness? As a preliminary condition? For what stage of paññaa? And mindfulness of what? Mindfulness, as I see it, has an object. Mindfulness of the level of satipatthana is mindfulness of nama or rupa. There are other levels, it accompanies each kusala citta and it is non-forgetful of kusala. I ask, because I think these are important points. Nina. 47375 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 8:08am Subject: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta upasaka_howard Hi, all - As I understand it, the commentaries describe a citta as passing through three consecutive phases of arising, maintaining, and declining. Exactly what changes occurring in the citta distinguish these stages? Is it a matter of increasing of intensity from a zero level, up to a maximum that is maintained for a while, and then followed by a decreasing of intensity back to the zero level? Also, whatever changes, whether it be intensity or something else, are all the cetasikas associated with the citta correspondingly varying? So as not to be laying a trap for you good folks with the preceding questions, let me be "up front" in saying that something that changes cannot be considered a "reality", can it? It seems to me that this commentarial notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47376 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] ongoing mindfulness. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/8/05 2:35:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thank you for your posts. I do not have anything to add, but I am wondering about one point. You mention in another post certain conditions for the development of paññaa, and among them siila and ongoing mindfulness. I may have misunderstood you, do you mean continuous mindfulness? --------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I didn't mean that. I was speaking informally and referring to a practice of being consistently mindful of what is happening at "ordinary times" as opposed to specifically during "formal meditation" periods. Mindfulness is an enlightenment factor, but I don't think that it needs to be present at every moment. -------------------------------------------- As a preliminary condition? For what stage of paññaa? And mindfulness of what? Mindfulness, as I see it, has an object. Mindfulness of the level of satipatthana is mindfulness of nama or rupa. There are other levels, it accompanies each kusala citta and it is non-forgetful of kusala. I ask, because I think these are important points. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope what I said above sufficiently clarifies what I had in mind, Nina. ------------------------------------------ Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47377 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - Thank you for the reply -- I understand and agree with what you wrote below. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path > > instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > > instructions given by another being, who may not exist > ultimately :>)). > > > > > Dear Tep, > Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. > RobertK 47378 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:20am Subject: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? ksheri3 Hi group, an interesting phrase came up in Nina's e-book: Part I, chapter 2, p.2: "there is no moment without feeling When there is not pleasant feeling or nupleasant feeling, there is indifferent feeling. It is difficult to know what indifferent feeling is. So long as we cannot distinguish nama from rupa we cannot know precisely the characteristic of feeling and thus we cannot know indifferent feeling either." No chance of ever being aloof from feeling. Lets say body-consciousness. Now lets move to p.3 "...This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense." Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will ask: is sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy my eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not impact my body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? What about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? cool thoughts huh? Oh don't worry in my youth while working sex magik I was refered to as THE BRACKET CREEP. Maybe a good place to find my defiintion would be The Illuminatis Triology the chapter with the heading THE SNAFU PRINCIPLE. I am defined below it in the piece about THE DAMNED THING. toodles, colette 47379 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:27pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. > > In this regard, the Buddha is not prescriptive. He does not say "you > should do this or that". He does say "if you want to achieve this > goal, do this and that" and leaves it to the hearer what they do with it. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Hah! No prescription! ;-) Anyone who wouldn't understand the prescription > he was dispensing had just too much dust in his eyes to bother with! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------- > Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange notion, isn't it ? Kind Regards Herman 47380 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, <...> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > op 07-07-2005 20:47 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > In her paper, "Introduction" p.2, "The > > cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment > > of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas arise each moment > > and then they fall away immediately." I can tentatively accept that > > however, in the mind, there must be a residue, something left behind > > after the citta has fallen since it is the citta's cessation that > > causes the cessation of the cetasika. > ------- > N: Each citta with its accompanying cetasikas arises, experience an object > and then fall away together. Each citta that falls away is succeeded by a > next citta, without there being an interval. This goes on throughout life > and from life to life. colette: I can see that you're attempting to manifest in the mind of the neophyte, aspirant, the fundamentals of citta in the above statement. This is the Stream of Consciousness. In the case of the operative Meditator the necessity for this focus is ABSOLUTE. Here we go girls & boys: ----------------------- > Seeing is one citta, and thinking about what is seen is another one, hearing > is one citta and thinking about what is heard is another citta. colette: True, however you are apperently trying to asert that the eye can only see a single sight, the ear can only hear a single sound, etc. The mind has the choice to DISCRIMINATE AGAINST AND FOR therefore when you say "seeing is one citta" you should be making that statement more clear to the neophyte by reminding them of the difficulty involved here since the eye sees more than a single sight. Obviously we can debate this over and over and over... but I do not need 'a priori' knowledge to know that if I beat my head against a brick wall it will then cause pain. That wall exists in you Nina and I know that it is a waste of my valuable time on this planet in this incarnation, etc, to bother with a triffle you will refuse to relingquish possession of and that possesses you: the more you want it the more it wants you thus making your suffering all the more greater and your confusion all the more deeper and profound. <...> ----------------------------------- It seems > that we can see and hear at the same time, but in fact only one citta arises > at a time and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the > same time, and this shows how fast cittas arise and fall away. > You entered this world with certain tendencies, abilities, inclinations, > different from other people. This was because you accumulated such > tendencies in the past. <...> > Also in this life you react in a certain way to what > you experience, but the citta and cetasikas fall away. Since each citta is > succeeded by a next one such tendencies are carried on to the next citta, > and so on, even from life to life. colette: true but since my brain cells are not programmed the same as your brain cells and they are not lined up in the same order as would numbers on a balance sheet or soldiers in the British Army once called Red Coats, then I have the unequivicable right to manifest something other. <...> You remember former experiences, though > these have fallen away. This is because the remembrance of these experiences > is carried on from one citta to the next. colette: c'mon lets not be contradictory here. <..> You can't say that the citta and cetasika fall away and then say that they are carried to the next citta. Since I think I made my point rather clear by using the wagon wheel marks in the earth as a form of meditation: the marks are left upon the earth of the path taken, citta = wagon. --------------------- What we learn is never lost, it is > accumulated in the citta. colette: not the way I read your material so far. the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta is of no value to the knowledge once it has been learned. --------------------- Wholesome tendencies and unwholesome tendencies colette: <...>You keep talking about these things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in since the begining of time/history. ---------------------------------- > are accumulated and these condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala > citta. > We speak in conventional language about different characters, but in reality > these are accumulated tendencies in each citta. It is not a residu that > stays the same, colette: I'm not talking about the residu that remains the same, the path the thought or enlightenment took thru the synapses is marked, traversed, and therefore will be easier to traverse the second, third, fourth, etc. <...> -------------------- it is subject to change. New experiences and tendencies are > accumulated at each moment. That is why understanding can grow and even > develop to supramundane paññaa. > Nina. No offense taken, just as I hope you do not take offense at my words which are rather straigh forward. toodles, colette 47381 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Vism.XIV,171 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 171. Herein, (xlv) by its means they hate, or it itself hates, or it is just mere hating, thus it is 'hate' (dosa). It has the characteristic of savageness, like a provoked snake. Its function is to spread, like a drop of poison, or its function is to burn up its own support, like a forest fire. It is manifested as persecuting (duusana), like an enemy who has got his chance. Its proximate cause is the grounds for annoyance (see A.v,150). It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with poison. 47382 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 0:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/8/05 6:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange notion, isn't it ? ============================ Well said, Herman! And the Buddha has been described as the great physician! Right? Also, the 4 noble truths have often been likened to a physician's dealing with an illness: diagnosis (dukkha), cause (tanha/upadana), prognosis (nibbana), and course of treatment (magga). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47383 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi Htoo, You write many interesting things. If you feel inclined, I would certainly appreciate your time and effort to further examine some of these things. > > Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn > dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If > dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path > may be followed. > > There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these > instructions are not fully understood and there always are > misinterpretations. > > & Tep wrote: > > Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible > way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is > best, in general? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > These are pedagogic matter. > > 1. transferred wisdom or transferred knolwedge is given by some > outside individuals in many different ways like 'speech' 'talk' > 'text' 'books' 'through teaching'. > > 2. self-discovered wisdom or knowledge arise within individual and > this arising of knowledge is not the result of others' teaching. > Example; No one taught 'Issac Newton' Newton's laws. > > 3. self-realized wisdom or knowledge only arise within indiviudal > when there are conditions. > === A] I wonder if you would allow for another category of transferred knowledge. Sexual reproduction. Babies, for short. In a healthy baby there is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling. These senses are not self-discovered, they are not taught, but they are there as another, new instance of "seeing knowing visible object", "hearing knowing audible object" and so on. B] I wonder, too, to what extent transferred knowledge (teaching / learning) is a genuine category of knowing. I think there is often confusion between what is learnt and what is known. A silly medium - sized example follows. I would be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Little Johny comes home from school, and his Dad asks him "What do you know today that you didn't know yesterday". If Johny were to say "I know that there are 4 chambers in the heart" he would have misunderstood what knowing that means. If he instead would have said "The teacher teaches that there are 4 chambers in the heart" Johny would have shown wisdom beyond his years. Likewise little Colette. If she tells Mum that she now knows how to catch a ball, because that's what she did in sport, she'd be right. But if it was raining that day, and the teacher only explained the theory of catching a ball, Colette cannot say she knows how to catch a ball. > Htoo: > > I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there > in the screen for your mind. > > a) things on the screen > > 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) > 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) > 3. gandhaarammana (smell) > 4. rasaarammana (taste) > 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) > 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) What about the following? Seeing the things on the screen of the mind is equal to the act of differentiating them, abstracting them. Without an act, a grasping, a doing, none of these are apparent. > > b) the screen watcher (your mind) > > 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) > 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) > 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) > 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) > 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) > 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) The separation of experience into namas and rupas is a conceptual activity. Do namas exist? Not without rupas. Do rupas exist? Not without namas. Are they ultimates? Only as ultimate as the act of separating what is not separate. > > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. > I agree with you. And repeated reflection on any model of dhamma will highlight that a model is only a model. A model of reality is only as good as it allows one to describe and predict how reality unfolds. Some useful questions to ask in relation to any model are "Which observed phenomena does it fail to explain?" and "Which phenomena does it decribe or predict which remain unobserved or are unobservable?" Kind Regards Herman > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47384 From: "egberdina" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:17pm Subject: Re: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? egberdina Hi Colette, > "...This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is > the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense." > > Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will ask: is > sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy my > eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not impact my > body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? What > about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? > I think you're making very worthwhile points here. You would have the vast majority of modern cognitive science on your side if you were to say that hearing is effectively a development of body sense. Hearing starts as the converting of vibrations into elctrical pulses, which is what happens all over your body, albeit in a much less specialised way. And more often than not, the hearing of low frequencies such as bass through a nice sub-woofer is actually the rattling of your rib cage. Don't play your Studio Tan too loud now , hear :-) Kind Regards Herman 47385 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:18pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm philofillet Hi Herman, Howard and all Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/8/05 6:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange > notion, isn't it ? > ============================ > Well said, Herman! And the Buddha has been described as the great > physician! Right? Also, the 4 noble truths have often been likened to a physician's > dealing with an illness: diagnosis (dukkha), cause (tanha/upadana), prognosis > (nibbana), and course of treatment (magga). 47386 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 7/8/05 6:27:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofman@b... writes: > Come to think of it, a doctor who doesn't prescribe is a very strange > notion, isn't it ? > ============================ > Well said, Herman! And the Buddha has been described as the great > physician! Right? Hi Howard and Herman I'm being a bit naughty here so apologies in advance!! If doctors who didn't truly understand the medical condition before them limited themselves to describing the condition instead of prescribing a treatment, the "unfavourable medical outcome" statistics might be a whole lot more palatable. (-: A great physician knows when NOT to treat as much as he knows when to treat. He *understands* the unfolding process and actions flow from that understanding. Understanding comes first. Where have I heard that before? Best wishes Andrew T 47387 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi RobertK, It is good to see that you're still around :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > What should one do in order to "fully understand" the right path > > instructions? I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > > instructions given by another being, who may not exist > ultimately :>)). > > > > > Dear Tep, > Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. I accept that it is impossible to capture reality with language, but I have some questions. 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, and no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that where" of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self (not as agent) and other, or self and not-self. 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels this arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? Kind Regards Herman 47388 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/8/05 9:19:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Herman, Howard and all Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. Metta, Phil ======================= That's a prescription in the same sense as "Get a bachelor's degree" is. For certain purposes it is required, but it cannot be directly done. For a high school graduate, to attain that goal, the prior goals of applying to a college, being accepted, and paying tuition need to be attained. For infants, far more is prescribed. For all achievable goals, however, there are sequences of directly attainable prescribed goals . For an analogy with regard to prescriptions, perhaps think of "Gain stream entry" as "Get a high school degree", think of "Gain once-returnership (Is that a word?!! ;-) as "Get a bachelor's degree", think of "Gain non-returnership" as "Get a master's degree", and think of "Gain arahanthood" as "Get a doctorate". At any stage, there are directly achievable prescribed actions, but order is essential, and no prescribed action can be taken uintil the conditions for taking that action have been satisfied. We start where we are, and do what we can. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47389 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/8/05 9:54:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Hi Howard and Herman I'm being a bit naughty here so apologies in advance!! If doctors who didn't truly understand the medical condition before them limited themselves to describing the condition instead of prescribing a treatment, the "unfavourable medical outcome" statistics might be a whole lot more palatable. (-: A great physician knows when NOT to treat as much as he knows when to treat. He *understands* the unfolding process and actions flow from that understanding. Understanding comes first. Where have I heard that before? Best wishes Andrew T ========================== The Buddha knew first hand what was what. What books did he study? (Yeah, I know, there was Dipankara Buddha! ;-) Of course, understanding comes first, but the most important understanding is that of WHAT TO DO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47390 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:20pm Subject: Re: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? rjkjp1 Dear Colette, All rupas arise in groups. Sound(sadda) rupa must come togther with other rupas- including pathavi(hardness). When hearing only the element of sadda is known. However,pathavi- present in the same group as the sound- is contacting the body base at the same time and thus can impact(and even damage) the physical area supporting the ear base. Robertk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Hi group, > > an interesting phrase came up in Nina's e-book: > > Part I, chapter 2, p.2: > > "there is no moment without feeling When there is not pleasant feeling > or nupleasant feeling, there is indifferent feeling. It is difficult to > know what indifferent feeling is. So long as we cannot distinguish nama > from rupa we cannot know precisely the characteristic of feeling and > thus we cannot know indifferent feeling either." > > No chance of ever being aloof from feeling. Lets say body- consciousness. > > Now lets move to p.3 > > "...This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow'; there is > the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense." > > Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will ask: is > sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy my > eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not impact my > body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? What > about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? > > cool thoughts huh? Oh don't worry in my youth while working sex magik I > was refered to as THE BRACKET CREEP. Maybe a good place to find my > defiintion would be The Illuminatis Triology the chapter with the > heading THE SNAFU PRINCIPLE. I am defined below it in the piece about > THE DAMNED THING. > > toodles, > colette 47391 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:32pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 Dear Herman, Thanks for your questions, I reply after each one: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >> > > > Robert: Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely an > > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and live > > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being who > > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Herman: I accept that it is impossible to capture reality with language, but I > have some questions. > > 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? __________________ We is a concept used to describe the different streams of khandhas. __________________________________________- > > 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, and > no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that where" > of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self (not as > agent) and other, or self and not-self. _______________ Hearing occurs at the ear base, seeing at the eye base, smelling at the nose base, thining at the mind base etc. Not sure about your question about distinguishing self or not-self? > _______________________________ > 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all > there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels this > arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of > conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? > > Kind Regards ____________ The conditions are themselves khandhas. Sankhara khandha includes tanha (desire)and upadana (graspaing)and avijja(ignorance):these are the factors that spin the wheel of dependent origination. Please ask if you want more clarification, this is an important topic. RobertK > > > Herman 47392 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Re: Nimitta: Same sign with whatever object ... buddhistmedi... Ven. Samahita (and all )- Thank you for being kind enough to answer my question in details. > > Tep: Please explain the sign of calm and the sign of concentration, > > resulting in onepointedness, for the 32 objects. > Ven. S : > The signs of calm and concentration are not different when > contemplating these 32 or any other objects (except visual): > > The 'sign' functions like this: > When 'accidentally' absorbed momentarily, one might > note the mental characteristics of this fleeting state and > think "Ohhh: how about this, what a calm, what a focus..." > > This remembrance is itself the 'sign', which one then can > direct back to, return to, search and reach, since now one > knows what to look out after. The 'sign' is like 'a key', which > when you find it (again), can open the door (again) to unified > absorption. Or the 'sign' is like a way you have been on before > & therefore can follow again to the same destination: absorption. > > There is these 8 stages during breathing meditation: > 1: Counting the breaths in-out: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 to 10 & then 1-1, again etc. > 2: Connecting the breaths in-out: 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 to 10 & then 1-2, again etc. > 3: Touching the steady state. (momentarily, repeatedly) > 4: Fixing the steady state. (anchoring, and thus prolonging) > 5: Observing the steady state. (now steadily absorbed) > 6: Turning away (to insight object: Impermanence, Fading, etc.) > 7: Purifying and refining this steady state. > 8: Reviewing it after emerging from absorption. > > The beginner reach stage 1-3 for a long time. > When having touched absorption momentarily > and repeatedly the job is to fix it, & stabilize it... > This is where the skill in directing 'back' to this > same experience, same 'sign' as when one first > 'entered', since this itself triggers 'entry' again > and again with increasing facility... > Tep: I am not sure I clearly understand your explanation of the 'sign' and the meditation procedure above. Is it correct to say that the above 8-stage breathing meditation procedure is a samatha bhavana for achieving absorbtion? Does "steady state" in Step 5 mean a jhana state, say cognizance without hindrances and with no vitakka & vicara? Is the sign, which is the "remembrance" of the previously learned absorbtion, a perception(sanna) -- a memory? > Ven. S : > It is like the Pavlows dogs, which was conditioned > by hearing a bell when fed, to later salivate only > when hearing the bell. > > So also the meditator: He couple or conditions > the experience or remembrance of the 'sign' > to entry into absorption. Later he just need to > direct mind back to remembering the sign then > he 'automatically enters absorption, like the dogs > 'automatically salivated when hearing the bell. > > So the sign is the same whatever one meditates on > both before and after (if ever) entry into a unified > state. > Tep: Once the meditator has learned the sign, how should he condition it to occur again next time to lead him to absorbtion? I don't understand "he just need to direct mind back to remembering the sign". Is it necessary that he always starts with stage1 every time? "Turning away" in stage 6 is switching ("emerging from absorption") to vipassana. But what is the object the meditator contemplates the charateristics of? Respectfully, Tep =========== 47393 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 10:21pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > The Buddha knew first hand what was what. What books did he study? (Yeah, > I know, there was Dipankara Buddha! ;-) > Of course, understanding comes first, but the most important > understanding is that of WHAT TO DO. Hi Howard I detect a difference of emphasis. To me, the idea of "WHAT TO DO" is saturated with a concept of self/doer. Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. Dhamma is not about WHAT TO DO but HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN. Understanding of the latter helps condition subsequent thoughts, speech and actions and no "doer" can stand in its path and declare "Let this not be!" You and Herman take the analogy of the Great Physician too far. Best wishes Andrew T 47394 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Kom's ordination news and message... sarahprocter... message from Kom, who'll soon be ordaining (July 17th at the Marble Temple in Bangkok, I believe), before moving to a temple in the north in Chengrai. S. =============================== Hi Jon, It's happenning and fortunately, other people are taking care of all the details. My only words to others on DSG are, Dhamma is the greatest blessing in my life - I wish you all study the texts, have wise considerations, follow the teachings with wisdom, and may you all reach where you want to be. If I have done anything to offend anybody, please do forgive me, and I promise I won't (or will try not to) do it again... My dhamma name is something like Tikkapanno, meaning sharp panna, which goes along with my Thai name, which means a sharp knife. The date you travel I think will be during vassa, so my being in Chiangrai as a monk won't help :-). Maybe next time... Thanks again for the jataka you got me - I found many joy with the two books I have (partly) read.... kom On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:53:46 +0800, "Jonothan Abbott" said: > Hi Kom > > How are your ordination plans going? <....> 47395 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 8, 2005 11:37pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 244 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (r) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] As we have seen, uddhacca accompanies each akusala citta, it accompanies lobha-múla-citta, dosa-múla-citta and moha-múlacitta. There are two types of moha-múla-citta, one is associated with doubt and one is associated with restlessness. The fact that one type of moha-múla-citta is called “associated with restlessness”, uddhacca-sampayutta, does not mean that restlessness does not arise with the type of moha-múla-citta which is associated with doubt. The second type of moha-múla-citta is called “associated with restlessness” in order to differentiate it from the first type of moha-múla-citta which is associated with doubt. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47396 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------------ H: > Okay. Well, we disagree on this, unless I just don't get what you mean by "formal practice". ------------------ I mean anything done in the belief that the Buddha's teaching can be practised in the future - rather than in the present one billionth of a second. --------------------------------------- H: > Ken, I assure you that the practice needed for "entering" jhanas does not come naturally. In fact, the Dhamma doesn't come naturally at all. It goes against the stream, against the flow, against the grain. What comes "naturally" for the most part is following our cravings, being led around by the nose by the defilements. -------------------------------------- It is panna that goes against the flow, and panna is always accompanied by joy or equanimity. -------------------- <. . .> H:> So, are you advocating that nobody except adepts should go forth, for example? -------------------- I take your point, and I should modify the example I gave. Some people *regardless of whether they are wise or not so wise* are suited to developing insight while living the homeless life. Others are more suited to the household life. So I should simply have said, a person to whom the homeless life is unnatural should not take it up in the expectation it will make him wise. ------------- KH: > > *anything* done with the idea of gaining something for oneself (even gaining something wholesome) is done for the wrong reason. ......... H: > So don't eat, Ken, don't sleep, and don't take medicine. ;-) Oh, yes - also don't work. ------------- I would be better advised to continue my normal, law-abiding daily- life, but to know that akusala is different from kusala, lobha is different from alobha, and so on. --------------------------- H: > Okay. But my question remains: Are you claiming that you and others on DSG do not want detachment? --------------------------- We are of the opinion - based on our Dhamma studies - that attachment to detachment (and attachment to the idea of detachment) is a bad thing. Even so, there are bound to be many akusala moments with attachment to the idea of detachment. Everyone has occasional kusala moments in which there is always detachment. In the following split second, there can be attachment to detachment. But if we have developed a little right understanding, there will be fewer conditions for that akusala moment to arise. ---------------- KH: > > To counsel against making right effort would be like saying, "The flood is crossed by standing still." It would be far better to counsel, "There are only dhammas, and all dhammas are without self." .......... H: > Mmm, mmm. I'm so glad you said that, because now I'm liberated! ;-) ----------------- :-) In a way, we are all liberated: "Mere suffering exists: no sufferer is found." (Vis. XVI) ------------ H: > do you consider it irrelevant what the *nature* of that cetana is? Not all volition is the same. Not all is kusala/useful/wholesome. Some volition bears bitter fruit. ------------- The volition that accompanies wrong view is the worst volition of all, and so the volition that accompanies right view must be the best. Which of those two volitions is present when we think or act in the belief we can control dhammas? I'm sorry if I have missed the exact point you are making, but this emphasis you keep placing on volition can only (it seems to me) strengthen ideas of a controlling self. Ken H 47397 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:13am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Phil and (Howard), > Hi Herman, Howard and all > > Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - > but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription > prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of > enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in > the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. > There's a time honoured tradition of answering a question with a question :-) Does the Buddha prescribe to go and win the lottery? All the best Herman 47398 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi RobertK, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman, > Thanks for your questions, > I reply after each one: > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > >> > > > > > Robert: Being or person does not exist at all, ever. There is merely > an > > > arising and passing away of khandhas, aggregates. > > > We need concepts such as person, Robert, Tep, to communicate and > live > > > but without understanding that 'there is a path, but no being > who > > > walks the path' the Buddhist way cannot be properly appreciated. > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Herman: I accept that it is impossible to capture reality with > language, but I > > have some questions. > > > > 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? > > __________________ > We is a concept used to describe the different streams of khandhas. > __________________________________________- > If I understand your answer correctly, it can be used to clarify what I meant in the next question about self and not-self. If there are different streams of khandas, then the stream with which there is identification is me, and all the other streams are not me. There are events that happen in this stream (me), and there are events that happen in other streams (not me). That's what I meant below, but I wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. (I hope I am not misconstruing you :-)) > > > > 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, > and > > no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that > where" > > of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self > (not as > > agent) and other, or self and not-self. > _______________ > Hearing occurs at the ear base, seeing at the eye base, smelling at > the nose base, thining at the mind base etc. Not sure about your > question about distinguishing self or not-self? > > > > _______________________________ > > 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all > > there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels > this > > arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of > > conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? > > > > Kind Regards > ____________ > The conditions are themselves khandhas. Sankhara khandha includes > tanha (desire)and upadana (graspaing)and avijja(ignorance):these are > the factors that spin the wheel of dependent origination. > Please ask if you want more clarification, this is an important > topic. I am not sure of all the ramifications of what you say here. It seems to allow for tanha, upadana and avijja being conditions for their own arising. I'll have to ponder some more on this. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47399 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: >> > > 1] What is the "we" that needs concepts etc? > > > > __________________ > > We is a concept used to describe the different streams of khandhas. > > __________________________________________- > > > > If I understand your answer correctly, it can be used to clarify what > I meant in the next question about self and not-self. If there are > different streams of khandas, then the stream with which there is > identification is me, and all the other streams are not me. There are > events that happen in this stream (me), and there are events that > happen in other streams (not me). That's what I meant below, but I > wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. (I hope I > am not misconstruing you :-)) > _______________ Dear Herman, You are exactly right. The Buddha's teaching of anatta is not that all is one and that we cannot distinguish between different streams of khandhas. What anatta means is that for each stream nothing lasts even for a second- there is a ceasless arising and passing away of nama and rupa. Each stream has different conditioning factors, different degrees of tanha and avijja- and even these conditioning factors are constantly being added to (or, if insight is being developed, erased.) > > > > > > > 2] Are you saying that there is no locus, no "where" of happening, > > and > > > no possibility of distinguishing between "this where" and "that > > where" > > > of happening, which is the same as distinguishing between self > > (not as > > > agent) and other, or self and not-self. > > _______________ > > Hearing occurs at the ear base, seeing at the eye base, smelling at > > the nose base, thining at the mind base etc. Not sure about your > > question about distinguishing self or not-self? > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > > 3] If there is merely khandas arising and passing away, is that all > > > there is? Would you say that the conditions/causality that fuels > > this > > > arising and passing away "are"? If so, is the reality of > > > conditions/causality different to the reality of khandas? > > > > > > Kind Regards > > ____________ > > The conditions are themselves khandhas. Sankhara khandha includes > > tanha (desire)and upadana (graspaing)and avijja(ignorance):these are > > the factors that spin the wheel of dependent origination. > > Please ask if you want more clarification, this is an important > > topic. > _______________________ > I am not sure of all the ramifications of what you say here. It seems > to allow for tanha, upadana and avijja being conditions for their own > arising. I'll have to ponder some more on this. _________ In fact they do condition their subsequent rearising. it is like developing a habit. Robertk 47400 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:57am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Andrew, I'll readily accept that you are indeed naughty :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > The Buddha knew first hand what was what. What books did he > study? (Yeah, > > I know, there was Dipankara Buddha! ;-) > > Of course, understanding comes first, but the most important > > understanding is that of WHAT TO DO. > > Hi Howard > > I detect a difference of emphasis. To me, the idea of "WHAT TO DO" > is saturated with a concept of self/doer. I think there are some discussions at dsg that go nowhere when some people argue from the perspective of what they think it would or should be like if they were free of the self delusion, with people who argue from the perspective they find themselves in here and now, as agents inheriting the results of their own actions. Whatever we think from time to time, daily life still happens to all of us. Would you agree that the Buddha's teachings to lay folk ensconsed in the householders life is not along the lines of anatta but about perfecting morality - What to do and What not to do. And would you agree that the Vinaya, for those further along the path than us, is all about what to do and what not to do? Kind Regards Herman > > Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* > a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED > volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. > > Dhamma is not about WHAT TO DO but HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN. > Understanding of the latter helps condition subsequent thoughts, > speech and actions and no "doer" can stand in its path and > declare "Let this not be!" > > You and Herman take the analogy of the Great Physician too far. > > Best wishes > Andrew T 47401 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Hi all, I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different teachings. It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-))." I would change the first two sentences to say, "We must be careful not to fall into the trap of stretching both views in order to achieve the stated objective." CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 02 July, 2005 08:08 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] Dan Dan D. wrote: >Hi Jon, >You ask a great question -- one that I think is central to the >problem. I think you are right in your implication that a doctrine of >anatta without dhammas is not conducive to any development of >insight -- it would more resemble a dead fatalism. > >The Christian doctrine of anatta does apply to dhammas; however, I >think the vast majority of Christians reject the doctrine in its >purest formulations in Christian terminology. Luther, Paul, Jesus, >and Augustine are four that consider it central and discuss it at >great length. I do intend to discuss this in more detail, but I have >a lot on my plate now and can't see doing much with it for a few >months. > 47402 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] dacostacharles Hi Jon, You asked: "What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison?" Wisdom -- developing knowledge and understanding of both. You stated: "There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go." If you are truly selfless, there is no clinging in the Buddhist sense of the word. But, any way even if you are cling and selfless (alone either path) you are not suffering do to your experiences and you are not intestinally causing others to suffer. This fulfils a mission of both Christians and Buddhists. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 02 July, 2005 10:11 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon and Dan, > >Sorry for butting in, especially when I have no clue what are the real issues. > >But I like seeing the possibility of comparing the two views on selflessness. It can be argued that when you reach this level in both religions you are beyond developing insight, you already have it. > > There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go. What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison? <...> 47403 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:39am Subject: To Rob & All...re Ven Suvanno balancing_life Hi Rob & All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: Hi Alice, Ven Suvanno's temple is in Penang. Jalan Ayer Hitam past the roundabout on the way to Penang hill, turn left after the white apartment building, park at the end of the street and climb the hill to the small Vihara on your right. (Directions are approximate, one of your friends at the Mahindarama Temple should be able to give more precise directions). It is true that Ven Suvanno is old (86) and not well. He has retired from public speaking, but he is a delight to visit. You can ask him for a set of his CDs. Sister Metta is usually around and could get a set for you as well. I suggest that you visit him some day before 11:30 so that you can offer lunch dana. ===== Sheesh! Shame on me...when you mentioned Ven. Suvanno's name, i remembered his name, cos his name was so familiar and when you mentioned the "Hokkien" CD's, i should have guessed that he is from Penang also, cos if he is a KLlite, then his teachings would probably be in Cantonese. Just now, when i went to the Mahindarama office to donate some dana, to the various projects that they have, plus "IMO", ie, In Memory Of, i met a Mr. Quah, who is also one of the volunteers administrators of the temple, and when i asked him about Venerable Suvanno, he gladly drew me a map on how to get there, as well as instructions on where to park and where not to go. When i mentioned that perhaps i should buy vegetarian lunch box dana for him, before i go and see him, Mr. Quah said that he is not feeling so good/well and needs somebody to take care of him now, and asked me to buy fruits instead, cos Ven Suvanno has a certain food allergy. So, again when i mentioned that i wanted to see him to ask for his teachings in the CD's you mentioned, he said that, if i am unable to get it from Ven Suvanno, then he could get it for me, but he has to look around for it first. ====== Is this the CD by Imee Ooi? If so, it is one of the most beautiful CDs I have ever heard. If you don't have this CD by Imee Oooi, I strongly recommend you get it (it can be bought from Sukhi Hontu in Penang). Yep, it is & i do have the cassette only, as my car only has a cassette player and one side, it has Imee Ooi singing strictly in Pali & on the reverse side, it has the English translations, after each line of lyric is sung. BTW, FYI, Sukhi Hontu has moved from Air Itam to Gottlieb Road, to one of the shop houses, very prominient from the main road, just opposite one of the Chinese Girls School, but so far, i haven't been inside it yet. ===== Celebrate her life, don't dwell on her death. The mental states of you and her father are creating your kamma. Let your niece be a condition for positive, healthy mental states to create good kamma! ===== That's my problem...i am not dwelling on her death, but dwelling on my guilty conscience...i was just chaffeuring her around (just helping to save her father's second marriage...long story, and very unbuddhist of me to tell it), never did really have the time to know her properly and regretting that i was sorta unavailable to her mentally, although i was with her & her sister physically...still blaming myself, that she would have or should have come to me, with her problems, as her mum is a strict disciplinarian (although both her mum & stepfather also loves her), and i never thought that school kids would have such a problem and as she & her sis are so docile, i never thought that she would even encounter such a problem. Although her stepfather has a daughther with her mother, which means she has another step-sister, but her stepfather loves them both, as his own daugthers even though he did not mind that they called him "Uncle D....". instead of Daddy or Father. On her birthday, he bought her a CD on her favourite group, the S Club 7 and i know cos she brought it along to listen on my computer, whilst playing computer games, also bought by her step-dad, when i asked her who bought it for her. ===== Sorry, can't help you on this. If it is in Sanskrit, it is a Mahayana Sutra and I would not be familiar with it. Metta, Rob M :-) ===== That's ok, Rob, tried searching in the internet, without success, so far last year, but will try again, when & if i have the time & facilities to do it...i still have problems discerning, between Pali & Sanskrit. The last time i wrote, i have forgotten how slow my connection/transmission is at home...it's so slow just like a snail's pace...lol...unlike my computer at the office which is so fast, cos we are using streamyx (broadband), whereas here at home, i have to use dialup -Jaring...was just so frusfrated, that i am about to give up...minutes ticking away, just to open one yahoo message or one yahoogroup message. :} AliceInTodayIsThePenang'sGovernor'sBirthdayLand P/S - Today, since its a holiday here (although it does not matter to us cos we are working only a five day week), the hall of the main temple was filled to the brim, and when at last the monk read the list of the dearly departed at the dining table, the list was so long, that i think there were about 20 or more "IMO"s. PPS - What is a Vihara? 47404 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is real ... dacostacharles Thanks Connie and Sarah, But, Connie, now you are going to have to give me your translations of: citta, cetasika, naama, and ruupa. Does that complete the list? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: connie To: dsg Sent: Friday, 03 June, 2005 17:52 Subject: [dsg] Re: What is real ... Hi Charles, Sarah, > I am curious, what does the abidarma list as real? .... S: cittas, cetasikas, rupas (conditioned dhammas) and nibbana. This is the same as the khandhas and nibbana. Anything else? Connie: No. 1 citta 52 cetasika 1 nibbaana so, 54 naama and 28 ruupa (4 primary + 24 derived**) gives 82 paramattha dhammas. <...> 47405 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 1:47am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2 - MODULE 2.6 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (1) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: Basic Paper 2 MODULE 2.6 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (1) What Kamma Is Kamma is a Pali word meaning action. It is called Karma in Sanskrit. In its general sense Kamma means all good and bad actions. It covers all kinds of intentional actions whether mental, verbal or physical thoughts, words and deeds. In its ultimate sense Kamma means all moral and immoral volitions. The Buddha says: `Mental volition, O Bhikkhus, is what I call action (Kamma). Having volition, one acts by body, speech and thought." Kamma is neither fatalism nor a doctrine of predetermination. The past influences the present but does not dominate it, for Kamma is past as well as present. The past and present influence the future. The past is a background against which life goes on from moment to moment. The future is yet to be. Only present moment exists and the responsibility of using the present moment for good or for ill lies with each individual. Every action produces an effect and it is a cause first and effect afterwards. We therefore speak of Kamma as the law of cause and effect. Throwing a stone, for example, is an action. The stone strikes a glass window and breaks it. The breakage is the effect of the action of throwing, but it is not the end. The broken window is now the cause of further trouble. Some of one's money will have to go to replace it, and one is thus unable to save the money or to buy with it what one wants for some other purpose, and the effect upon one is a feeling of disappointment. This may make one irritable and if one is not careful, one may allow the irritability to become the cause of doing something else which is wrong and so on. There is no end to the result of action, no end to Kamma, so we should be very careful about our actions, so that their effect will be good. It is, therefore, necessary for us to do a good, helpful action that will return to us in good Kamma and make us strong enough to start a better Kamma. Throw a stone into a pond and watch the effect. There is a splash and a number of little rings appear round the place where the stone strikes. See how the rings grow wider and wider till they become too wide and too tiny for our eyes to follow. The little stone disturbs the water in the pond, but its work is not finished yet. When the tiny waves reach the edges of the pond, the water moves back till it pushes the stone that has disturbed it. The effects of our actions come back to us just as the waves do to the stone, and as long as we do our action with evil intention the new waves of effect come back to beat upon us and disturb us. If we are kind and keep ourselves peaceful, the returning waves of trouble will grow weaker and weaker till they die down and our good Kamma will come back to us in blessings. If we sow a mango seed, for instance, a mango tree will come up and bear mangoes, and if we sow a chili seed, a chilli plant will grow and produce chillies. The Buddha says: `According to the seed that's sown, So is the fruit ye reap therefrom, Doer of good gathers good, Doer of evil, evil reaps. Sown is the seed, and thou shalt taste the fruit thereof.' Samyutta Nikaya, Everything that comes to us is right. When anything pleasant comes to us and makes us happy, we may be sure that our Kamma has come to show us what we have done is right. When anything unpleasant comes to us, hurts us, or makes us unhappy, our Kamma has come to show us our mistake. We must never forget that Kamma is always just. It neither loves nor hates, neither rewards nor punishes. It is never angry, never pleased. It is simply the law of cause and effect. Kamma knows nothing about us. Does fire know us when it burns us? No, it is the nature of fire to burn, to give out heat. If we use it properly it gives us light, cooks our food for us or burns anything we wish to get rid of, but if we use it wrongly it burns our property and us. Its work is to burn and our job is to use it in the right way. We are foolish if we grow angry and blame it when it burns us because we have made a mistake. There are inequalities and manifold destinies for people in the world. One is, for example, inferior and another superior. One perishes in infancy and another at the age of eighty or a hundred. One is sick and infirm, and another strong and healthy. One is brought up in luxury and another in misery. One is born a millionaire, another a pauper. One is a genius and another an idiot. What is the cause of the inequalities that exist in the world? Buddhists cannot believe that this variation is the result of blind chance. Science itself is indeed all against the theory of Chance. In the world of the scientist all works in accordance with the laws of cause and effect. Neither can Buddhists believe that these inequalities of the world are due to a God-Creator. One of the three divergent views that prevailed at the time of the Buddha was: Whatsoever happiness or pain or neutral feeling the person experiences all that is due to the creation of a Supreme Deity. Anguttara Nikaya, Vol. I, Pg 158 Commenting on this fatalistic view the Buddha said: "So, then, owing to the creation of a Supreme Deity men, will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, abusive, babblers, covetous, malicious, and perverse in view. Thus for those who fall back on the creation of a God as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor necessity to do this deed or abstain from that deed." Referring to the naked ascetics who practised self-mortification, the Buddha said: "If, O Bhikkhus, beings experience pain and happiness as the result of God's creation, then certainly these naked ascetics must have been created by a wicked God, since they are at present experiencing such terrible pain. " Devadaha Sutta, No 101; Majjhima Nikaya, Vol. II, Pg 222 According to Buddhism the inequalities that exist in the world is due, to some extent, to heredity and environment and to a greater extent, to a cause or causes (Kamma), which are not only present but also proximate or remote past. Man himself is responsible for his own happiness and misery. He creates his own heaven and hell. He is master of his own destiny, child of his past and parent of his future. Questions In the Law of Kamma, good beget good, bad beget bad, and then good plus bad will beget what effect? What are the major similarities and differences between the Law of Kamma and the Theory of the Creator God? Answers (Module 2.5) Why Right Understanding is placed first among the others when in the order of development one begin with the sequence of Sila? In the actual development of Sila, Right Understanding is essential for one to know what is wholesome and what is not. Without Right Understanding on what is virtuous, one may have difficulties differentiating them. Whatever the sequences are, there is no superior among them because all the 8 Right paths are folded into one single path called the Noble Eight-fold Path. One important point to note as compare to the teachings of other religion is the Buddha recommended beside avoiding evils and doing good, one need to purify one's mind. Why? Avoiding evil does not necessary mean doing good. Neither is doing good does not necessary mean avoiding evil. These unique teachings of the Buddha is incomplete without the inclusion of the purification of the mind because in the final analysis of performing wholesome deeds, one need to have the Right Understanding and a clear mind on what one is doing. Such, realization of the true meaning can be achieved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 47406 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:15am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm philofillet Hi Herman, Howard , Sarah (*) and all > > Just running out the door - planning to write to Herman tonight - > > but I'll just drop a thought on you. If the Buddha's prescription > > prescribes being sotapanna (ie reaching the first stage of > > enlightenment) is that a prescription that we can try to follow in > > the way we follow a physician's prescription? Catch you later. > > > > There's a time honoured tradition of answering a question with a > question :-) Does the Buddha prescribe to go and win the lottery? > Hmm. That's a good question. There is a sutta that makes it clear that just being reborn a human is a long shot. The one about the yoke with a hole in it floating in the sea - the odds of a blind turtle (?) sticking his head through it are comparable (less?) than the odds of our being born human. And there are the memorable similes of the sea of tears we have cried through countless rebirths, and the mountain of bones that we have cast aside or something like that. So yes, the Buddha makes it clear that we have come through countless lives to be where we are. Does that mean that we are facing countless more? For me, that is implied, but I suppose it needn't be so. Tep used the metaphor of a casino to describe the way he sees the patient approach to mindfulness taught by A Sujin. I can see why people think that, but when there is a moment of appreciating the value of a moment of awareness, personally speaking, concern about how long it will take really falls away. So what of the turban on fire, the samvega? Moments of knowing urgency are enough - it can't be maintained, in my opinion, without wrong view involved. Howard, I think you laid down the approach through the Degrees very well. My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet apply to us* Any sutta in which it is said, for example, "the noble instructed disciple experiences revulsion etc" is *not* referring to worldlings. I can imagine people sitting down and trying to generate revulsion towards the khandas thinking that the Buddha had told them to. Clearly it's a description of an advanced stage of insight, not a prescription. But I agree that there are suttas which can indeed be read as prescriptions - prescriptions that will lead to a lengthening of the illness if they are applied without understanding, I guess. (*)Tonight I heard in a talk Sarah say that she thought if people plug away with wrong view, just accumulating clinging, it would be better for them if they had never heard of Buddhism. I disagree.A this point I would agree with the woman in the talk who responded that right understanding can arise gradually conditioned by reading and reflecting on Dhamma, even with wrong view early on. I think of my own experience with metta. If I hadn't tried to generate metta, I wouldn't have learned that it can't be generated just by thinking about it. And I also think that Dhamma with what I consider to be wrong view still helps people to be happier and less harmful in the world (eg trying to generate metta) even if the wrong view practice is furthering their stay in samsara by strengthening clinging to self that can control things. I think Dhamma can be healing and helpful for people even when it is not pure. So in the Ajahn Brahm passage, I think he suggest that compassion is something that can be tapped in to at will. That is wrong view, I believe, but it does no harm. So does taking precepts and clinging to the idea of being a person who keeps the precepts. Again, the right understanding is that it is only the moment of abstaining from transgression that is truly keeping a precept, but the thinking about it doesn't do any harm - except in being an obstacle in the person's progress towards deeper liberation - and the suffering they will have when they learn that transgression or abstention from transgression is conditioned beyond their control. (Which doesn't mean that we are helpless in the face of temptation - abstention can be developed.) I am happy that I have accumulations that seem to be guiding me toward a patient approach to Dhamma, without notions of control, without desires to generate kusala that doesn't arise through conditions. But Ajahn Brahm's style of willful kusala doesn't do any harm in the world, I would say. Not my cup of tea, mind you. But I will say that I think *he* was being mischievous when he said people who criticize his approach are advocating immorality. That's nonsense. For example, we know enough to learn to tolerate the conditioned lobha, dosa, mana etc that inevitably arise in daily life - that is not immorality - but I have never heard anyone here say tha we can be comfortable with akusala kamma pattha - the evil deeds that are moral transgressions. (I know that it it's possible that he *wasn't* referring to DSG! :)) Herman, I was going to write back to you in that other thread, but tomorrow or the next day I guess. Thanks for your reply - great food for thought in there. Metta, Phil 47407 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:34am Subject: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] buddhistmedi... Hi, Charles - How are you doing? > Charles D: > I would change the first two sentences to say, "We must be careful not to fall into the trap of stretching both views in order to achieve the stated objective." > Isn't it true that most people who have self-views love to stretch the teachings, or anything else including the laws, "in order to achieve the stated objective"? They all have fun doing that (especially when they win). Best wishes, Tep ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi all, > > I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the similarities > between 2 different teachings. It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-))." > > I would change the first two sentences to say, "We must be careful not to fall into the trap of stretching both views in order to achieve the stated objective." > > CharlesD 47408 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:33am Subject: Understanding is the Chief ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Understanding is the Fourth Mental Perfection: Understanding penetrates, illuminates and guides right. Concentration is the proximate cause of Understanding. Understanding is the proximate cause of Equanimity. Understanding is the manifestation of Concentration. Only understanding comprehends the meaning & essence. Understanding purifies the other mental perfections: Energy acquires purpose only, when guided by Understanding. Only fortified by Understanding, is determination unshakeable. Only Understanding can patiently tolerate other beings abuse. Only Understanding induce indifference towards gain & loss. Only Understanding can secure both own and others welfare. Just as red sandalwood is reckoned as the best of all scented woods, even & exactly so is the ability to understand reckoned the supreme among all the mental qualities, that are the links to self-awakening, leading to enlightenment. SN V 48-55 Indriya-samyutta And of what kind, friends, is this evaluating ability of Understanding ? In this, friends, the Noble learner is possessed of direct knowledge about the arising and ceasing of all phenomena, which is a Noble insight, a penetrating & ultimate understanding, that gradually realizes and leads to the utter elimination of all Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the Cause of Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the End of Misery. The Noble learner comprehends, as it really is: Thus is the Way to end Misery. This, friends, is the discriminating ability of Understanding ... SN V 48-10 Indriya-samyutta Of minor importance, is the loss of family and wealth... Catastrophic among losses is the loss of Understanding. Of minor consequence, is the increase of family and wealth. Supreme among gains is the increase of comprehension... Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that. AN I 14-5 When the Noble friend avoids ignorant persons, but instead cultivates, frequents and honors persons who comprehend, teach and review the effects of profound knowledge, then is the ability to understand refined in these three aspects... When the Noble friend is thus leaving ignorance all behind, there is development of the ability to Understand. When the Noble friend is developing the ability to understand, then ignorance is left all behind. Mutual is this enhancement. Path of Discrimination A learned man who due to his great understanding, despises those of little learning, is like a blind man walking around with a lamp in his high hand... Theragatha 1026 Happy indeed are those possessing nothing... Those who have won Understanding, cling to nothing. While those attached to family, friends & property both possessed & obsessed - are as tied to torture... Udana II 6 What sort of person is released by Understanding? (Panna-Vimutti) Here a person without experiencing all the 8 stages of absorption, anyway eliminates all mental fermentations completely, after having perceived them through insight. Such person is said to be released by Understanding. Designation of Human Types 31 Just as the great Ocean slopes down gradually, deepens gradually, inclines gradually, and not abruptly like an abyss, even so Paharada, is this teaching and discipline: a gradual training (anupubbasikkha), a gradual practice (anupubbakiriya), a gradual progress (anupubbapatipada); One do not suddenly penetrate to the highest Understanding... Anguttara Nikaya II 47 Asking Questions logically leads to Understanding: As a bhikkhu walking for alms beg from both low, middle and high folks, if one search & ask both slightly, moderately and highly wise teachers, then the insight of the Buddhas shall be yours. The Basket of Conduct, Cariyapitaka ______________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47409 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/9/05 1:21:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Hi Howard I detect a difference of emphasis. To me, the idea of "WHAT TO DO" is saturated with a concept of self/doer. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: If that's how it is for you, then you should avoid that teminology. It is not that way for me. (Oops, dare "I" say "me"?) For me, doing is not a code word for self, but pertains to volition and volitional action. In order to write to you this moment, multi-millions of mindstates involving specific acts of volition are occurring. Without them, there would be no communication going on. ---------------------------------------------- Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I won't speak that way for three reasons: 1) That's not how people speak, including the Buddha, 2) Such language encourages inaction, and 3) Such language leads to the mere pretence that one is free of sense of self. ---------------------------------------------- Dhamma is not about WHAT TO DO but HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It is that, and more essentially it is about carrying out useful activities prescribed by the Buddha. (If you say "carried out by whom", I would say that this has to be understood conventionally, and if it is not understood that way, then the misunderstander is in danger.) ----------------------------------------------- Understanding of the latter helps condition subsequent thoughts, speech and actions and no "doer" can stand in its path and declare "Let this not be!" You and Herman take the analogy of the Great Physician too far. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I suggest you re-read suttas to see how far the Buddha took ordinary language in talking to worldlings. ----------------------------------------------- Best wishes Andrew T ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47410 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Robert) - In a message dated 7/9/05 3:45:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: That's what I meant below, but I wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. ===================== As best I have come to understand it, Buddhism most definitely acknowledges distinguishable streams. (I don't believe that any of them are separate in the sense of being independent of each other, but that is another issue.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47411 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/9/05 8:16:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Howard, I think you laid down the approach through the Degrees very well. My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet apply to us* Any sutta in which it is said, for example, "the noble instructed disciple experiences revulsion etc" is *not* referring to worldlings. I can imagine people sitting down and trying to generate revulsion towards the khandas thinking that the Buddha had told them to. Clearly it's a description of an advanced stage of insight, not a prescription. But I agree that there are suttas which can indeed be read as prescriptions - prescriptions that will lead to a lengthening of the illness if they are applied without understanding, I guess. ======================== Thank you for the clarification. You point is well made, and well taken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47412 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:18am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - To formulate your thought from the paramattha-dhamma principles, mostly rejecting conventional speech and concepts(pannatti), is one extreme . To reject every principle based on ultimate realities and use only conventional speech and concepts is another extreme. <"Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta> Htoo, asking the following questions shows an extreme view of an extremely confused person [SN XLIV.10]. Did The Buddha exist? Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? Do Dhamma exist? Did and do arahats exist? Did I exist? Will I be there in the future? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? How do we avoid these extreme views? Simply adopt the following right views: 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga Sutta] 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] Best wishes (and unlimited Karuna), Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > Tep continued: > > It is clear that understanding comes first for every action, if a > good result is expected. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I was thinking on 'expectation'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >(snipped) > Tep wrote: > > I assume that there is a being initially to learn the > instructions given by another being, who may not exist > ultimately :>)). > > Htoo: > > Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. > > And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written > on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been > posted here. > > Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no > indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. > (snipped) > > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47413 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:42am Subject: Only 1 single 'Sign' = 'key' is neccessary... bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear Tep Sastri who wrote: >Is it correct to say that the above 8-stage breathing meditation >procedure is a samatha bhavana for achieving absorption? Yes, first calm, then momentary concentration, then access and then finally absorption. >Does "steady state" in Step 5 mean a jhana state, say cognizance >without hindrances and with no vitakka & vicara? "steady state" in Step 5 mean 1st jhana state with vitakka & vicara >Is the sign, which is the "remembrance" of the previously learned >absorption, a perception(sanna) -- a memory? Yes indeed, all memories are past perceptions. >Tep: Once the meditator has learned the sign, how should He tries to remember the sign as lively as he can & vupti! Up goes the door to absorption and in he enters... When first in he can direct to any other object! >Is it necessary that he always starts with stage1 every time? Yes. "Turning away" in stage 6 is not emerging from absorption, but just a change in object, which mind then focuses unified on... Bhikkhu Sama-hita, Sri Lanka. 47414 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path?own upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 7/9/05 9:23:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... advocates the following wholesome and useful activities: 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga Sutta] 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] ========================== Wonderful, Tep! This Dhamma is so refreshing - so cleansing of spirit! And for us absurdly intellect-bound (and ego-bound!) cases, item # 2 is soooo important!!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47415 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path?own buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Howard - It is nice to receive such a joyful message from you: > Howard: Wonderful, Tep! This Dhamma is so refreshing - so cleansing of spirit! > And for us absurdly intellect-bound (and ego-bound!) cases, item # 2 is soooo important!!! > > With metta, > Howard > Best wishes, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 7/9/05 9:23:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... advocates the following wholesome and useful activities: > 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, > the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga > Sutta] > > 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending > yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the > Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- > term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] > > 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in > the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't > cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. > Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is > ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for > this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] > ========================== 47416 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 10:34am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - This week we study 2 paragraphs, 200 - 201. Please recall the last paragraph (#199) on the exercise of mindfulness and full awareness (sampajanna). It indicates that through the long in- and out-breaths, the bhikkhu "understands" unification and non-distraction of the mind and recognizes the arising and passing-away characteristics of the three namas: vedana, sanna, and vitakka. It is clear that concentration (unification and non-distraction of the mind) is established first through the first object (vatthu) of anapanasati, which is "long in-breaths and out-breaths", then understanding and realization of the characteristics of the namas follow. Thus, understanding is clearly conditioned by concentration. The Pali for 'recognition' (chosen by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, the translator) is 'vijjaa', and that for 'recognized' is 'vidita'. 'Arising' is 'uppaada', and 'arisen' is 'uppanna'. 'Appearance of terror' is "bhayat' upatthaana". 200. How are feelings(vedana) recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized. How is the appearance(establishment = uppatthaana) of feeling recognized? When he gives attention(manasikara) [to feeling] as impermanent, the appearance(establishment) as exhaustion is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as painful, the appearance (establishment) as terror is recognized; when he gives [it] attention as not self, the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized. How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of craving there is a cessation of feeling ...With the cessation of action(kamma) there is a cessation of feeling... The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of contact there is a cessation of feeling . Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of change(viparinaama), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how the subsiding of feeling is recognized. This is how feelings(vedana) are recognized(vidita) as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. 201. How are perceptions(sanna) recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? How is the arising of perception recognized? The arising of perception is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of perception ... With the arising of craving ... With the arising of contact ... [and so on as in para #200 up to the end]. < End of presentation for 7/9/05> Tep's Notes on Sati and Sampajanna : (sometimes, I use the term sampajanna to mean cognition or right knowledge) It is important to remember that there are 16 objects(vattthu) of the anapanasati bhavana (or 32 if you break it further according to in-breath and out-breath, i.e. 16x2 = 32). It is also important to recognize that even the first object, long in- & out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity as described in para 194 (the Thai version says that when upekkha is established, cognizance will move away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths). Recall from para 193 that mindfulness is established when the bhikkhu knows unification of cognizance and non-distraction through breathing in & out long. He is a mindful worker "by means of that mindfulness and that knowledge". Then in para 196 it is stated that with unification of cognizance sati "remains" at the object, and by means of "that sati and that knowledge" he contemplates the body as a body. We may also say that the first vatthu of anapanasati can be employed to condition sati and sampajanna to arise with equanimity. At this point I would say the bhikkhu has developed both samatha and vipassana. I look forward to hearing your comments as usual. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > My slow-but-sure-and-gladdened typing continues to paragraphs #197- > 199 for today. > > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate that body[the > seven contemplations]? He contemplates it as impermanent > 47417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... nilovg Hi Sarah, for a long time I had in mind that I wanted to write to Kom. Is there any address? Nina. op 09-07-2005 07:40 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > message from Kom, who'll soon be ordaining (July 17th at the Marble Temple > in Bangkok, I believe), before moving to a temple in the north in > Chengrai. S. > =============================== 47418 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 3:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: For me, doing is not a code > word for self, but pertains to volition and volitional action. In order to > write to you this moment, multi-millions of mindstates involving specific acts of > volition are occurring. Without them, there would be no communication going on. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > Why not start with "HOW DO THINGS HAPPEN"? If they happen *without* > a self/doer, and according to conditions (including CONDITIONED > volition), then WHAT TO DO starts to ring a little hollow. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I won't speak that way for three reasons: 1) That's not how people speak, > including the Buddha, 2) Such language encourages inaction, and 3) Such > language leads to the mere pretence that one is free of sense of self. > ---------------------------------------------- Hi Howard and Herman Thanks for your posts and sorry for not replying to each and every point. In fact, I might just take up Herman's espoused tradition of answering questions with questions and see where we get - or don't get. (-: I can imagine the 3 of us getting together and having a really great chat about life, the universe and everything. At some stage, the conversation would get around to weight - how much we each weigh, the price of a ton of wheat in the US and Australia etc. Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT that conversation about weight would *have to be* if we inhabited a planet without gravity! The Buddha was surrounded by atman-type religions. He taught anatta and in his scheme there was something called cetana which we are translating as "volition". Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT a discussion about volition *has to be* in an anatta-type scheme! When I encounter people ("myself" included!) who say "Oh, I accept that there is no self, but there *is* volition", it often strikes me that the volition being referred to has more of a footing in an atman- type context than in an anatta one. The Dhamma in this regard is so "difficult to see" that one can easily fall into the trap of making volition a substitute self. I do it all the time. IMHO all 3 baskets of the Pali Canon must properly be read at a deeper level simply because of this RADICAL teaching of anatta. Those who stop at the outer layers of the tree trunk never get to the heartwood. Anyway, so you both believe that the Buddha was a great physician and his Dhamma is a WHAT TO DO list. Fine. I think the following is an interesting question you may or may not like to ponder: How would your WHAT TO DO list be affected if the Suttas said "Right Concentration comes first" instead of "Right Understanding comes first"? I have a feeling that your WHAT TO DO lists wouldn't be altered much at all. Am I wrong? Why? [insert pot of honey here! (-:] Best wishes Andrew T 47419 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:51am Subject: Sesos con todo ksheri3 Good Morning Group, an interesting night's meditations, the main focus was Mental States: Part I, The Universals, 12 Cetasikas, Chapter 2, Feeling (Vedana). A very odd thing occured. As you will recall I mentioned earlier that "things were flowing smoothly" in relation to the e-book by Nina, as I was getting near to the end of the chapter I realized that I was copying notes in the same way as I copied notes in papers from one very astute PhD. and Dr. concerning the Lurianic kaballah. Oh yea, Nina, there is a strong connection here that I've found for myself, I hope it doesn't place any wonder in you. I enjoyed reading this this morning: "Can be learned behavior" -- my notes concerning the passage: "We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, it often seems to be the goal of our life. However, pleasant feeling cannot last and when it is gone we are sad" Just to show that I am not reading Nina's work strictly to criticize I'll say that I really like the paragraph on p.5 begining with: "The pleasant feeling which accompanies kusala citta is quite different from the pleasant feeling which accompanies lobha-mula- citta...." At this point I was awakening to my characteristic. What mainly struck me here was that in the case of this PhD & Dr. I was so focussed on the depth of his material, not only in the aspect of the level of education he exhibited and my ability to still comprehend the material, the fact that hit me as odd was that in his case I never got the chance to debate, discuss, etc. his work, yet here I have the opportunity to flat out confront my demons working that are working thru Nina. Before I finish this post I'd like to ask Nina: Your words "Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many defilements" My notes: "Why can't we change or upgrade the material of the Abhidhamma since they wrote this from a very shamanistic point of view?" Naturally I thought of the Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn where their material is in a state of flux on line and open to change by others. In fact the main priest at their California temple made the assertion that there might be value in an outsider examining their ceremonials and doing some checking on their efficacy. It was a long arugment about my credentials, if I had any, where my initiation took place, when, blah blah blah, and since I cannot or will not prove, substantiate my statements then I should cast overboard, blah blah blah. To which a colleague gave an ancient interpretation to the meaning of the Left Hand Path: assassins (or something to that effect) would conceal their weapons on the left while extending their right hand in friendship thus the negative connotations to the Left Hand Path as an evil manifestation. Now for Sarah and "Setting rolling The Wheel of Truth" If we notice the connection here with the Abhidhamma there might be some light shed on both documents and a deeper understanding. With the concept of Citta & Cetasika there is the truth that they arise and cessate, fall, at the same time: no sooner does the citta become a flash of enlightenment, see your local 4th of July fireworks special where the enlightenments flash in the sky and typically in a circular pattern before extinguishing themselves. This may be a result of the focus of attention, where at first it was upon reaching a certain goal and the operative meditator was leaving bread crumbs along the way like a lost waif in the forest so as to mark the path they took to get to where they were/are, but upon reaching the Citta and experiencing the flash of the fireworks in the mind the bread crumbs that marked your path have disappeared like the Cetasikas that substantiated the Citta. Interesting position to be in huh? What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?-type of thing. lol So in Samyutta Nikay LVI.11 "...Wheel of Truth" we find "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relingquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving." I once had rooms of fine furniture, china, crystal, blah blah blah that I got from my youth, upbringing, but one day in L.A. I just said: "there's no way out, it will never end, they will continually demand more and more from me..." So I just up and hit the road. Damn those baubles and trinkets. I have learned how to do this so very very well since 1981 that it's part of me. If ya don't believe me then look how much clothes I have that all came from the church and the dumpster. It really isn't that important since IT IS NOT ME MY SELF. Well, time is knocking me out of the game sortofspeak and for some odd reason I think I hear money screaming bloody murder but I can't be sure if it is money or not. I don't delusion that money has a voice and or vocal chords. So, until later today. toodles, colette 47420 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:46am Subject: Re: Did somebody say Beetle-juice? ksheri3 Good Morning Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > I think you're making very worthwhile points here. You would have the > vast majority of modern cognitive science on your side if you were to > say that hearing is effectively a development of body sense. colette: are you saying that hearing is a conditioned function of the body? Take for instance a newborn child. Does that child need to be schooled (conditioned) in how to hear or does the child naturally hear? ----------- Hearing > starts as the converting of vibrations into elctrical pulses, which is > what happens all over your body, colette: my playful side is showing since it seems as though you've taken away the opportunity I had to make a splendid joke of a practicle nature. I was going to eventually confront those who confronted myself with: does that mean that I can't hear light or see sound (or something to that effect, I was going to place the body sense with a different rupa and see how it played out but you've gone and taken the steam out of my bubble, LOL). "Curses Batman" ;-)) I've known that for instance seeing is more than just through the eye or hearing through the ear, both are cognitive functions of the brain. In fact while a member of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton IL I used to ride my back to the Olcott Library nearly every day, in the summers, back in '84-'87. This is where I learned of the practice of pranayama and let me tell ya it's a marvelous learning procedure, practice. While waiting in the emergency room in like '97 my eyes swolled shut and I could stil see through my bodies function of actuallizing my other senses to greater degrees. I my mind's eye however, I could visualize the movements of people, things, their actions and it was a sensation that aided in transcending the pain. Once I had achieved a complete consciousness in this new mode there was no pain. Or when, as a child living on Dublin Rd. in a Pittsburg suburb I had hit a car and sliced the most perfect of cuts almost completely thru my leg at the knee, no blood at all was lost. As I was being carried up the hill my mom rubbed the pain I had in my knee only her hand went completely into the pant leg. Upon rolling up the leg I could see my entire knee, joint, bone, muscle, you name it, and I can remember my amazement not the pain. I was like, "oh cool man, look at that, that is my body" After I learned about meditation I meditated on this once and realized that it was just the trauma I went thru since I do remember eventually feeling GREAT PAIN as my dad drove me to the hospital. -------------------------------- albeit in a much less specialised way. > > And more often than not, the hearing of low frequencies such as bass > through a nice sub-woofer is actually the rattling of your rib cage. colette: yes, the senses are much more than the simplistic trivializing so often found in theologies and because people learn that there really is more to what they believe they themselves are in the position to dictate to others, they realize how frightening this world/life can be and actually is. I see it more of a learning experience and an opportunity that somehow somebody as full of definlements as myself, has somehow walked into possession of. As we can see by letting others have your rights to do with things you possess, see the invasion of Iraq and Weapons of Mass Destruction, you are actually defiling yourself by allowing such blasphemies to occur by the free will and choices, cravings, you've allowed to develope inside your hermetic jar called a skull. That is presuming that the mind in a part of the brain and the brain is in the skull and not in the pants. lol ---------------------------- > > Don't play your Studio Tan too loud now , hear :-) colette: ah, I get the picture, studio musicians are highly respected in their ability to walk up to a pc. of music and play. The good studio musicians really build a name for themselves that way. I've forgotten the song list on Studio Tan. Sorry! toodles, colette 47421 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Breathing Treatise: "The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized." Hi Tep and Nina, I wonder why dosa (aversion) isn't mentioned. Also, I was wondering if Nina could say some more on how breath is consciousness produced. I can see how a change in posture is consciousness produced and I can see how tranquility can produce tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana, but I don't see how, in general, breath is consciousness produced. Are the breathing rupas somehow a by-product of sense-sphere javana cittas? Do bhavanga cittas produce breathing? What about dreamless sleep? I would suppose that consciousness of breathing is kamma vipaka. Does that mean that mindfulness of breathing, or any rupa, is a kamma resultant consciousness but mindfulness of feeling or perception is not kamma resultant? Larry 47422 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 BT: "the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized." Hi again Tep and Nina, Regarding the appearance of perception, would that be the appearance of a sign? Larry 47423 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Jon, This is great news! Please extend my best wishes. We had several excellent discussions and I can attest that his name is very fitting, Tikkapanna (sharp panna), but it is also a very kind and gentle sharpness. Larry 47424 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm gazita2002 Dear Phil and other friends, have snipped alot of this post as this paragraph is the only one I want to comment on.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: ..... My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind > everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet apply > to us* Any sutta in which it is said, for example, "the noble > instructed disciple experiences revulsion etc" is *not* referring to > worldlings. I can imagine people sitting down and trying to generate > revulsion towards the khandas thinking that the Buddha had told them to. > Clearly it's a description of an advanced stage of insight, not a > prescription. But I agree that there are suttas which can indeed be > read as prescriptions - prescriptions that will lead to a lengthening > of the illness if they are applied without understanding, I guess. > Azita; at times, I react with a degree of frustration at some of the above suttas simply bec. I know it doesn't relate to me and if I took them at word value then I would think that the Path was very easy. Many, I think, are addressed to ariyans, not us worldlings. I like K.Sujin's 'ocean of concepts' and that wisdom is the island in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important Khanti - patience - is. Which brings me to the point I realy want to discuss. I was thinking about my interactions with friends and the certain relationships I have with them. That I have expectations of them and if those expectations are not met then something doesn't feel right. But occasionally I see that if I had no defilements, then there would be no expectations and that those beings would be seen maybe with compassion and loving kindness rather then attachment, aversion etc I can't make compassion arise likewise I can't not have aversion when it is there already. Probably the most relevant sutta for me is the adaze handle one, as i interperate that as encouraging patience and that its pointless to wonder how much wisdom one has, it only grows when it arises and it can no more be 'made' to arise than can compassion whn there are no conditions for it. So, on and on I puddle/muddle seemingly expecting more from the conventional realities than from paramattha dhammas but there is little panna to know - right now I guess its just a whole mob of moha. here's another line for our hit song 'mo,mo,mo haha' patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 47425 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: Kom's ordination news and message... gazita2002 Dear Sarah and others thanx for this Sarah. an auspicious day, it just happens to be my birthday :-0 I wish all the best for Kom - Tikkapanno - and have much appreciated his understanding of the Dhamma and his patience and kindness he shown the few times I have met him. May he gain much from the Sangha life. if you have contact with him, please pass on my good wishes to him. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > message from Kom, who'll soon be ordaining (July 17th at the Marble Temple > in Bangkok, I believe), before moving to a temple in the north in > Chengrai. S. > =============================== > > Hi Jon, > > It's happenning and fortunately, other people are taking care of all the > details. > > My only words to others on DSG are, Dhamma is the greatest blessing in > my life - I wish you all study the texts, have wise considerations, > follow the teachings with wisdom, and may you all reach where you want > to be. If I have done anything to offend anybody, please do forgive me, > and I promise I won't (or will try not to) do it again... > > My dhamma name is something like Tikkapanno, meaning sharp panna, which > goes along with my Thai name, which means a sharp knife. > > The date you travel I think will be during vassa, so my being in > Chiangrai as a monk won't help :-). Maybe next time... > > Thanks again for the jataka you got me - I found many joy with the two > books I have (partly) read.... > > kom > > > > On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:53:46 +0800, "Jonothan Abbott" > said: > > Hi Kom > > > > How are your ordination plans going? > <....> 47426 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? egberdina Hi Robert and Howard, > > > __________________ > > > We is a concept used to describe the different streams of > khandhas. > > > __________________________________________- > > > > > > > If I understand your answer correctly, it can be used to clarify > what > > I meant in the next question about self and not-self. If there are > > different streams of khandas, then the stream with which there is > > identification is me, and all the other streams are not me. There > are > > events that happen in this stream (me), and there are events that > > happen in other streams (not me). That's what I meant below, but I > > wasn't sure whether Buddhism acknowledges separate streams. (I > hope I > > am not misconstruing you :-)) > > _______________ > > Dear Herman, > You are exactly right. The Buddha's teaching of anatta is not that > all is one and that we cannot distinguish between different streams > of khandhas. What anatta means is that for each stream nothing lasts > even for a second- there is a ceasless arising and passing away of > nama and rupa. Each stream has different conditioning factors, > different degrees of tanha and avijja- and even these conditioning > factors are constantly being added to (or, if insight is being > developed, erased.) > === I am wondering if the idea of distinguishable streams of khandas is implicit, or are there actual, direct statements in the Suttas about this? Also, Joop has discussed at various times the lack of any "social" citta in the Abhidhamma, the lack of anything that would allow knowledge of "this" stream as opposed to "that" stream. Do you have any comments in relation to that? Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47427 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kelvin_lwin Hi Azita, How about applying this khanti, patience, with yourself to others also so you aren't frustrated by them and their actions? - kel > in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important > Khanti - patience - is. > But occasionally I see that if I had no defilements, then there would > be no expectations and that those beings would be seen maybe with > compassion and loving kindness rather then attachment, aversion etc > > I can't make compassion arise likewise I can't not have aversion > when it is there already. Probably the most relevant sutta for me is > the adaze handle one, as i interperate that as encouraging patience > and that its pointless to wonder how much wisdom one has, it only > grows when it arises and it can no more be 'made' to arise than can > compassion whn there are no conditions for it. 47428 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. gazita2002 Dear Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Breathing Treatise: "The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense > of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is > the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) > there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the > characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the > arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized." > > Hi Tep and Nina, > > I wonder why dosa (aversion) isn't mentioned. Azita: is it bec tanha can produce dosa e.g. when we don't get what we want or when we get what we don't want? and therefore not mentioned bec its just understood to be so ? > > Also, I was wondering if Nina could say some more on how breath is > consciousness produced. I can see how a change in posture is > consciousness produced and I can see how tranquility can produce > tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana, but I > don't see how, in general, breath is consciousness produced. Are the > breathing rupas somehow a by-product of sense-sphere javana cittas? Do > bhavanga cittas produce breathing? What about dreamless sleep? Azita; thought I could answer this one easily but now that I've come to actually write I guess I can't explain precisely, but its my understanding that the kamma that produces patisandhi citta also produces the citta 'responsible' for breathing - mmmmmm, doesn't sound quite right but when that particular kamma result runs its course, then citta no longer produces breath - 'we're' dead! > I would suppose that consciousness of breathing is kamma vipaka. A. no, I don't think so. Does > that mean that mindfulness of breathing, or any rupa, is a kamma > resultant consciousness but mindfulness of feeling or perception is not > kamma resultant? A. Any mindfulness, sati, is not vipaka but a kusala citta. If there is right mindfulness of anything then that is a high degree of kusala citta. Hoping someone else comes in with more precise answers for you Larry. When I get the opportunity I like to answer ques. bec it gives me an idea of my own understanding - thanx in advance. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. > > Larry 47429 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm egberdina Hi Andrew and Howard, > Hi Howard and Herman > > Thanks for your posts and sorry for not replying to each and every > point. In fact, I might just take up Herman's espoused tradition of > answering questions with questions and see where we get - or don't > get. (-: > > I can imagine the 3 of us getting together and having a really great > chat about life, the universe and everything. At some stage, the > conversation would get around to weight - how much we each weigh, the > price of a ton of wheat in the US and Australia etc. === I'm with you so far. === > > Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT that conversation about weight would > *have to be* if we inhabited a planet without gravity! === Yes, agreed. And without diminishing the value of what you are saying, if we have a conversation about living on a planet without gravity whilst living on Earth, our conversation would take on a theoretical nature, wouldn't it? And what would we understand a being from such a planet to be saying , were he to come to our planet and share his reality with us? === > > The Buddha was surrounded by atman-type religions. He taught anatta > and in his scheme there was something called cetana which we are > translating as "volition". > > Imagine how RADICALLY DIFFERENT a discussion about volition *has to > be* in an anatta-type scheme! > > When I encounter people ("myself" included!) who say "Oh, I accept > that there is no self, but there *is* volition", it often strikes me > that the volition being referred to has more of a footing in an atman- > type context than in an anatta one. The Dhamma in this regard is > so "difficult to see" that one can easily fall into the trap of > making volition a substitute self. I do it all the time. === Yes, agreed. None of the khandas is to be seen as me , mine , I. === > > IMHO all 3 baskets of the Pali Canon must properly be read at a > deeper level simply because of this RADICAL teaching of anatta. > Those who stop at the outer layers of the tree trunk never get to the > heartwood. > > Anyway, so you both believe that the Buddha was a great physician and > his Dhamma is a WHAT TO DO list. Fine. === A logical consequence of the anatta teaching is that self-view is also anatta. There is self-view, but noone that has it. Everything is just the way it is, and the only way it can be. Do you believe that is what the Buddha teaches? As a related aside, we are speaking about conditioned phenomena only, right? Is that all there is? If there is "something" else, does it have influence in the conditioned world? === I think the following is an > interesting question you may or may not like to ponder: > > How would your WHAT TO DO list be affected if the Suttas said "Right > Concentration comes first" instead of "Right Understanding comes > first"? > > I have a feeling that your WHAT TO DO lists wouldn't be altered much > at all. Am I wrong? Why? [insert pot of honey here! (-:] You are quite right. I do not give great weight to the sequencing of things in the noble eightfold path. There are varying renditions of various lists in the Suttas. I do not subscribe to views that say this way is the only way and all other ways are wrong. But that's just me. Kind Regards Herman > > Best wishes > Andrew T 47430 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm gazita2002 Hello Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > How about applying this khanti, patience, with yourself to others > also so you aren't frustrated by them and their actions? > > - kel A. this made me smile, in fact LOL. and I do see I have much accumulated impatience. there are less 'impatient outbursts' these days since studying dhamma. thanx for your to-the-point reminder, kel Cheers, Azita. > > > in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important > > Khanti - patience - is. 47431 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Azita: "its my understanding that the kamma that produces patisandhi citta also produces the citta 'responsible' for breathing -" Hi Azita, Thanks for pitching in. Everything you said seemed reasonable except the above. I've never heard of a special breathing consciousness, but I couldn't find anything definitive in CMA. Do you think it could be two different consciousnesses, one for in and one for out? Maybe we should meditate on this. Larry 47432 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for initiating a discussion on the breathing consciousness, rupa, jhana citta, kamma vipaka, and dosa. > Larry: > I wonder why dosa (aversion) isn't mentioned. > >Azita: is it bec tanha can produce dosa e.g. when we don't get > what we want or when we get what we don't want? and therefore not >mentioned bec its just understood to be so ? > Tep: One reason that dosa is not mentioned in the BT paragraph on conditioned arising is because dosa is akusala mula -- unlike contact, feeling and craving which are the causal links of the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada). The rest of the discussion is best answered by Nina, I believe. Best wishes, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Breathing Treatise: "The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense > of conditioned rising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving(tanha) there is > the arising of feeling... With the arising of action(kamma) there is the > arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of > conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact(phassa, samphassa) > there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the > characteristic(lakkhana) of generation (nibbatti), he has recognized the > arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized." > (snipped) 47433 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - The sign(nimitta) during breathing meditation is an interesting topic. > Larry: > Regarding the appearance of perception, would that be the appearance of > a sign? > Tep: I don't think so, Larry. Although the serenity and concentration signs (nimitta) of the BT are perception, the appearance (establishment) of perception is explained in the context of conditioned arising in para 201 : 201. How are perceptions(sanna) recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of feeling recognized? How is the arising of perception recognized? The arising of perception is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of perception ... With the arising of craving ... With the arising of contact ... Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > BT: "the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is > how the appearance of feeling is recognized." > > Hi again Tep and Nina, > > Larry 47434 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Tep: "One reason that dosa is not mentioned in the BT paragraph on conditioned arising is because dosa is akusala mula -- unlike contact, feeling and craving which are the causal links of the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada)." Hi Tep, Also ignorance. Good job, I think that's it. Larry 47435 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Hi Tep, Regarding how to recognize perception, by suggesting sign as perception I wasn't confining it to the sign of concentration, but any sign. Actually, I was thinking about movies. It seems to me that a movie is packed full of signs of pleasure and pain. A more subtle case would be signs of passion in music. Do you have access to a commentary on para. 201? I think we need more info on how to recognize recognition (perception). Larry 47436 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/9/05 6:47:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: Anyway, so you both believe that the Buddha was a great physician and his Dhamma is a WHAT TO DO list. Fine. I think the following is an interesting question you may or may not like to ponder: How would your WHAT TO DO list be affected if the Suttas said "Right Concentration comes first" instead of "Right Understanding comes first"? I have a feeling that your WHAT TO DO lists wouldn't be altered much at all. Am I wrong? Why? [insert pot of honey here! (-:] Best wishes Andrew T ========================== First of all, Andrew, I *do* think that right understanding (at increasing levels as time and practice proceed) comes first. Case in point: I need to know in some form what right concenration *is* before I can hope to ever achieve it. In another sense, though, no one path factor comes first, because each is supportive of every other, and they are achieved at heightened levels in the manner of a spiral, so that, for example, right understanding at one level supports right concentration, which in turn supports right understanding at a higher level, and on and on. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47437 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > First of all, Andrew, I *do* think that right understanding (at > increasing levels as time and practice proceed) comes first. Case in point: I need to > know in some form what right concenration *is* before I can hope to ever > achieve it. In another sense, though, no one path factor comes first, because each > is supportive of every other, and they are achieved at heightened levels in the > manner of a spiral, so that, for example, right understanding at one level > supports right concentration, which in turn supports right understanding at a > higher level, and on and on. Hi again Howard and Herman Thanks for your sensible replies, much of which strikes a chord. On the topic of similies/analogies like the Great Physician, there are many in the Dhamma as you know and the thought sometimes arises about how much we should read into them. Take the one of the teaching of Dhamma being the Lion's Roar. A lion's roar is something that stops you in your tracks and makes the hairs on your neck stand on end. In that sense, to me, the anatta teaching truly is the lion's roar. It is *such* a radical, far-reaching idea. There are times when it does make my spine shake. Those glimpses have not been when I am having a nice meditation seemingly in charge of "my volition", but when the mind is clearly at the mercy of conditions (despite what volition wills). It thus seems to me that there is more Dhamma to be learned/experienced by reflecting, not on what I *can* do, but on what I *can't*. Because that's the time that puts paid to ideas of a self or a selfless volition *directing* conditions. Take care Andrew T 47438 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 0:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewT, Are you saying you only see anatta when it's akusala vipaka and not when it's kusala vipaka? :) - kel > In that sense, to me, the anatta teaching truly is the > lion's roar. It is *such* a radical, far-reaching idea. There are > times when it does make my spine shake. Those glimpses have not been > when I am having a nice meditation seemingly in charge of "my > volition", but when the mind is clearly at the mercy of conditions > (despite what volition wills). 47439 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:21am Subject: re: what is real nichiconn CharlesD: But, Connie, now you are going to have to give me your translations of: citta, cetasika, naama, and ruupa. Does that complete the list? Connie: can't i just give you back ? You know how lists are prone to go to any lengths. nama covers citta, cetasika & nibbana ( CMA covers nibbana in the rupa chapter - know why? ) so, we can say just nama and rupa or make it shorter yet: dhatus (elements). khandha = rasi, guna, pannatti, rulhi, kotthasa; bulk, trunk, mass, ch or section, sensorial aggregates which condition the appearance of life in any form (pancakhandha) citta = vinnana(khandha); mano; manasa; ahara; "bent"; 89 or 121 types of thought moment/life. also this state's accompanying mental factors/cetasikas. knowing process. mano = citta and cetasikas; vedana (feeling), sanna (memory, marking, perception), sankhara (cetana) and vinnana -khandhas; "(heart)mind" cetasikas = vedana-, sanna- and sankhara- khandhas; 52 mental factors rupa -- afflicted, molested. the element that does not know/experience/care about anything. "materiality"; form; visible object. rootless. object of sensual desire. nama - immaterial; name(d); 'ethical' nibbana - beyond me Try www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html or the glossary in the group's files section. peace. 47440 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:41am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your reply and suggestion. Could you please re-read my reply and the one you wrote that I replied? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > To formulate your thought from the paramattha-dhamma principles, > mostly rejecting conventional speech and concepts(pannatti), is one > extreme . To reject every > principle based on ultimate realities and use only conventional > speech and concepts is another extreme. <"Only this is true; anything > otherwise is worthless,' is a viewpoint. AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta> > > Htoo, asking the following questions shows an extreme view of an > extremely confused person [SN XLIV.10]. > > Did The Buddha exist? Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? Do > Dhamma exist? Did and do arahats exist? Did I exist? Will I be there in > the future? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did > Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > > How do we avoid these extreme views? Simply adopt the following > right views: > > 1. Discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, > the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. [AN IV.10, Yoga > Sutta] > > 2. Don't study the Dhamma either for attacking others or for defending > yourself in debate. Try to reach the goal for which people study the > Dhamma. Your right grasp of those Dhammas will lead to your long- > term welfare & happiness. [MN 22, Alagaddupama Sutta] > > 3. " A monk assumes neither a self nor anything pertaining to a self in > the six spheres of sensory contact. Assuming in this way, he doesn't > cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. > Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is > ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for > this world.' " [SN XXXV.193, Udayin Sutta] > > > Best wishes (and unlimited Karuna), > > > Tep 47441 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob K, > Though kaya can also refer to the mental body, cetasikas, I think in this > context we have to think of rupas. > The four tetrads of anapanasati which is included in mindfulness of body, > pertain successively to seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, > citta in citta and dhamma in dhamma. This is all explained in the > Visuddhimagga. > Nina. > op 08-07-2005 13:17 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > > > I am not sure but in this passage can kaaya refer also to the mental > > body - nama- as well as rupa? Nina might be able to explain. > > RobertK -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina and Rob K, If mental body is included in kaayanupassana The Buddha would not have preached on other satipatthaana of vedanaupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa, and dhammaanupassanaa. With much respect, Htoo Naing 47442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] ongoing mindfulness. nilovg Hi Howard, op 08-07-2005 23:55 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: N: do you mean continuous mindfulness? > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I didn't mean that. I was speaking informally and referring to a > practice of being consistently mindful of what is happening at "ordinary > times" as > opposed to specifically during "formal meditation" periods. Mindfulness is an > enlightenment factor, but I don't think that it needs to be present at every > moment. > -------------------------------------------- N: But by condiitons there is mindfulness with each moment of kusala: daana, siila, bhaavana. But different degrees. Sati is non-forgetful. There may be an opportunity for giving, but one is just too lazy and lets it pass by. Sati 'remembers' what is kusala. -------- > Howard: > I hope what I said above sufficiently clarifies what I had in mind, Nina. > ------------------------------------------ N: Yes, you clarified what you meant. Not sati all the time. When there is an opportunity I would like to discuss more the object of sati and the difference between the moment there is no sati and there is sati. I find this subject always difficult, because in theory I can say something, but this can only be really clear when there is a true moment of sati and not what we take for sati. But you also wrote, that understanding comes first. You appreciate the role of understanding. No hurry, I have some busy days ahead, besides, Larry is waiting for me to add something about dosa! Nina. 47443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta nilovg Hi Howard, A relevant question. I like such questions. op 08-07-2005 21:08 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > As I understand it, the commentaries describe a citta as passing through > three consecutive phases of arising, maintaining, and declining. Exactly what > changes occurring in the citta distinguish these stages? Is it a matter of > increasing of intensity from a zero level, up to a maximum that is maintained > for > a while, and then followed by a decreasing of intensity back to the zero > level? ------ N: I do not know much about the three phases, they are so fast anyway, but I learnt something about this from the subject of conditions. Citta at the moment of arising is strong, only then it can originate ruupa. Thus it is very intense and then it decreases in intensity. This is an aside: with ruupa it is the opposite. Ruupa is weak at its arising moment and it cannot be a base or object of citta. Eyebase can only be a condition for citta after its arising moment, during the moments of its presence. Visible object can only be object condition for citta after its arising moment. To return to citta. Cittas rooted in aversion, dosa, can produce ruupas. There is a change in colour and facial features as we say in conventional language. There are several dosa-muulacittas arising and falling away succeeding one another, and there are many processes of them. At the first submoment of citta, its arising moment, it produces rupa. This shows that the moments of dosa at such a time are countless. It gives us a sense of urgency of the danger of akusala. There is still more to it. Through eyes only colour appears, and in another process it is known what the meaning is of this colour. We realize: this person is angry. Saññaa plays its part. ---------- H: Also, whatever changes, whether it be intensity or something else, are > all > the cetasikas associated with the citta correspondingly varying? ------- N: Yes, whenever we speak of citta, the accompanying cetasikas are always included. --------- H: So as not to be laying a trap for you good folks with the preceding > questions, let me be "up front" in saying that something that changes cannot > be > considered a "reality", can it? -------- N: I do not consider your questions a trap. Good points for discussions always! I think that exactly what is a conditioned reality is subject to change. It arises, is present for an extremely short while and then falls away immediately. There are very meaningful texts also in the suttas what is subject to change is dukkha. Subject to change: vipari.nama in Pali. Dhammasangani §1038 (p. 249): The Buddha uses many different wordings to help those who can be led to enlightenment. This is his discrimination of language, nirutti patisambhida. They are different synonyms for : past, fallen away. The Expositor (p. 465, The Triplets): Dhammas cannot stay the same, this sounds very real to me. -------- H: It seems to me that this commentarial notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena. ------- N: See above. Citta is one of the four paramattha dhammas. Citta rooted in dosa, this can be called dosa-muulacitta, it does not matter how we call it, but it is real for everybody, also for animals. Citta rooted in lobha is real for everybody, its characteristic does not change, it is citta with clinging. It arises and falls away. It is not a concept. The name is naama-paññatti, but this name denotes a reality. I have a feeling that the subject of reality and concept has not been exhausted yet. Nina. 47444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) nilovg Hi Ken, Phil, Howard and all, This is an urgent issue that deserves more discussion. op 09-07-2005 09:00 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > We are of the opinion - based on our Dhamma studies - that attachment > to detachment (and attachment to the idea of detachment) is a bad > thing. Even so, there are bound to be many akusala moments with > attachment to the idea of detachment. > > Everyone has occasional kusala moments in which there is always > detachment. In the following split second, there can be attachment to > detachment. But if we have developed a little right understanding, > there will be fewer conditions for that akusala moment to arise. --- N: Yes, I catch myself having attachment to the idea of detachment. I listen to tapes while I am copying for Sarah, and I hear: there is lobha all the time. Even kusala: it is for our own sake. I wrote to Phil about the beneficial condition of reading suttas, and Phil responded: but there should be no expectations. When I am not in the right frame of mind, I do not always like to hear such things, I have some moments of irritation, like Phil also had. Dan said, that is a good thing. Right. First there is irritation, and then we see that the right point was hit. I am grateful to all Dhamma friends who remind me! At first we believe that there is pure kusala, that there is mindfulness, but then we learn that there is a form of lobha we take for kusala. Lobha can also be accompanied by indifferent feeling, and then it is hard to notice it. I have to understand that there are many more moments of lobha than kusala. Theoretically I understand, but, as to the level of practice, not yet. Expectations do enter. Nina. 47445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... nilovg Hi Sarah and Jon, Exactly what Larry says. I always missed him on the list. But he can be of great assistance to the Sangha, thus, I rejoice. Nina. op 10-07-2005 02:02 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > This is great news! Please extend my best wishes. We had several > excellent discussions and I can attest that his name is very fitting, > Tikkapanna (sharp panna), but it is also a very kind and gentle > sharpness. 47446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm nilovg Hi Howard, yes, well said. This helps me to understand texts like: who is concentrated see things as they really are. I think we have to consider all the time the different degrees of each. And, for those who do not develop jhaana, still, at the moment of magga-citta concentration has grown to the strength of the first jhana. Nina. op 10-07-2005 07:36 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > First of all, Andrew, I *do* think that right understanding (at > increasing levels as time and practice proceed) comes first. Case in point: I > need to > know in some form what right concenration *is* before I can hope to ever > achieve it. In another sense, though, no one path factor comes first, because > each > is supportive of every other, and they are achieved at heightened levels in > the > manner of a spiral, so that, for example, right understanding at one level > supports right concentration, which in turn supports right understanding at a > higher level, and on and on. 47447 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Robert and Howard, > > >> > Dear Herman, > > You are exactly right. The Buddha's teaching of anatta is not that > > all is one and that we cannot distinguish between different streams > > of khandhas. What anatta means is that for each stream nothing lasts > > even for a second- there is a ceasless arising and passing away of > > nama and rupa. Each stream has different conditioning factors, > > different degrees of tanha and avijja- and even these conditioning > > factors are constantly being added to (or, if insight is being > > developed, erased.) > > > === > I am wondering if the idea of distinguishable streams of khandas is > implicit, or are there actual, direct statements in the Suttas about > this? Also, Joop has discussed at various times the lack of any > "social" citta in the Abhidhamma, the lack of anything that would > allow knowledge of "this" stream as opposed to "that" stream. Do you > have any comments in relation to that? > >____________ Dear Herman, It is explicit: Anguttara Nikaya V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? ""'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'... Each stream makes kamma entirely individually. The streams sometimes bump into each other and occasionally head the same way, but they are still seperate. The Abhidhamma specifically classifies Karauna (compassion) and Mudita(sympathetic Joy). Metta and equanimity are included under adosa and tatramajjhattata. These are the 4 ways we ideally relate to others. The other ways are with dosa (aversion), tanha (desire) and avijja (unawareness). It seems to me that Abhidhamma covers the full range of social activity so I don't see where we could add an extra citta. Robertk 47448 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Enthusiastic is Energy ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Energy is the Fifth Mental Perfection: Energy means enthusiasm Energy means effort Energy means exertion Energy means interest Energy means endeavour Energy means eagerness Energy means initiative Energy means intensity Energy means action Energy means force Energy means power Energy means keenness Energy means devotion Energy means dedication Energy means determination Energy means commitment Energy means enjoyment Energy pave the way for success in all & any project ... Energy is thereby instrumental for all the perfections. Without energy can no achievement ever be accomplished. The proximate cause for energy is a sense of urgency !!! The characteristic of energy is striving, it's function is effort, and the manifestation of energy is endurance. Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams ? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving. Sutta Nipata 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude & dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipata 332 Possessed of Energy & Endurance be always earnest in your training. The clever One is not satisfied before the goal of ending all misery, is wholly achieved. Theragatha 585 It is too cold, it is too hot..., It is too early, it is too late! Such bad excuses, make one give up the training & miss one more precious opportunity... DN 31 This straight Way has now been clearly shown: Don't hesitate, walk forward & do not turn around. Urge yourself to advance further by your own Energy, only thus will you obviously approach & attain Nibbana! Theragatha 637 The effort to prevent & to eliminate evil, to develop & to maintain good: These are the 4 right efforts, taught by the Buddha. AN II 17 And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, not yet arisen, & food too for boosting of the present Energy ? The element of initiative, The element of exertion, The element of endurance. Systematic attention to these, is feeding the yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, & food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikaya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta At such times, friends, when the mind is Slow, Sluggish, and Heavy: Then it is the Right Occasion: for cultivating the Investigation-by-curiosity enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Energy-of-Enthusiasm enlightenment-factor, for cultivating the Rapture-of-Joy enlightenment-factor... Why is it so ? When the mind is slow, sluggish, and heavy, it is Easily Raised Up by exactly these mental qualities. Suppose, friends, that a man wants a fire to blaze up, and he put on dry grass, dry wood sticks and blow it with dry hot air and do not cover it with any dust, would that man then see his fire blaze up ? Certainly So, Lord... SN V, 46. Bojjhanga-samyutta Well then, Moggallana, whatever experience you had in mind when drowsiness demoralized you down, don't attend to that experience, don't follow it. Remember instead the Dhamma, as you have heard & memorized it, reflect on & examine it! Then raise up & repeat aloud the details of Dhamma, as you have learnt it! Then pull both your earlobes and rub your limbs with both your hands.! Then get up from your seat, and after washing your eyes with cold water, look around & upward in all directions and identify the major stars & planets! Then attend to the experience of inner light, resolve on the clear perception of daytime, by night as by day, and by day as by night! By means of an awareness thus open, unhindered & vivid, develop the bright mind. It's possible, that by doing this, you will shake off your lethargy... But if by doing this you don't shake off your laziness, then continually noting what is both in front & behind set of a distance to meditate walking back & forth, your senses inwardly settled, while your mind is not getting lost outwards. It is possible that by doing this you will finally shake off your sluggishness. Anguttara Nikaya VII 58 Born as the Brahmin Mahajanaka, the Bodhisatta was once, aboard a ship sinking far from shore. All the crew were in great panic...!!! The Bodhisatta though ate his belly full of sugar & ghee, oiled his clothes and swam continuously for 7 days towards the shore, until he was rescued by an ocean guarding female devote devata. Later he remembered: "Even far out at sea, where many men were lost, yet still unruffled by worry was my mind. This enthusiasm was my perfection of Energy." Mahajanaka-Jataka no. 539 ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47449 From: "avinduandura" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:00am Subject: Re: Is truth verifiable ever? avinduandura Dear Sarah, I needed to move little further. ie,. if the nibbana is just a dream like thing for those WHO ATTENDED nibbana? if it is exist in THEIR mind only? or just a imagination? Any way, this suspicious thoughts are fading away from my mind so I would like to start learning buddhism in a methodical way. There are so many dhamma talks, articles and books that we can reed.but i feel those are not related to each other. so I would like to start to read the tipitaka. I prefer pali as the language and believe reading skills are enouhg to read and understand tipitaka. good news is all tipitaka is only about 20000 pages.i saw this in a artical but not sure about it. also found tipitaka at www.metta.lk/tipitaka. this will be hard as I found no single pali dictionary that contain all the pali words found in the tipitaka. and also no idea of how many pali words are there in the tipitaka. I appriceate your suggestion on this. You asked "What is life at this moment as you see it?" life is just a drama and rewards people who play well. we have little little programs to play in each ocation in our life. for example we have one program to express love to some people and another program to hurt people we dis-like. we respect our bosses and neglect our office assistant. even our voice has different kind of tone for each of those people. we maintain sapearte set of thoughts for buddhist and another set for non buddhist. more for arrogant people, inocent, kind, bad,money, etc. for me, life is a collection of such thoughts and action. I would say, I may count 100-200 such main action and thoughts in a working day. and 50-100 in a holiday. but thease numbers reflect only thoughts which can be notice easily. I believe i will be able to see much more than this, if develop the clarity of the mind. life at this movement is just a play of one such a program. I have little control over choosing which program to play. but i have no control over which set of thoughts and action to posses in a particular stage of life. I liked sweets in my childhood but I dont want it any more. I didnt put any effort to make me dislike sweets. it just happend. I think same rule will be applied to the many of the things in life. money, respect, love etc.. metta avidu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Avidu, > > --- amp amp wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, > > I think I havant structured my question properly in my last posting. so > > let me re-post the same question again. > > > > My mind has began to suspect buddha and buddhism recently. I suspect > > even nibbana. If the nibbana and all the fruits of enlignment is just a > > kind of dream? > .... > S: I think that for us now, nibbana and the fruits of enlightenment are > just a kind of dream that can't be directly experienced. So why not let go > of the dreams and consider more about what can be directly tested and > proved? I think that this is the only way that there will be more > confidence in the Buddha's teachings, including those aspects which we > dream about. > > What is life at this moment as you see it? > .... > > > willing to be defeated.. > .... > S: No question of 'defeated' here:). Persevere with your questions and > you'll see the benefit. > > Thank you for giving your name. Please tell us where you live. Were you > brought up in a Buddhist country? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 47450 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. jonoabb Hi Tep Time for my week-end burst of activity again ;-)). Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon: I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but I think the nine aspects >would be the things itemised as (a) to (i) in par. 195, namely, (long >in-breath, long out-breath and long in-breath and out-breath) x ( >without zeal or gladness, with zeal, with gladness). > >Tep: My first reading also tempted me to straightforwardly count (a) to >(i) and come up with the number 9. However, the second reading >discovered that (c) alone consists of two distinct aspects: 1. long in- >breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent; 2. zeal arises with long in- >breaths and out-breaths reckoned by extent. And in (i) there are two >distinct aspects: 1. Through gladness he has long in-breaths and out- >breaths reckoned by extent; 2. Long in-breaths and out-breaths through >gladness that results in established equanimity. So I discovered the >right nine aspects in (c) - (i) instead of (a) - (i). > Thanks for the correction, Tep. >Jon: My understanding is that while both samatha bhavana and >vipassana bhavana involve the arising of panna, the panna would be >of different levels/degrees. Panna of the level of samatha bhavana >does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising >dhamma. >Thanks very much for all the work you put into the series. Much >appreciated. > >Tep: I don't understand "Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does >not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma". > > Panna is a mental factor that knows directly or understands. However, there are different levels or degrees of knowing. The panna that arises with moments of samatha bhavana knows directly, for example, the kusala or akusala nature of mind states. Only the panna that arises at moments of insight development knows the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, that is, its nature as a nama or rupa, or its specific characteristic, or the characteristics that it shares in common with all other conditioned dhammas (anicca, dukkha, anatta). I hope this makes sense. Jon 47451 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Hi Jon, > > >... >It amazes me how you keep coming back to this subject. Do you think >I am an expert on satipatthana or something? ;-)) > Yes I do think that; isn't everyone on this list an expert in satipatthana? ;-)) ;-)) Seriously though, I see you as an independent thinker but at the same time as someone who has sufficient confidence in or respect for the texts to be wary about disregarding what is there simply because it appears not to concur with your experience to date. But to be frank, that is not why I have been pursuing this topic. I have been questioning your interpretation of the kayanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta as laying down 'activities' that are 'conducive to insight'. That is why in my last post I asked you how you see the development of mindfulness under those sections of the sutta that do not specify any 'actions conducive to insight'. The response you gave to that question (below) doesn't really answer the question, as far as I can see. However, I don't wish to press the subject if you'd rather not continue the discussion. Apologies if you feel 'nitpicked' (see Herman's post) ;-)) Jon >From my >understanding, insight into the characteristics of rupas would, post >facto, involve insight into the characteristics of namas. They are >both dependent on each other. > >Metta, >James > 47452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >I agree with the points you make. And there's nothing wrong with a >natter about stuff. But even conventional speech has requirements >which if unmet render a statement meaningless or confused. For >example, the statement "A day has seven weeks" can be conventionally >understood as being confused about some categories. > >The original statement to which I responded was along the lines of >"there is only one citta at any time". I took citta to be a >conventional reference to what is taken in Theravadin orthodoxy to be >an irreducible, an absolute. That an irreducible is seen to occur in >time and that it has quantity would suggest that it is not irreducible >at all. That is why I suggested there was a confusion of levels. > Ah, a fellow nit-picker, I see ;-)) Thanks for this explanation. I think you're saying that a person who has truly experienced an absolute would not be talking about that absolute in terms of numbers and time, since that would be inconsistent with its absoluteness. This seems an odd point to make regarding what is clearly a summary of material found in the texts, rather than the writer's personal experience. But perhaps more to the point, the Buddha himself gave many discourses in which dhammas were described in terms of numbers (and which together now form the Anguttara Nikaya), so there is good precedent for this approach ;-)). >(I am working on the assumption that awareness of time and counting >occur very much higher up the cognitive tree than basic sensing) > Yes, time and counting are both conceptual matters, but the statement 'there is only one citta at a time' does not purport to be a description of a paramattha dhamma; it simply addresses the commonly held view that experiences through the different sense-doors and the mind door can all occur simultaneously. Perhaps your perceived 'confusion of levels' results from a misunderstanding of the original statement. Hope you're having a good weekend. Jon 47453 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kom's ordination news and message... sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Azita & Nina, I sent Kom a note and gave him links to your messages. Yes, a very suitable name and he'll be an honour to the Sangha. His assistance to us with the running of DSG for several years (mostly behind the scenes)was enormous -- not only on the technical side, but also with his kind and compassionate way of trying to help new members learn the ropes and so on, especially when we were travelling or busy or when there were any 'difficulties'. He really set us a very fine and modest example. Fortunately, the list pretty well runs itself these days, really a big thanks to all of you. As a friend recntly wrote to us (off-list): "You are blessed with a wonderful list of people on your list." with appreciation. Metta, Sarah. p.s Nina, I've sent you Kom's add. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > Exactly what Larry says. I always missed him on the list. But he can be > of > great assistance to the Sangha, thus, I rejoice. > Nina. > op 10-07-2005 02:02 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > This is great news! Please extend my best wishes. We had several > > excellent discussions and I can attest that his name is very fitting, > > Tikkapanna (sharp panna), but it is also a very kind and gentle > > sharpness. 47455 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta htootintnaing Dear Howard and Nina, Howard posted an interesting post. Nina has already answered and satisfactorily replied. I put a few more points here. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hi, all - As I understand it, the commentaries describe a citta as passing through three consecutive phases of arising, maintaining, and declining. Exactly what changes occurring in the citta distinguish these stages? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nina's explanation will be better than me as she supported with evidences from sources. Here I will give physical phenomena just to compare as a simile. Light is definitely a ruupa. Light definitely serves as an object for eyes. Eyes themselves are not naama or knowers. Eyes are also ruupa. Here I use 'eyes' as physical eyes, scientific eyes. There are 2 phenomena sofar I put in. The first is 1. light, which is ruupa. The second is 2. eyes, which is (is) ruupa. I am not talking on 'unperceived light and non-perceiving eye' but talking on 'perceived light and perceiving eye'. My word may go wrong when I use 'perceive' here because I am not sure whether it is right to use 'eye can perceive'. Anyway perceived light and perceiving eye are both ruupas. There is a third phenomenon. It is consciousness. It is a citta. It is eye-consciousness. It is cakkhuvinnaana citta. Consciousness arises at eye. So it is called eye-consciousness. Still there are many other phenomena when the physical light is still there. I am conveying to your (Howard's) question but still not reaching the point yet. Let us assume we do a test or an experiment. Requirements: 1. unlighted light source 2. battery or power supply 3. power switcher 4. a human subject with perfect eyes 5. brain waves detector The switcher of power supply has to swtich on and out fast. As soon as he switches on there will be a bright white light. As he switches out very very fastly the light disappear within a split second. When the human subject is asked he will be able to answer that he sees the bright white light. So there was a light (ruupa) and there was eye (ruupa) and there also was a consciousness (citta/naama). There will be a trace of brain wave. The experiement is over. Let us analyse the experiment. The perceiver of the light knows that there was a light. This happens because there have happened many many many consciousness. There have been many many processions of consciousness or 'vithi vaara'. Let us take the first vithi vara. In that first vithi vara (citta procession) there are 17 moments when the first phenomenon of ruupa (light) happens. This means that ruupa has lifespan of 17 moments of a consciousness. Even in this first 17 consciousness the first citta is not 'eye- consciousness'. This means that the eye does not see the light as soon as the light arises. Because the light was so weak to serve as an object for eye in its initial existence that is in the first 17th or light especially in the first 3rd of that 1st 17th ruupa. White light is made up of a spectrum of light rays namely; blue, indigo, violet, green, yellow, orange, red. among these 7 light waves the longest is red. So when the first to reach the eye is red and not white light (which is the object in the experiment). This can be understood when the batteries are weak. There will be just a dim red light. But when batteries are full of charge there will be white light. This is just s simile and an example. So for white light there are 17 moments or 51 submoments. Among these 51, the first is very weak to serve as an object. But the 2nd submoment can do the job of object. But at that time a consciousness has already arisen and it is life- continuing consciousness or bhavanga citta. There is a series of consciousness that follows this bhavanga citta. What I put in here is that there are arising, persisting, and vanishing of ruupa. Likewise there are arising, persisting and vanishing of consciousness. But this is much much more swifter than ruupa. Now it comes to your question. Howard asked: 'Exactly what changes occuring in the citta distingusih these stages?' Htoo: I would answer; This is a hard to understand matter. When consciousness are flowing very very very fast ordinary people will never sense these stages. So as ordinary people we will have to understand them with judgement on how consciousness or citta, their accompanying mental factorts or cetasika, and ruupas are working. This is to judge with our intellectual understanding. There are arising of different ruupas and vanishing of different ruupa. These ruupas are originated from 4 different causes. I am not talking on ruupa but to delineate on 1.arising, 2.persisting, and 3.vansihing of consciousness that is the three stages that you asked. At patisandhi or rebirth there arises patisandhi citta. That citta has 3 stages. At all stages it produces kammaja ruupa or kamma-born ruupas. Next arise 1st bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness. It has 3 stages. At all 3 stages that bhavanga citta produces consciousness-born rupa or cittaja ruupa. Cittaja ruupas have been producing through out a life since the arising of the 1st bhavanaga citta and this happens till the last citta called cuti citta or life-ceasing consciousness. Again this consciousness has 3 stages. At all stages it produces cittaja ruupas. Even the last third of cuti citta can produce cittaja rupa. Ahaaraaja ruupa arise when the satta concern swallow their own saliva (upapatti satta) or when mother blood reaches fetus. So far there are kammaja ruupa, cittaja ruupa, and aahaaraja ruupa. Again I am not talking on ruupa. I am conveying to 3 stages of citta. The 4th ruupa is utuja ruupa or temperature-born ruupa. Here unlike other other ruupa this ruupa in a satta starts to arise in the 2nd stage of patisandhi citta. But since then utuja ruupa will have been arising all the time until the planet/earth is destroyed. So clearly there is initiation or initial stage of citta, persisting stage of citta and vanishing stage of citta. The vanishing stage of cuti citta can produce cittaja ruupa. As ruupa has 51 submoments as a life further 50 submoments are still in the corpse as the results of arising of cuti citta while individual concerned is no more there. Sorry for very very long explanation. But these explanations do need. Now the answer to your question comes. Htoo's answer to Howard question: 'There is nothing in citta that distingusihes 3 stages.' A citta just happens '1.2.3.' and there is just temporal relationship among these three stages. That is 'upaada khana' or 'arising' comes first, 'thiti khana' or persisting moment comes after that and this is followed by 'bhanga khana' or vansihing moment'. There is no intrisically identifiable thing in a citta that distinguish these 3 stages. As I explained in kammaja ruupa, utuja ruupa and cittaja ruupa there are 3 different stages of a citta. 1. in the 1st stage of patisandhi citta kaamaja ruupa arises(kamma) 2. in the 2nd stage of patisandhi citta utuja ruupa arises(ruupa weak) 3. in the 1st stage of first bhavanga citta cittaja ruupa arises and cittaja rupa still arise in the 3rd stage of cuti citta.(citta) So there are 3 distinct stages in a citta. They are arising (uppaada), persisting (thiiti), and vanishing(bhanga). But there is no intrinsically identifiable things in a citta that distinguish between these 3 stages. They are just temporal serialising one after another without any interruption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Is it a matter of increasing of intensity from a zero level, up to a maximum that is maintained for a while, and then followed by a decreasing of intensity back to the zero level? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I have explained above. There is no mathematical involvement in the intensity of a citta. All 3 stages are equally the same in a citta. Example is cuti citta. This is a dying consciousness. But in all 3 stages it produces cittaja ruupas equally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Also, whatever changes, whether it be intensity or something else, are all the cetasikas associated with the citta correspondingly varying? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not at all. There are characteristics of cetasikas. 1. arises together with the citta/ (arise at the very same time) 2. depend on the base where the citta depends 3. take the same object where the citta takes 4. vanish together with the citta/ (vansih at the very same time) At all 3 stages cetasikas will also be in 1.initial stage, 2.persisting stage, 3.vanishing stage. Like the citta the intensity is the same through out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So as not to be laying a trap for you good folks with the preceding questions, let me be "up front" in saying that something that changes cannot be considered a "reality", can it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said there is temporal serialising that is '1.2.3.'. So when there is '1.' there is no '2.' and no '3.'. When there is '2.' there is no longer '1.' and there is no '3.'. When there is '3.' there is no longer '1.' and '2.'. They are impermanent. They are anicca. They are conditioned dhamma. They are sankhara dhamma. They are realities. It is not a trap at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that this commentarial notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear when you say 'notion may well turn cittas into conventional phenomena'. What is conventional phenomena? With Metta, Htoo Naing > 47456 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for your many comments on my last post, which I have noted. Towards the end of your post you say something that neatly encapsulates the issues, so if you don't mind I'll go straight to that. You say: " ... But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous." Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. What I mean is, if you regard the Buddha's teaching as being in effect, 'Pay attention, but that of course means only with kusala kusala mind-state', then that is no longer a reference to a conventional activity, any more than if he were to say, 'Be more generous' or 'Develop metta'. You seem to regard the inevitable akusala moments as a harmless by-product of moving in the right direction. I think this would be a mistake. Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are. I of course agree with the point you often make that we have to begin where we are (that is, as relatively deluded, kilesa-ridden individuals), but I see this as meaning that the moments of actual insight development will be few and far between. I do not see it as meaning that we should feel free to pursue a particular practice knowing that it will involve frequent moments of akusala. Jon upasaka@... wrote: >Howard: > Without consistent, and hopefully habituated, intention to pay attention >our attention will typically arise only when we are *intersted* in what is >arising, which generally means when what arises is pleasant and craved (or the >diametric opposite). It is not good to have our attention led by the nose by our >defilements! >------------------------------------ >... >------------------------------------ >Howard: > Ahh, yes - "can" occur. But it is far better to*cultivate* ongoing >attention, Jon. Our study of the Dhamma makes it clear how important paying >attention is. It is so wonderful that the Buddha emphasized that. But if we don't pay >attention to his teachings except as intellectual diversion, then we will not >benefit from them. >------------------------------------- > >... >---------------------------------------------- >Howard: > So what is your point, Jon? That is a truism. But paying attention to >what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing >fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all >imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that >there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no >effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous. >--------------------------------------------- > 47457 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? jonoabb Hi Tep I hope you don't mind if I jump straight to the main point of your post. Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: The anapanasati bhavana as taught in MN 118 (same as the >thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, para 183, Breathing >Treatise) has nothing to do with "mundane jhana". The paragraphs # >16 - # 168 show clearly that the 16-ground Anapanasati is a powerful >method for developing the ariya-maggas, starting from the four rupa >jhanas (as defined in DN 22), going all the way to the 4 arupa-jhanas, >the 18 principal insights, and then the four ariya-maggas. > >In SN LIV.13 (Ananda Sutta) the Buddha told the Ven. Ananda as >follows, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing(anapanasati), when >developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations >of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when >developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to >completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & >pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion". > >Putting the information in the Breathing Treatise (para 16 - 168) together >with SN LIV.13, there should be no doubts about the nature of the >samatha(8 jhanas) as being the important foundation of the Arahatta- >magga & phala development. > The passage you have quoted above needs to be read in the context of the sutta as a whole and indeed of the whole Tipitaka. Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed samatha results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth in particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. A person who has developed anapanasati samadhi, but not vipassana bhavana as well, cannot attain enlightenment. In SN 54:13, however, (and in certain other suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta), the final attainment described is enlightenment. So what is the difference between anapanasati as described in SN 54:13 and anapanasati as referred to in the context of the 38 or 40 subjects of contemplation for samatha bhavana? In SN 54:13 the Buddha describes how a person who is highly developed in both anapanasati and vipassana can attain enlightenment with jhana citta as basis. In other words, he is describing not just samatha and not just vipassana, but the development of both together under very particular circumstances. Thus the words, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion" should be understood as meaning that when anapanasati is developed and pursued *as set out in the following part of the sutta* (that is to say, in the case of the particular kind of individual there described, together with vipassana) it can bring the four foundations of mindfulness to completion. The following part of the sutta then explains in detail the development leading to the twin attainments of jhana and enlightenment with jhana as basis. I am not aware of jhana attained other than by anapanasati being given the same treatment elsewhere in the suttas. So I think SN 54:13 and the other suttas like it are specific to anapanasati, rather than being general to jhana. Jon 47458 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing DEar Herman, Well it is time-consuming. I have already used time when I reply to Howard's post. But as your questions are equally interesting I will reply it but after it I may or may not be around. Just send an off- list message that you have posted some messages for for if you want me to reply again. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Htoo, You write many interesting things. If you feel inclined, I would certainly appreciate your time and effort to further examine some of these things. > Htoo: To see such deep dhamma individual will need to learn > dhamma in all possible way. Understanding of dhamma comes first. If > dhamma are not understand then there is possibility that wrong path > may be followed. > There are instructions to follow the right path. But frequently these > instructions are not fully understood and there always are > misinterpretations. > & Tep wrote: > Tep: How do you suggest about learning dhamma "in all possible > way"? How many ways can one learn the dhamma and which way is > best, in general? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > These are pedagogic matter. > 1. transferred wisdom or transferred knolwedge is given by some > outside individuals in many different ways like 'speech' 'talk' > 'text' 'books' 'through teaching'. > 2. self-discovered wisdom or knowledge arise within individual and > this arising of knowledge is not the result of others' teaching. > Example; No one taught 'Issac Newton' Newton's laws. > 3. self-realized wisdom or knowledge only arise within indiviudal > when there are conditions. === ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: A] I wonder if you would allow for another category of transferred knowledge. Sexual reproduction. Babies, for short. In a healthy baby there is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling. These senses are not self-discovered, they are not taught, but they are there as another, new instance of "seeing knowing visible object", "hearing knowing audible object" and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was talking on 3 different kinds of wisdom. What your baby has is not wisdom. But just perception. Perception of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling etc. Even in these babies there can arise some wisdom. Example is taste. First time the taste was just perceived. Next time it was perceived. But that perception was conditioned by former perception. And later and later perceptions are not like former and former perception. Then there arise a wisdom 'O! this milk is sweet. O! this time this milk is stink. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: B] I wonder, too, to what extent transferred knowledge (teaching / learning) is a genuine category of knowing. I think there is often confusion between what is learnt and what is known. A silly medium - sized example follows. I would be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Little Johny comes home from school, and his Dad asks him "What do you know today that you didn't know yesterday". If Johny were to say "I know that there are 4 chambers in the heart" he would have misunderstood what knowing that means. If he instead would have said "The teacher teaches that there are 4 chambers in the heart" Johny would have shown wisdom beyond his years. Likewise little Colette. If she tells Mum that she now knows how to catch a ball, because that's what she did in sport, she'd be right. But if it was raining that day, and the teacher only explained the theory of catching a ball, Colette cannot say she knows how to catch a ball. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To know how to catch a ball is a wisdom. It is heard. Likewise to know how to swim is also a wisdom. It is taught in the room. Even though if he or she swim he or she may sink the knowledge given by teachers is learned wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there > > in the screen for your mind. > a) things on the screen > 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) > 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) > 3. gandhaarammana (smell) > 4. rasaarammana (taste) > 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) > 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: What about the following? Seeing the things on the screen of the mind is equal to the act of differentiating them, abstracting them. Without an act, a grasping, a doing, none of these are apparent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You did not grasped the idea that I gave to Tep. When you 'differentiate' 'abstract' then there is no you but the screen is differentiating thoughts and the watcher is the mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo message to Tep is reincluded by Htoo: > b) the screen watcher (your mind) 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) > 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) > 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) > 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) > 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) > 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: The separation of experience into namas and rupas is a conceptual activity. Do namas exist? Not without rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In pancavokaara bhuumis or in the realms where beings have all 5 aggregates of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana your statement is true. That is naama do not exist without ruupas. But in catuvokaara bhuumis or in the realms where there are beings who do not have any ruupa and just have 4 aggregates of vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana there are naama that exist without ruupas. They are called aruupa brahmas or non-material brahma-deva beings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Do rupas exist? Not without namas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong. There are unperceived sights. There are unheard sounds. There are unsmelled smells. There are untasted tastes. There are untouched touches. These are bahiddha dhamma. The Buddha very very frequently preached that there are ajjhatta and there are bahiddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Are they ultimates? Only as ultimate as the act of separating what is not separate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Real perceivers will only know these ultimacies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: I agree with you. And repeated reflection on any model of dhamma will highlight that a model is only a model. A model of reality is only as good as it allows one to describe and predict how reality unfolds. Some useful questions to ask in relation to any model are "Which observed phenomena does it fail to explain?" and "Which phenomena does it decribe or predict which remain unobserved or are unobservable?" Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear with your questions. What is phenomenon? But generally names or pannatti are unobserved. They are unobservable. They fail to explain. Because they are not ultimate realities. Example what is 'Herman'? Is it 'H' 'e' 'r' 'm' 'a' 'n'? No. With respect, Htoo Naing 47459 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:18am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing Dear Herman, > It is explicit: > Anguttara Nikaya V.57 > Upajjhatthana Sutta > > "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, > whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? > ""'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of > my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my > arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall > heir.'... > > Each stream makes kamma entirely individually. The streams sometimes > bump into each other and occasionally head the same way, but they > are still seperate. > > > The Abhidhamma specifically classifies Karauna (compassion) and > Mudita(sympathetic Joy). Metta and equanimity > are included under adosa and tatramajjhattata. These are the 4 ways > we ideally relate to others. > The other ways are with dosa (aversion), tanha (desire) and avijja > (unawareness). > > It seems to me that Abhidhamma covers the full range of social > activity so I don't see where we could add an extra citta. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Herman and all, Good. There is no social citta to add. With respect, Htoo Naing 47460 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Herman> James already has made the point more than adequately that >rupas in the suttas are not treated independently from namas, you do >not have one without the other. Consequently, there are no >characteristics of "rupas only" to be known, in the suttas, that is. > Yes, namas depend on rupas for their arising, and rupas cannot be experienced without namas. But it does not follow from that that 'there are no characteristics of "rupas only" to be known'. When it comes to insight development, each dhamma has its own characteristic to be known. At the moment of insight with one as object, there is no knowing of the other. I think this is clear from the suttas. >I do not know for sure, but it seems that Jon reads the satipatthana >sutta with abhidhamma glasses, and again I do not know for sure, but I >think James reads the same sutta with sutta glasses. > I would say that both James and I read the Satipatthana Sutta in the light of our knowledge of the Tipitaka as a whole, its commentaries and other texts. Right James? >I have no doubt that all of us at dsg wish to be of assistance to one >another, and I also think that a prerequisite for any discussion to be >therapeutic is that sender and recipient need to be in the same "space". > > Hmm, a prerequisite, you say. Who would decide, and how, whether 2 people were in the same space? Besides, it would take all the fun out of talking at cross-purposes ;-)). >It would be rather funny if a well-meaning physician handed a copy of >Gray's Anatomy to each of his patients with the advice to study up on >it and return at a later date so that the doctor could discuss the >problem at hand in his own terms. Wisdom would dictate (it did at >least in the case of the Buddha) that the therapist meets the patient >where the patient is at. A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma >view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that >an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired >outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where >they are at. > I think some of us are quite happy with occasional (or frequent) mismatches ;-)). Seriously though, thanks for the suggestion. I know what you mean. I will try in my own posts to establish appropriate common ground. Jon 47461 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:24am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 433 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Among kaama kusala kamma or kamma or sensuous implications there is a hierarchy kusala kamma. These kamma are 1. tihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'triple-rooted greater kamma' 2. tihetuka omaka kamma or 'triple-rooted lesser kamma' 3. dvihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'double-rooted greater kamma' 4. dvihetuka omaka kamma or 'double-rooted lesser kamma'. The first kamma arise when kusala actions are done with asankharika citta or 'unprompted consciousness' with panna. The second kamma is also the output of mahakusala citta with panna. But it is sasankharika citta and it needs to be prompted. That is why the kamma become lesser as compared to greater kamma. The same applies to latter two kamma but they are done without panna and they are both done with dvihetuka citta. So they are dvihetuka ukkattha kamma and dvihetuka omaka kamma. What are their results? 1. tihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'triple-rooted greater kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to happy rebirth at patisandhi kaala. This means that this kamma give rise to tihetuka patisandhi cittas. There are 4 tihetuka mahaavipaaka cittas, which are the results of 4 tihetuka mahaakusala cittas. With these 4 cittas, beings may be reborn as a human being, as a deva being in any of 6 deva realms. b) In the course of life, tihetuka ukkattha kamma give rise to 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas and 8 sahetuka mahaavipaaka cittas. In the course of life mahaavipaaka cittas serve as bhavanga cittas, tadaarammana cittas or retention consciousness and in the last moment it serves as cuti citta as tihetuka cuti citta. 2. tihetuka omaka kamma or 'triple-rooted lesser kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to happy rebirth in human realm or in one of 6 deva realms. But it gives rise to dvihetuka patisandhi cittas. These cittas are 4 naana-vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas or 4 mahaavipaaka citta without panna. Unfortunately beings these patisandhis cittas can never attain jhaana or magga in the same life unlike beings born with tihetuka patisandhi. b) In the course of life, tihetuka omaka kamma give rise to 4 naana- vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas and 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. 3. dvihetuka ukkattha kamma or 'double-rooted greater kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to happy rebirth at human realm or one of 6 deva realms but with dvihetuka patisandhi cittas. There are 4 dvihetuka patisandhi cittas and they are 4 naana-vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas or sensuous-resultant-consciousness without wisdom. b) In the course of life, this kamma gives rise to 4 naana-vippayutta mahaavipaaka cittas and 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. 4. dvihetuka omaka kamma or 'double-rooted lesser kamma' a) This kamma gives rise to only ahetuka patisandhi citta. So beings with this patisandhi citta will be those with congenital deafness, congenital blindness, beings with learning difficulties and mental retardation, and powerless lower devas. b) In the course of life, dvihetuka omaka kamma only gives rise to 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] It's only nama - that's the truth jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >I am writing mainly because your little paragraph above pricked my >interest. It did so because you are speaking sutta-speak here. Which I >do not wish to dissuade you from. > >But in fairness to Howard and James and Tep, whose understanding of >the Satipatthana sutta you nitpick to a thousand unrecognisable >pieces, how does reflecting come about? How does seeing what happens >come about? And whatever you answer, how do those things come about? >And those? And those? > > Reflecting comes about because one is interested in the subject matter, and one sees the value in further developing that interest (has a sense of urgency, samvega). Present interest is the sum total of interest accumulated in the past, and likewise the present sense of urgency. This is how it has always been, without any perceivable beginning (according to the Buddha). >I would prefer it if you didn't answer. > Too late. You should've put this at the beginning ;-)) Jon 47463 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:40am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 434 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma After delineation on akusala kamma and kaama kusala kamma, in this post ruupa kusala kamma will be talked. There are 5 ruupa kusala kamma. These 5 kamma are the result of 5 ruupa kusala. 5 ruupa kusala are 5 ruupavacara rupakusala cittas. They are 5 ruupa jhaanas. 1.vitakka,vicara,piti,sukha,ekaggata sahitam 1stjhana rupakusala citta 2.vicara, piiti, sukha, ekaggata sahitam 2nd jhaana rupakusala citta 3.piiti, sukha, ekaggata sahitam 3rd jhaana ruupakusala citta 4.sukha, ekaggataa sahitam 4th jhaana ruupakusala citta 5.upekkha, ekaggataa sahitam 5th jhaana ruupakusala citta are 5 jhaanas. When these cittas arise they already created 5 ruupa kusala kamma. These kamma can give rise to 5 ruupavipaaka cittas. Even though there are 5 ruupa kusala kamma there are many ruupa kusala kamma according to the strength of jhaana cittas. Those who attain jhaana may just obtain it and near dying he or she stay again in that jhaana and this leads to rebirth in corresponding ruupa brahma (jhaana) bhuumi or realms. This kind of jhaana is the weakest and called hina-jhaana. Those who attain jhaana may practise their jhaana to proficient level that is whenever they want their jhaana they are able to do so and whenever they want to exit they can do so and they are said to be very proficient in their jhaana. This jhaana when arise in near dying can give rise to rebirth in brahma bhuumi or fine material realms. This kind of jhaana is paniita jhaana. Those who attain jhaana and they practise their jhaana for some time but not to that level of very proficient as in case of paniita jhaana. Their jhaana is said to be the middle one or majjhima jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47464 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:43am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 01 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 1. Nivarana Pabba or 'section on hindrances' There are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. There are 5 contemplations on each of these 5 nivaranas or hindrances or obstructions. 1. kaamacchanda nivarana (obsturction by sense-desire) 2. byaapaada nivarana (obstruction by malevolence) 3. thina-middha nivarana (obstruction by sloth-torpor) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana(obs. by upset-worry) 5. vicikiccha nivarana (obstruction by suspicion or sceptical doubt) What do they obstruct? They obstruct reaching magga naana. They hinder arising of magga nana. But they are not self. They are just dhamma. 5 contemplations on each of these 5 nivarana or obstructions are 1. It is present now. 2. It is not present now. 3. It arises anew because of unwise attention. 4. It vanishes temporarily because of wise attention. 5. It is eradicated because of higher naana (magga naana). So there are 25 contemplations. Is this possible to note in such a way while meditators are still not ariyas? Mahasatipatthana sutta describes all that can be done. The last contemplation is for ariya of different stages. Because they do know that when magga naana arises 'permanent vanishment of nivarana'. So that permanent eradication is noted by respective ariyas and for puthujana or ordinary people or beings they just note that if sotapatti/ sakadagami/ anagami / arahatta magga arise so and so nivarana will be eradicated. So they will be doing dhammanupassana on nivarana with sutamaya (learned) and cintamaya (thought out) wisdom as the 5th contemplation on nivarana. As there are 5 nivarana or 5 hindrances then there are 25 contemplations on nivarana or obstructions or hindrances. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47465 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm philofillet Hi Azita > My point in asking the question was, of course, to remind > > everyone out there that there are many suttas which *do not yet > apply > > to us* guess. > Azita; at times, I react with a degree of frustration at some of the > above suttas simply bec. I know it doesn't relate to me and if I took > them at word value then I would think that the Path was very easy. > Many, I think, are addressed to ariyans, not us worldlings. Ph: Actually, I thought after posting that I had misworded it a but. They do apply to us in that we can read them and reflect on them and understand our ignorance a little better. I find that strangely liberating - takes a load off. For example, when I read the fire sutta ("world is burning through the eye" etc and the anatta sutta, in which it is said that there is no self that can cause desired states to arise, and then see in both suttas that it is only the ariyan who develops revulsion, dispassion etc it is certainly sobering. But it also allows me to relax and not press too hard for results. We know what we *can* know, not what we *want* to know. We know what we can, we do what we can. There is no reason to fret. "You have no trouble," A Sujin says at one point. When we get stressed or feels frustration related to Dhamma it is akusala. So I would say that the path *is* easy, and if it isn't we're going about it the wrong way - easy as long as know our limits. > I like K.Sujin's 'ocean of concepts' and that wisdom is the island > in the ocean. When I contemplate this, I realise how important > Khanti - patience - is. Ph: I like when someone (Sarah?) points out that khanti doesn't mean patience in the ordinary sense of putting up with difficult people and situations - that's all about stories and there is sure to be akusala involved - but rather not wanting to shift the attention from whatever object is arising, being patient with the present reality - to whatever degree we know it, of course. > Which brings me to the point I realy want to > discuss. > I was thinking about my interactions with friends and the certain > relationships I have with them. That I have expectations of them and > if those expectations are not met then something doesn't feel right. > But occasionally I see that if I had no defilements, then there would > be no expectations and that those beings would be seen maybe with > compassion and loving kindness rather then attachment, aversion etc Ph: Azita, I think it was you who so forcefully encourages us in that "there is no Nina" talk that we really must get it at the beginning, though only intellectually, that there are no people in Dhamma reality terms. Don't you find that intellectual knowledge helps you to let go of expectation re people even as it doesn't interfere with the arising of compassion, friendliness, concern for them? I really feel this aspect of Dhamma is win-win. We let go of disappointments re people, but preseve our capacity to care for them, help them. At least we move in that direction. I certainly still get pissed off at people and sometimes imagine them exploding! (Sorry, bad timing with the London tragedy, but it's true! Expecially noisy motorcyclists.) But those are just accumulations of irritation that will continue to keep arising for a long time. That can't be controlled. So the patience is with the arising of these conditioned realities, not with the people I am dealing with. (Actually, imagining annoying people exploding is akusala kamma patha so I think I will be a little less patient with that.) > I can't make compassion arise likewise I can't not have aversion > when it is there already. Probably the most relevant sutta for me is > the adaze handle one, as i interperate that as encouraging patience > and that its pointless to wonder how much wisdom one has, it only > grows when it arises and it can no more be 'made' to arise than can > compassion whn there are no conditions for it. Ph: Yes that's one of those suttas that is just so profound. There are so many of them. I so often feel in awe of the depth of the Buddha's wisdom. All the literature of the world pales in comparison in my opinion. Shakespeare now reads like Harold Robbins. > > So, on and on I puddle/muddle seemingly expecting more from the > conventional realities than from paramattha dhammas but there is > little panna to know - right now I guess its just a whole mob of > moha. here's another line for our hit song 'mo,mo,mo haha' panna moha mana MANA moha moha mo moha moha mo mo moha sati panna PING! This is turning into a good song, Azita! Metta, Phil 47466 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:08am Subject: Re: It's only nama - that's the truth philofillet Hi Kel As you know, I kind of gassed my way through your questions below in a very uncertain way. That afternoon, I heard something from A. Sujin that made me feel quite pleased by my inability to answer them! It was this: "As long as we cannot know the moment of satipatthana, it's impossible just to say that we understand satipatthana." So the reason I couldn't really answer your questions is that I *cannot* answer them, I have not accumualted enough understanding, rather than that I *do not know* the answers...if you see what I mean. Will that stop me from giving my opinions about satipatthana instead of asking questions and listening? We'll see. Giving a gassy (ie not rooted in real understanding) opinion and having it gently pointed out the way you did to me is helpful. Please keep an eye on me and ask these sort of questions when you see that I am being particularly gassy. Metta, Phil > Hi Phil, > > > As for the idleness, there is no way to comminicate the confidence > > we come to feel in kusala when it is conditioned and developed in > > daily life. > > A few questions: > > 1) How do you know it's kusala and not miccha-sati? > 2) How do you know if it's samma-sati with panna or not? > 3) How do you know if it's not mana? > > - kel 47467 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Nina, and all > > Everyone has occasional kusala moments in which there is always > > detachment. In the following split second, there can be attachment to > > detachment. But if we have developed a little right understanding, > > there will be fewer conditions for that akusala moment to arise. > --- > N: Yes, I catch myself having attachment to the idea of detachment. I listen > to tapes while I am copying for Sarah, and I hear: there is lobha all the > time. Even kusala: it is for our own sake. Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I think that was careless wording on her part. (BTW, as an ESL teacher struggling with Japanese students who just never seem to get it, I am amazed how accurately you and A. Sujin use English, which is not your native language, to discuss subtle, abstract points. Especially A. Sujin, since English is so radically different from Thai.) I don't know how there can be detachment from the beginning. I think there can only be rare moments of it as Ken says above. I'm glad to be reminded that there is detachment with all kusala moments. This helps us understand how rare kusala is. There is certainly not detachment when we do something that we think is wholesome, in the conventional sense, because it is all about us being wholesome. I am not discouraged by the rarity of kusala - I'm grateful that I've come to understand this instead of plunging ahead merrily in imitation kusala. > I wrote to Phil about the beneficial condition of reading suttas, and Phil > responded: but there should be no expectations. > When I am not in the right frame of mind, I do not always like to hear such > things, I have some moments of irritation, like Phil also had. Dan said, > that is a good thing. Right. > First there is irritation, and then we see that the right point was hit. Ph: Yes, very interesting to see which points get hit. Sometimes it can't be seen, of course. The irritation is general and pervasive and wraps around the whole day. Thanks to the Buddha's teaching I have been able to more often remember that caring about this irritation is just all about putting too much emphasis on self. > I am grateful to all Dhamma friends who remind me! At first we believe that > there is pure kusala, that there is mindfulness, but then we learn that > there is a form of lobha we take for kusala. Lobha can also be accompanied > by indifferent feeling, and then it is hard to notice it. > I have to understand that there are many more moments of lobha than kusala. > Theoretically I understand, but, as to the level of practice, not yet. > Expectations do enter. Ph: And there is also wholesome chanda at times, and samvega, and wholesome virya, and other kusala cetasikas. Because you have developed right understanding (I think) you don't cling to them as much as one would otherwise and are able to speak about all your lobha. Thus the kusala comes, it sneaks up and arises through you and is accumulated because you are not trying for it, not clinging to it. Well, of course you're clinging to it a lot of the time. But because you don't make an intentional effort to have kusala, you are more likely to have kusala. When there is an intentional effort to have kusala, how on earth can there be anything other than lobha involved? I just don't get that. Is the lobha that is involved in the intentional effort somehow transformed and nulified by the intentionally generated kusala? It just falls away, is shed like wate? I don't think so. It seems to me that the whole exercise would have to be all about lobha. But I am just saying that off the top of my head. I would be happy to know that I am wrong about that. A bit off topic there...I use "you" there instead of my usual "we"...but it's not about Nina, of course. There is no Nina in Dhamma reality, only the arising of right understanding, clinging, mana, metta and so on and so on and so on.... Metta, Phil 47468 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:27am Subject: To Sarah & All... balancing_life Hi Sarah Thank you very much for your kind understanding and also thanks very much for sharing with me, your knowledge & wisdom about Lord Buddha's teachings. Just to explain, the very first thing that i did after reading Buddhism books were not to take lives, and that meant to me to become a vegetarian, but unfortunately although i love vegetables, i failed, cos although i do not order pork, beef, mutton or chickens for my meals, i still cannot resist eating KFC, fish meat, prawns, cockles, cuttlefish & squid...and if some of them came along with the foods i ordered, i had to finish them off, as it has been ingrained in me by my mum, since very young to finish everything that is on my plate or else in my next life, i wouldn't have anything to eat. (There was once in this documentary about the starving Indians or Afghanistanans, that they were sweeping the floor & the lorry, with a broom & dustpan, coupled with dust, after the staff of a rice house, had finished carrying sacks of rice from a lorry to the shophouse, leaving behind rice that had seeped out of the rice sacks...so pathetic.) I once asked a Mahayana monk about this, and he said not to worry about it, as i am just a "layperson", but he advised me only to buy only cooked food or "dressed" chickens, ie, not to give an order to slaughter, "live" chickens, cattle, goats, pigs, prawns, etc. In Islam, pork is definitely out of the menu and they are not allowed to go close to pigs & dogs, and speaking about dogs, there is one time, a pet dog was missing and it was found to be cooked and eaten by a group of illegal Vietnamese immigrants living somewhere in the vincinity and when asked why they did it, they said they were hungry and had nothing to eat...so pitiful. In Islam, pork & dogs are called "Haram", meaning "illegal" and food & other stuff that is not meant for the Muslims, have a sign that says "Tidak Halal", meaning "Not Kosher". To get this "Halal" sign, they must ask the Islamic court department to inspect the place, like in Hotels & some restaurants to give them the OK. And Muslims can buy "dressed" chickens only from Malay shops/hawker stalls, as before the chickens are killed, the slaughterer of the chickens, will utter an islamic phrase, before making a cut on their throats, and as such they are not permitted to buy any chickens from other races, as it is considered "Non Halal". Fyi, most hotels and all McDonald & KFC franchises are "Halal" or else they won't be permitted to operate here in Malaysia...even most chicken, mutton or beef sausages sold in the supermarkets are "Halal", as there is a sign or a chop on it and if there is no sign of that, Muslims are not allowed to buy it or else they will be sectioned off in a "Non-Halal" section. When i first read about the precept of not taking lives, including insects, at first i was also so depressed that we are not allowed to kill mosquitoes that are sucking my blood, but just to brush them away, and also that means also not to kill cockroaches, but having the experience of the foul smelling creature, if they were given the chance to multiply, they will quickly infest the whole house, and each time that i see one crossing my path, i would kill it, whilst uttering "Om Mani PadMe Hum"...hmmm, definitely so unBuddhist of me, but i've got no choice. And after reading all those Buddhism books, my anger has more or less dissapatied, although i do feel hurt & dissapointed with ManKind, whenever people are angry with me or when Buddhism yahoo groups members fight amongst themselves, and fyi, i have never in my life, had a verbal fight or otherwise, with anyone in my life. My depression is not about the anger, with the ones who caused my niece's death, but about my own regrets, about not knowing more or being closer to my nieces, that they can approach me, if they have any problems...as i said earlier, i always thought they would be here forever, ie, that they would outlive me...it's just that i do not understand why kids, just at the age of 12, would do such a thing? (just wondering, what is the reason they did this, when my niece is such a nice kid...not to say that, just b'cos that she is my niece, that i would say that, but i sorta know my niece's character and attitude by now, since they have been staying with me on alternate Friday nites & i have been chaffeuring them, for more than five years). Her sister would start sweeping my apartment & cleaning the windows & glass doors, whenever she comes to stay with me...not that i had ever even asked her, but she did it on her own...guess it's her hobby to do so. Luckily, i do not have any kids, or else i would literally go insane, if they were to pass on before me, eventhough i am a Buddhist & know that i am supposed to be detached or to have no attachment to anything or anybody. A very sad story indeed , about a mother's grief that you told me about, carrying her child's ashes with her...inconsolable grief. My brother...anger yes, definitely, cos she was his favourite loved one, although he loved all his daughters in the same way, but she, being the first born and being able to communicate with him in a special way, have contributed more to his loss, grief & pain...his loss is irreplaceable and yes i know the story about a woman's child who died and asked Buddha to revive her (or something like that) and Buddha has asked her to get a mustard leaf or is it a seed from a home that has never faced any deaths in a family before, and she came back empty handed & realised that deaths in a family, is inevitable. Let us say, that sadly, my brother is a person, who would "cut off his nose, in order to spite his face" and anybody who has "stepped on his tail", would be severely "punished" & that is why he is reminding them yearly, which i feel the money of just a day's advertisement, (it costs him about RM2,000 or USD 500), could be put to a better use...more than a month's salary, in my case. There is no use in talking or persuading him otherwise and the other day, as i told you about how i met my father's neighbours recently, and mentioned it to him, he was very angry with me and in an angry tone, asked me why in the world, would i want to remind him of his grief, loss & pain and talking about it, would it be of any use to him and told me that he already knows the story and asked me back, if i wanted to know the names of the people involved...after which, i kept quiet/silent. It's just that he still has "attachement" to her and is still unable to "let go" yet, since she died in such a tragic circumstance...if she passed away, due to an illness, then he probably would not feel that way...as Muslims would say, "Insyallah", meaning "God's Will" or in Buddhist terms, Karma/Kamma, Fate/Fated, Destiny or Kismet. Like you, Sarah, eversince i have been a very young gal, a pre- schooler, i was not like the normal kids, meaning, i would sit down on a rattan chair after my dinner at 5pm, in the garden and my favourite past-time would be looking at the clouds, watching them changing shapes, as they rolled away in the skies, and i would wonder why on earth i was put on Earth for, ie, for what purpose...very deep thinking for a kindergartener, isn't it, and when i found Buddhism, i at last, wondered no more...i think that i must have been a Buddhist, in my last life as well. Ok, gotto go and don't worry about me...my depression is about other things now, as i feel that i have used up all my good Karma and is now reaping my bad Karma, but Buddhism has helped me to understand that nothing is forever and everything is just temporary and not permanent...well, i hope so...so when you don't hear from me anymore or that i have unsubscribed from here, then expect the worst scenario. I kept telling my friend, who knows about my problem that i am facing rite now, (which is beyond & out of my control) that i wanted to commit suicide to escape this suffering that i am facing rite now and he advised me not to, and to watch "Constantine" by Keenanu Reavees, saying that if i were to do so, i won't be re-incarnated and what is keeping from doing that, is in my next life, it would be worse than this life, that i am having now...so again don't worry, as i do not want to suffer anymore sufferings in the future, but just to accept this suffering in this life, no matter how bad it is going to be...and as for me, this life of mine has ended, before it has even began. With Metta to all members, :} AliceInAlwaysInOptimisticLand Hi Alice, Thank you for your kind email letters. I enjoy discussing the Dhamma with you and I'm very glad to see your discussion with RobM as well. <...> 47469 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin > said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I think that was > careless wording on her part. (BTW, as an ESL teacher struggling > with Japanese students who just never seem to get it, I am amazed > how accurately you and A. Sujin use English, which is not your > native language, to discuss subtle, abstract points. Especially A. > Sujin, since English is so radically different from Thai.) I don't > know how there can be detachment from the beginning. ++++++++++ Dear Phil, I don't think there was any error in wording by A. Sujin. The path is always associated with alobha- detachment- and wisdom. If it is not it is something else, some other path. This is even at the very weakest level, when detachment and wisdom may be weak. Consider what Jon wrote today: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: """Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. What I mean is, if you regard the Buddha's teaching as being in effect, 'Pay attention, but that of course means only with kusala kusala mind-state', then that is no longer a reference to a conventional activity, any more than if he were to say, 'Be more generous' or 'Develop metta'. You seem to regard the inevitable akusala moments as a harmless by-product of moving in the right direction. I think this would be a mistake. Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are."" endqoute Jon. Robert Jon 47470 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:30am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.7 Kamma (2) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: ___________________________________________ MAHINDA e-CORRESPONDENCE COURSE Basic Paper 2 MODULE 2.7 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (2) The Laws of Cosmic Order Although Buddhism teaches that Kamma is the chief cause of the inequalities in the world yet it does not teach fatalism or the doctrine of predestination, for it does not hold the view that everything is due to past actions. The law of cause and effect (Kamma) is only one of the twenty-four causes described in Buddhist philosophy, or one of the five orders (Niyamas), which are laws in themselves and operate in the universe. They are: 1. Utu Niyama, physical inorganic order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The inerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., belong to this group. 2. Bija Niyama, order or germs and seeds (physical organic order) e.g., rice produced from rice seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. 3. Kamma Niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Kamma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the moon and stars. 4. Dhamma Niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature, the reason for being good and so forth may be included in this group. 5. Citta Niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, telepathy, telesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading, all psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science are included in this class. Abhidhammavatara, pg 54 These five orders embrace everything in the world and every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by them. They being laws in themselves require no lawgiver and Kamma as such is only one of them. Classification of Kamma Kamma is classified into four kinds according to the time at which results are produced. There is Kamma that ripens in the same lifetime, Kamma that ripens in the next life, and Kamma that ripen in successive births. These three types of Kamma are bound to produce results, as a seed is to sprout. But for a seed to sprout, certain auxiliary causes such, as soil, rain etc. are required. In the same way, for a Kamma to produce an effect, several auxiliary causes such as circumstances, surroundings, etc., are required. It sometimes happens that for want of such auxiliary causes Kamma does not produce any result. Such Kamma is called Ahosi-Kamma or "Kamma that is ineffective". Kamma is also classified into another four kinds according to its particular function. 1. There is Regenerative (Janaka) Kamma which conditions the future birth; 2. Supportive (Upatthambhaka). Kamma which assists or maintains the result of already-existing Kamma, 3. Counteractive (Upapilaka) Kamma which suppresses or modifies the result of the reproductive Kamma, and 4. Destructive (Upaghataka) Kamma, which destroys the force of existing Kamma and substitutes its own resultants. There is another classification according to the priority of results. 1. There is Serious or Weighty (Garuka) Kamma, which produces its resultants in the present life or in the next. On the moral side of this Kamma the highly refined mental states called Jhanas or Absorptions are weighty because they produce resultants more speedily than the ordinary unrefined mental states. On the opposite side, the five kinds of immediately effective serious crimes are weighty. These crimes are: matricide, patricide, the murder of an Arahanta (Holy One or perfect saint), the wounding of a Buddha and the creation of a schism in the Sangha. 2. Death-proximate (Asanna) Kamma is the action which one does at the moment before death either physically or mentally - mentally by thinking of one's own previous good or bad actions or having good or bad thoughts. It is this Kamma, which, if there is no weighty Kamma, determines the conditions of the next birth. 3. Habitual (Acinna) Kamma is the action which one constantly does. This Kamma, in the absence of death-proximate Kamma, produces and determines the next birth. 4. Reserved (Katatta) Kamma is the last in the priority of results. This is the unexpended Kamma of a particular being and it conditions the next birth if there is no habitual Kamma to operate. A further classification of Kamma is according to the place, in which the results are produced, namely:- 1. Immoral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of misery. Immoral Kamma is rooted in greed (Lobha) anger (Dosa) and delusion (Moha). There are ten immoral actions (Kamma)-namely killing, stealing, unchastity (these three are caused by deed); lying, slandering, harsh speech, frivolous talk (these four are caused by speech); covetousness, ill-will and false view (these three are caused by mind). 2. Moral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of the world of desires. Good Kamma which produces its effect in the plane of desires:- There are ten moral actions - namely generosity (Dana), morality (Sila), Meditation (Bhavana), reverence (Apacayana), service (Veyyavacca), transference of merit (Pattidana), rejoicing in others' merit (Pattanumodana), hearing the doctrine (Dhammasavana), expounding the doctrine (Dhammadesana), and forming correct views (Ditthijukamma). 3. Moral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of form. Good Kamma which produces its effect in the planes of form. It is of five types which are purely mental, and done in the process of meditation, viz:- a. The first stage of Jhana or absorption which has five constituents: initial application, sustained application, rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind. b. The second stage of Jhana, which occurs together with sustained application, rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind. c. The third stage of Jhana which occurs together with rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind. d. The fourth stage of Jhana, which occurs together with happiness and one-pointedness of mind. e. The fifth stage of Jhana, which occurs together with equanimity and one-pointedness of mind. 4. Moral Kamma, which produces its effect in the plane of the formless. Good Kamma which produces its effect in the formless planes. It is of four types, which are also purely mental and done in the process of meditation, viz: a. Moral consciousness dwelling in the infinity of space. b. Moral consciousness dwelling in the infinity of consciousness. c. Moral consciousness dwelling on nothingness. d. Moral consciousness wherein perception is so extremely subtle that it cannot be said whether it is or is not. Questions 1. Why not everything is due to Kamma? 2. What kind of kamma takes effect in the following situation? a. A person work very hard and he then gained fame and riches. b. In his previous life, he is a merciless murderer but repent at his death bed and determine to make amend if he is given another opportunity to be reborn a human again. He is now a man again but born cripple. c. He can remember his past life. Answers (Module 2.6) 1. In the Law of Kamma, good beget good, bad beget bad, and then good plus bad will beget what effect? The Law of Kamma does not directly neutralize the effect of bad deeds with a good deed. One cannot escape form the punishment of murdering by performing a lot of generosity (except in the case of bribery which is short term escapism). The impact of bad deeds will give rise to bad effects and the same goes to the impact of good deeds. These explained all the inequalities of life why some people are born rich but a fool while some poor but wise. 2. What are the major similarities and differences between the aw of Kamma and the Theory of the Creator God? Similarities: a. They are like a judge for our action. b. Both teach us the lessons of what is wholesome and what is unwholesome and the effects of good deeds as well as bad deeds. Differences: d. The Law of Kamma have no mercy to forgive one's wrong action while the God accordingly is full of love, compassion and can decide to over rule the judgement if one repents. e. The Law of Kamma decide how you are born in this world (be it in a favourable condition or unfavourable state of living depending on your past action) while the Creator God creates one with the intention one may follows His rules, believes in Him and later accepted into His Kingdom. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- 47471 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! nilovg Hi Colette, op 08-07-2005 16:53 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > colette: True, however you are apperently trying to asert that the > eye can only see a single sight, the ear can only hear a single > sound, etc. The mind has the choice to DISCRIMINATE AGAINST AND FOR > therefore when you say "seeing is one citta" you should be making > that statement more clear to the neophyte by reminding them of the > difficulty involved here since the eye sees more than a single sight. ------ N: The eye does not see, it is the base of seeing consciousness. The eye is rupa, it does not know anything. it does not know:' I am eyebase'. Some cittas see, others have judgements, are attached, have aversion or react with wisdom. There is only one citta at a time. ---------- > colette: true but since my brain cells are not programmed the same as > your brain cells .. ______ N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different from the Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating understanding and detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. ---------- > colette: > You can't say that the citta and cetasika fall away and then > say that they are carried to the next citta. ------ N: No. I did not mean that. The inclinations, tendencies, memories are carried on from moment to moment. But there is constant change. New accumulations are added, and there can also be a wearing away of bad tendencies. You can verify in your life that you remember, that you learn. There must be conditions for that. ------- C:Since I think I made my > point rather clear by using the wagon wheel marks in the earth > --------------------- N: This is about material phenomena, and different from what is mental. Your simile suggests something that lasts. --------- > colette: . the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta is of no value to > the knowledge once it has been learned. > --------------------- N: Citta and cetasikas are arising and falling away together. We could not say: knowledge is kept in the cetasika. Knowledge is accumulated in the citta. ------- > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > since the begining of time/history. > ---------------------------------- N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. ------- > C: No offense taken, just as I hope you do not take offense at my words > which are rather straight forward. ------- N: Not at all, I like straightforward remarks. Nina. 47472 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:10am Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , philofillet Hi Herman Thanks for waiting...you brought up a really interesting point for me...this idea that the teaching of elemental realities is a kind of papanca. I'd never thought about that. > > The following is an excerpt from the article on papanca from > Nyanatiloka's dictionary (snip) To be honest, I didn't read it - saving wear and tear on the old eyes - but I think I understand papanca from the honeyball sutta, at least in a general way. It's a fascinating topic. Rob M mentionned a book devoted to the topic. I'd like to read it. > It is clear from the section I quoted above that nibbana and papanca > are opposites. Ph: Oops I missed reading the aprt about nibbana. I'll tell you right now that nibbana is something that I hardly ever reflect on. I know it means cessation, the fuel is used up, the fire stops buring, there is an extinguishing. That is so far from my present reality... On the other hand, I've learned that we experience nibbana at each stage of enlightenment, so there is a taste of nibbana long before the ultimate cessation. Anyways, yes, I can see what you mean. In a way papanca and nibbana are opposites. The former is about formationas being spun on the frantically spinning loom of samsara, the latter is cessation of all that jazz. > > Compare that to the 37 things that lead to enlightenment, or the great > lists of namas and rupas that some suggest are essential to seek out > and know, and there you have my perplexion. Are there two Buddhisms, > one for those who do not even seek to discriminate between seeing and > hearing, and one for those who are inclined to know every phenomenon > according to any number of criteria? Ph: This is the really interesting point. I think that the 37 factors of enlightement and the survey of paramattha dhammas do indeed lead to papanca when we first encounter them. I think the 37 enlightenment factors are more likely to continue to cause unwholesome proliferation because they are so attractive and we cling to them so. The descriptions of right effort and satipatthana (the seven day plan!) are so attractive. It is harder to cling to subtle cetasikas and bhavanga cittas and so on. But yet, we think about them and think about them and that is proliferation. But the point of paramattha dhammas is anatta, and that's where the peace comes in. I think I am probably just fooling myself, as my friend James suggested, but I find such peace in understanding intellectually that all is not-self, arising due to conditions. The more we reflect on this and the deeper we understand the less we struggle to figure things out, the more content we become with present realities (conditions, situations, circumstances whatever.) I think this is particularly true when we remember that we *cannot understand or know most cetasikas* We have to know our limits. As A. Sujin said about anusayas (accumulations) "we cannot understand anusayas like Buddha, but we know there *is* anusayas as long as lokuttara citta does not arise. Is that not enough?" That could apply to any paramattha dhamma. It usually *isn't* enough. We try to understand more than we are capable of, and the peace of mind is gone. In that case, yes, all these detailed teachings would only lead to more proliferation. > It is not clear to me how analytical or synthesising > acts of the mind, as required by that current of Buddhism that > promulgates the need to know things at that elemental level which > supposedly is the real reality, are not a variety of papanca. To me, > it seems that when there is no analysis or no synthesis, there are not > elements, there is .......... Ph: Yes, I think we agree there. The point is that we shouldn't try too hard to understand the details. Understanding will arise in a conditioned way, "panna will work its way" as I heard today, or it won't. So the "analyzing" is *not* required - we tend to do too much of it, but we can let it go. BTW, what comes after the "there is...." above? Nibbana? Are you a believer in "nibbana now?" What do you take that to mean? I think there can certainly be calm now, peace of mind now, thanks to the Buddha's teaching of anatta, though there is more likely to be a kind of clinging to some kind of calm. But I don't understand this "nibbana now." Over to you, Herman :) Metta, Phil 47473 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 200 - 201 buddhistmedi... From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:45 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. Message # 1173. Dear Tep, The following Pali words may be inserted if they do not clash with the Pali words or translation that you have in your books. I have worked on paragraph 200 only because it will be the same for sannaa and vitakka. 200. How are feelings recognized as they arise (katham viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti?), recognized as they appear (established) (vidita upathahanti?), recognized as they subside? (vidita abbhattham gacchanti?) How is the arising of feeling recognized? (kathem vedanaaya uppaado vidito hoti?) The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance (avijja) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of craving (tanhaa) there is the arising of feeling. With the arising of action (kamma) there is the arising of feeling. The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of contact (phassa) there is the arising of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic of generation (nibbatti lakkhanam passato), he has recognized the arising of feeling. This is how the arising of feeling is recognized (evam vedanaaya uppaado vidito hoti). How is the appearance of feeling recognized? (katham vedanaaya upatthaanam veditam hoti?) When he gives attention [to feeling] as impermanent, the appearance (establishment) as exhaustion is recognized (aniccato manasikaroto khayatupatthaanam vidito hoti); when he gives [it] attention as painful, the appearance (establishment) as terror is recognized (dukkhato manasikaroto bhayatupatthaanam vidito hoti); when he gives [it] attention as not self, the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized (anattato manasikaroto sunnatupatthaanam vidito hoti). This is how the appearance of feeling is recognized (evam vedanaaya upatthaanam viditam hoti). How is the subsiding of feeling recognized? (katham vedanaaya atthangamo vedito hoti?) The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance (avijja) there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of craving (tanhaa) there is a cessation of feeling . With the cessation of action (kamma) there is a cessation of feeling. The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of contact (phassa) there is a cessation of feeling. Also when he sees the characteristic of change (viparinaama lakkhanam passato), he has recognized the subsiding of feeling. This is how the subsiding of feeling is recognized. (evam vedanaaya atthangamo vedito hoti) This is how feelings are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside (evam viditaa vedanaa uppajjanti, vidita upathahanti, vidita abbhattham gacchanti). [To repeat with sannaaa and vitakka] khayatupatthaanam = khaya-upatthanam, the appearance (establishment) as exhaustion bhayatupatthaanam = bhaya- upatthanam, the appearance (establishment) as terror sunnatupatthaanam = sunna-upatthanam, the appearance (establishment) as voidness ---------------------------- As regards your Notes: "It is also important to recognize that even the first object, long in- & out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity as described in para 194 (the Thai version says that when upekkha is established, cognizance will move away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths)." and "We may also say that the first vatthu of anapanasati can be employed to condition sati and sampajanna to arise with equanimity. At this point I would say the bhikkhu has developed both samatha and vipassana." -------------------- Han: Are you sure that even the first object, long in-& out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity? As far as I know the equanimity comes onlywith fourth jhaana at the end of second tetrad, not at this early stage. Yes, it will develop both samatha and vipassanaa at this stage, but not upekkhaa. Not yet. I also look at para 194 as you have suggested. But I do not find "upekkhaa" there. Even at the beginning of second tetrad the five jhaana factors of the first jhaana are (vitakka, vicaara, piti, sukha and ekaggataa) and not (vitakka, vicaara, piti, sukha and upekkhaa). Because upekkhaa does not arise together with sukha, and sukha is replaced by upekkhaa in fourth jhaana. With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ============== ---------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, interested DSG members - > > Han Tun's Pali contribution for Section iv, 197 - 199, is given below. > > Sincerely, > > > Tep > > ============== > > From: han tun > Date: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 197 - > 199. (message # 1111) > > Dear Tep, > > I have put in the Pali words, and broken up the paragraphs for easy > understanding. > > 197. 'He contemplates': how does he contemplate (anupassati) that > body [the seven contemplations]? He contemplates it > 47474 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 200 - 201/ Reply buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG members - The following email is my reply to Han Tun's inquiry. Best wishes, Tep ======== Dear Han {and other SariputtaDhamma Friends} - Thank you again, very much, for your consistency and quality of help. Because of your caution <"Are you sure that even the first object, long in-& out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity? As far as I know the equanimity comes only with fourth jhaana at the end of second tetrad, not at this early stage." and "I also look at para 194 as you have suggested. But I do not find "upekkhaa" there".> I was prompted to review para 194 again. You were right, the short paragraph 194 does not show 'upekkha' -- actually, it was my typo. The paragraph number was wrong! Please change it to para 195. The word 'equanimity' (upekkha) is in the last sentence of para 195: "As, through gladness (pamojja vasena), he breathes in and breathes out long in-breaths and out-breaths more subtle (sukhumataram) than before reckoned by extent (addhana sankhaate), his cognizance turns away from the long in-breaths and out-breaths, and equanimity is established". I am sure that even the first object, long in-& out- breaths, is good enough to condition equanimity because of the above sentence. But I am not clear whether this upekkha is the jhana factor or not. Can it be the neutral state that is temporarily free from lobha, dosa and moha -- but not yet the jhanic factor? With great appreciation and respect, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:45 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, > 200 - 201. Message # 1173. > > Dear Tep, > > The following Pali words may be inserted if they do not clash with the > Pali words or translation that you have in your books. I have worked on > paragraph 200 only because it will be the same for sannaa and > vitakka. > 47475 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Good suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't have a complementary to the whole Patisambhidamagga. However, I will try to search for an answer elsewhere. Yours truly, Tep = = = = = = --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Regarding how to recognize perception, by suggesting sign as perception > I wasn't confining it to the sign of concentration, but any sign. > Actually, I was thinking about movies. It seems to me that a movie is > packed full of signs of pleasure and pain. A more subtle case would be > signs of passion in music. Do you have access to a commentary on para. > 201? I think we need more info on how to recognize recognition > (perception). > > Larry 47476 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 194 - 196. buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Thanks for doing a good job in clarifying certain issues. > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jon Yes, Jon, it does. Best wishes, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > Time for my week-end burst of activity again ;-)). > >(snipped) > > > >Tep: I don't understand "Panna of the level of samatha bhavana does not directly experience the true nature of a presently arising dhamma". > > > > Jon: > Panna is a mental factor that knows directly or understands. However, there are different levels or degrees of knowing. The panna that arises with moments of samatha bhavana knows directly, for example, the kusala or akusala nature of mind states. Only the panna that arises at moments of insight development knows the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, that is, its nature as a nama or rupa, or its specific characteristic, or the characteristics that it shares in common with all other conditioned dhammas (anicca, dukkha, anatta). > > I hope this makes sense. > > Jon 47477 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/10/05 2:04:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: On the topic of similies/analogies like the Great Physician, there are many in the Dhamma as you know and the thought sometimes arises about how much we should read into them. Take the one of the teaching of Dhamma being the Lion's Roar. A lion's roar is something that stops you in your tracks and makes the hairs on your neck stand on end. In that sense, to me, the anatta teaching truly is the lion's roar. It is *such* a radical, far-reaching idea. There are times when it does make my spine shake. Those glimpses have not been when I am having a nice meditation seemingly in charge of "my volition", but when the mind is clearly at the mercy of conditions (despite what volition wills). ======================= One's current volition is one condition out of many, many conditions, and is not controlling, though, as all conditions, it bears influence. As for "my" volition, as you have properly pointed out, there is no "one" who wills - there is just the impulsion. The only sense in which there is "my" volition is that of distinguishing between "this" namarupic stream from "that". That last point is an interesting one, though. What makes this stream "mine" and that stream "yours"? I remember as a child mulling over again and again and again what I considered a great, great mystery of identity that I couldn't unravel: "Why am "I", I? Why am "I" not him?" There is a strangeness to so-called personal identity that I picked up on, a sensing that I now think was a vague realization of its illusoriness. But that illusoriness is not a simple matter. It is very, very deep and truly inexplicable, because at the very same time that there is no way to get a handle on this seeming separateness, there is yet a clear distinguishing of "this" mindstream from all others. There are levels and levels to no-self, I think, and mystery upon mystery, and from time to time we get to grasp just the tiniest pieces of what anatta is all about. I toy with the idea that all separate identities are illusions that are based on a misapprehension of one great mystery that is real but is as insubstantial and elusive as anything can be. I suspect, and some will consider this heretical, that there *is* a dynamic, multi-faced, ultimately indescribable and ungraspable suchness - an impersonal "field", neither you nor me nor this nor that, that is timeless, unconditioned, without stain, without limit, and real, the one and only true reality, but a reality that is empty of all conditions and of anything by which it could be truly characterized - nothing holy, just "vast emptiness rolling on," the ultimate emptiness: nibbana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47478 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I made a silly error in the previous message (see below). I had typed "complementary"; it was meant to be "commentary" instead. A good news - I have found a computer CD of the Thai version of Patisambhidhamagga with Commentary ! It is quite a long document to study (not just for reading through). So we will have many more thought sharing for many more months to come. Yours truly, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Larry - > > Good suggestion. Unfortunately, I don't have a complementary to the > whole Patisambhidamagga. However, I will try to search for an answer > elsewhere. > > Yours truly, > > Tep > 47479 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/10/05 6:17:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard Thanks for your many comments on my last post, which I have noted. Towards the end of your post you say something that neatly encapsulates the issues, so if you don't mind I'll go straight to that. You say: " ... But paying attention to what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous." Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, I see. So you believe that the Buddha expected perfection in worldlings. I thought that all he required in order to go ahead with teaching was that there be some folks with but little dust in their eyes. But, Jon, what I see here is very revealing to me, and cuts right to the heart of the matter. It is clear to me that you and some others here believe that unless there is already perfection, there is no point in doing anything, for if there is any akusala, any sense of self, any grasping at all, any action is vitiated. That is most certainly a doctrine of hopelessness, for we ALL begin FILLED with akusala. Frankly, it amazes me how anyone could have read many, many suttas and come away with the idea that the Buddha didn't teach the performing of conventional actions. I find it utterly amazing! I find that to be a perverse view, and I strain to imagine what attractiveness one might find in it. -------------------------------------------- If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well. I don't so regard it. By paying attention, I mean the ordinary conventional paying attention to all states, without selection or preference. Sometimes there is wholesomeness and sometimes not, not directly controllable. We need to pay attention as best we can and see what is what as best we can. If we don't bother to do this because there is no guarantee at all of doing it perfectly, then we have ever right to have no expectation whatsoever of ever awakening. ------------------------------------- What I mean is, if you regard the Buddha's teaching as being in effect, 'Pay attention, but that of course means only with kusala kusala mind-state', then that is no longer a reference to a conventional activity, any more than if he were to say, 'Be more generous' or 'Develop metta'. --------------------------------------- Howard: A moot point. I don't regard it so. -------------------------------------- You seem to regard the inevitable akusala moments as a harmless by-product of moving in the right direction. --------------------------------------- Howard: Really! Of course I don't regard the unwholesome as harmless. Moreover, I don't regard it as a by-product of moving in the right direction. Wholesome states are such a by-product. --------------------------------------- I think this would be a mistake. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yeah, me too. ----------------------------------- Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) ------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, there ya go - I must learn to curtail that unapproved terminology! -------------------------------------- that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are. --------------------------------------- Howard: And continuing that thought: Since there will be such moments, there is no practice to engage in - case closed. I say false premiss, false conclusion. As computer geeks say: GIGO. --------------------------------------- I of course agree with the point you often make that we have to begin where we are (that is, as relatively deluded, kilesa-ridden individuals), but I see this as meaning that the moments of actual insight development will be few and far between. I do not see it as meaning that we should feel free to pursue a particular practice knowing that it will involve frequent moments of akusala. ------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, boy! ;-)) ------------------------------------ Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47480 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:15am Subject: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Dear Jon ( and Howard) - Jon (to Howard in #47479): Thanks for elaborating on the value of the conventional action of 'paying attention' as you see it. You rightly observe that it is bound to involve frequent moments of akusala, because of our imperfections, but you see it also as involving some moments of kusala (and indeed wisdom, I believe). To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. ------------------------------------------ Tep: I have followed your dialog with Howard with appropriate attention. That is, I pay attention only to the points of discussion that are conducive to wisdom and gladness, and I simply ignore anything else that is not beneficial to my learning for clearer understanding. This strategy of listening is one aspect of 'yoniso-manasikara'. The choice to ignore something(akusala) and to pay attention to something else (kusala) is a 'cetana'. Cetana is action. Without cetana to choose the right dhamma, how can there be appropriate attention? Without yoniso- manasikara how can be arising of kusala dhammas? Indeed intention (cetana) may be kusala or akusala. But when guided by yoniso-manisikara, we don't end up in akusala vipaka. Only when we are perfect in sila, then other kusala mental states like samadhi and panna would follow with no intention - i.e. an "act of will" is not needed - as stated in the following sutta. "For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue. For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse. ... ... "For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in body experiences pleasure. ... ... ... "For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are. ... ... ... "For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release. [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] Tep : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida0 -- > Dispassionate (Viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). There should be no question in any Buddhist mind how to practice in order to become cunsummate in virtues. Whether you want to or not, is another issue (but not for discussion). Best wishes, Tep ==== > > In a message dated 7/10/05 6:17:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@n... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for your many comments on my last post, which I have noted. > Towards the end of your post you say something that neatly encapsulates the issues, so if you don't mind I'll go straight to that. You say: > > " ... But paying attention to > what arises in the moment and cultivating the habit of doing that in an > ongoing fashion was taught by the Buddha, and is useful and wholesome. We are all imperfect in our carrying out what the Buddha taught, but to say that the fact that there may be akusala moments at times, even frequently, justifies making no effort to pay attention to what is happening strikes me as frankly ludicrous." > 47481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, I shall answer later on, I have guests tomorrow. Yes, I have Co on perception and would like to say something, but the time! Nina. op 10-07-2005 01:48 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > BT: "the appearance(establishment) as voidness is recognized. This is > how the appearance of feeling is recognized." > > Hi again Tep and Nina, > > Regarding the appearance of perception, would that be the appearance of > a sign? > 47482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) nilovg Hi Phil, op 10-07-2005 14:31 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin > said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I think that was > careless wording on her part. ) I don't know how there can be detachment from the beginning. ------- N: I add something to what Rob said. I think it is helpful to understand first the difference between sati and forgetfulness. Difficult point, for me too! I like to discuss this. Perhaps you can add. We are usually forgetful while we walk around, looking at the table, or a cup, or a diamond. When our objective is not dana, sila or mental development, we think with akusala citta, mostly with lobha. But our listening to tapes, discussions or reading of suttas may have sunk in and can condition unexpectedly a moment of understanding one object through one doorway. Then there is a level of sati, sati with intellectual understanding stemming from listening, or sati with direct understanding. It does not matter and if we mind, there is lobha to an idea we have of sati. When we begin to realize that it is only visible object that can be seen, not a diamond, there is some detachment at that moment. Someone bluntly said: satipatthana takes the spice out of life. As laypeople we do not have to abstain from things of beauty, but in a way it is true that knowing that only visible object is seen, does bring a degree of detachment, right from the beginning. But momentary. Only for that moment. Also the development of the Path is momentary. Thus, how do we see the world? Only objects as they appear separately through the six doors. But this is the result of a development, still far off. ------ Nina. 47483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta nilovg Dear Htoo, As I understood, citta only produces rupa at the first submoment, at its arising moment. See Visuddhimagga XX, 31, citta is weak at the moments of its presence and its dissolution. The patisandhi-citta does not produce rupas, only kamma does at that moment, because the first citta in life is too weak to do so. Nina. 47484 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the Path? nilovg Dear Htoo, as I wrote to Rob: The four tetrads of anapanasati which is included in mindfulness of body, pertain successively to seeing the body in the body, feeling in the feeling, citta in citta and dhamma in dhamma. This is all explained in the Visuddhimagga. Each of these tetrads (groups of four) refers to one each of the four applications of mindfulness. I am very impressed that in Mindfulness of Breathing everything is included. I can quote more if you like. Nina. op 10-07-2005 10:45 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > If mental body is included in kaayanupassana The Buddha would not > have > preached on other satipatthaana of vedanaupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa, > and dhammaanupassanaa. 47485 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon {Attn. all members interested in anapanasati} - This message of yours indicates that we are rapidly reaching the point of marginal return in our discussion of breathing meditation! Jon: I hope you don't mind if I jump straight to the main point of your post. Tep: I don't mind, Jon. But it might be somewhat better to tell me why you skip the other issues. ------------------------- > Tep: >In SN LIV.13 (Ananda Sutta) the Buddha told the Ven. Ananda as >follows, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing(anapanasati), when >developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations >of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when >developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to >completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & >pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion". > >Putting the information in the Breathing Treatise (para 16 - 168) together >with SN LIV.13, there should be no doubts about the nature of the >samatha(8 jhanas) as being the important foundation of the Arahatta- >magga & phala development. > Jon: The passage you have quoted above needs to be read in the context of the sutta as a whole and indeed of the whole Tipitaka. Tep: You are really ambitious. To study the whole Tipitaka might take us the whole lifetime. So we end up doing nothing else but reading, considering, discussing, formulating hypotheses, and disbelieving each other. ----------------------------------- Jon: Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed samatha results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth in particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. Tep: You might have seen those suttas that focus on the first tetrad only? There are other short suttas I have seen that recommend using breathing meditation to practice calmness, but they are not about the full-blown 4-tetrad version in MN 118 or the Breathing Treatise of the great Arahant Sariputta. Please read Section iii again. If you disbelieve me, at least you should believe the Arahant's words. ------------------- Jon: So what is the difference between anapanasati as described in SN 54:13 and anapanasati as referred to in the context of the 38 or 40 subjects of contemplation for samatha bhavana? Tep: One of the authoritative voices who can answer your question (to the satisfy your heart desire) is Acariya Buddhaghosa. Similarities with the 40 subjects of samatha meditation are also described in the Visuddhimagga Chapter VIII. Just only the 1st tetrad alone, you would have the 4th jhana as the basis for vipassana to reach Arahantship : "... in the forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set about discerning this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the basis for comprehension of formations [with insight], he can reach Arahantship, the highest fruit." [ para 155, page 263. Vism VIII]. Vism Para 237 says the fourth tetrad deals only with "pure insight" while the previous three deal with serenity and insight. So, you may want to consider changing your view above. -------------------------------------------------------- Jon: In SN 54:13 the Buddha describes how a person who is highly developed in both anapanasati and vipassana can attain enlightenment with jhana citta as basis. In other words, he is describing not just samatha and not just vipassana, but the development of both together under very particular circumstances. Tep: It is up to you, Jon, to believe what you want to believe. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > >(snipped) > > Thus the words, "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing (anapanasati), when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion" should be understood as meaning that when anapanasati is developed and pursued *as set out in the following part of the sutta* (that is to say, in the case of the particular kind of individual there described, together with vipassana) it can bring the four foundations of mindfulness to completion. The following part of the sutta then explains in detail the development leading to the twin attainments of jhana and enlightenment with jhana as basis. > > I am not aware of jhana attained other than by anapanasati being given the same treatment elsewhere in the suttas. So I think SN 54:13 and the other suttas like it are specific to anapanasati, rather than being general to jhana. > > Jon 47486 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Why? With unlimited Karuna, Tep ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your reply and suggestion. Could you please re-read my > reply and the one you wrote that I replied? > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 47487 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 7/10/05 1:02:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, with regard to your saying that an akusala moment during a period of conventional practice (what I called "cultivational activity") is a moment of wrong practice, and any practice that includes akusala moments is not recommended by the Buddha, and hence such activity is not to be engaged in, I replied with the following: And continuing that thought: Since there will be such moments, there is no practice to engage in - case closed. I say false premiss, false conclusion. As computer geeks say: GIGO. I retract that last sentence of mine. It is rude, and I apologize for writing it. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47488 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi AndrewT, > > Are you saying you only see anatta when it's akusala vipaka and not > when it's kusala vipaka? :) > > - kel Dear Kel I was really generalising in a "daily life" kind of way. In terms of absolute realities and mind-moments, I don't think I can honestly say that I "see" anatta, just as I can't really say that I "directly know" dhammas. As I understand it, anatta is a characteristic of dhammas and "directly knowing" dhammas must entail "seeing" anatta. But can you see a characteristic without directly knowing a dhamma? What I am doing is probably a lesser thing of intellectually understanding concepts of realities - and because concepts don't have characterisitics, my whole experience mustn't have anything to do with anatta at all!? Does that make sense to you? If so ... help! I expect the times I was referring to (of *not* being 'in control'and realising it) have much akusala and go beyond vipaka; they are times seemingly dominated by dosa ... but maybe with a tiny bit of weak panna too? Kel, if I have confused the life out of you, serves you right for asking! (-: Keep smiling Andrew T 47489 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ======================= > One's current volition is one condition out of many, many conditions, and > is not controlling, though, as all conditions, it bears influence. As for > "my" volition, as you have properly pointed out, there is no "one" who wills - > there is just the impulsion. The only sense in which there is "my" volition is > that of distinguishing between "this" namarupic stream from "that". That last > point is an interesting one, though. What makes this stream "mine" and that > stream "yours"? I remember as a child mulling over again and again and again what > I considered a great, great mystery of identity that I couldn't unravel: "Why > am "I", I? Why am "I" not him?" There is a strangeness to so-called personal > identity that I picked up on, a sensing that I now think was a vague > realization of its illusoriness. But that illusoriness is not a simple matter. It is > very, very deep and truly inexplicable, because at the very same time that there > is no way to get a handle on this seeming separateness, there is yet a clear > distinguishing of "this" mindstream from all others. There are levels and > levels to no-self, I think, and mystery upon mystery, and from time to time we get > to grasp just the tiniest pieces of what anatta is all about. > I toy with the idea that all separate identities are illusions that are > based on a misapprehension of one great mystery that is real but is as > insubstantial and elusive as anything can be. I suspect, and some will consider this > heretical, that there *is* a dynamic, multi-faced, ultimately indescribable and > ungraspable suchness - an impersonal "field", neither you nor me nor this nor > that, that is timeless, unconditioned, without stain, without limit, and > real, the one and only true reality, but a reality that is empty of all conditions > and of anything by which it could be truly characterized - nothing holy, just > "vast emptiness rolling on," the ultimate emptiness: nibbana. Hi Howard Thanks for sharing these fascinating reflections. If you read my latest post to Kel, you will see that I am in no way qualified to add anything insightful, so I will leave it on the appropriate note of emptiness. (-: And catch up with you later on. Best wishes Andrew T PS I have just seen a booklet entitled "How to be a Contagious Christian". I wonder if there are any contagious Buddhists on DSG? Don't answer that! 47490 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hello again all I thought afterwards that the following is a bit extreme - implying that there is no kusala when we do conventionally wholesome things, such as helping others, studying Dhamma etc. > I'm glad to be > reminded that there is detachment with all kusala moments. This > helps us understand how rare kusala is. There is certainly not > detachment when we do something that we think is wholesome, in the > conventional sense, because it is all about us being wholesome. It would be better to say that we should accept that there is a lot of mana, lobha, wrong view involved at times, rising mixed with the kusala moments. One act of helping someone with a heavy bag, for example, is a lot more complex than it appears on the surface. There will be mana and lobha accompanying our good deeds at times, but it would be wrong in the way Ajahn Brahm was saying to say that we should stop doing them out of fear of attachment, that's for sure. I didn't mean to imply that. Metta, Phil 47491 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Tep: "A good news - I have found a computer CD of the Thai version of Patisambhidhamagga with Commentary ! It is quite a long document to study (not just for reading through). So we will have many more thought sharing for many more months to come." Hi Tep, This is good news. I look forward to whatever you can share. Larry 47492 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm corvus121 Hi again Howard and Kel and all I just received in the mail a copy of The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha by Bh Bodhi and Nyanaponika. This heading caught my eye in the chapter of the sixes: "Advantages of Contemplating Non-self". It reads: "When a monk sees six advantages, it should be enough for him to establish the perception of non-self in all things without exception. What six? 'I shall be aloof from all the world. Notions of 'I' will vanish in me. Notions of 'mine' will vanish in me. I shall be endowed with uncommon knowledge. I shall clearly understand causes and the phenomena arisen from causes." (VI, 104) The relevant footnote says: "Note that the perception of non-self is to be extended to all things (dhamma) without qualification, rather than merely to all formations or conditioned phenomena (sankhara) like the perceptions of impermanence and non-self." This footnote is not making full sense to me - perhaps the very last "non-self" should read "dukkha"? Can anybody help with the meaning of this, please? Best wishes Andrew T 47493 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi again Howard and Kel and all > > I just received in the mail a copy of The Numerical Discourses of the > Buddha by Bh Bodhi and Nyanaponika. This heading caught my eye in the > chapter of the sixes: "Advantages of Contemplating Non-self". It reads: > > "When a monk sees six advantages, it should be enough for him to > establish the perception of non-self in all things without exception. > What six? 'I shall be aloof from all the world. Notions of 'I' will > vanish in me. Notions of 'mine' will vanish in me. I shall be endowed > with uncommon knowledge. I shall clearly understand causes and the > phenomena arisen from causes." (VI, 104) > > The relevant footnote says: "Note that the perception of non-self is to > be extended to all things (dhamma) without qualification, rather than > merely to all formations or conditioned phenomena (sankhara) like the > perceptions of impermanence and non-self." > > This footnote is not making full sense to me - perhaps the very > last "non-self" should read "dukkha"? Can anybody help with the > meaning of this, please? > >_______ Dear Andrew, Yes, it should be dukkha (not non-self) for the last word. Robert 47494 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 7/10/05 11:43:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: The relevant footnote says: "Note that the perception of non-self is to be extended to all things (dhamma) without qualification, rather than merely to all formations or conditioned phenomena (sankhara) like the perceptions of impermanence and non-self." This footnote is not making full sense to me - perhaps the very last "non-self" should read "dukkha"? Can anybody help with the meaning of this, please? ============================ I agree with you. That must be a typo. The last 'non-self' must have supposed to have been 'dukkha'! (Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe sankhara anicca.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47495 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:27pm Subject: enjoying Sri Lanka nichiconn hi, dsg, Summarizing AN VI.13 -- These, monks, are six properties that are means of escape from: ill will, good will as an awareness-release; viciousness, compassion as an awareness-release; resentment, appreciation as an awareness-release; passion, equanimity as an awareness-release; all signs, the signless as an awareness-release; the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity, the uprooting of the conceit "I am". Someone asked what AN meant and listening to the Sri Lanka mp3's, I wrote/stole: There are 3 baskets of the Pali Canon / Tipitaka: Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidhamma. In the suttanta pitaka are 4 main collections or nikayas (N) [DN - Digha (long), MN - Majjhima (middle), SN - Samyutta (yoked) & AN - Anguttara (factored)] plus the voluminous Khuddhaka (minor) Nikaya wherein the Dhammapada and all sorts of good stuff --jatakas, Milinda & Netti, psalms, joyous sayings, stories other realms.... are found. All the baskets are cornucopic, yet empty, Grasshoppa. This peace is said to be from chapter 12 of the Parivara, the appendix to the Vinaya: "This is the purpose for conversation, this is the purpose for consultation, this is the purpose of apprenticeship, this is the purpose for lending ear: the liberation of the mind through non-clinging." I'm still reading the Visuddhimagga, which is from the Commentarial tradition. As a story, it takes a series of carriage rides to convey Buddha's answer to a deva one night. Just got Pe Maung Tin's translation and finally (after 2 yrs?) can say I've at least turned every page in Nanamoli's with an eye towards reading it along with rushing through the Dispeller & a few other mouthfuls of usually dry commentarial leaves from the baskets. While one does not walk the path, I'd say there is a carriage by summons for those so inclined, but what are 'those'? Everything is just the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, experienced through the six doorways. Awareness is aware of a reality, but do we know the characteristics of the realities the Buddhas say are to be known, the objects of satipatthana? Or which realities are to be developed or abandoned? Sure, lobha is to be eliminated and metta, which can be known thru speech, developed - still, thinking is mostly with lobha and dosa - clinging and aversion, yet who is developing? No self to catch on in all the learning, listening & developing, by degrees, by levels, intellectually and by awareness. It's panna that understands more and more deeply; satipatthana that leads to enlightenment and follows any object/aramanna naturally, without conceptualizations & the attendant proliferations, the papanca - o me, o my. There is no disturbance at all with awareness. Calm always accompanies kusala. Akusala arises even tho we try to avoid it, yet does understanding develop? Can it arise for anything, in the absense of that thing? Ignorance enslaves us - blind, armless miners in kunlin. Heedless, we do not listen when we hear, nor consider if perchance & happenstance we do. It's all conditioned. Dukkha, the real f word, and i'm with the camera guys, f-stop. Shutting out, running away, momentarily (however many lifetimes that might be) suppressing, are but wishing things were other than what has been conditioned to arise now if the effort isn't right. Abhidhamma clarifies our lives as moments of not self, but indifferent rupas and discrete consciousnesses of different jatis, ranges, functions in various conditional relationships. Not my ignorance, just the nama ignorance along with it's supporting conditions arising and falling; each thought moment succeeded by the next to carry the various accumulations. On and on unless and until the final cuti of the arahant. Do we see how much avijja we have? Only visible object can be seen, but what about the idea of seeing things, beings, selves? here a khanda, there a khandha & only paramattha dhammas appear, not conceptual wholes taken out of context and pieced together by more and less arrogant dreamers following unfounded faiths as long as there is not yet enough honestly understanding dhatu: everything is dhamma. I would add: all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, lie gathered in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned their chief. [AN X.15] pahana-kicca, qualities to be abandoned - 1) kamachanda: affection, desire, laxity, infatuation 2) byapada: ill will and hatred 3) thina-middha: discouragement, drowsiness, sloth 4) uddhacca-kukkucca: restlessness and anxiety 5) vicikiccha: doubt, uncertainty, indecision. Dispeller 1174: A bhikkhu who is estab'd in the discernment of formations thus, has sent down his roots into the Ten-Powered One's dispensation and has obtained a foothold. He is a Lesser Stream Enterer (cuula-sotapanna) of assured destiny. But on obtaining such climate, person, food and hearing of the Law as are suitable, in one sitting, in one supreme session he attains Arahatship by applying the 3 characteristics and comprehending the formations with succession of insight. This is the conclusion, as far as Arahatship, for the bhikkhu who does his laying to heart by way of elements. peace. 47496 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:16pm Subject: Re: accumulations: a refuse heep! nichiconn hi, colette, N: The eye does not see, it is the base of seeing consciousness. The eye is rupa, it does not know anything. it does not know:' I am eyebase'. Some cittas see, others have judgements, are attached, have aversion or react with wisdom. There is only one citta at a time. ---------- connie: citta and the accompanying cetasikas all regard/are occupied with the same, single, object. [jump] > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > since the begining of time/history. > ---------------------------------- N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. ------- > connie: kusala, wholesome, skilled, good, as you like, always has been, is and will be noninjurious, joyous in result bodily, verbal and mental conduct. i guess we might know or measure a person's kusala thru their posturings if we watched them long enough & knew right from wrong ourselves: generosity, virtue, renunciation, discernment, persistence, endurance, truth, determination, good will and equanimity. Well, I am just looking at "the four aspects of skilled determination - discernement, truth, relinquishment and calm - when studied carefully, cover all ten of the perfections" and wondering where I found it, so, butting out, connie 47497 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:16pm Subject: bowling nichiconn Hey, Lisa, Jon & Sarah sent me some crown jewels that should be in your bowl so there's something worth finding when the keys have gone missing. Dispeller 2019: The word-by-word commentary having been completed thus, these ten powers should now be understood to be set forth successively as follows because (1) in the first place the Tathaagata sees with the knowledge of the possible and the impossible the absence of obstruction by defilement which is the possibility (reason) for the attaining or the impossibility (non-reason) for the non-attaining of the destruction of the cankers by teachable beings; this is owing to seeing the possibility (thaana) for mundane right view and owing to seeing the absence of possibility for assured wrong view. (2) Then with the knowledge of kamma result he sees the absence in them of obstruction by kamma result; [402] this is owing to seeing a rebirth-linking with three root-causes. (3) With the knowledge of ways wheresoever going, he sees the absence of obstruction by kamma; this is owing to seeing the absence of kamma with immediate effect. **(4) With the knowledge of the numerous and varying elements, he sees the specific habit (temperament) of those who are thus free from obstructions for the purpose of teaching of the Law suitable [to their habit]; this is owing to seing the diversity of the elements.** (5) Then with the knowledge of different resolves, he sees their resolves; this is for the purpose of teaching the Law according to their disposition even if they have not accepted the means. (6) Then, in order to teach the Law according to the ability and capacity of those whose resolves have been seen in this way, with the knowledge of the disposition of the faculties, he sees the disposition of the faculties; this is owing to seeing the keen and dull state of faith, etc. (7) But owing to disposition of the facultites being fully understood thus, if they are far off then owing to mastery of the first jhaana, etc., he quickly goes to them by means of his distinction in miraculous power; and having gone, seeing (8) the state of their former existences with the knowledge of the recollection of former lives, and (9) the present distinction of consciousness with the knowledge of the penetration of others' minds to be reached owing to the power of the Divine Eye; (10) with the power of the knowledge of destruction of the cankers, he teaches the Law for the destruction of the cankers owing to being rid of delusion about the way that leads to the destruction of the cankers. Therefore it should be understood that these ten powers were referred to in this sequence. >> peace, connie 47498 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:13pm Subject: Patient is Tolerance ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Patient Tolerance is the Fifth Mental Perfection: The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. He who patiently protects himself, protects also others. He who patiently protects others, protects also himself. Not from speaking much is one called clever. The patient one, free from anger, free from fear, only such one is rightly called clever. Dhammapada 258 Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... Nibbana is the supreme state!!! So say all the Buddhas. Dhammapada 184 The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, who patiently endures abuse, flogging & even imprisonment, such one, armed with endurance, the great force of tolerance, such one, I call a Holy One. Dhammapada 399 One should follow those who are determined, tolerant, enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, clever, good-willed and Noble. One shall stick to them as the moon remains in it's regular orbit. Dhammapada 208 Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: Remain pervading them & all others with a friendly awareness imbued with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, & immeasurable! Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. Majjhima Nikaya 21 Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any irritation can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu, when it arises in him. What are the five? 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 2: Understanding can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 3: On-looking equanimity can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. 4: The forgetting and ignoring of an irritating person or state can be practiced.. 5: Ownership of Kamma in an irritating person can be reflected upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his actions, is born of his actions & only he is responsible for his actions be they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which irritation can be entirely removed in a friend just when it arises... Anguttara Nikaya V 161 Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any of those... Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind like water, then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. Rahula with water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any of that! Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, then contacts of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! Rahula, fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, space does not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished like open space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & frustration will neither dominate nor obsess your mind. Majjhima Nikaya 62 ___________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Happiness !!! <...> 47499 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Attachment - by Ajahn Brahm kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewT, > I was really generalising in a "daily life" kind of way. In terms of > absolute realities and mind-moments, I don't think I can honestly say > that I "see" anatta, just as I can't really say that I "directly know" > dhammas. I was using anatta and vipaka loosely too but perhaps I should be more careful. Don't worry, I know you were just talking about cinta- maya panna mostly. > I expect the times I was referring to (of *not* being 'in control'and > realising it) have much akusala and go beyond vipaka; they are times > seemingly dominated by dosa ... but maybe with a tiny bit of weak panna > too? This was exactly the scenario I was imagining when you talk about anatta's lion roar. When things are not going the way we want, we have dosa as you say and want things to change. Then we realize no matter how much we wish or try, we can't change it. So chalk it up to anatta or anicca whatever is one's favorite. I was asking if you had a similar anatta's lion roar when things are going really smoothly. In your previous post, you referred to a nice meditation seemingly in charge of your volition. I wonder if you taken such experience as opportunity to see the disadvantage of even the agreeable things. Or ask yourself, if the experience suddenly goes bad, what would my reaction be? Do you start meditating scared by playing not to lose instead of to win? - kel 47500 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) kelvin_lwin Hi Phil, > I thought afterwards that the following is a bit extreme - > implying that there is no kusala when we do conventionally wholesome > things, such as helping others, studying Dhamma etc. Indeed one of the dangers when taking anatta too "far". From what I've observed DSG people are sufficiently wise not to fall into the trap. So I just don't read it as radically as written and give people benefit of the doubt. For some reason, I have this wish that you would just spend like 30 minutes just listening to the Acharn Sujin's tapes. Perhaps I'm used to receiving dhamma when it's more foreground and not background. I just have this feeling it would be of help to your progress. - kel 47501 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:35am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 245 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (s) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Restlessness arises very often, but we do not notice it. It is one of the “five hindrances”(1) and as such it is mentioned as a pair with regret (kukkucca). Restlessness prevents the citta from applying itself to kusala, thus it is a hindrance. We often waste opportunities for kusala. Time and again we are thinking with akusala citta, for example, we think with worry of the tasks which lie ahead of us. However, even while we are thinking there is an opportunity for kusala, namely the development of right understanding. There are realities all the time which have different characteristics, and these can be known when there is nonforgetfulness of them. Also thinking is a reality with its own characteristic and this can be known when it appears. When there is mindfulness there is no restlessness. *** 1) Defilements are classified into different groups and one of these are the “hindrances”, which are the following: sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and regret, and doubt. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47502 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 10-07-2005 01:26 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > > Also, I was wondering if Nina could say some more on how breath is > consciousness produced. I can see how a change in posture is > consciousness produced and I can see how tranquility can produce > tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana, but I > don't see how, in general, breath is consciousness produced. ------- N: What we call breath are the rupas of solidity, heat and motion, tangible object to be experienced through the bodysense. We have learnt that rupas of the body can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. So long as there is citta there is breathing and we are alive. It is citta that conditions breathing. Even in higher stages of jhana where breathing temporarily stops, it indicates that breath is conditioned by citta. As you say above: < I can see how tranquility can produce tranquil breathing or the stopping of breathing in formless jhana..> If kamma would produce breath even in the higher jhanas it would not stop producing it. ------ L: Do bhavanga cittas produce breathing? What about dreamless sleep? -------- N: Yes. We keep on breathing. ---------- L: I would suppose that consciousness of breathing is kamma vipaka. Does > that mean that mindfulness of breathing, or any rupa, is a kamma > resultant consciousness but mindfulness of feeling or perception is not > kamma resultant? ------ N: These are not vipaakacittas. Mindfulness of breathing is kusala citta with sati sampajaññaa. Nina. 47503 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:22am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 435 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma There are 5 ruupavipaka cittas and they are the result of ruupa kusala kamma. As delineated in the previous post there are 3 level of proficiency of jhaana and this has especially effects at the time of rebirth. But at other time they just give rise to their corresponding ruupavipaaka cittas. 1. 1st jhaana ruupa kusala kamma a) hiina jhaana gives rise to rebirth at bramaparisajjaa bhuumi b) majjhima jhaana gives rise to rebirth at brahmapurohita bhuumi c) paniita jhaana gives rise to rebirth at mahaa-brahmaa bhuumi Hiina means 'inferior', majjhima means 'middle', paniita means 'superior'. 2. 2nd & 3rd jhaana ruupa kusala kamma Here 2nd and 3rd are combined. According to jhaananga or jhana factors there are 5 jhaana. But as vitakka and vicara almost always arise together sometimes jhaanas are counted as 4 ruupa jhaana that is when vitakka and vicaara are eliminated from jhaana 2nd jhaana arise (this is 3rd jhaana when 5 jhaana factors are considered). a) hiina jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'parittaabaa brahma bhuumi' b) majjhima jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'appamaanaabhaa bhuumi' c) paniita jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'aabhassaraa bhuumi' 3. 4th jhaana ruupa kusala kamma (3rd jhaana of 4-stage-jhaana) a)hiina jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'paritaasubha bhuumi' b)majjhima jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'appamaanaasubha bhuumi' c)paniita jhaana gives rise to rebirth at 'subhakinnhaa bhuumi' 4. 5th jhaana ruupa kusala kamma (4th jhaana of 4-stage-jhaana) This jhaana is unique and unlike lower jhaanas it is extremely calm. Because there is only ekaggataa or one-pointedness as jhaana factor and only upekkha vedana is there. This jhaana is well balanced and the most refined jhaana among ruupa jhaana. So there one a being attains 5th jhaana (4th jhaana) and if this jhaana arises at near dying then this kamma serves as patisandhi kamma and this kamma will give rise to rebirth at 'vehapphala brahma bhuumi'. This is universal. That is all those who attain 5th jhaana and if this jhaana arise as marana-asanna-javana or if this jhaana arises as the last moment mental impulsion then this serve as kamma and this immediately give rise to rebirth at vehapphala bhuumi. So there is no hiina, majjhima, and paniita in case of 5th jhaana. Again if this 5th jhaana is cultivated with dispassion on sanna or perception, 'because of the power of this 5th jhaana' sanna no more arises as soon as rebirth of that 5th jhaana is given rise. That is rebirth at asannasatta bhuumi. It is ruupa-patisandhi and there is no naama component in those beings in asannasatta bhuumi and they are called asannii or non-percipient beings. They do not have perception and so there is no citta as long as they are in that realm. All these are the results of corresponding ruupa jhaana kamma at patisandhi or rebirth. In the course of life these 5 ruupa jhaana give rise to corresponding ruupavipaka citta. These vipaaka cittas or resultant consciousness are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness and when the citta last arise they will be cuti citta or dying-consciousness. This dying-consciousness in brahma bhuumi is also ruupavipaaka cittas. These are 5 ruupa-kusala kamma and their effects at patisandhi or rebirth and their effects in the course of life (pavatti). In the next post aruupa kamma will be delineated. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47504 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:23am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 02 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 2. khandha There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. There are 3 contemplations on each khandha or aggregate. So there are 15 contemplations on khandhas. 1. rupakkhandha or aggregates of 'ruupa(eye,ear etc & form, sound etc) 2. vedanakkhandha or aggregate of feeling 3. sannakkhandha or aggregate of perception 4. sankhaarakkhandha or aggregate of formations 5. vinnaanakkhandha or aggregate of consciousness Like 'nivarana dhamma' or 'hindrances to path-knowledge' these all five khandhas or aggregates should be understood. Otherwise 'dhamma- nupassana' cannot be practised. 3 contemplations on khandhas are 1. this is such khandha 2. this is its origination 3. this is its dissolution 3 contemplations on each of 5 khandhas make 15 contemplations. Along with 25 contemplations on nivarana or hindrances there will bea total of 40 dhammanupassana so far. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47505 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Question On the Three Stages of a Citta htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > As I understood, citta only produces rupa at the first submoment, at its > arising moment. > See Visuddhimagga XX, 31, citta is weak at the moments of its presence and > its dissolution. > The patisandhi-citta does not produce rupas, only kamma does at that moment, > because the first citta in life is too weak to do so. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina and Howard [special attention], Thank you very much for your message. Actually I referred to vinnaana- aahaaraja ruupa. When the last citta arises there is no other aahaaraja ruupa or nutriment-born ruupa. But there does arise aahaaraja ruupa because of vinnaana-aahaara given by cuti citta. This ruupa has 51 submoments. It arises at 3rd submoment of cuti citta or at bhanga khana of cuti citta. So there are 50 submoments of aahaaraja ruupa in the corpse. What I am trying to convey is that the 3rd submoment does exist. This is the original question of Howard. Cittaja ruupa or consciousness-born ruupa arises as the last cittaja ruupa at 2nd submoment of cuti citta. That is at thiti khana or while cuti citta is present. The last submoment does not produce cittaja ruupa. As you said I will have to check whether cittaja ruupa are 'only produced' at the arising submoment or uppaada khana of consciousness. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: To Howard_These do exist arising moment, persisting moment, and vanishing moment. Aahaaraja ruupa is still produced till the last submoment of cuti citta. This is about bhanga khana or 3rd submoment. Regarding middle submoment or thiti khana utuja ruupa starts to arise at middle submoment of patisandhi citta. Regarding the 1st submoment or arising moment of citta, kammaja ruupa arise starting at 1st submoment of patisandhi citta and cittaja ruupa arise at 1st submoment of 1st bhavanga citta. 47506 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Why? > > > With unlimited Karuna, > > > Tep > > ================ > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > > > Thanks for your reply and suggestion. Could you please re-read my > > reply and the one you wrote that I replied? > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, When you do that you will see yourself. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47507 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: Where is the Path? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - Why? With unlimited Karuna, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Rob M knows how I read messages. You did not do my suggestion. You did not re-read mt message to you and your reply to my message. Here is a part of my message to you. I already said 'you would confuse again'. As I said you confused me and replied in your way. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ''Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been posted here. Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. 1. Did The Buddha exist? 2. Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? 3. Do Dhamma exist? 4. Did and do arahats exist? 5. Did I exist? 6. Do I exist? 7. Will I be there in the future? I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there in the screen for your mind. a) things on the screen 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) 3. gandhaarammana (smell) 4. rasaarammana (taste) 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) b) the screen watcher (your mind) 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) Do these exist? Did they exist? Will they exist? Do Tep exist? Did Tep exist? Will Tep exist? 1. Is ruupaarammana nicca or anicca? 2. Is sadda 7. Is cakkhuvinnaana nicca or anicca? 8. Is sota - - 12. Is manovinnaana cittas nicca or anicca? Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47508 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 436 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kamma according the realm, where they can give rise to rebirth. They are 1. kaama akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Kaama akusala kamma, kaama kusala kamma, and ruupa kusala kamma have been explained in the previous posts. Kaama = sensuous things like 1.'ruupa' or 'sight' or 'things to seen' or 'vanna' or 'colour' or 'light' 2.'sadda' or sound 3.'gandha' or smell 4.'rasa' or taste 5.'photthabba' or touch and 6. thoughts related to above 5 things. Akusala = unwholesome or non-profitable kamma = work, action, potentials kusala = wholesome or profitable Ruupa = Here 'ruupa' means 'ruupa jhaana' 'ruupa brahma' or things related to fine-material realms Aruupa = Here 'aruupa' means 'non-material There are 4 aruupa-kusala-kamma. There are 4 aruupa-kusala cittas. They are 1. aakaasananca-ayatana aruupakusala citta Aakaasa + Ananta + ayatana = aakaasananta Aakaasa = space Ananta = boundless, limitless, endless Aayatana= place to support, ground, base This is an aruupa jhaana object. This object is aakaasananta or boundless space and that space is the 'ground' for citta called 1st aruupa jhaana citta. So it is aayatana or ground or base and that aayatana is called aakaasananta ayatana or aakaasanancayatana. The citta who takes that aayatana called 'aakaasanancayatana' is called 'aakaasanancayatana aruupakusala citta'. The state of being that citta is called 1st aruupa jhaana or aakaasanancayatana aruupa jhaana. The object boundless space is derived from boundless pannatta of one of 9 kasina objects (akasa kasina is excluded as it is already space). 2. vinnaananancayatana aruupakusala citta Vinnaana + ananta + aayatana Vinaana = Here 'vinnaana' is refered to 'vinnaana' of 1st aruupa jhana or 'the consciousness' that take the object boundless space Ananta = boundless Aayatana= base, ground, home, house, place to dwell, supporting ground Vinnaana-ananta-ayatana = Vinnaanancayatana This ayatana called 'vinnaananancayatana' is the object of 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. 1st aruupa jhaana object is boundless space. Likewise when the thaana or base or grond is boundless then the thaanii or base-dweller or ground-taker or 1st aruupa jhaana is also boundless. When this boundless-consciousness of 1st aruupa jhaana is clearly seen, this seer is no one but 2nd aruupa jhaana citta. The citta is 2nd aruupa jhaana citta and the object is boundless- consciousness of 1st aruupa jhaana. So this 2nd aruupa jhaana is called 'vinnaanancayatana aruupa jhaana. The cittas in that 2nd aruupa jhaana is 2nd aruupa jhana citta or 2nd aruupakusala cittas. 3. akincinnayatana aruupakusala citta Akinci + ayatana = aakincinna-ayatana Aakinci = nothing, not a thing, nothingness Aayatana= base, ground, place to dwell, place to live, place to home 2nd aruupa jhaana object, that is vinnaanancayatana or 'the boundless- consciousness' is quite close to boundless-space and this again is close to boundless-panatta of 9 kasina and this again has much danger leading back to kaama or sensuous sphere. So the vinnaanancayata or boundless-consciousness, the object has to be dispassionated and it has to be dropped as object. In that case no other object has to be taken and instead the object is just 'nothing'. So this object is called 'nothingness' and when the 3rd aruupa jhaana arises citta takes 'nothingness' as its object. 4. neva-sanna-na-asanna-ayatana aruupakusala citta Actually the object of 3rd aruupa jhaana is nothing or nothingness. So it is very difficult to contemplate whether there is sanna or equally it is hard to say whether there is asanna or non-perception. Because as the object is not very clear and very subtle. When this 3rd aruupa jhaana citta is clearly seen there arise 4th aruupa jhaana citta. It is 4th aruupakusala citta. These 4 aruupakusala cittas when they arise they create aruupa kusala kamma. When beings develop these aruupa jhaana when near dying or if these aruupa jhaana arise as the last moment mental impulsion this give rise to patisandhi. a) results at patisandhi or rebirth 1. aakaasanancayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise to rebirth at 'aakaasaanancayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. 2. vinnaanaanancayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise rebirth at 'vinnaanaanancayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. 3. aakincinnayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise rebirth at 'aakincinnayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. 4. nevasanna-naasanna-ayatana aruupa kusala kamma This kamma gives rise rebirth at 'nevasanna-naasannaayatana aruupa brahma bhuumi or realm'. In the course of life when in aruupa brahma bhuumi or non-material realm these 4 aruupa kusala kamma give rise to their corresponding aruupavipaaka cittas as their effect. They are 1. akasanancayatana aruupavipaaka citta 2. vinnananancayatana aruupavipaka citta 3. akincinnayatana aruupavipaaka citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana aruupavipaaka citta These 4 cittas are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness of these 4 kinds of aruupa brahma deva or aruupa beings. When these cittas last arise they are called aruupa-cuti citta and this is also the result of aruupa kusala kamma. These are summary of kamma and its implications. We do not need to go beyond the leaves in The Buddha's hand. Kamma is a deep, wide, head- to-deal subject. But what we should deal with is to avoid akusala and to do kusala while we are searching for the truth by ourselves. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47509 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, You raised many good points in your post #47167. I think your series on anapanasati is very useful for airing different understandings of samatha, breath, meditation and so on. Thank you. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > That "thinking out loud" message(#47130) of yours contains several > issues that are not relevant to the presentation of Breathing Treatise > so far. ... S: I think that what is relevant will depend very much on how we view the teachings. Whatever I read -- whether it be the Breathing Treatise or any other sutta, the Vinaya or the Abhidhamma – I read it as being the Buddha’s detailed explanation of conditioned dhammas. If we try to select breath for concentration or awareness, I don’t believe it leads to detachment or any understanding of dhammas as as anatta. .... >Tep:...Why does the anatta aspect of sati or any > dhamma become an issue at this point so early in the Anapanasati > bhavana? .... S: Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or vipassana or of jhana as a basis for vipassana, still all dhammas arising are anatta. When we have the idea that there can be any development of calm or wholesome concentration by means of a special focus, rather than by an understanding of the clear distinction between wholesome and unwholesome cittas at this moment, I think it’s wrong. Any wholesome cittas are calm, but usually they lasts for such a short time that we don’t notice them. However, wisdom can determine which objects condition more kusala (wholesome states), such as when there is metta or reflection on death, the Buddha’s virtues or breath for some and samatha can begin to develop if there are conditions for it. Through such understanding, there can be conditions for more calm in a day, but not by focusing or a special trying. We can see that such moments of wholesome wise reflection are very different from most the time when we think about people in an unwholesome way, for example. Not everyone is going to attain upacara, let alone appana samadhi and the question is whether it matters at all. There were many people in the Buddha’s time who attained jhanas but who never became enlightened. They could attain high jhanas but still not know anything about namas and rupas and not be any closer to finding release from samsara. Look at Devadatta, for example. I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don’t believe this is indicated in the text? ..... > Tep: That's right, what appears "right now" is the breaths and the > attention (or sati) placed at the front upatthapetva>. > > "While breathing in long, he knows 'I am breathing in long', while > breathing out long, he knows 'I am breathing out long'..." ... S: Is this what appears right now as we speak? Or is it thinking about what we read in the texts with an effort to have it appear? .... > This is real meditation, samatha-vipassana with sati-sampajanna and > atapi, based on the object of meditation -- not a thinking meditation to > find answer to everything. > --------------------------------------- .... S: I believe the Buddha explained the truth of all dhammas. When reality appears, there’s no ‘in or out breaths’. This is a concept, not the reality of a special rupa, just conditioned by citta, which is breath. This could be discerned by the Buddha and some key disciples. As soon as the group of rupas which make up breath arises, it falls away immediately. It’s quite different from what we are used to thinking of as in or out breaths lasting for a few seconds, I believe. Yes, it has to be the path of non-attachment. Who knows what will arise next, depending on our different accumulations? Satipatthana is about becoming used to different dhammas in a day. When there’s understanding of namas and rupas, there is calm too. When the 8fold path is being developed, there is samatha & vipassana being developed already. Adhicitta (higher concentration) is the development of calm and concentration of the 8fold path, not of jhana. When there’s understanding of the impermanence of all dhammas, there’s less and less attachment to what is conditioned now. Any dhamma is impermanent and anatta. This is why, whatever we read, it always ends with an emphasis on the 4 Noble Truths and the understanding of namas and rupas. All the teachings are about decreasing attachment. Even if someone has attained jhana beforehand, it doesn’t mean it will be used as basis for insight or enlightenment. In the end, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. So, why delay the development of satipatthana by trying to calm the mind first? ... > Sarah: As the sutta said, `any kind of form> whatsoever....feeling etc, whether past, present or future......internal> or external...fair or foul...high or low...far or near.....should be> seen> & understood as it really is......etc' > Tep: That comes from Anattalakkhana sutta. I thought you were > discussing Anapanasati meditation. ... S: I believe we can understand what is meant by ‘anapanasati meditation’ better if we read it in the light of the teachings as a whole, especially the teachings on anatta. Vism X1X, 26 ‘Correctknowledge and right seeing and overcoming doubt – are those things different in meaning and different in the letter or are they one in meaning and only the letter is different? Correct knowledge and right seeing and overcoming of doubt – these things are one in meaning and only the letter is different’ (Ps ii, 62f) ‘When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas’ Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a ‘lesser stream-enterer’. ‘So would a bhikkhu overcome His doubts, then ever minfully Let him discern conditions both Of mind and matter [nama and rupa] thoroughly.” .... Metta, Sarah p.s I'm going to try to respond to posts I've set aside to date -- others will likely have to wait til I return from my trip as I'm rather behind. ======== 47510 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > ..... > ______ Dear Sarah, All the 80 leading disciples were jhana-labhi. But some of them attained nibbana and gained mastery of jhana almost simultaneously (because of accumlations from past lives). Sariputta was fanning the Buddha and listening to a Dhamma talk when he became arahant- but he was so skilled in Jhana that he was entering and leaving jhana even while listening. He was chief in wisdom. Robertk 47511 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha on Noble Friendship ... !!! sarahprocter... Hi Tep,(Ven Samahita, Joop, Herman & all) I liked everything you wrote to me in this thread very much (#47343) and the extra quotes you gave. I've had to trim most to set a good example:). --- Tep Sastri wrote: > "Monks, for one whose awareness-release through good will is > cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a > basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- > undertaken, eleven benefits can be expected. Which eleven? > "One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear > to human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. > Neither fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One's mind gains > concentration quickly. One's complexion is bright. One dies > unconfused and -- if penetrating no higher -- is headed for the Brahma > worlds." [AN XI.16] ... S: Yes, I love these reminders and I think we can all experience the benefits of metta without expecting or wishing for them. ... Ven Samahita also quoted from the Lovingkindness Discourse in Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings). This is interesting because in the last stanza and commentary to it, we read (quoting from PTS translation now): .... "And now, since lovingkindness is near to [wrong] view of self because it has creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following stanza: "But he that traffics not with views Is virtuous with perfected seeing Till purged of greed for sense-desires He will surely come no more to any womb." "He did this as a preventative against [their straying into] the thicket of [speculative] views (see Mi 8) by showing those bhikkhus how the Noble Plane is reached through making that same loving-kindness jhana the basis for insight. "Its meaning is this. After emerging from the abiding in lovingkindness jhana, which was specified (detailed) thus ' This is Divine Abiding here, they say', [he discerns] the [non-material-form] ideas there [in that jhana] consisting in thinking and exploring and the rest [S: i.e jhana factors][which he defines as 'name'.][S: namas]Then, following on the defining, etc, of these [jhana factors as 'name'], he discerns the ideas of [material] form there, [which he defines as 'form'.][S: rupas] "By means of this delimitation of name-and-form 'he traffics not with views (di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma), [avoiding that by discerning] in the way stated thus 'A heap of mere determinations; No creature can be found herein' (S i 135), till he eventually becomes virtuous (siilavaa) with the kind of virtue that is supramundane since he is now perfected (sampanno) in the right view belonging to the Path of Stream Entry, which is called seeing (dassanena), and which is associated with that supramundane virtue" Later in the conclusion... "There the bhikkhus maintained lovingkindness in being, making that the basis, they established insight [into the three general characteristics of impermanence, suffering and not-self,] till all of them reached Arahantship...." .... Metta, Sarah p.s. > The ability ro "gain concentration quickly" is , I think, the reason for > perfecting lovingkindness meditation before attempting the > kayanupassana satipatthana as stated in the sutta (that I discussed > recently with Jon). ... S: I think it's not just a matter of gaining concentration, but of understanding and 'skill in good' (atthakusalena). Lots more to discuss here...perhaps we can pick it up on my return. The commentary is very rich and stresses that the bhikkhus in question were so skilled. ====================== 47512 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. sarahprocter... Hi RobertK, Good to see your input! --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the > majority of > > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > > ..... > > ______ > Dear Sarah, > All the 80 leading disciples were jhana-labhi. ... S: Yes, the leading disciples, but not the majority who became enlightened, I believe. ... >But some of them > attained nibbana and gained mastery of jhana almost simultaneously > (because of accumlations from past lives). .... S: Yes and some had attained jhanas previously but they weren't necessarily used as basis for enlightenment, I believe. ... > Sariputta was fanning the Buddha and listening to a Dhamma talk when > he became arahant- but he was so skilled in Jhana that he was entering > and leaving jhana even while listening. He was chief in wisdom. ... S: I agree with this, but somewhere on the Sri Lanka tapes K.Sujin says it's not clear anywhere in the texts that jhana was used as a basis for his enlightenment. I took her to be referring to when he first became enlightened (as a sotapanna) and that was what I was alluding to. Thx for helping me to clarify this. I'll be glad if you, Tep or anyone else has anything else to add. Metta, Sarah p.s the painful bodily feeling we associate with certain experiences of visible objects and sounds on the eyes and ears are, I believe, body-door experiences of tangible objects in between the eye and ear door processes. We discussed this point in India last year(Banares tape). ======== 47513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 437 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We have explored deeply in the forest of citta, cetasika, ruupa, nibbana. Apart from these 4 dhamma there is no other ultimate reality. This means that there are ultimate realities and they are citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbana. If there is 'anything' that 'anything' has to be citta or cetasika or ruupa or nibbana. This is always true. Everything that exists in any form is one of these when ultimately seen. When it is said that 'there is no I, no me, no mine' some may a bit confused. Nothing to be confused. Because there is no 'I' or 'me' or 'my' or 'mine' in ultimate sense. But if this is said one may be pondering who is writing these scripts. No one is writing. Is this possible? When Dhamma is really seen and perceived wisely there is no reason to arise such ignorant question. Did The Buddha exist? If no, why are these Dhamma there in tipitaka and who preached these tipitaka? To understand these argumentations and their implication with regard to realities one has to consider on individual matter. Ultimate things are always ultimate things. But these ultimate things arise individually. Citta arises individually. Cetasika arises individually. And ruupa arises individually. Nibbana exists individually. Nibbana does not arise and so nibbana does not fall away. There are dhamma that arise at the same time. Sometime these dhamma are illusionally interpreted as someone, something and so on. Example there are co-arising khandhas like 1. ruupa-kkhandha or material aggregate 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling aggregate 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception aggregate 4. sankhaara-kkhandha or formation aggregate 5. vinnaana-kkhandha or consciousness aggregate These co-arising individual dhamma are illusionally interpreted as human, deva, brahma, man, woman, cat, dog, snake etc etc. In ultimate sense there is no such thing as 'human' 'deva' 'brahma' 'man' 'woman' etc etc. For the reason of clear grasping the idea of individuality 'beings' are classified into 12 individual beings and these individuals are also known as puggala. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47514 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:50am Subject: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi all, There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate hearing where there was none. Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? Kind Regards Herman 47515 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. rjkjp1 In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > wrote: > > > > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the > > majority of > > > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > > > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > > > ..... > > > ______ > > Dear Sarah, > > All the 80 leading disciples were jhana-labhi. > ... > S: Yes, the leading disciples, but not the majority who became > enlightened, I believe. ____________ Dear Sarah, I must have written at least 10 times on this forum about how the great majority of disciples were sukkha-vipassana, so not sure why you are repeating this? ------------------------------- > ... > >But some of them > > attained nibbana and gained mastery of jhana almost simultaneously > > (because of accumlations from past lives). > .... > S: Yes and some had attained jhanas previously but they weren't > necessarily used as basis for enlightenment, I believe. _____________ You mean that some of them were sukkha-vipassaka? I don't think so. _____________________ > .. > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s the painful bodily feeling we associate with certain experiences of > visible objects and sounds on the eyes and ears are, I believe, body-door > experiences of tangible objects in between the eye and ear door processes. > We discussed this point in India last year(Banares tape). _________________- I am bit lost, why are you bringing this up? __________ RobertK 47516 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi all, > > There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the > gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not > hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate > hearing where there was none. > > Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Herman, The answer is very clearly no. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47517 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Expanding the list of ayatanas? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/11/05 6:50:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi all, There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate hearing where there was none. Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? Kind Regards Herman ====================== As you know, my take on the Dhamma is phenomenological or experiential. I take "ear base" to refer not to a conventional object "out in the world," but rather to what I call a "locational rupa". This perspective, though not the term 'locational rupa', was suggested to me a while ago by Robert Kirkpatrick, and I immediately adopted it the moment I heard it. We associate hearing with a subjective physical location. Likewise for seeing. We associate body-sense or touch with subjective locations all over and within the conventional body. As I view it, the sense doors (perhaps other than mind door) are subjective locations that we associate with the corresponding sensing. I view such physical locations as rupas. So, as regards ear door, in particular, I don't identify it with a cochlear implant or with the physical ears or any part of them, but with a locational rupa. I'm not advocating that you or anyone else adopt ths same perspective. I'm just pointing out that it is an alternative way to think about the sense doors. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47518 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) ashkenn2k Hi Nina relax :-). it is latency at work, we cant control them since they are not self and they arise as they like and cease as they like, no point thinking over our latency. as you always said, right understanding is the only way to go cheers Ken O 47519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo nilovg Hi Colette, op 09-07-2005 17:51 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > > "We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, it often seems > to be the goal of our life. However, pleasant feeling cannot last and > when it is gone we are sad" ------ N: This is a reminder for me too. I really like pleasant feeling. This attachment causes sorrow. -------- > C: Before I finish this post I'd like to ask Nina: > > Your words "Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many > defilements" > > My notes: "Why can't we change or upgrade the material of the > Abhidhamma since they wrote this from a very shamanistic point of > view?" --------- N: I think the Abhidhamma is very realistic. As you continue, you may come to the conclusion that you can verify it in your life. It is really sober and simple. It is worth while to be openminded to it and try to understand it. I found it helpful in the beginnign to forget about all the philosophical stuff I had studied before and just listen. Is it difficult to listen? Nina 47520 From: nina Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:56am Subject: Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing nilovg Hi Tep, Larry and all, Here is a summary of parts of the commentaries. ----------- The second tetrad pertains to the contemplation of feeling. As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, saññaa. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: The Commentary to the Satipatthana sutta states that contemplating feelings in the feelings should be seen in the same way as contemplating the body in the body: thus, in order to limit the object and ³sifting it out². We read: *** Commentary to the Path of Discrimination: Co: How is the arising of feeling recognized [known]? The Co explains that the arising and cessation of feeling is understood according to the general (samañña) characteristic. He understands the arising, its presence and its falling away, its disappearance, its emptiness. And it is the same with saññaa, and vitakka, thinking. N: In the text we read about the arising and cessation according to the D.O. Thus, this has to be understood in two ways: as to the moments of arising and falling away and as to the conditions as explained in the D.O. The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them. Pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling appear but indifferent feeling is harder to know. But also indifferent feeling appears to the bhikkhu. When feeling is considered as impermanent, etc. it is together with vipassana, according to the Co. Saññaa, in this context, is together with vipassana, it gets hold of the general characteristics. Thinking is an essential factor for vipassana. The Co quotes what the Buddha said to Visakha: sammaa-ditthi, right view, is together with right thinking as paññaa-khandha. N: Here the word khandha has a different meaning. The eightfold Path is divided in three groups: siila, concentration and wisdom. Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path. The Co. explains that vipassana has vitakka as assistant: vitakka hits the object so that pañña can realize it as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Without vitakka paññaa would not be able to do this. ***** Nina. 47521 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 438 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala These seem difficult to remember. 1. arahats 2. initial arahats 3. anagams 4. initial anagams 5. sakadagams 6. initial sakadagams 7. sotapams 8. initial sotapams 9. triple-rooted non-ariya individuals 10.double-rooted non-ariya individuals 11.happy-destination rootless individuals 12.unhappy-destination rootless individuals 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala arahatta = 'eradicated' phala = fruit thaana = place puggala = individual There is an individual and that individual is seen at the place called fruit of radication of all kilesas or defilements. This means there is 'no arahat' as an ultimate reality. But individual dhamma is illusionally seen as individual. And here individually seen as a 'being' or a person who is arahat. But actually in ultimate sense there is no being, no person, no arahat. What is seen as 'arahat' or here 'arahatta phalatthaana puggala' is arahatta phala citta. This citta is a reality. It is the result of arahatta magga citta. There have been many many conditions for arahatta magga citta to arise. Arahatta phala citta does not arise alone even though it arises in its individual. When it arise there always are its associated cetasikas and its home-base ruupa. Finally they (these dhamma) are just panca-kkhandhas or 5 aggregates. So arahatta phalatthaana puggala is 'a puggala' or 'an individual' who is seen at the place or thaana or 'arahatta phala citta'. The same applies to all other individuals. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment ,latent tendencies. nilovg Hi Ken O, nice to hear from you. I hear your voice often these days on tape. It is good to know that there are latent tendencies, it helps us to understand conditions and the nature of anatta. Nina. op 11-07-2005 16:54 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@...: relax :-). it is latency at work, we cant control them since they > are not self and they arise as they like and cease as they like, no > point thinking over our latency. as you always said, right > understanding is the only way to go 47523 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: Where is the Path?/ Already Answered! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I am sorry to disappoint you. Your questions were already answered in my last post. Maybe it is now your turn to reread that post and discover my intended answers by yourself. > Htoo: I think, instead of speculation just try to see what is right there > in the screen for your mind. > > a) things on the screen > > 1. ruupaarammana (form, shape,colour, light) > 2. saddaarammana (sound, voice) > 3. gandhaarammana (smell) > 4. rasaarammana (taste) > 5. photthabbaarammana (touches) > 6. dhammaarammana (mind-objects) > > b) the screen watcher (your mind) > > 1. cakkhuvinnaana citta ( eye-consciousness) > 2. sotavinnaana citta (ear-consciousness) > 3. ghaanavinnaana citta (nose-consciousness) > 4. jivhaavinnaana citta (tongue-consciousness) > 5. kaayavinnaana citta (body-consciousness) > 6. manovinnaana cittas (mind-consciousness) > > Do these exist? Did they exist? Will they exist? > Do Tep exist? Did Tep exist? Will Tep exist? > > 1. Is ruupaarammana nicca or anicca? > 2. Is sadda > > 7. Is cakkhuvinnaana nicca or anicca? > 8. Is sota > - > - > 12. Is manovinnaana cittas nicca or anicca? > > Where is Tep? Where was Tep? Where will Tep be? > Did Htoo exist? Does Htoo exist? Will Htoo exist? > > Repeated reflection on dhamma will help you a lot. > With unlimited Karuna, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Dear Tep, > > Rob M knows how I read messages. You did not do my suggestion. You did not re-read mt message to you and your reply to my message. > > Here is a part of my message to you. I already said 'you would > confuse again'. As I said you confused me and replied in your way. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ''Paramattha dhamma are always paramattha dhamma. If I say these Pali word in this manner many will deny this. > > And individual is individual. But that is not a self. I have written > on 12 different individuals in Dhamma Thread but they have not been > posted here. > > Example there was an individual called Tep. But there is no Tep, no > indivual from the start. If I say this you would confuse again. > > 1. Did The Buddha exist? > 2. Did The Buddha preach Dhamma? > 3. Do Dhamma exist? > 4. Did and do arahats exist? > 5. Did I exist? > 6. Do I exist? > 7. Will I be there in the future? > (snipped) > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47524 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:24pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Howard and Htoo, > Hi all, > > There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the > gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not > hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate > hearing where there was none. > > Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ====================== > As you know, my take on the Dhamma is phenomenological or experiential. I > take "ear base" to refer not to a conventional object "out in the world," but > rather to what I call a "locational rupa". This perspective, though not the > term 'locational rupa', was suggested to me a while ago by Robert Kirkpatrick, > and I immediately adopted it the moment I heard it. > We associate hearing with a subjective physical location. Likewise for > seeing. We associate body-sense or touch with subjective locations all over and > within the conventional body. As I view it, the sense doors (perhaps other > than mind door) are subjective locations that we associate with the corresponding > sensing. I view such physical locations as rupas. > So, as regards ear door, in particular, I don't identify it with a > cochlear implant or with the physical ears or any part of them, but with a > locational rupa. > I'm not advocating that you or anyone else adopt ths same perspective. > I'm just pointing out that it is an alternative way to think about the sense > doors. > === I, of course, accept both your takes on this matter, and I certainly have no desire to have you see things another way. But I think that some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions are remarkably anatomical. Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback Kind Regards Herman 47525 From: quidam Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] ksheri3 Good Morning Tep, --- colette wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep > Sastri" > wrote: > > Charles D: > > I would change the first two sentences to say, "We > must be careful > not > to fall into the trap of stretching both views in > order to achieve > the stated > objective." colette: I love how he created that statement since I had just watched a show on "black holes", ect. and they said that when a person gets placed above the "singularity" they are going directly in. Take it from the point of "falling" lets be arbitrary and give the victim of the fall the luxury of falling as a pussy cat falls in order to give them the ability to land on their feet. It just so happens that as the person decends their feet are going to descend faster than their head since the gravitational pull of the singularity is greater on the feet, being closer, than the head. cool huh? ;)) --------------- > > > > Isn't it true that most people who have self-views > love to stretch > the > teachings, or anything else including the laws, "in > order to achieve > the > stated objective"? They all have fun doing that > (especially when they > win). colette: exactly Tep, which is why I'm so consumed with the eternal question "what is truth" since it is all truth yet your version of the truth is from your pair of shoes, POV, while my version is from my pair of shoes, POV, so we have to find a happy medium ground or we get into the battle of the ego by gratifying the ego which is to say that if your version of truth is correct then mine is incorrect or wrong. Ah, we can't have that in today's society of competition now can we? Thus, the ego is consumed with being correct and if it is not correct then it is like a rat caught in a trap, "It's a rat trap baby" The Boom Town Rats. ================================================== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charle s > DaCosta" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I > see the value in > trying to > demonstrate the similarities > > between 2 different teachings. colette: well, just because you can't see any value does that mean that there is no value i.e. the perception of an aircraft by a radar and the detection of the Stealth aircraft by the same radar. If we're looking for similarities then we're using something like a "split-screen" in our comparison. I think that the inconsistancies we may find are created by cultural values. There's that word again, in the American society the value structure is rather money orientated isn't it? Values in this culture are so pliable and dough-like cetasikas. ---------------------- It is likely to > lead to a > stretching of both > in order to achieve the stated objective. It might > be better to > study each > for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-))." colette: which is what I always do. "Yes I'm on my way. I don't know where I'm goin'. I'm on my way" Paul Simon. Here is where I have so much trouble with individuals trying to tell me what is and is not consciousness. AS IF THEY KNOW! I may not know where I'm goin' but at least I can maintain consciousness so as to find my way back, huh? ;-)) ------------------ toodles, colette 47526 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > > op 08-07-2005 16:53 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > > colette: true but since my brain cells are not programmed the same as > > your brain cells .. > ______ > N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different from the > Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating understanding and > detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. colette: UNTRUE, I think that if we can find ways to rationalize our behavior and the behavior of others then it should be more than consoling and benefitial to society and humanity if we can find links, similarities, the TRUTH, of this mystical search. If we are stuck with either science or theology to explain our existance as well as the past and future then you've already achieved SHUNYATAT, SUNYATA, EMPTINESS, nothing, no meanings whatsoever. Thru meditation and the trance state yogis, arahants, buddhas, etc. have been able to achieve great things although you may choose to deny the ability of some people to walk on burning coals or place their fists thru solid objects or place a dagger thru the walls of his cave, etc. That is fine for a micro-manager that is consumed with controling everything in this life. I on the other hand tend to believe the mystical is a practicle coarse of study and vaible coarse as well. -------------- > ---------- > > colette: > > You can't say that the citta and cetasika fall away and then > > say that they are carried to the next citta. > ------ > N: No. I did not mean that. The inclinations, tendencies, memories are > carried on from moment to moment. But there is constant change. New > accumulations are added, and there can also be a wearing away of bad > tendencies. > You can verify in your life that you remember, that you learn. There must be > conditions for that. > ------- > C:Since I think I made my > > point rather clear by using the wagon wheel marks in the earth > > --------------------- > N: This is about material phenomena, and different from what is mental. Your > simile suggests something that lasts. colette: do you mean to assert that you have no brain and that by taking an algerbra 1 class learning how to represent numbers by using letters then you be no better off in the study of physics? Don't you see trace elements of the flash after the chinese invention of fireworks goes off in the sky above your head like a light bulb? The flash is over yet there's trace? It can't be according to your assumptions. The physical brain maintains the trace in the synapses, the electrical impulses of the brain, and I suppose you're going to tell me that there is no such thing as Beta, Alpha, Theta, and Delta brain waves and that they do not issue an electromagnetic field, or aura around the body? sorry gotta go I hope to be back latter to finish this post Nina was kind enough to offer me. toodles, colette > --------- > > colette: . the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta > is of no value to > > the knowledge once it has been learned. > > --------------------- > N: Citta and cetasikas are arising and falling away together. We could not > say: knowledge is kept in the cetasika. Knowledge is accumulated in the > citta. > ------- <...> 47527 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! pt. 2 ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > > colette: . the accumulated knowledge is kept in the cetasika where the citta > is of no value to > > the knowledge once it has been learned. > > --------------------- > N: Citta and cetasikas are arising and falling away together. We could not > say: knowledge is kept in the cetasika. Knowledge is accumulated in the> citta. colette: then why is it so universally excepted and the myth purpetuated by using the thoughts of the aristocratic noble as being the citta and his, notice how I used the male gender as the vehicle for the negativity which will pass thru this, servants as the cetasika? It seems as though you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want it a certain way that has benefited you in the past but when confronted by the present, here & now, you are not going to allow for any deviation from the coarse that has brought you such abilities What was that you were saying about something that lasts in reference to my use of the terminology, analogy, metaphor, for the wagon wheel ruts in the earth marking the path, the way, being like the synapses of the brain marking the path, the way, and how it relates so nicely here since I've gone and said that your path of the past really does last and you said your citta and cetasika don't last? -------------------- > ------- > > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > > since the begining of time/history. > > ---------------------------------- > N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for > yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The > Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results > accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or > later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. > ------- > colette: Oh how could I be so stupid and walk into your maze of your ignorance. Pardon me while I walk out by means of walking thru your walls! I love it: chapter 2 Feeling (vedana), p.9 "On a account of a pleasant object there is often lobha-mula-citta which can be accompanied by somanassa or upekkha, and on account of an unpleasant object there is often dosa-mula-citta which is accompanied by dmanassa..." My notes state: "The Sangaha defines a certain state of 'determining consciousness' the classification of the citta as either kusala or akusala" Which leads me to the reality that you seem to be of the meglamaniac type of personality where the power to control others is more important than the power to control yourself. ;-)) ---------------------- gots ta go, I noticed another post to me in the msg. index. toodles, colette 47528 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo ksheri3 Good Morning again Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Colette, > op 09-07-2005 17:51 schreef colette op ksheri3@y...: > > > > "We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, it often seems > > to be the goal of our life. However, pleasant feeling cannot last and > > when it is gone we are sad" > ------ > N: This is a reminder for me too. I really like pleasant feeling. This > attachment causes sorrow. colette: Rupa rears it's ugly head huh? Don't you see your clinging, attachment, to things as they were? <....> You began everything by placing value in rupa and denying nama, now you see that rupa may just be a manifestation of nama but nama contradicts rupa therefore you cling to the path that brought you peace and comfort and wealth and .... > -------- > > > C: Before I finish this post I'd like to ask Nina: > > > > Your words "Through the Abhidhamma we can come to know our many > > defilements" > > > > My notes: "Why can't we change or upgrade the material of the > > Abhidhamma since they wrote this from a very shamanistic point of > > view?" > --------- > N: I think the Abhidhamma is very realistic. As you continue, you may come > to the conclusion that you can verify it in your life. colette: what are you talking about. I finished it the second I began reading the first page since it directly applied to myself immediately. "you can verify it in your life." why should I use it to verify myself when I already know that I exist? I can verify it, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. ----------------------- It is really sober and simple. It is worth while to be openminded to it and try to understand > it. <...> > I found it helpful in the beginnign to forget about all the philosophical > stuff I had studied before and just listen. colette: heavens no! I began my study of the esoteric yrs before I had any knowledge of philosophy etc. I entered it with a certainty of my Self and what I'd been thru in this death. I've found application after application that verifiably works in the esoteric and most recently have found philosphy. Damn, for over 2 decades I was working from the premise that nobody saw the relationship between Marx & Engles, the Soviets and organized religion, which is why it took me at least 3 days to walk a few blocks to the Soviet Embassy in Washington D.C. in 1982, but this philospher named Heideger, I think, I've got the printout at home if I dig, had come up with the same realization that I did thus making it impossiple for me to have done what I did on my own since others have realized these things long before me. Which goes into my NATURAL ABILITY for the esoteric and not the man-made, man-manufactured, version of ability. I always figured my dad was sooooooo pissed at me for dying in 1978 and coming back to life is that at that moment he could no longer take credit for doing what I did. He had absolutely no tangent involved in my exploit(s) and therefor he could not lay claim to my profits or losses he was outside of the condition of my life and that really pissed him off since my dad was the utmost of control freaks. I think he got that from McDonalds or at least from Wheaton and DuPage county. Now that I've got all this knowledge of philosophers and my knowledge of the esoteric is constantly growing, I can find overlapping, details using a split-screen type of comparison. what a Mind Game huh? Notice how the concept Mind Game is the oposite of Game Mind where GM does not equal MG. :-o LOL ---------------------- Is it difficult to listen? colette: that's the only thing the middle-class will allow me to do since they are so consumed with dictating.<...>Boy are they in for a rude awakening huh? toodles, colette 47529 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Sarah, > ... > S: I think that what is relevant will depend very much on how we view the > teachings. == I think this is very worthwhile to point out again and again. It is all too easy to refer to a text here and a text there and end up saying that "the teachings say......", as if all of the teachings say that. Personally, I do not think it is possible to have ONE synoptic view of the Canon, its commentaries and sub-commentaries. Or conversely, I do not think that these works represent ONE view. If we lean one way in our interpretations, we can only do so by ignoring those things that lean in other directions. == Whatever I read -- whether it be the Breathing Treatise or any > other sutta, the Vinaya or the Abhidhamma – I read it as being the > Buddha's detailed explanation of conditioned dhammas. If we try to select > breath for concentration or awareness, I don't believe it leads to > detachment or any understanding of dhammas as as anatta. == All day long, people try to do things. All day long, people are striving , seeking to achieve goals. All day long, people are unaware that it is not "them" that is doing the trying, but that the trying is what is happening to them. Of course, any thought of "shoulding" or "should not" is also a conditioned phenomenon. Seeking out situations and avoiding situations is what is happening, there is noone that is making that happen . You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For anyone engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a car at a 100kmh with other cars all round should be positively avoided. And it is. Where there is any sense of responsibility towards others, sati will not arise, so as to not bump into others, run into others, and so forth. Sure enough, it is the mental seclusion that is the key, but moral constraints in group situations prevent mental seclusion from arising. Kind Regards Herman 47530 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina { Larry, Sarah, Howard, and all} - Thank you very much for summarizing some relevant issues from the commentaries. I think the commentary to the Path of Discrimination with regard to "thinking" is a little confusing. N: Thinking is an essential factor for vipassana. The Co quotes what the Buddha said to Visakha: sammaa-ditthi, right view, is together with right thinking as pannaa-khandha. >Here the word khandha has a different meaning. The eightfold Path is >divided in three groups: siila, concentration and wisdom. Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Tep: So, right thinking is another name of samma-sankappa, and right view(samma-ditthi) + right thinking = panna-khandha. N: The Co. explains that vipassana has vitakka as assistant: > vitakka hits the object so that panna can realize it as impermanent, >dukkha, anattaa. Without vitakka pannaa would not be able to do this. Tep: Is this 'vitakka' the jhana factor of the 1st jhana? If it is, then it implies that panna-khandha (for penetrating the path) is supported (at least) by the 1st jhana. Another implication is that samma-sankappa is exactly the same as 'vitakka' as a jhana factor, or "thinking" as "an essential factor of vipassana" is not the ordinary thinking we do while reading or listening. Best wishes, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, Larry and all, > Here is a summary of parts of the commentaries. > ----------- (snipped) > *** > Commentary to the Path of Discrimination: > > Co: How is the arising of feeling recognized [known]? > > The Co explains that the arising and cessation of feeling is understood according to the general (samañña) characteristic. He understands the arising, its presence and its falling away, its disappearance, its emptiness. And it is the same with saññaa, and vitakka, thinking. > N: In the text we read about the arising and cessation according to the D.O. Thus, this has to be understood in two ways: as to the moments of arising and falling away and as to the conditions as explained in the D.O. The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them. Pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling appear but indifferent feeling is harder to know. But also indifferent feeling appears to the bhikkhu. > When feeling is considered as impermanent, etc. it is together with > vipassana, according to the Co. > Saññaa, in this context, is together with vipassana, it gets hold of the > general characteristics. (snipped) . > ***** > Nina. 47531 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, The scenario you presented makes no sense to me given how I understand sati. What is your definition? Mental seclusion of the degree you're referring to seems to be more of absorption concentration as opposed to sati. Some might even say moral constraints are not possible without sati. - kel > You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any > situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For anyone > engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close > proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a > car at a 100kmh with other cars all round should be positively > avoided. And it is. Where there is any sense of responsibility towards > others, sati will not arise, so as to not bump into others, run into > others, and so forth. Sure enough, it is the mental seclusion that is > the key, but moral constraints in group situations prevent mental > seclusion from arising. 47532 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/11/05 6:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard and Htoo, > Hi all, > > There are tens of thousands of people world-wide who have received the > gift of hearing by way of cochlear implants. These devices are not > hearing aids, they do not augment failing hearing, they instigate > hearing where there was none. > > Is there room to include cochlear implants on the list of sense-bases? > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > ====================== > As you know, my take on the Dhamma is phenomenological or experiential. I > take "ear base" to refer not to a conventional object "out in the world," but > rather to what I call a "locational rupa". This perspective, though not the > term 'locational rupa', was suggested to me a while ago by Robert Kirkpatrick, > and I immediately adopted it the moment I heard it. > We associate hearing with a subjective physical location. Likewise for > seeing. We associate body-sense or touch with subjective locations all over and > within the conventional body. As I view it, the sense doors (perhaps other > than mind door) are subjective locations that we associate with the corresponding > sensing. I view such physical locations as rupas. > So, as regards ear door, in particular, I don't identify it with a > cochlear implant or with the physical ears or any part of them, but with a > locational rupa. > I'm not advocating that you or anyone else adopt ths same perspective. > I'm just pointing out that it is an alternative way to think about the sense > doors. > === I, of course, accept both your takes on this matter, and I certainly have no desire to have you see things another way. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- But I think that some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions are remarkably anatomical. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Aha! Suddenly an Abhidhammika, eh? ;-)) --------------------------------------- Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'm aware of these descriptions. I think they are for the purpose of pinpointing the location. (But, then, I could certainly be wrong. I am not persuaded of several Abghidhammic and commentarial notions. For example, Abhidhamma also countenances such things as life principle (lifeforce?) [Of course they DID speak of that on the original Star Trek!] and maleness and femaleness, of which I haven't yet been persuaded. ;-) --------------------------------------- Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback ------------------------------------ Howard: Any time! ;-) ------------------------------------ Kind Regards Herman =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47533 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing lbidd2 Nina: "The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them." Hi Nina, How does this fit into the practice? Also, regarding the fall of feeling and the other two, that seems to be linked to the cessation of ignorance, desire, action, and contact. How does the cessation of ignorance condition the subsiding of feeling, etc.? I can see how the cessation of ignorance conditions the cessation of feeling, but I don't see how the subsiding sub-moment is conditioned. Conditioned cessation isn't the same as conditioned subsiding. Is it just a parallel? BT 200: "The subsiding of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned cessation thus: With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of feeling." Larry 47534 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:22pm Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] buddhistmedi... Hi, Colette - Thank you for your post. > colette: exactly Tep, which is why I'm so consumed with the eternal question "what is truth" since it is all truth yet your version of the truth is from your pair of shoes, POV, while my version is from my pair > of shoes, POV, so we have to find a happy medium ground or we get into the battle of the ego by gratifying the ego which is to say that if your > version of truth is correct then mine is incorrect or wrong. Ah, we can't have that in today's society of competition now can we? Thus, the ego is consumed with being correct and if it is not correct then it is like > a rat caught in a trap, "It's a rat trap baby" The Boom Town Rats. > Tep: You are a clever woman. I like your comments very much, especially the following: Charles D: > > I just agree with what Jon said: "I'm not sure I see the value in > > trying to demonstrate the similarities between 2 different > > teachings. > > colette: well, just because you can't see any value does that mean that there is no value i.e. the perception of an aircraft by a radar and the detection of the Stealth aircraft by the same radar. > Best wishes, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, quidam wrote: > Good Morning Tep, > > > > --- colette wrote: > (snipped) > > > (snipped) > > colette: which is what I always do. "Yes I'm on my > way. I don't know where I'm goin'. I'm on my way" Paul > Simon. Here is where I have so much trouble with > individuals trying to tell me what is and is not > consciousness. AS IF THEY KNOW! I may not know where > I'm goin' but at least I can maintain consciousness so > as to find my way back, huh? ;-)) > ------------------ > > > toodles, > colette > 47535 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I think I can see how consciousness regulates the breath rupas. As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath rupas vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling? Larry 47536 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Jhana and Lay Disciple kelvin_lwin Hi All, Apologies if this has been posted but I happened to run into it and it made for interesting read. - kel http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm Conclusions: (1) Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhânas. Though some suttas include the jhânas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikâyas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhâna arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhânas. (2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhânas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhâna before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhânas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhânas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhânas in the preliminary phase of their practice. (3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhânas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhânic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. (4) Several non-returners in the Nikâyas claim to possess all four jhânas, and according to the Mahâmâluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhâna is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non- returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhâna as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhânas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds. (5) As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhânic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhânas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhâna-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm. (6) Although in the Nikâyas the tie between the two attainments -- the jhânas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhânas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhânas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhânas. 47537 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:04pm Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] kelvin_lwin Hi Tep and Colette, > Tep: You are a clever woman. I like your comments very much She must be too clever for me since I haven't been able to figure out her posts. My background is limited to Theravada Buddhism in order to understand most of the references easily. - kel 47538 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah (Kel, Howard, Larry, Mike and all ) - Thank you very much for taking time to reply to my previous post. Your main points (1 - 9) are listed below so that it is easier for others to see your thought stream. My reply to each item is correspondingly numbered. Sarah's 9 Points ----------------------- 1. I think that what is relevant will depend very much on how we view the teachings... as being the Buddha's detailed explanation of conditioned dhammas. 2. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or vipassana or of jhana as a basis for vipassana, still all dhammas arising are anatta. 3. Wisdom can determine which objects condition more kusala (wholesome states), such as when there is metta or reflection on death, the Buddha's virtues or breath for some and samatha can begin to develop if there are conditions for it. ... Through such understanding, there can be conditions for more calm in a day, but not by focusing or a special trying. 4. There were many people in the Buddha's time who attained jhanas but who never became enlightened. They could attain high jhanas but still not know anything about namas and rupas and not be any closer to finding release from samsara. 5. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? 6. When reality appears, there's no `in or out breaths'. This is a concept, not the reality of a special rupa, just conditioned by citta, which is breath. This could be discerned by the Buddha and some key disciples. 7. Adhicitta (higher concentration) is the development of calm and concentration of the 8fold path, not of jhana. 8. In the end, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. So, why delay the development of satipatthana by trying to calm the mind first? 9. I believe we can understand what is meant by `anapanasati meditation' better if we read it in the light of the teachings as a whole, especially the teachings on anatta. Tep's Comments ------------------------- 1. It is true that a main component of the Teachings is about conditioned dhammas. But there are also other important components of the Teachings like sila, samadhi, and insight knowledges. 2. Every moment, all dhammas arising everywhere are anatta. But this point is not the main concern of the Anapanasati Sutta; it is the main concern of the Anattalakkhana Sutta and Dependent Origination suttas. 3. Without special trying, there is no right effort to condition right view for clear understanding of the Four Noble Truths. "And what is right effort(samma-vayama)? There is the case where a monk generates desire(chandam janeti), endeavors(vayamati), arouses persistence(viriyam arabhati), upholds & exerts his intent (cittam pagganhati padahati) for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance(nhitiya), non-confusion(asammosaya), increase (bhiyyobhavaya), plenitude(vepullaya), development(bhavanaya), & culmination(paripuriya) of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort". 4. How do you know? Have you any evidence to suggest so? 5. Just count the suttas that talk about jhana and compare the total number to the suttas that say so-and-so bhikkhus become Arahant without jhana. I have found no more than two suttas in the latter category. 6. Here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (i) Breathing in long, he knows: "I breathe in long; or breathing out long, he knows: "I breathe out long". (ii) Breathing in short, he knows: ... (xvi) He trains thus: "I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment"; he trains thus: "I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment" '. [Vism VIII, 145] The great Arahant Sariputta attained his arahatta-phala through jhanas and vipassana-nana according to MN 111, Anupada Sutta. (The following excerpt consists of only para 9 and 10 of the sutta) [9] "Again, bhikkhus, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the fourth Jhana, which has neither-pleasure-nor-pain and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. [10] "And the states in the fourth Jhana - the equanimity, the neither- pleasant-nor-painful feeling, the mental unconcern due to tranquility, the purity of mindfulness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish. Regarding those states he abided un- attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood, There is an escape beyond this, and with the cultivation of that attainment he confirmed that there is. 7. Nyanatiloka Dictionary : This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samadhi, panna). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava). [endquote] Noble (right) concentration involves the 4 rupa-jhanas, according to several suttas (including DN 22): "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. [endquote] 8. Anapanasati bhavana consists of 4 tetrads, the first fits in the mold of kayanupassana satipatthana, the second is equivalent to vedananupassana satipatthana, the third is equivalent to cittanupassana satipatthana, and the last tetrad is dhammanupassana satipatthana. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw wrote, "The Commentary associates this (second) tetrad with full absorption in jhana, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhana (upacara-jhana), attained after the first appearance of the counterpart sign." So, it should be clear that jhana is the support of the four anupassanas in the fourth tetrad (to develop the 4 insight knowledges). 9. I believe we can understand what is meant by `anapanasati meditation' best if we read it in the light of the teachings on concentration(samadhi), especially the teaching on the development of mindfulness of breathing as a meditation object. It has been described by the Blessed One as having sixteen bases (vatthu) thus: 'And how developed, bhikkhus, how practiced much, is concentration through mindfulness of breathing both peaceful and sublime, an adulterated blissful abiding, banishing at once and stilling evil unprofitable thoughts as soon as they arise? Here bhikkhus, a bhikkhu gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. (i) Breathing in long, he knows: "I breathe in long; or breathing out long, he knows: "I breathe out long". (ii) Breathing in short, he knows: ... (xvi) He trains thus: "I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment"; he trains thus: "I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment" '. [Vism VIII, 145] I hope my reply is clear to you. Kind regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & all, > > You raised many good points in your post #47167. I think your series on > anapanasati is very useful for airing different understandings of samatha, > breath, meditation and so on. Thank you. > (snipped) > .... > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I'm going to try to respond to posts I've set aside to date -- others > will likely have to wait til I return from my trip as I'm rather behind. > ======== 47539 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! Evan_Stamato... Colette, Sorry for Butting in here but I can't help myself. > N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different from the > Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating understanding and > detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. colette: UNTRUE, I think that if we can find ways to rationalize our behavior and the behavior of others then it should be more than consoling and benefitial to society and humanity if we can find links, similarities, the TRUTH, of this mystical search. If we are stuck with either science or theology to explain our existance as well as the past and future then you've already achieved SHUNYATAT, SUNYATA, EMPTINESS, nothing, no meanings whatsoever. ******************************** Well, it also has to be realised that there are different focuses. Science does what it does for various reasons such as monetary gain, pure intellectual pursuit (ie solve this problem purely because it's there), etc. None of the aims of science is to liberate the mind. The Dhamma as expounded perfectly by the Lord Buddha, however, has only liberation as the aim. Certainly there will be overlap, I don't expect any aspect of the dhamma to contradict scientific investigation but science cannot cover all that the dhamma teaches and the dhamma does not concern itself with questions whose answers are not conducive to the attainment of the liberation of mind. As for theology, it has nothing to do with reality but is as a result of someone's vivid imagination so I won't even bother discussing this further as having any relevence to Buddhism or science. ******************************** colette: Thru meditation and the trance state yogis, arahants, buddhas, etc. have been able to achieve great things although you may choose to deny the ability of some people to walk on burning coals or place their fists thru solid objects or place a dagger thru the walls of his cave, etc. That is fine for a micro-manager that is consumed with controling everything in this life. I on the other hand tend to believe the mystical is a practicle coarse of study and vaible coarse as well. ******************************** Not so. The meditation that the Buddha teaches is a process of awakening not anything like a trance state. If you are going into a trance when meditating then you are not doing it right. Also, the mystical has nothing to do with dhamma. The "mystical" is something that cannot be fully explained whereas the dhamma can be explained, experienced and examined for oneself. Any powers that ensue from the practice of the path are by-products that when developed are repeatable with known conditions and effects. With Metta, Evan 47540 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! pt. 2 Evan_Stamato... Colette, Here I go again butting in. > ------- > > colette: <...>You keep talking about these > > things that are wholesome and unwholesome, good and bad, yet you fail > > to remind everybody that the wholesome/unwholesome, good/bad, etc, > > are in flux, they are maliable and changable, there is not a single > > standard upon which that these concepts have been measured on/in > > since the begining of time/history. > > ---------------------------------- > N: There is a standard: the Buddha Dhamma. But you have to find out for > yourselves: these things lead to what is beneficial, these to detriment. The > Buddha taught about kusala kamma and akusala kamma that bring their results > accordingly. Whatever you do, it will always come back to you sooner or > later. But of course, it is up to you to accept it or reject it. > ------- > colette: Oh how could I be so stupid and walk into your maze of your ignorance. Pardon me while I walk out by means of walking thru your walls! ******************* Let me see if I can elaborate on this issue a little more... What is wholesome? That which steers one towards liberation. What is unwholesome? That which steers one away from liberation. Therefore, one can go around killing living beings or lying to other beings in order to hurt them, or taking what is not theirs, however, the mind states which enable one to take part in that sort of behaviour are the mind states that hinder one's development on the path. You can call them kusala/akusala, wholesome/unwholesome, good/evil, etc but when it comes down to it the outcome is whether they lead to liberation or to more delusion. With Metta, Evan 47541 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 246 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (t) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Only the arahat has eradicated restlessness. So long as there are still conditions for the arising of akusala citta, it has to be accompanied by moha, ignorance, which is ignorant of realities, by ahirika, shamelessness, which does not abhor akusala, by anottappa, recklessness, which does not fear the consequences of akusala, and by uddhacca, restlessness, which is restless as to kusala. No matter whether the akusala citta is coarse or more subtle, these four akusala cetasikas have to accompany the akusala citta and assist it in performing its function. ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47542 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sesos con todo Evan_Stamato... Hi Colette, colette: what are you talking about. I finished it the second I began reading the first page since it directly applied to myself immediately. "you can verify it in your life." why should I use it to verify myself when I already know that I exist? I can verify it, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. ----------------------- Whereas I would agree that the five aggregates that one would normally define as a "you" currently exit, it cannot be argued that any of these five aggregates is unchanging and lasts forever. Therefore, the moment you say "you", "me", "I", etc, this concept has already changed before you finish saying (typing) it. With Metta, Evan 47543 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Kel, Thanks for the question. My understanding of sati in this post is as mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749, RobertK elaborates more on this. I guess there are various ways that one can thing of moral constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations and expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with others as self amongst other selves. Just out of interest, do you subscribe to the view that sati can and does arise in any situation? And do you think that a "random", unsustained moment of sati is of any benefit in the context of 24x7, sustained ignorance? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > The scenario you presented makes no sense to me given how I > understand sati. What is your definition? Mental seclusion of the > degree you're referring to seems to be more of absorption > concentration as opposed to sati. Some might even say moral > constraints are not possible without sati. > > - kel > > > You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any > > situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For > anyone > > engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close > > proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a > > car at a 100kmh with other cars all round should be positively > > avoided. And it is. Where there is any sense of responsibility > towards > > others, sati will not arise, so as to not bump into others, run into > > others, and so forth. Sure enough, it is the mental seclusion that is > > the key, but moral constraints in group situations prevent mental > > seclusion from arising. 47544 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Jhana, violent blows and worms (was: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions.) sarahprocter... Hi RobK, Colette, Connie, Herman & all, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > S: Yes, the leading disciples, but not the majority who became > > enlightened, I believe. > > ____________ > Dear Sarah, > > I must have written at least 10 times on this forum about how the > great majority of disciples were sukkha-vipassana, so not sure why > you are repeating this? > ------------------------------- ... S: A misunderstanding on my part as I was rushing out. Apologies. ... > > S: Yes and some had attained jhanas previously but they weren't > > necessarily used as basis for enlightenment, I believe. > _____________ > You mean that some of them were sukkha-vipassaka? I don't think so. > _____________________ .... S: I’d be interested to see any references which make it clear that jhana was always used as basis for enlightenment for these disciples. ..... > > p.s the painful bodily feeling we associate with certain > experiences of > > visible objects and sounds on the eyes and ears are, I believe, > body-door > > experiences of tangible objects in between the eye and ear door > processes. > > We discussed this point in India last year(Banares tape). > _________________- > I am bit lost, why are you bringing this up? ... Again, apologies for a rushed comment, in this case without the full context. I was adding a comment to your good discussion with Colette. Now I have it: Colette asked: > > Having worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier I will > ask: is > > sound a tangible object if not why then does it or will it destroy > my > > eardrum when a certain decimal level is reached? Does it not > impact my > > body the same as an aircraft would if I walked in front of it? > What > > about light and lumens in reference to the eye and sight, vision? .... You replied: > All rupas arise in groups. Sound(sadda) rupa must come togther with > other rupas- including pathavi(hardness). When hearing only the > element of sadda is known. However,pathavi- present in the same > group as the sound- is contacting the body base at the same time and > thus can impact(and even damage) the physical area supporting the > ear base. .... S: I agree that the impact (damage) to the physical area is a result of hardness being experienced through the body-sense and not of sound being experienced through the ear-sense. However, I was just wondering whether that hardness is the hardness arising in exactly the same kalapa as the sound. As we know, there cannot be an experience through two different sense doors at the same and this would seem to rule out the possibility of it being in the same kalapa. Colette, there is body-sense all over the body, including the ears and eyes. I’ll be interested to read any further comments anyone has on this detail. (Connie, if you come across the relevant parts of the tapes on any of these points, pls add anything further). Thank you Colette for raising such good questions too. Yes, pleasant and painful feeling only accompany body-sense consciousness (as opposed to the other senses), because of the impact of objects on the body-sense, ‘the violence of the impact’s blow’. I appreciate the way you’ve started from the beginning of ‘Cetasikas’ and are carefully reading and reflecting as you go. I’ll look forward to your further comments, but as I said to Tep, I may not be able to respond further til after my trip. Metta, Sarah p.s Connie, thanks for your other posts inc. the one on the Buddha’s omniscience. Glad you’re enjoying the Sri Lanka recordings, I think Herman would like the discussion at the very end on the worm – I was reminded of it when he added his cochlea implant comments. Colette, try listening to say, the first part of the discussion in India 04 on dhammastudygroup. org and let us know how you find it (if you can access it). ========= 47545 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is truth verifiable ever? sarahprocter... Dear Avidu, --- avinduandura wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I needed to move little further. ie,. if the nibbana is just a dream > like thing for those WHO ATTENDED nibbana? if it is exist in THEIR > mind only? or just a imagination? ... S: No it is a reality, the unconditioned reality for those who realize or experience nibbana. Of course, no ‘WHO’, but pa~n~naa (wisdom) and accompanying eightfold path factors that experience. .... > > Any way, this suspicious thoughts are fading away from my mind so I > would like to start learning buddhism in a methodical way. ... S: Good. Ask friends here any questions and share your reflections. Also, you may llike to see ‘Abhidhamma – beginners’ in ‘Useful Posts’ in the files section of DSG. .... > > There are so many dhamma talks, articles and books that we can > reed.but i feel those are not related to each other. so I would like > to start to read the tipitaka. > > I prefer pali as the language and believe reading skills are enouhg > to read and understand tipitaka. good news is all tipitaka is only > about 20000 pages.i saw this in a artical but not sure about it. > > also found tipitaka at www.metta.lk/tipitaka. > > this will be hard as I found no single pali dictionary that contain > all the pali words found in the tipitaka. and also no idea of how > many pali words are there in the tipitaka. .... Also see: > http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html .... > I appriceate your suggestion on this. > > You asked "What is life at this moment as you see it?" <...> > life at this movement is just a play of one such a program. I have > little control over choosing which program to play. > > but i have no control over which set of thoughts and action to > posses in a particular stage of life. I liked sweets in my childhood > but I dont want it any more. I didnt put any effort to make me > dislike sweets. it just happend. I think same rule will be applied > to the many of the things in life. money, respect, love etc.. ... S: yes, this is how I see it too . No self, no control.....conditioned dhammas... More on ‘Anatta and Control’ in ‘Useful Posts’. Avidu, please join in any of the other threads too, like the Visuddhimagga or Cetasikas ones....everyone enjoys questions, the more basic, the better! I’ll look forward to talking to you more later. Apologies in advance for any delays. Metta, Sarah ======= 47546 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:24am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, > My understanding of sati in this post is as > mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749 I read it and the it was about sati-sampajanna which is of course different from just sati. > constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations and > expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with > others as self amongst other selves. So you think moments of sati-sampajanna are kinda disorienting since we lose the frame of reference of self and also others? For every kusala citta there's a corresponding kiriya citta of arahats. We know there's only kiriyas appearing in arahats. Yet they can walk, eat, converse with people, give dhamma lectures and basically any activity just fine. So to me the scenario you're considering isn't really a problem for true sati-sampajanna. Or the standard abhidhamma argument that everything is so fast, it's just like a fleeting thought that you can return without really missing a beat. > Just out of interest, do you subscribe to the view that sati can and > does arise in any situation? And do you think that a "random", > unsustained moment of sati is of any benefit in the context of 24x7, > sustained ignorance? I think there are enough suttas with stories of people attaining enlightenment in many situations to warrant saying it need not be a limitation. However, likelihood of it happening to neyya people like us during ordinary activity is very tiny if not effectively zero. That is not to say there cannot be an object or trigger such things like panna or at least samvega. Like seeing some dead person reminds us we can go at any moment so not to be forgetful. Any kusala is of benefit and a really high quality moment can finish the business. But in general it's probably just a drop in the bucket. I do believe having sustained sati does increase the chance of real panna arising. So the reverse of sustained ignorance is likely just leading us to lower realms. - kel 47547 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,171 sarahprocter... Hi Larry (& Phil), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 171. Herein, (xlv) by its means they hate, or it itself hates, or it is > just mere hating, thus it is 'hate' (dosa). It has the characteristic of > savageness, like a provoked snake. Its function is to spread, like a > drop of poison, or its function is to burn up its own support, like a > forest fire. It is manifested as persecuting (duusana), like an enemy > who has got his chance. Its proximate cause is the grounds for annoyance > (see A.v,150). It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with > poison. .... S: No matter how often we read comments like these, they always make an impact, I find. '....like stale urine mixed with poison.' And, let's be clear, dosa isn't just 'hate', but any aversion. The proximate cause: 'grounds for annoyance'. Lots more excellent material when we come to dosa in 'Cetasikas' too: "Dosa often arises on account of what others are doing or saying to us or to someone else. Even a good deed done to someone else can be a reason for annoyance if we deslike that person.' Phil's been making helpful comments on this topic. On wrong view and sth I said on a tape wheich you disagreed with. My only comment is that I think we underestimate the danger of wrong view and the cultivation of it. So my comment was to the effect that I think it's better not to hear the 'so-called' Buddha's teachings if it just leads to the following and developing of the wrong eightfold path. Wrong practice leads to more wrong practice, so any right view now, arises in spite of such wrong practice in the past, not because of it. (Actually, I was repeating a point that K.Sujin makes which took me a while to really appreciate too). Metta, Sarah ========== 47548 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? sarahprocter... Hi James, I hope you’re enjoying your break in Arizona. It must be quite a change of scene. Have you been back to your temple? --- buddhatrue wrote: > >S: James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in > suttas with > > our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at > dhammas > > more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and > mine. > > James: I didn't comment about 'dhammas', I commented about the > content of suttas. ... S: Ah, but isn’t the content of suttas about dhammas? .... > > You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this > because I > > see the truths as being common or universal. > > James: Then, in other words, you speak in a generalized way because > you believe that you embody the 'truths'? ... S: No, I don’t believe this. The ‘truths’ are all there are. Let’s take the khandhas – they are not inside or outside or belonging to anyone. There only are the khandhas arising and falling away. This is what I believe or what the thinking which I call ‘I’ believes at this moment. .... >Do you believe that > everyone embodies the 'truths'? Aren't there differences between > people? ... S: Not only for different people but also for us – different cittas and cetasikas experiencing and being experienced at each moment. So the truth is that what we take for people and ourselves are just these different namas and rupas too, of course. .... >Why can't you single yourself out as being different from > others? Why can't you see the dhamma in a more personalized way, as > applying to you and your life? ... S: It’s no problem, but usually I don’t find it helpful. To give you a ‘personalized’ example: I read Azita’s comments about annoyance with people and I started reflecting on how I don’t think so much about people or find them annoying as I might have in the past. But immediately as I thought like this, there was attachment and conceit and clinging to an idea of ‘my thinking’ and ‘my lesser annoyance’. See here how the banner is up and flying already without needing to advertise it further or cling to it anymore. Better to just understand these dhammas – the thinking, the annoyance, the attachment, the conceit—as conditioned dhammas, not self at all. When it’s all ‘my experience’, there’s no understanding of the Buddha’s teachings. I think that such attachment to ‘self’ catches us off-guard all the time. But it’s just another dhamma and awareness can slip in at anytime, even when there’s useless thinking with papanca going on like this. I hope that helps and is ‘personal’ enough:). You see, I'm trying to work toward agreement too:)). ..... > James: Again, I wasn't talking about 'dhammas', I was talking about > DN 8 "The Great Lion's Roar". The Buddha doesn't mention 'dhammas' in > that sutta. ... S: He’s talking about wholesome and unwholesome states and the path out of samsara. I read these as being dhammas. .... <...> >>Another short favourite > sutta or > > rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen > Mallika > > which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. > > James: No, that sutta said that Queen Mallika found herself dearest, > not that everyone does that; and the Buddha agreed that we should > each hold ourselves dearest. Maybe you should re-visit that sutta. .... S: Qu Mallika: ‘There is no one...dearer to me than myself.’ K. Pasenadi: ‘Neither is there anyone...dearer to me than myself.’ The Buddha: ‘On traversing all directions with the mind One finds no one anywhere dearer than oneself.’. .... S: I think this makes it pretty clear that this is a common affliction before such attachment has been eradicated. Did the Buddha agree that we should each hold ourselves dearest? I don’t think so. ‘Likewise everyone holds himself most dear, Hence one who loves himself should not harm another.’ In other words, just as we are very attached to ourselves, so are others. Bearing this in mind, we should treat others well. The commentary which I’ve quoted before makes this very clear, I believe. “....whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.......since each being holds the self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonize with the hand, a clod of earth or a stick and so on, another being......For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one’s (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma.” (Masefiled transl of comy, Ireland transl of sutta, Sona Chapter 1, Udana) .... > I wasn't suggesting to cultivate more thoughts about 'me'; I was > suggesting that maybe it isn't healthy or natural to blur the > distinctions between me, you, and us. ... S: I’m suggesting that the sooner dhammas are seen for what they are, not me, you and us, the better. Of course this doesn’t mean at all that we forget who we’re talking to or have any difficulty relating on a conventional level. .... > James: Oh, let's focus more on where we agree than where we > disagree. Believe it or not, I am trying to work toward agreement. ... S: I can see that and I think we’ve made some progress. Anyway, we both agree that there’s a lot to usefully consider in the sutta you selected and that the teachings are very deep. I do find it difficult to post on the road, James, and find it a good chance to work on the tape editing etc instead if I have any free time. However, I will be following the list very closely and will try to chip in briefly here and there, so no need for any panic attacks..lol:-)) Seriously, you always say the list is better when the moderators go away(or when we give the illusion of doing so), so enjoy! I’ll look forward to more discussions (apart from any ‘chip-ins’) with you later. Metta, Sarah ======== 47549 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:56pm Subject: Truth Triumphs ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Truthful Honesty is the Sixth Mental Perfection: Honesty is Trust Honesty is Truthful Honesty is Guarantee Honesty is Confidence Honesty is Consistence Honesty is Convincing Honesty is Certainty Honesty is Credibility Honesty is Reliability Honesty is Authenticity Honesty is Integrity Honesty is Accuracy Honesty is Commitment Honesty is Sincerity Honesty is Security Honesty is Reality Honesty is a Must. Honesty characteristically never deceives, it's function is to verify the actual & factual, it's manifestation is excellence... Sincere exact truthfulness is the proximate cause of honesty! All evil states & crimes converge upon transgression of Truth... Devotion to Truth is the only reliable foundation of Nobility! Like The Buddha demand of your own mind: You have to give me an honest answer, understand?! I won't accept anything phoney. And once you've answered, you have to stick to that very answer & not slide around. Don't be a traitor to yourself. Be sober & straight. Therefore: Undertake this 4th training rule of avoiding all false speech... If one is not true to the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha's teachings will not be true to oneself, either... That Dhamma, which is used only as a costume, a uniform or alibi, does not bear fruit, as it's intention is not true! Honesty, however, makes you quite worthy of respect. If one is painstakingly honest towards oneself, one is also meticulously honest towards others. If one however deceives oneself, believing own lies, one automatically also deceives others, betraying them. Honesty, however, makes you quite worthy of respect. Make an island of yourself, be your own light & illumination, make yourself your only safe haven; there is no other protection. Make Truth your only island, make Truth your sole refuge; make Truth your lone lamp; there is no other luminosity. Digha Nikaya, 16 The straight person, self-controlled, keeping precepts, open & honest, is both worthy & fit for the yellow robe. The hiding person, uncontrolled, immoral, keeping secrets, not honest, is neither worthy nor fit for the yellow robe. Dhammapada 9+10 Overcome the furious by friendship; overcome the evil one by goodness; overcome the stasher by generosity; overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 The one who destroys life; The one who speaks false; The one who takes what is not given; The one who mates with another's partner; The one who is addicted to drugs and alcohol; Such one - even in this world - digs up his own root !!! Dhammapada 246-47 They who falsely declare: "That happened" about what did not happen, or: "I did not do that" about what they actually did, they earn themselves a ticket to grilling in Hell. Dhammapada 306 When the Blessed One heard about the king's spies, who for money stole information from others, he explained: One should not take just any job. One should not be another's man. One should not live dependent upon another. One should not sell the truth for money. Udana VI - 2 The Bodhisatta was once caught by a man-eater, which sat him free on the condition that he returned the next day. He kept his word & did so & much later remembered: Protecting this way of truth, having given up my life & kingdom, I thereby set free 100 captured nobles, as the man-eater lost his nerve. In honesty I had thereby reached ultimate perfection. Mahasutasoma-Jataka no. 537 ______________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47550 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Tep & all other Meditators: Regarding requisites for Depth and Success in Meditation: If one, despite considerable effort within or "inside" the meditation itself, fails to make progress, reach depth, settle in stable calm or gain absorption, then one should consider the major "outside the meditation" factor: Morality: "Are my Morality properly purified, quite purified, completely purified?", "Do I keep the 5 precepts properly clean, quite clean, completely clean?", "Do I keep the 8 precepts clean on each and all of the observance days?"! Since as said: "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, releasing, praised by the wise, uninfluenced, unbendable and favourable to concentration of mind." DN 16 Because: The proximate cause of concentration is happiness. The proximate cause of happiness is tranquillity. The proximate cause of tranquillity is satisfaction. The proximate cause of satisfaction is joy. The proximate cause of joy is gladness. The proximate cause of gladness is absence of regrets. The proximate cause of absence of regrets is Morality! It is in this way that Morality (sila) gradually enables attainment of Concentration (samadhi)... And therefore also this reciprocal causality: Exactly to the extent that Morality is incomplete will Concentration also remain incomplete ... Take Home: Sila => Samadhi. Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge... Never give up! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! 47551 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 439 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala has been explained in the previous post. 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala Arahatta means 'eradicated'. Maggatthaana is made up of 'magga and thaana'. Magga here means 'magga citta' or 'path-consciousness' and thaana means 'place'. So arahatta maggatthaana means 'the place where arahatta magga citta arises'. Puggala means 'individual'. So 'arahatta maggatthaana puggala' means an individual where arahatta magga citta arises at. Actually there is no puggala or individual as many of the worldly people think. But there are only dhamma of ultimate realities and they are citta, cetasika, ruupa, and nibbana. Arahatta maggatthaana puggala is just a combination of 5 khandha and they are 1. ruupakkhandha (hadaya vatthu or heart base) 2. vedanakkhandha (magga sukha or path-pleasure) 3. sannakkhandha (magga sanna or path-cognition) 4. sankhaarakkhandha (maggassancetana etc or path-volition etc) 5. vinnaanakkhandha (magga citta or path-consciousness) Likewise there are 6 other ariyas and they are just these aggregates. 3. Anaagaami phalatthaana puggala This is an individual where anaagaami phala citta arises. Anagaami = ana + aagaami Ana means 'no'. Aagaami means 'come to the village of human beings'. So anagaami means 'not coming back to human realm'. So anaagams are non-returners. This puggala or individual is where anaagaami phala citta or non-returner-path-fruition-consciousness arises. 4. Anaagaami maggatthaana puggala This individual is where anagami magga citta arises. 5. Sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala This individual is where sakadaagaami phala citta arises. Sakadaagaami = saki.m + aagaami Saki.m means 'once' and aagaami means 'come back to human village'. So sakadaagams are once-returners to human realms. They have 2 more lives from their current life. If 2nd last life is not human they can come back to human realm as last life and there they all become arahats. If they are reborn in human realm in the 2nd last life they will not be reborn in human realm in their last life. They will become anaagam or arahatta. So they are called once-returners to human realms. 6. Sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala This individual is where sakadaagaami magga citta arises. 7. Sotapatti phalatthaana puggala This individual is where sotapatti phala citta arises. Sotapatti = sota + aapatti Sota = flow, the flow of river Aapatti means 'reach'. Sotaapatti means 'those who reach the river's flow or who enter the flow of river or stream'. They are also known as stream-enterer or stream-entrants. Because if a log reaches the stream it will be carried away along the flow and finally reach the ocean (nibbana). Sotapatti magga citta is the first stage where individual reaches the gate of ariyas. 8. Sotapatti maggatthaana puggala This individual is where sotapatti magga citta arises. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47552 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 03 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 3. 36 contemplation on sense-bases (ayatana) There are 6 sense-bases and there are 6 contemplation on each. So there are 36 contemplations on sense-bases (ayatana) 6 sense-bases are 1. cakkhaayatana (eye-sense-base) & rupaayatana (form-sense-base) 2. sotaayatana (ear-sense-base) & saddaayatana (sound-sense-base) 3. ghaanayatana(nose-sense-base) & gandhaayatana(smell-sense-base) 4. jivhaayatana(tongue-sense-base) & rasaayatana(taste-sense-base) 5. kaayaayatana(body-sense-base) & photthabbaayatana(touch-sen-base) 6. manaayatana (mind-sense-base)& dhammaayatana(mind-object-sen-base) The first in each pair is internal sense-base or ajjhattika ayatana & the second in each pair is external sense-base or bahiddha ayatana. 6 contemplations are 1. this is eye (cakkhaayatana) 2. this is form (ruupaayatana) 3. this is fetter arises from them ( 10 fetters ) 4. this is 'unwise attention' that makes arising of fetters. 5. this is 'wise attention' that makes dissolution of fetters. 6. this is path-knowledge that eradicate this or that fetter. 1 and 2 are replaced by appropriate ayatana or sense-base. Again the last contemplation might be thought as impossible for ordinary lay people. But The Buddha described these and these are not prescription. While those who just become sotapams / sakadagams / anagams / aharats will contemplate the 6th contemplation all puthujana can contemplate with transferred knowledge. That is 'If these 'fetter of conceit' or maana samyojana vanishes forever and it never arises again that would be because of arahatta magga naana or arahatta path-knowledge or eraicating path-knowledge.' Puthujana just contemplates like that. So far 25 contemplations on hindrances, 15 contemplations on aggregates, and 36 contemplations on sense-bases have been talked. So there have been 25 + 15 + 36 = 76 contemplations among 108 contemplations of Dhammaanupassana satipatthaana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47553 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Howard and Htoo, Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, Quite paramatthic?? The descriptions were all for most normal phenomena. Examples are sense-sensitivity or pasada ruupa that were described on the basis of physical organs or physical part of the body. Just cochlea implant does not change any Dhamma that are always right. There are cornea transplant, heart transplant etc. Cochlea is just a physical base for sotappasada ruupa. Sotappasada ruupa can never be found with 5 physical sense. So if someone thinks that cochlea transplant is sotappasada then this fact indicates inability to see what is real. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47554 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: Where is the Path?/ Already Answered! htootintnaing Dear Htoo - I am sorry to disappoint you. Your questions were already answered in my last post. Maybe it is now your turn to reread that post and discover my intended answers by yourself. With unlimited Karuna, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, What I wrote were not questions. They are for contemplation. Please read Digha Nikaaya 15. Then you will become clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47555 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman (and Htoo) - --------------------------------------- Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite paramatthic, actually :-) Thanks for both your feedback ------------------------------------ Howard: Any time! ;-) ------------------------------------ Kind Regards Herman =================== With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman and Howard, Just a question. Do 'sotavinnaana cittas' arise at cochlea transplant? With respect, Htoo Naing 47556 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:37am Subject: Hinderers-Obstructors-Delayers htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 2 sets of hindrances. The first set comprises a total of 5 nivarana or 5 hindrances whereas the second set includes a total of 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. Suttas preache there are 5 nivaranas or 5 hindrances. These 5 hindrances or nivarana dhamma are 1. kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous hindrances' 2. byaapaada nivarana or 'ill-willed hindrances' 3. thina-middha nivarana or 'slothed-torpored hindrances' 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana or 'wandering-worrying hindrances' 5. vicikicchaa nivarana or 'suspicious hindrances'. These 5 hindrances obstruct arising of jhaana-kusala. By obstructing jhana-kusala they indirectly obstruct arising of magga-kusala. Here what needed is to contemplate on the fact that whether jhana can give rise to magga-naana. There were many many jhaana-laabhii or jhaana-possesser or jhaana- owner or jhana-holder or jhana-handler or jhana-expert even before the era of The Buddha's teaching. If jhaana can give rise to magga- naana The Buddha would not have been needed to arise to preach anatta and point out the way to nibbana. But this is not the case. So just jhaana attainment is nothing for magga-naana even though it may support arising of magga naana. But arising of magga naana is also obstructed by a dhamma. That dhamma is subtle dhamma. It is so subtle that even the two teachers of Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama could not see it, could not eliminate it. That subtle dhamma is also a hindrance. It is also an obstruction. Even though that subtle dhamma do not obstruct jhaana it does hinder arising of magga-kusala. What is that dhamma? It is avijja-nivarana or 'ignoring hindrances'. This is subtle dhamma. All jhaana including 5 ruupa jhaana and 4 aruupa jhaana do not have any trace of moha or ignorance. But without the knowledge given by The Buddha no one will see anatta. This inability to see anatta is a hindrance. This hindrance is avijja- nivarana. So in the second set of hindrances there are 6 nivarana or 6 hindrances. They are 1. sensuous hindrances (kaamacchanda nivarana) 2. ill-willed (byaapaada nivarana) 3. slothed-torpored (thina-middha nivarana) 4. wandering-worrying (uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana) 5. suspicious (vicikicchaa nivarana) 6. ignoring (avijjaa nivarana) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47557 From: Nicholas Benedict Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:42am Subject: Bangkok robitusson2000 Hi, This is my first post. I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here for English speakers or foreigners? Thanks, Nick. sarah abbott wrote: Hi James, I hope you’re enjoying your break in Arizona. It must be quite a change of scene. Have you been back to your temple? <....> 47558 From: nina Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 171. Dosa. Text Vis.: Herein, (xlv) by its means they hate, or it itself hates, or it is just mere hating, thus it is 'hate' (dosa). ------- The Pali term dussati used here means: to become bad, corrupted, to offend, injure. The cetasika dosa hates or has aversion, and it also causes the accompanying dhammas to be corrupted or to have aversion. This is expressed by the term: by means of it (tena). This expression is often used to indicate that the dhammas that arise together condition one another. Here, all of them are affected by dosa. -------- Text Vis.: It has the characteristic of savageness, like a provoked snake. --------- N: The Tiika comments on savageness (Ca.n.dikka.m): anger or irritation (kujjhana.m). ---------- Text Vis.: Its function is to spread, like a drop of poison, -------- N: The Tiika explains first about the way of occurring of dosa in oneself. The Expositor (II, p. 342) explains: . One is affected by an undesirable sense object just as poison makes the body writhe. --------- Text Vis.: or its function is to burn up its own support, like a forest fire. _____ N: The term support, nissaya, refers to the heartbase, the physical base of all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. The Tiika explains that dosa as it were pierces the body. Sometimes dosa is compared to a dart that pierces the body. It affects also the body and can cause sickness. ------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as persecuting (duusana), like an enemy who has got his chance. Its proximate cause is the grounds for annoyance (see A.v,150). It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with poison. ------- N: Persecuting is a translation of duusana. However, this also means: defiling. The Tiika explains that duusana, defiling, pertains to oneself and others. By dosa one harms oneself and others. One persecutes or hates someone else because of an undesirable object (for him who hates) when another person experiences an enjoyable result. Therefore it is said that dosa should be regarded like stale urine mixed with poison. As to the proximate cause of dosa, the Visuddhimagga refers to the the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, Ch III, § 9, IV, 406): ³Monks, there are these nine bases of strife. What nine? (The thought): He has done me harm- stirs up strife; so also the thoughts: he is doing me harm; he will do me harm; he has done harm to a dear and loved one of mine; he is doing harm to such an one; he will do harm to him; he has done good to one who is not dear or loved by me; he is doing good to such an one; he will do good to him...² ***** Conclusion: There are many shades of dosa, aversion, it may be very slight or strong. There are many synonyms of dosa that express different degrees. It can be fear, anxiety, annoyance, irritation, distress, sorrow, anger, hate, malignity, hostility or violence. In all these cases dosa dislikes, has aversion towards the object experienced at that moment. It is always accompanied by unhappy feeling. Dosa is savage, not soft and gentle like mettaa. There is no wieldiness, lightness, adaptability, no shame of akusala, no fear of its consequences. The Expositor (II, p. 342) explains that dosa ruins everything that is good and beautiful, thereby showing its danger: The Dhammasanga.ni speaks of . The Expositor explains : Dosa is among the cetasikas that are the khandha of formations. The khandhas arise because of their appropriate conditions and fall away immediately. There is no person who could exercise control over the arising of dosa. But right understanding of it can be developed. Through right understanding of this cetasika we come to understand that the circumstances of life or other people are not the real cause of dosa. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant sense objects and when we experience an unpleasant object, dosa is likely to arise. So long as the latent tendency of dosa has not been eradicated it arises. Only the non-returner who does not cling anymore to sense pleasures has eradicated dosa. **** Nina 47559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 12-07-2005 02:35 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: I think I can see how consciousness regulates the > breath rupas. > > As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath rupas > vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling? ------ N: There are many kinds of cittas arising when there is not mindfulness of breath. There may be: kusala cittas with mindfulness of another object, akusala cittas, vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas. I do not understand your point. Nina. 47560 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing nilovg Hi Tep, op 12-07-2005 01:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...:> > Tep: So, right thinking is another name of samma-sankappa, and right > view(samma-ditthi) + right thinking = panna-khandha. ---- N: riight. ------- > N: The Co. explains that vipassana has vitakka as assistant: >> vitakka hits the object so that panna can realize it as impermanent, >> dukkha, anattaa. Without vitakka pannaa would not be able to do this. > > Tep: Is this 'vitakka' the jhana factor of the 1st jhana? ------- It is the same cetasika but the object is different. In order to attain the first jhana, vitakka is needed in order to concentrate on the object of samatha. It hits the meditation subject again and again. In the higher jhanas when the yogavacara has become more skilled, vitakka is no longer needed. In order to abandon this factor he must have a precise understanding of it, but he does not understand it as non-self. In vipassana the object is the characteristics of nama and rupa appearing at the present moment, one at a time. The aim is to see them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. ------- If it is, then it implies that panna-khandha (for penetrating the path) is supported (at > least) by the 1st jhana. ------ N: It depends for whom. The person who is jhaanalabhii or the person who is not. ----------- T: Another implication is that samma-sankappa is exactly the same as 'vitakka' as a jhana factor, or "thinking" as "an essential factor of vipassana" is not the ordinary thinking we do while reading or listening. -------- N: The word thinking is confusing. It is the cetasika vitakka accompanying many cittas but not every citta. As a jhanafactor it has a task different from vitakka in vipassana. Their objects are different and also their aims. But in both cases they have to accompany paññaa, respectively paññaa of the level of samatha and paññaa of the level of vipassanaa. Nina. 47561 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] brain etc. nilovg Hi Colette, Thanks for your three posts. Good when you find you can verify things. Please continue on this way. You do not have to have blind faith. Brain, science, etc. This is just another angle. This is not denied by the Buddha. But he taught a way to be liberated from attachment, aversion, ignorance. Nina. op 11-07-2005 17:58 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > N: I think the Abhidhamma is very realistic. As you continue, you > may come >> to the conclusion that you can verify it in your life. > > colette: what are you talking about. I finished it the second I began > reading the first page since it directly applied to myself > immediately. > > "you can verify it in your life." why should I use it to verify > myself when I already know that I exist? I can verify it, the > Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. 47562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: driving a car and sati. nilovg Hi Herman, cittas are arising and falling away very fast. In between our work, or driving a car, there can be a moment of kusala citta with sati and understanding of the visible object or hardness at that moment. But I do not say that it is easy. Such a short moment of satipatthana would never interfere with what you are doing. On the contrary, it is to one's benefit. Satipatthana is not the same as the development of concentration on one meditation subject. Nina. >> You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any >> situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For > anyone >> engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close >> proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a >> car at a 100kmh ... 47563 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing nilovg Hi Larry, op 12-07-2005 02:19 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "The Co. states: why are feeling, saññaa and vitakka, > thinking, mentioned together here? Because it is not easy to know them." > How does this fit into the practice? ------ N: After that the Co repeats: they are difficult to know but they appear to the bhikkhu. The anapanasati is included in the first Application of Mindfulness and this is very meaningful. There is not only breath the yogavacara has to be mindful of, there are also many other dhammas: first the four great elements and the derived rupas are mentioned. The Co. states, just before the section of feelings that the word , body, refers to ruupakaaya and naama-kaaya, because< contemplation of aniccaa etc. (aniccaanupassana) pertains to naama-kaaya and ruupa-kaaya, not to the kaayanimitta.> Thus, we learns that he is not only aware of breath, but also of citta, cetasikas, feeling. That is why the Visuddhimagga stresses that the four tetrads pertain severally to the four Applications of Mindfulness. The objects of satipatthana should not be limited. All the subjects of satipatthana we read about in the satipatthanasutta are the most helpful means to be non-forgetful, to be aware in any situation of whatever object appears. We should profit to the full of all these reminders we find in this sutta. Take the postures, the parts of the body: they are with us in daily life. ------ L: Also, regarding the fall of feeling and the other two, that seems to be linked to the cessation of ignorance, desire, action, and contact. How does the cessation of > ignorance condition the subsiding of feeling, etc.? ------ N: When we are liberated from the cycle there is no more rebirth, no longer the arising of nama and rupa, no longer the arising of feeling. But as the Co. indicated: the fall should be seen in two ways: momentary, and in relation to the D.O. Momentary ceasing: this is the characteristic of impermanence or aniccaa. The stages of insight have to be developed in the right order. ------ L:I can see how the cessation of ignorance conditions the cessation of feeling, but I don't > see how the subsiding sub-moment is conditioned. Conditioned cessation > isn't the same as conditioned subsiding. Is it just a parallel? ------ N: this refers to the two ways. As to the momentary cessation: a dhamma falls away since it has arisen because of conditions. There is a coming together of different conditioning factors for the arising of a dhamma. These factors associate just for a moment, and then, since the conditioning factors are momentary, also the conditioned dhamma has to fall away. For example seeing: here is a coinciding of different factors: the association of visible object with the eyebase so that seeing can arise. Seeing is preceded by the eye-door adverting-consciousness. Seeing is the result of kamma. Only if we distinguish nama from rupa their falling away can be discerned later on. Nina. 47564 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:43am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Kel, Thanks for your post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > My understanding of sati in this post is as > > mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749 > > I read it and the it was about sati-sampajanna which is of course > different from just sati. == I am happy to accept that I do not know the difference. Would you be so kind as to briefly explain a bit more. == > > > constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations and > > expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with > > others as self amongst other selves. > > So you think moments of sati-sampajanna are kinda disorienting > since we lose the frame of reference of self and also others? For > every kusala citta there's a corresponding kiriya citta of arahats. > We know there's only kiriyas appearing in arahats. Yet they can > walk, eat, converse with people, give dhamma lectures and basically > any activity just fine. So to me the scenario you're considering > isn't really a problem for true sati-sampajanna. == Part of the discussion in post #39749 centres around the fact that at a moment of sati(-sampajana), third-party accounts of what is happening have no bearing on the matter. It may appear to others that there is a dhamma talk going on, a conversation, a lunch. Do you, or anyone else, know what it is like to be a stream of kiriya cittas, even for a short while? Thank you for all your other comments. I do appreciate them Kind Regards Herman 47565 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, I would like to communicate with you about this and other things, but that can only happen if you can write at my level without changing your understanding. That is because I cannot write at your level, and even if I wanted to, it would take me many many years, as least as many years as it has taken for you to learn all these facts. Some more below. == > > Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as set > in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the > ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can sleep > only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) > > Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no > matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies that. > Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite > paramatthic, actually :-) > > Thanks for both your feedback > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Herman, > > Quite paramatthic?? > > The descriptions were all for most normal phenomena. Examples are > sense-sensitivity or pasada ruupa that were described on the basis of > physical organs or physical part of the body. == Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? == > > Just cochlea implant does not change any Dhamma that are always right. > > There are cornea transplant, heart transplant etc. > > Cochlea is just a physical base for sotappasada ruupa. Sotappasada > ruupa can never be found with 5 physical sense. So if someone thinks > that cochlea transplant is sotappasada then this fact indicates > inability to see what is real. == I have looked and could not immediately understand what sotappasada ruupa means. But I do know what hearing means . (there's hope for me :-)) And I also know that without physical organ, the relevant sense is not there. I am sure that I am very incompetent at seeing what is real, but it just appears to me that the physical sense is a sine-qua-non (Latin for - without which not) for sensation. Is the ear not a physical sense organ? Is the cochlear implant not a physical sense organ, but different to the ear, and giving different hearing than an ear? Kind Regards Herman > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47566 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok sarahprocter... Hi Nick, (Sukin and all), Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting. --- Nicholas Benedict wrote: > Hi, This is my first post. > I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a > teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here > for English speakers or foreigners? ... S: Yes, you're going to get a lot of help. I know Sukin (and maybe Betty and Ivan Matt if they're reading) will 'adopt' you and help with lots of details and answer any questions. others who've spent time in Bangkok like James or Phil may add comments too. Many of us here study with A.Sujin and make special trips to Bangkok to discuss the Dhamma with her. Jon & I will be there next month, so perhaps we'll see you. Why not say a little more about your background and interest in Buddhism meanwhile which will help people when they respond. How long have you lived in Bkk? Metta, Sarah ========== 47567 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, Thank you for your question. > Dear Herman and Howard, > > Just a question. > > Do 'sotavinnaana cittas' arise at cochlea transplant? > == I don't know, because 1] I don't know what sotavinnaana cittas are like 2] I don't know the theory of sotavinnaana cittas 3] I don't have a cochlear implant 4] There are no references in the Canon, or any other credible sources, as to which cittas arise at cochlear implants Do you think sotavinnaana cittas arise at cochlear implants? Kind Regards Herman > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 47568 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:23am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. rjkjp1 Dear Herman and Kel, Here is a nice story from the Dhammapadaatthakatha related to this issue: http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm Verse 348 The Story of Uggasena Uggasena was a skilful acrobat. ""Then, Uggasena went back to Rajagaha, and it was proclaimed that Uggasena would publicly demonstrate his skill in seven days' time. On the seventh day, a long pole was put up and Uggasena stood on top of it. At a signal given from below he somersaulted seven times on the pole. At about this time, the Buddha saw Uggasena in his vision and knew that time was ripe for Uggasena to attain arahatship. So, he entered Rajagaha and willed that the audience should turn their attention to him instead of applauding Uggasena for his acrobatic feats. When Uggasena saw that he was being neglected and ignored, he just sat on top of the pole, feeling very discontented and depressed. The Buddha then addressed Uggasena, "Uggasena, a wise man should abandon all attachment to the khandha aggregates and strive to gain liberation from the round of rebirths." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 348. Give up the past, give up the future, give up the present. Having reached the end of existences, with a mind freed from all (conditioned things), you will not again undergo birth and decay. At the end of the discourse Uggasena, who was still on top of the pole, attained arahatship. He came down and was soon admitted to the Order by the Buddha."" The pole was said to be death-defyingly high. Yet Ugasena was able to go through all stages of insight and attain arahantship without falling off. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Kel, > > Thanks for your post. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > > My understanding of sati in this post is as > > > mindfullness. If I can refer you to post #39749 > > > > I read it and the it was about sati-sampajanna which is of > course > > different from just sati. > == > I am happy to accept that I do not know the difference. Would you be > so kind as to briefly explain a bit more. > == > > > > > constraints. I was thinking along the lines of the obligations > and > > > expectations that are "in frame" when one is interacting with > > > others as self amongst other selves. > > > > So you think moments of sati-sampajanna are kinda disorienting > > since we lose the frame of reference of self and also others? For > > every kusala citta there's a corresponding kiriya citta of > 47569 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/12/05 12:18:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... quotes Sarah as saying: I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? and replies to this by quoting the Anupada Sutta, which I agree unequivocally shows the role jhanas played in Sariputtas full awakening. I would like to add something in this regard that anticipates a possible objection: Some have doubted the truth of the Anupada Sutta, because in another sutta, MN 74, it is said that Sariputta acheieved full awakening while fanning the Buddha, and the Anupada Sutta said that this happened upon exiting "the ninth jhana" of cessation of feeling and perception. But it has been pointed out on another list that these need not be contradictory, because the meditative process discussed in the Anupada Sutta lasted over a two-week period, Sariputta had great contol over his entry and exit of jhanas, and there is no reason that he might not have entered and exited "the ninth jhana" momentarily, while in the process of fanning the Buddha. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47570 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > I would like to communicate with you about this and other things, > but that can only happen if you can write at my level without > changing your understanding. That is because I cannot write at your > level, and even if I wanted to, it would take me many many years, as > least as many years as it has taken for you to learn all these facts. > > Some more below. ---------- Dear Herman, Thanks for your reply. I will do it when I have more time. For the time being this is a response that I know you posted a message for me. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47571 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues buddhistmedi... Hi, Ven. Samahita and other DSG members - In DSG message #47550 Bhikkhu Samahita wrote : Take Home: Sila => Samadhi. Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge... Never give up! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Indeed, Ven. Samahita, with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful without an intention to be remorseful. For one who is free from remorse, joy spontaneously arises, and so on, as explained in AN IX.2, Cetana Sutta. Tep (to Jon and Howard in message # 47480) : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida) --> Dispassionate (viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). There should be no question in any Buddhist's mind how to practice in order to become consummate in virtues. Thank you very much for bringing up a very important point - although this point is discouraging to those who want an easy way out. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Dear friend Tep & all other Meditators: > Regarding requisites for Depth and Success in Meditation: > > If one, despite considerable effort within or "inside" the meditation itself, fails to make progress, reach depth, settle in stable calm or gain absorption, then one should consider the major "outside the meditation" factor: Morality: > "Are my Morality properly purified, quite purified, completely purified?", > "Do I keep the 5 precepts properly clean, quite clean, completely clean?", > "Do I keep the 8 precepts clean on each and all of the observance days?"! > > Since as said: > "And he possesses virtues that are dear to the Noble Ones, complete and perfect, spotless and pure, which are liberating, releasing, praised by the wise, uninfluenced, unbendable and favourable to concentration of mind." DN 16 > > Because: > The proximate cause of concentration is happiness. > The proximate cause of happiness is tranquillity. > The proximate cause of tranquillity is satisfaction. > The proximate cause of satisfaction is joy. > The proximate cause of joy is gladness. > The proximate cause of gladness is absence of regrets. > The proximate cause of absence of regrets is Morality! > > It is in this way that Morality (sila) gradually enables > attainment of Concentration (samadhi)... > And therefore also this reciprocal causality: > Exactly to the extent that Morality is incomplete > will Concentration also remain incomplete ... > (snipped) 47572 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - > > > In a message dated 7/12/05 12:18:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... quotes Sarah as saying: I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > and replies to this by quoting the Anupada Sutta, which I agree unequivocally shows the role jhanas played in Sariputtas full awakening. I would like to add something in this regard that anticipates a possible objection: > Some have doubted the truth of the Anupada Sutta, because in another sutta, MN 74, it is said that Sariputta acheieved full awakening >while fanning the Buddha, and the Anupada Sutta said that this >happened upon exiting "the ninth jhana" of cessation of feeling and perception. But it has been pointed out on another list that these need not be contradictory, because the meditative process discussed in the >Anupada Sutta lasted over a two-week period, Sariputta had great contol over his entry and exit of jhanas, and there is no reason that > he might not have entered and exited "the ninth jhana" momentarily, >while in the process of fanning the Buddha. > > With metta, > Howard > Dear Howard, thank you very, very much for this clean logical explanation that neatly reduces the apparent conflict between MN 74 and MN 111 to zero. You did a great job. Respectfully yours, Tep ========= 47573 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Bhante, Jon, and all) - In a message dated 7/12/05 8:44:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Ven. Samahita and other DSG members - In DSG message #47550 Bhikkhu Samahita wrote : Take Home: Sila => Samadhi. Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge... Never give up! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Indeed, Ven. Samahita, with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful without an intention to be remorseful. For one who is free from remorse, joy spontaneously arises, and so on, as explained in AN IX.2, Cetana Sutta. Tep (to Jon and Howard in message # 47480) : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida) --> Dispassionate (viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). There should be no question in any Buddhist's mind how to practice in order to become consummate in virtues. Thank you very much for bringing up a very important point - although this point is discouraging to those who want an easy way out. Respectfully, Tep ========================== I agree with the foregoing provided that the arrows (Bhante's ==>, and Tep's -->) denote only requisite conditioning, and not sufficient conditioning. In particular, if sila were sufficient for the subsequent conditions, there would be religionists of all stripes and "atheists" of all stripes, all across the world, who have attained jhanas and even awakening. I specifically take exception - please excuse me, Bhante - to understandin g "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge" literally. More than sila is required, Sir. (I realize, of course, that you know that, but I thought it important to make the point.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47574 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 7/12/05 9:05:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard, thank you very, very much for this clean logical explanation that neatly reduces the apparent conflict between MN 74 and MN 111 to zero. You did a great job. ==================== Thank you. I'd like to point out for the record, though, that this resolution didn't have its origin with me. The explanation came from someone other than me on another list. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47575 From: Nicholas Benedict Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:28am Subject: Nick in Bangkok robitusson2000 Thanks Sarah. I've been interested in Buddhism for a long time and I took refuge 3 years ago with a Tibetan lama called Dr. Akong Rinpoche. I have been doing very patchy practise over that time, mostly in the Tibetan Kagyu and Nyingma groups in Dublin, Ireland. I find it much easier and more productive when I'm part of a group which meets regularly to practise. If it's left up to me, I do very little. I moved to Bangkok last year and I know there are various retreat centres around the country which I have big plans on visiting. But what I'm looking for in Bangkok city is a group that meets regularly or a teacher who gives classes in meditation. I know there aren't any Tibetan groups in Thailand which would be my preference but I'm definitely open to the Thai Therevada tradition. It would be great to meet someone here in Thailand who knows a bit about the options here. Thanks very much for your help, Nick. <....> ... S: Why not say a little more about your background and interest in Buddhism meanwhile which will help people when they respond. How long have you lived in Bkk? <...> 47576 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:58am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Dear Herman, I think there are some old posts on transplant matter. Below is my reply to your message. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Htoo, I would like to communicate with you about this and other things, but that can only happen if you can write at my level without changing your understanding. That is because I cannot write at your level, and even if I wanted to, it would take me many many years, as least as many years as it has taken for you to learn all these facts. Some more below. == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. But your level are already high and I even think that you have more knowledge than me. I am just at the foot of a mountain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Loosely worded, the sensitive element of hearing is described as > set > in a ring with copper coloured hairs. There is also the simile of the ear sense as a crocodile that does not see on dry land, and can > sleep > only at the bottom of deep water. (Organ of Corti?) > Whatever the case, for the profoundly deaf, there is no hearing, no > matter how large their ears :-). And a cochlear implant remedies > that. > Which fact does not seem subjective, nor conceptual. Quite > paramatthic, actually :-) > Thanks for both your feedback > Kind Regards >Herman ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Herman, > Quite paramatthic?? > The descriptions were all for most normal phenomena. Examples are > sense-sensitivity or pasada ruupa that were described on the basis > of > physical organs or physical part of the body. == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Aayatana are paramattha dhamma. But cochlea is not. Nor is cochlea implant or transplant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just cochlea implant does not change any Dhamma that are always > right. > > There are cornea transplant, heart transplant etc. > > Cochlea is just a physical base for sotappasada ruupa. Sotappasada > > ruupa can never be found with 5 physical sense. So if someone > thinks > > that cochlea transplant is sotappasada then this fact indicates > > inability to see what is real. == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: I have looked and could not immediately understand what sotappasada ruupa means. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 28 ruupas. sotappasaada or sota-pasada is one of these 28 ruupas. These 28 ruupas are paramattha dhamma. Paramattha dhamma are objects of satipatthaana. Paramattha dhamma are objects of vipassana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: But I do know what hearing means . (there's hope for me :-)) And I also know that without physical organ, the relevant sense is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All most all know 'what hearing means'. There is hope. Physical sense organs are bases for arising of consciousness. Without physical sense organ, the relevant sense is not there, you are right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: I am sure that I am very incompetent at seeing what is real, but it just appears to me that the physical sense is a sine-qua-non (Latin for - without which not) for sensation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So far true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Is the ear not a physical sense organ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is. But not all physical sense organs have pasada ruupas at all time. This level is not high, I hope. There are all 5 organs in me. I have eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. When I see something, I am not hearing, smelling, tasting, touching anything. When I am not hearing, smelling, tasting, touching anything there is no pasada ruupa or hearing, smelling, tasting, touching but pasada ruupa for seeing and it is cakkuppasada or cakkhu- pasada or eye-sensitivity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Is the cochlear implant not a physical sense organ, but different to the ear, and giving different hearing than an ear? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If there is hearing there has arisen ear-consciousness. If ear- consciousness has arisen, there has already arisen sota-pasada ruupa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47577 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thank you for your question. >Dear Herman and Howard, > Just a question. > Do 'sotavinnaana cittas' arise at cochlea transplant? == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: I don't know, because 1] I don't know what sotavinnaana cittas are like ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sotavinnaana citta. Sota here means 'ear'. Vi means 'distinguishingly' 'distinctly'. Naana means 'knowledge' 'knowing'. Citta means 'consciousness'. One of the definitions of consciousness is that it is 'thoughts along with feeling' in Oxford Dictionary. Sotavinnaana citta is 'a consciousness that arises at ear distinguishingly knows at ear'. It perceives sound as its object. But as it depends on ear which is the station or the place where it works it is named as 'ear-consciousness'. It is 'consciousness to sound'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: 2] I don't know the theory of sotavinnaana cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When hear, there arises hearing-consciousness or ear-consciousness. It is sotavinnaana citta. But when noticed the state of hearing is no more just ear-consciousness. Because there have already been consctructed with idea depending on markers on object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: 3] I don't have a cochlear implant 4] There are no references in the Canon, or any other credible sources, as to which cittas arise at cochlear implants Do you think sotavinnaana cittas arise at cochlear implants? Kind Regards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beautiful question. If there arise hearing there arise ear-consciousness. The problem is to define 'hearing'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47578 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhatrue Hi Tep and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Howard, thank you very, very much for this clean logical > explanation that neatly reduces the apparent conflict between MN 74 > and MN 111 to zero. You did a great job. > > > Respectfully yours, > > > Tep > > ========= One might consider these words: Two stanzas in the Theragatha (995, 996) relate, in words ascribed to the Venerable Sariputta himself, the way in which he attained Arahatship. There he tells us: "It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#i It seems highly unlikely, but not impossible I suppose, that Ven. Sariputta could be "listening intently" to the Dhamma-preaching of the Buddha and slipping in and out of the fourth immaterial attainment. Not only that, Sariputta himself emphasized that it was his listening to the Dhamma-preaching, directly from the Buddha, which caused his release. And, unlike some, my goal isn't to devalue to role of jhana by pointing this out. Jhana is the eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path and is therefore necessary for enlightenment. According to the texts, after his ordination and prior to enlightenment, for two weeks, Sariputta was staying in a cave and practicing the jhanas (with relative ease compared to Venerable Maha Moggallana who kept falling asleep). Therefore, jhana was a conditioning factor in Ven. Sariputta's enlightenment. Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. Metta, James 47579 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/12/05 10:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. ===================== I think you may be mistaken in this. I believe that near the beginning of the sutta it speaks of a fortnight (in some translations) and a half-month (in others). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47580 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,171 philofillet Hi Sarah I see you're off on a trip, so I'll pop in and respond to this before you're on your way. (Rob K and Nina, thanks for your comments re "there must be detachment at the beginning" and Kel thanks re the listening - I'll be back to you in a few days.) > On wrong view and sth I said on a tape wheich you disagreed with. Yes, I came across it again yesterday, that people who are just accumulating clinging and wrong view would be better off not having heard anything about Buddhism in the first place. >My only > comment is that I think we underestimate the danger of wrong view and the > cultivation of it. So my comment was to the effect that I think it's > better not to hear the 'so-called' Buddha's teachings if it just leads to > the following and developing of the wrong eightfold path. Wrong practice > leads to more wrong practice, so any right view now, arises in spite of > such wrong practice in the past, not because of it. Ph; Yes, I certainly see what you mean. I also see what the woman who responded means. (I keep forgetting her name) She said that she thinks panna develops as we come across false or wrong teachings,that this interaction with wrong view might help panna to develop in a way as it learns to discriminate between right and wrong view. She said - and I'm sure we'd all agree - that there can be moments of right understanding that arise in amougst the wrong view. When A. Sujin asked if this would be "mixed view" and she said yes, there was some laughter, but I think it's a fair term. After all, none of us have right view all the time, unless we're sotapanna, right? So what is there? Moments of right view, moments of wrong view, all mixed together. Think of the sutta about the splendid lotus growing in the muck - isn't that like right view growing and emerging from wrong view in a way? If there are conditions for panna, there will be panna, whether we are engaged in wrong view or not, before it arises, maybe? But then again, I guess not. We know right view comes first, always, like the dawn before the sunrise. Yes, I see your point. And I see the other point. Wrong view, this clinging to results, it's very pervasive and I would say envelops most of the modern Buddhist world. But some people do emerge from it, like the lotus, conditions permitting. And as I said in the last post, even people who do not have the necessary conditions for panna to develop and therefore stay submerged in wrong view practices...they can benefit from the general atmosphere of harmlessness that pervades even the most adulterated form of Dhamma, I think. No big deal. I certainly see what you mean. Its safe to say that most people who get entangled in wrong view will not emerge from it. Have a great trip, and thanks again for the recorded talks, and all you've been doing here. And thanks also to Jon. The other day Naomi called him "Kamome (pr. Kah mo may) no Jonathan", which is the Japanese title for "Jonathan Livingston Seagull." She knows him especially from his introductions to each talk ("participants include...") which she says sound very solemn and urgent, like for a group of NASA and other experts getting together to discuss a plan to prevent Earth from being destroyed by a comet or something.... :) Metta, Phil 47581 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 440 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala 8 ariyaa puggala or 8 pure saints individuals have been explained in the previous post. There are 4 more individuals. They all are puthujana. Puthujanna = Puthu + janaanam Puthu means 'many' that is many kilesas and janaanam means 'cause to arise'. Puthujana are where kilesas arise. There are 4 puthujana puggala or 4 impure individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala 3. sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala 4. duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala Tihetuka means 'triple-rooted'. This means that there are 3 roots and they are alobha or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, and amoha or non-ignorance. Even though these individuals are full of kilesa and they are causing arising of may kilesa they do have the potential to attain magga naana and at least they have the potential to attain jhaana. These individuals are born with patisandhi cittas that have all 3 roots of alobha, adosa, amoha. 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala This individual is where many kilesa (puthu-kilesa) arise and they just have only 2 roots. They are alobha or non-attachment and adosa or non-aversion. But they do not have amoha or non-ignorance or panna when they are born. They will never attain magga or they will even never attain jhaana in their current life however hard they have been trying to attain magga or jhaana. 3. sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala This individual is where many kilesa arise and they do not have any root in their patisandhi citta and nor does bhavanga citta and cuti citta. These are beings born in human realm or deva beings of lower deva realm with poor deva power. When they are human beings they are like congenital blind or deaf. 4. duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala This individual is where many kilesa arise and they do not have any root in their patisandhi citta. Unlike sugati-ahetuka puthujana puggala they are not in the happy destination. They are beings in one of 4 woeful states or realms or planes of existence. In real sense there is no hell beings, no animal, no ghost, no demon but just citta, cetasika and ruupa. These duggati-ahetuka puthujana puggala are just a combination of 5 aggregates. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47582 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 7/12/05 10:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything > about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. > ===================== > I think you may be mistaken in this. I believe that near the beginning of > the sutta it speaks of a fortnight (in some translations) and a half-month > (in others). > > With metta, > Howard I could be mistaken, of course. What I was thinking is that the text reads such: "Sàriputta concentrates a fortinight uninterrupted, secluded from sensual desires and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhàna..." This doesn't make it clear to me if he was in the first jhana for a fortnight or if the entire process that follows in the sutta also occurred during a fortnight. However, if the sutta really reads that the process occurred over a half-month, as you claim some translations read, then I would be more inclined to accept the hypothesis you subscribe to. Is there ambiguity of time when translating Pali? I am inclined to believe the translation to be straightforward, but could be mistaken. Howard, what translations state a half-month instead of a fortnight? Are they available online? Metta, James 47583 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:acrobat on pole nilovg Hi Rob K, what a very telling example. He did not attain jhana first. Nina. op 12-07-2005 13:23 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...: > The Story of Uggasena ...> > The pole was said to be death-defyingly high. Yet Ugasena was able > to go through all stages of insight and attain arahantship without > falling off. 47584 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/12/05 10:51:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 7/12/05 10:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > Also, as far as I know, the Anupada Sutta doesn't mention anything > about the process lasting over a two-week period. That is conjecture. > ===================== > I think you may be mistaken in this. I believe that near the beginning of > the sutta it speaks of a fortnight (in some translations) and a half-month > (in others). > > With metta, > Howard I could be mistaken, of course. What I was thinking is that the text reads such: "Sàriputta concentrates a fortinight uninterrupted, secluded from sensual desires and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhàna..." This doesn't make it clear to me if he was in the first jhana for a fortnight or if the entire process that follows in the sutta also occurred during a fortnight. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I assumed the latter. It would be an odd reading, I think, otherwise. But, of course, it *might* be restricted to the 1st jhana. But why would this matter? If anything, I think the harmonizing of the 2 suttas would be even easier if the two weeks pertained only to the 1st jhana. I'm missing the point you are making. ----------------------------------------------- However, if the sutta really reads that the process occurred over a half-month, as you claim some translations read, then I would be more inclined to accept the hypothesis you subscribe to. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The question of whether the time period pertained only to the 1st jhana or not would still be there. I don't understand the point about a half month (which is the way the translation goes on the Dhammasukka site of Ven. Vilmalramsi's), because a fortnight = 2 weeks = a half month, isn't that so? ------------------------------------------- Is there ambiguity of time when translating Pali? I am inclined to believe the translation to be straightforward, but could be mistaken. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I guess you are referring to whether the time period "distributes" across a number of events or not. I don't know. ----------------------------------------- Howard, what translations state a half-month instead of a fortnight? Are they available online? -------------------------------------- Howard: As I say, that's on the venerable's site, and I'm assuming he used a "half a month" instead of a "fortnight" for clarification purposes. His website is as follows: http://www.dhammasukha.org ------------------------------------------------ Metta, James ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47585 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard {Ven. Samahita and all} - > Howard: I agree with the foregoing provided that the arrows (Bhante's ==>, and Tep's -->) denote only requisite conditioning, and not sufficient conditioning. > In particular, if sila were sufficient for the subsequent conditions, there > would be religionists of all stripes and "atheists" of all stripes, all across the world, who have attained jhanas and even awakening. > I specifically take exception - please excuse me, Bhante - to understanding "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge" literally. More than sila is required, Sir. (I realize, of course, that you know that, but I thought it important to make the point.) > Tep: Your reasoning is almost solid, Howard. So it seems clear that the flow diagram is not sufficient. Your reasoning goes: if there were no other required activities (such as samadhi and anupassana) other than purification of virtues, then monks who had perfect sila would automatically become arahants. The missing characteristic in the sequential flow diagram was the action of the non-linear process of fulfillment. The flow however only indicates that it only moves forward. Once the monk is purified in sila, he is automatically remorseful. Once he is remorseful, he automatically joyful, etc. This is how it works. The process of "fulfilling" virtues is not isolated: it is at the same time dependent on samadhi and panna development. In other words, while virtues are being fulfilled, the adhisila-sikkha process also induces samadhi and panna to grow long with the virtues. This is because one cannot achieve lokuttara sila without right view; and right view cannot be achieved without right effort and right mindfulness, and so on. This fullfilment process is described by the Buddha in other suttas, for example, SN XLVI.6: Kundliya sutta. In this Kundliya sutta, the Buddha said that the seven factors of enlightenment(sattabojjhanga) fulfill true knowledge and liberation (vijjavimutti); the four establishments of mindfulness fulfill sattabojjhanga; the three kinds of good conduct (tini sucaritani) fulfill the four establishments of mindfulness; and the restraint of the sense faculties(indriya samvara) fulfills tini sucaritani. Thus our Buddha emphasized the importance of indriya samvara sila as the first step on the path to liberation. Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Bhante, Jon, and all) - > > In a message dated 7/12/05 8:44:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > Hi, Ven. Samahita and other DSG members - > > In DSG message #47550 Bhikkhu Samahita wrote : > > Take Home: > Sila => Samadhi. > Jhana is impossible, if one is unclean! > Purify Morality first, and then Jhana > will spontaneously emerge... > > Never give up! > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. > > > Indeed, Ven. Samahita, with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously > remorseful without an intention to be remorseful. For one who is free > from remorse, joy spontaneously arises, and so on, as explained in AN > IX.2, Cetana Sutta. > > Tep (to Jon and Howard in message # 47480) : > > According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. > > Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> > Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing > & seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida) -- > > Dispassionate (viraga) --> Knowledge&Vision of release (vimutti). > > There should be no question in any Buddhist's mind how to practice in > order to become consummate in virtues. > > Thank you very much for bringing up a very important point - although > this point is discouraging to those who want an easy way out. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > ========================== > > With metta, > Howard > 47586 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > Howard: > The question of whether the time period pertained only to the 1st jhana > or not would still be there. I don't understand the point about a half month > (which is the way the translation goes on the Dhammasukka site of Ven. > Vilmalramsi's), because a fortnight = 2 weeks = a half month, isn't that so? Oops, yeah you are correct. I was thinking that fortnight was the first period of the night, as described in other suttas. Not a word I come across a lot. ;-) Looked on dictionary.com and found that it means 14 days, 2 weeks. So, I guess there is some validity to your argument. What brings doubt into my mind is that the Buddha would describe Sariputta's enlightenment entirely differently than Sariputta described it. (Not to mention how the Anupada Sutta describes jhanas in a manner entirely different from other suttas, commentaries, and ancient treatises). Metta, James 47587 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: Jhana and Lay Disciple christine_fo... Hello Kelvin, all, Yes, it has been posted before. If you scroll right down to the bottom of the article - you will come across the source - where Bhikkhu Bodhi first posted this article in portions. Or rather - where he first sent it to Sarah to post in bite size pieces for discussion on Dhammastudygroup. Binh appears to have collated it into one article and put it up on the Buddhasasana site. > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm "Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup , 14-30 June 2004." metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi All, > > Apologies if this has been posted but I happened to run into it > and it made for interesting read. > > - kel > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > Conclusions: > (1) Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling > enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes > either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the > texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream- entry -- > the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being > proficient in the jhânas. Though some suttas include the jhânas in > the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done > simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition > employed by the Nikâyas and need not be seen as having categorical > implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring > to the supramundane jhâna arisen within the supramundane path. > Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another > type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the > object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including > degrees of concentration short of the jhânas. > > (2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble > Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhânas. This need not > be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners > already possess jhâna before they reach stream-entry. The formula > for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually > attain the jhânas in the course of developing the path to its > culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in > recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path > and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhânas > included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the > supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still > leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must > develop the mundane jhânas in the preliminary phase of their > practice. > > (3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply > that they do not possess the jhânas as meditative attainments which > they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the > lower two levels may have jhânic attainments, the latter are not > declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. > > (4) Several non-returners in the Nikâyas claim to possess all four > jhânas, and according to the Mahâmâluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at > least the first jhâna is part of the practice leading to the > eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that > stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non- > returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first > jhâna as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their > status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, > generally will not strive to attain the jhânas. Instead, they settle > for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within > a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial > worlds. > > (5) As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the > main obstacles to jhânic attainment, they should face no major > problems in entering the jhânas. The non-returner is similar to the > ordinary jhâna-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form > realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free > from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the > sensuous realm. > > (6) Although in the Nikâyas the tie between the two attainments -- > the jhânas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an > open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several > suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning > the jhânas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who > gains all four jhânas with one who practises more austere types of > meditation that do not typically lead to the jhânas. 47588 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/12/05 3:27:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: What brings doubt into my mind is that the Buddha would describe Sariputta's enlightenment entirely differently than Sariputta described it. (Not to mention how the Anupada Sutta describes jhanas in a manner entirely different from other suttas, commentaries, and ancient treatises). ====================== Yes. I agree that this issue is problematical. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47589 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - From what you say below, I think we are in agreement on this matter. What I thought most required a comment was Bhante's saying "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously merge." Without further commentary, that has the sound of lockstep causality, with perfect morality being all that is required for a "spontaneous" emergence of jhana. I think that is a misleading formulation and requires clarification. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/12/05 3:18:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard {Ven. Samahita and all} - > Howard: I agree with the foregoing provided that the arrows (Bhante's ==>, and Tep's -->) denote only requisite conditioning, and not sufficient conditioning. > In particular, if sila were sufficient for the subsequent conditions, there > would be religionists of all stripes and "atheists" of all stripes, all across the world, who have attained jhanas and even awakening. > I specifically take exception - please excuse me, Bhante - to understanding "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously emerge" literally. More than sila is required, Sir. (I realize, of course, that you know that, but I thought it important to make the point.) > Tep: Your reasoning is almost solid, Howard. So it seems clear that the flow diagram is not sufficient. Your reasoning goes: if there were no other required activities (such as samadhi and anupassana) other than purification of virtues, then monks who had perfect sila would automatically become arahants. The missing characteristic in the sequential flow diagram was the action of the non-linear process of fulfillment. The flow however only indicates that it only moves forward. Once the monk is purified in sila, he is automatically remorseful. Once he is remorseful, he automatically joyful, etc. This is how it works. The process of "fulfilling" virtues is not isolated: it is at the same time dependent on samadhi and panna development. In other words, while virtues are being fulfilled, the adhisila-sikkha process also induces samadhi and panna to grow long with the virtues. This is because one cannot achieve lokuttara sila without right view; and right view cannot be achieved without right effort and right mindfulness, and so on. This fullfilment process is described by the Buddha in other suttas, for example, SN XLVI.6: Kundliya sutta. In this Kundliya sutta, the Buddha said that the seven factors of enlightenment(sattabojjhanga) fulfill true knowledge and liberation (vijjavimutti); the four establishments of mindfulness fulfill sattabojjhanga; the three kinds of good conduct (tini sucaritani) fulfill the four establishments of mindfulness; and the restraint of the sense faculties(indriya samvara) fulfills tini sucaritani. Thus our Buddha emphasized the importance of indriya samvara sila as the first step on the path to liberation. Kind regards, Tep /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47590 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:54am Subject: Re: Fwd: A Fun Trap [was Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta] ksheri3 Hi Kelvin, I am not clever, as a student of buddhism you are running away from the most basic of truths: IGNORANCE. Just because you are ignorant at the moment does not mean that at the next moment you may see rationale. In your case you study the belief structure from the point of view of the traditionalist and there's nothing wrong with that. I study from the Vajrayana (tantric buddhism) perspective which is a blend of Indian tantraism and Mahayana buddhism. May Tara be kind to us all. keep trying and follow your way. If you recognize things I speak of then I'm glad I could help but if you don't then I don't see how this can mean that are wrong in your study! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Tep and Colette, > > > Tep: You are a clever woman. I like your comments very much > > She must be too clever for me since I haven't been able to figure > out her posts. My background is limited to Theravada Buddhism in > order to understand most of the references easily. > > - kel 47591 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:11am Subject: Airborne: Death from Above? ksheri3 Hi Evan, butting in? I think not! This is a forum, the more points of view then maybe there's a chance for the most enlightenment. Maybe it's that kind of attitude, where you believe yourself to be intruding on another's debate, discussion, etc, that is the downfall of the USA since you are shying away from the fray, pulling away, excluding yourself, you're not actively participating in the debate, which is a very prominent characteristic of Generation X here in the states. They are consumed with their Self. It is as though they glorify the ego and place it as a bauble or trinket which is to be insured for loss, theft, or damage. <...> Personally, Evan, I think your statement has done both Nina and myself great value since now we won't get in eachother's face over tiny little differences. Your opinion is directly to the point and a welcomed statement. Glad to have you around this insane assylum! CAre to go watch ice melt or maybe grass grow? LOL toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > > Here I go again butting in. > > > ------- <...> > Let me see if I can elaborate on this issue a little more... > > What is wholesome? That which steers one towards liberation. > > What is unwholesome? That which steers one away from liberation. > > Therefore, one can go around killing living beings or lying to other > beings in order to hurt them, or taking what is not theirs, however, the > mind states which enable one to take part in that sort of behaviour are > the mind states that hinder one's development on the path. You can call > them kusala/akusala, wholesome/unwholesome, good/evil, etc but when it > comes down to it the outcome is whether they lead to liberation or to > more delusion. <...> 47592 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! ksheri3 Hi Evan, again, You've got some good perspectives! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > > Sorry for Butting in here but I can't help myself. > > > N: Talking about braincells: this is science. This is different > from the > > Dhamma and does not have the aim of leading to liberating > understanding and > > detachment. If we mix it does not help to understand the Dhamma. > > colette: UNTRUE, I think that if we can find ways to rationalize our > behavior and the behavior of others then it should be more than > consoling and benefitial to society and humanity if we can find links, > similarities, the TRUTH, of this mystical search. If we are stuck with > either science or theology to explain our existance as well as the past > and future then you've already achieved SHUNYATAT, SUNYATA, EMPTINESS, > nothing, no meanings whatsoever. > > ******************************** > Well, it also has to be realised that there are different focuses. > Science does what it does for various reasons such as monetary gain, > pure intellectual pursuit (ie solve this problem purely because it's > there), etc. None of the aims of science is to liberate the mind. The > Dhamma as expounded perfectly by the Lord Buddha, however, has only > liberation as the aim. Certainly there will be overlap, I don't expect > any aspect of the dhamma to contradict scientific investigation but > science cannot cover all that the dhamma teaches and the dhamma does not > concern itself with questions whose answers are not conducive to the > attainment of the liberation of mind. colette: SOMEBODY HIT THE BRAKES! This is an accepted fact but isn't ignorance an accepted fact and the search for enlightenment, now where does one begin in this search? I meana does it come when the IRS says that you've reached a certain income bracket and therefore must persue the quest for the Holy Grail as a Monty Python character or does it say pursue enlightenment as a limp pc. of pasta. I mean if ignorance is an accepted maxim then why would there be a need to argue if it wasn't for the ego which people seem to deny because they dellusion that money talks. BEware, one day since I get that excuse so much from everybody, one day there will come a time when people will beg me for things and I will only be able to tell them not to interupt my conversation with money. -------------------- As for theology, it has nothing to > do with reality but is as a result of someone's vivid imagination so I > won't even bother discussing this further as having any relevence to > Buddhism or science. colette: surely you jest! Pishaw. ;)) have you ever run into a book called Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel? Now there's some kinky characters huh? out there in the mountains of Tibet they can go at it. Theology and scinece are like oil and vinegar. They are both in competition for "controling the massess" i.e. crowd control. Aurgh matey's I've gotta be off. toodles, colette <....> 47593 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - I truly appreciate your clear and convincing explanation of the vitakka cetasika that there is only one vitaka, inside the 1st jhana or outside it. You wrote, "In order to abandon this factor he must have a precise understanding of it, but he does not understand it as non-self." -- did you mean to say : "..., but he must undestand it as non-self" ? Or, did you mean "but he does not yet understand it as non-self?" -------------------------- Nina: In vipassana the object is the characteristics of nama and rupa appearing at the present moment, one at a time. The aim is to see them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Tep: It is a little confusing here. Did you mean " the aim is to see nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa"? If you did, then should the first sentence be " In vipassana the objects are the nama and rupa appearing ..."? Words are funny. They are slippery, sometimes. I am trying to hold your words steady so that my understanding can properly work on them. --------------------------- N: The word thinking is confusing. It is the cetasika vitakka accompanying many cittas but not every citta. As a jhanafactor it has a task different from vitakka in vipassana. Their objects are different and also their aims. But in both cases they have to accompany pannaa, respectively pannaa of the level of samatha and pannaa of the level of vipassanaa. Tep: Up to now, it is clear that 1) the object of vitakka in samatha is different than the object of vitakka in vipassana, 2) the aim of vitakka in the 1st jhana is not the same as that of vipassana, and 3) wisdom of samatha is different (lower?) than wisdom of vipassana. But I am unable to relate these three observations to explain "thinking" in both cases. Please continue to explain. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 12-07-2005 01:59 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...:> > > Tep: So, right thinking is another name of samma-sankappa, and right view(samma-ditthi) + right thinking = panna-khandha. > ---- > N: riight. > ------- >(snipped) > T: Another implication is that samma-sankappa is exactly the same as 'vitakka' as a jhana factor, or "thinking" as "an essential factor of > vipassana" is not the ordinary thinking we do while reading or listening. > -------- > N: The word thinking is confusing. It is the cetasika vitakka accompanying many cittas but not every citta. As a jhanafactor it has a task different from vitakka in vipassana. Their objects are different and also their aims. > But in both cases they have to accompany paññaa, respectively paññaa of the level of samatha and paññaa of the level of vipassanaa. > > Nina. 47594 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Your comments are appropriate. I agree with you that the "lockstep causality" with perfect sila may quite likely lead to misunderstanding. I'll be glad to hear what the Venerable thinks. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > From what you say below, I think we are in agreement on this matter. What I thought most required a comment was Bhante's saying "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously merge." Without further commentary, that has the sound of lockstep causality, with perfect morality being all that is required for a "spontaneous" emergence of jhana. I think that is a misleading formulation and requires clarification. > > With metta, > Howard > (snipped) 47595 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. lbidd2 Nina: "Through right understanding of this cetasika we come to understand that the circumstances of life or other people are not the real cause of dosa. The real cause is within ourselves: we cling to pleasant sense objects and when we experience an unpleasant object, dosa is likely to arise. So long as the latent tendency of dosa has not been eradicated it arises. Only the non-returner who does not cling any more to sense pleasures has eradicated dosa." Hi Nina, Can we say definitively that unpleasant feeling plus latent tendencies conditions the arising of dosa, in the same way that pleasant or neutral feeling plus latent tendencies conditions the arising of tanha (craving) in dependent arising? Larry 47596 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations: a refuse heep! Evan_Stamato... Colette, Ignorance to science is lack of knowledge. This is filled by investigation which is an infinite pursuit not conducive to peace but leading to frustration. Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and cessation. It is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also were able to attain some of the path and fruits. Now, as to theology: I hope you haven't seen the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding because you will laugh when you read the following. Theology is derived from 2 Greek words - Theo meaning God and Logia meaning discussion. So it is a discussion of God. That is why I dismissed theology as having any relevence to any Buddhist topic. As for the book you mention, no I have not read it but I assume from its title that it discusses mythical Tibetan characters. That's fine but I don't think they would be revered as Gods. The Buddha is called a teacher of gods and men (men meaning women as well of course) but I prefer to interpret that as being deities or beings from higher planes of existence. God in the western world implies a creator god which is quite definitely refuted by the Buddha. Some people take the deity discourses as being fact, some consider them to be a means to deliver a message and others reserve their judgement until they observe these beings for themselves. That is fine and whichever path you take is up to your own preference. None of these paths detracts from the Buddhist message. With Metta, Evan colette: SOMEBODY HIT THE BRAKES! This is an accepted fact but isn't ignorance an accepted fact and the search for enlightenment, now where does one begin in this search? I meana does it come when the IRS says that you've reached a certain income bracket and therefore must persue the quest for the Holy Grail as a Monty Python character or does it say pursue enlightenment as a limp pc. of pasta. I mean if ignorance is an accepted maxim then why would there be a need to argue if it wasn't for the ego which people seem to deny because they dellusion that money talks. BEware, one day since I get that excuse so much from everybody, one day there will come a time when people will beg me for things and I will only be able to tell them not to interupt my conversation with money. -------------------- As for theology, it has nothing to > do with reality but is as a result of someone's vivid imagination so I > won't even bother discussing this further as having any relevence to > Buddhism or science. colette: surely you jest! Pishaw. ;)) have you ever run into a book called Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel? Now there's some kinky characters huh? out there in the mountains of Tibet they can go at it. Theology and scinece are like oil and vinegar. They are both in competition for "controling the massess" i.e. crowd control. 47597 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard/Tep, What I think Venerable Samahita is refereing to is that if one does purify virtue, the 5 hindrances will not arise. One will easily and spontaneously be able to enter jhana. After all the jhanas are conditional. If one creates the conditions for jhanas to arise they will do so easily. My 2c worth. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2005 10:02 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Hi, Howard - Your comments are appropriate. I agree with you that the "lockstep causality" with perfect sila may quite likely lead to misunderstanding. I'll be glad to hear what the Venerable thinks. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > From what you say below, I think we are in agreement on this matter. What I thought most required a comment was Bhante's saying "Purify Morality first, and then Jhana will spontaneously merge." Without further commentary, that has the sound of lockstep causality, with perfect morality being all that is required for a "spontaneous" emergence of jhana. I think that is a misleading formulation and requires clarification. > > With metta, > Howard > (snipped) 47598 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Larry: "As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath rupas vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling?" Nina: "There are many kinds of cittas arising when there is not mindfulness of breath. There may be: kusala cittas with mindfulness of another object, akusala cittas, vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas. I do not understand your point." Hi Nina, What is the difference between mindfulness of breath rupas and body-door consciousness of breath rupas? Larry 47599 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - In a message dated 7/12/05 8:17:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi Howard/Tep, What I think Venerable Samahita is refereing to is that if one does purify virtue, the 5 hindrances will not arise. One will easily and spontaneously be able to enter jhana. After all the jhanas are conditional. If one creates the conditions for jhanas to arise they will do so easily. My 2c worth. With Metta, Evan ===================== I readily admit, even proclaim, that the calm arising from consistent, though not necessarily perfect, moral action is requisite for entering jhana. It is a *major* and *essential* condition! I'm just maintaining that it is not sufficient. There are many, many moral people in the world, and few of them are jhana adepts. Some other conditions needed are regular solitary meditation practice, exertion of right effort [Even with perfect behavior, the inclination towards akusala is present even in lesser ariyans, and so constant vigilance is required], and cultivation of mindfulness, focus, and clarity of attention during day-to-day living. There is much to do, and being "good", while essential, is not the whole story. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47600 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard, Perfecting the virtues is quite different from being a moral person. Morality in "normal" society is a very lax term when compared to the definition of the Buddhist virtue. The section on virtue in the Vissuddhimagga finishes with an analysis of the ascetic practices. This is a far deeper practice than just being a moral person in society. In fact there would be not a single person in western society who practices virtue to that level. It requires great effort and energy to be constantly aware of the most minor transgressions in virtue. Developing the perfection of virtue would therefore develop right mindfulness and right effort. This is another wonderful example of how many factors are interrelated. Develop one and by default a number of other factors deveop also. So, in conclusion, being "good" is not sufficient but perfecting virtue is. With Metta, Evan ===================== I readily admit, even proclaim, that the calm arising from consistent, though not necessarily perfect, moral action is requisite for entering jhana. It is a *major* and *essential* condition! I'm just maintaining that it is not sufficient. There are many, many moral people in the world, and few of them are jhana adepts. Some other conditions needed are regular solitary meditation practice, exertion of right effort [Even with perfect behavior, the inclination towards akusala is present even in lesser ariyans, and so constant vigilance is required], and cultivation of mindfulness, focus, and clarity of attention during day-to-day living. There is much to do, and being "good", while essential, is not the whole story. With metta, Howard 47601 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - In a message dated 7/12/05 9:49:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi Howard, Perfecting the virtues is quite different from being a moral person. Morality in "normal" society is a very lax term when compared to the definition of the Buddhist virtue. The section on virtue in the Vissuddhimagga finishes with an analysis of the ascetic practices. This is a far deeper practice than just being a moral person in society. In fact there would be not a single person in western society who practices virtue to that level. It requires great effort and energy to be constantly aware of the most minor transgressions in virtue. Developing the perfection of virtue would therefore develop right mindfulness and right effort. This is another wonderful example of how many factors are interrelated. Develop one and by default a number of other factors deveop also. So, in conclusion, being "good" is not sufficient but perfecting virtue is. With Metta, Evan =========================== Well, this now sounds like viryually mastering the entire 8-fold noble path, which in fact is far more than one neds to enter4 the jhanas. But, in any case, I just don't think that a short statement to the effect that perfecting virtue enables spontaeous entry to the jhanas. That was my point - the way the matter was put. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47602 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues Evan_Stamato... Hi Howard, Now I understand your point. I guess even the Buddha did that. He would make a short statement and left it to other Bhikkhus to elaborate on it. With Metta, Evan =========================== Well, this now sounds like viryually mastering the entire 8-fold noble path, which in fact is far more than one neds to enter4 the jhanas. But, in any case, I just don't think that a short statement to the effect that perfecting virtue enables spontaeous entry to the jhanas. That was my point - the way the matter was put. With metta, Howard 47603 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! / Consummation in Virtues upasaka_howard Hi again, Evan - In a message dated 7/12/05 10:36:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Well, this now sounds like viryually mastering the entire 8-fold noble path, which in fact is far more than one neds to enter4 the jhanas. But, in any case, I just don't think that a short statement to the effect that perfecting virtue enables spontaeous entry to the jhanas. That was my point - the way the matter was put. With metta, Howard =========================== Just checking to see whether or not you were able to decipher the preceding spelling-impaired gibberish of mine! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47604 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:35pm Subject: Determination is Decisive ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Resolute Determination is the Eighth Mental Perfection: Only determination can completely fulfill the other mental perfections! It's characteristic is an unwavering decision, it's function is to overcome it's opposites, & it's manifestation is unfaltering persistence in this task... The proximate cause of determination is strong willpower to succeed! Only the vigour of resolute determination lifts any praxis to perfection... When the Future Buddha turned his back to the trunk of the Bodhi tree, then he right there made this mighty decision: 'Let just the blood & flesh of this body dry up & let the skin & sinews fall from the bones. I will not leave this seat before having attained the absolute supreme Enlightenment!' So determined did he invincibly seat himself, which not even 100 earthquakes could make him waver from. Jataka Nidana A female lay follower (Upasika) at the time of the Buddha kept the precepts, comprehended the nature of impermanence, the consequent fragility of the body and thereby won stream-entry (Sotapanna). After passing away, she re-arised as the favourite attendant of Sakka, the king of Gods. Reviewing her own merit, she remembered her prior admonition to herself: 'Let this body break up as it may, herein will not be any excuse or relaxation of the effort...!!!' Whose mind is like a rock, unwavering, immovable, without a trace of lust of urging towards the attractions, without a trace of aversion of pushing away the repulsive, from what, can such a refined mind ever suffer ? Udana IV - 4 Using the tools of Faith, Morality, Effort, Determination, Meditation and true Understanding of this Dhamma, one gradually perfect first knowledge & then behavior. So equipped & aware, one may eliminate all of this great heap of suffering once and for all ... Dhammapada 144 My mind is firm like a rock, unattached to sensual things, no shaking in the midst of a world, where all is decaying. My mind has been thus well developed, so how can suffering ever touch me? Theragatha 194 The four determinations: One should not neglect the Dhamma, One should guard well the Truth, One should be devoted to Withdrawal, and one should train only for Peace. Majjhima Nikaya 140 What is being determined for right Motivation ? The decision for being motivated by withdrawal, The decision for being motivated by good-will, The decision for being motivated by harmlessness: This is being determined for right Motivation. Samyutta Nikaya XLV 8 Fearing being predestined for Hell if he became a King, who had to punish criminals violently, the Bodhisatta determined not to show any intelligence, and play dump, deaf and cripple for sixteen years, only showing his abilities, when he was on the verge of being buried alive! This was his ultimate perfection of resolute determination... The Basket of Conduct: Cariyapitaka ___________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47605 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 0:21am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 247 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness (u) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch14- Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness contd] Questions i How many akusala cittas are accompanied by ignorance? ii Why is the manifestation of ignorance “causing blindness”? iii Of what is moha ignorant? iv Can ignorance experience an object? v What is the difference between hiri, shamelessness and anottappa, recklessness? vi Why does one not see, at the moment of akusala citta, that akusala is impure and why does one not fear its danger? vii When we enjoy nature is there restlessness? viii Why is understanding a necessary factor not only for the development of insight but also for the development of samatha? ix Can restlessness experience an object? ***** [Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Restlessness finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 47606 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:39am Subject: Htoo's recent posts sarahprocter... Hi Htoo & all, I've just caught up on my reading of your recent DTs and other posts addressed to 'Dhamma Friends' in general. I think they're all excellent. Well done! They seem to get better and better. For those who skip the technical ones, I particularly recommend #47513 (DT437), especially those who still wonder if there are people or for those who would like to read a clear introduction to the abhidhamma. Also, #47521, (DT438) on the 12 individuals is very well set out. I also like the ones on jhanas, kamma, counting beads(;-)), roots and #47371 should be helpful for those like Larry who were recently discussing prompted and unprompted cittas. I find it most helpful to consider these as strong and weak cittas. Htoo refers here to the terms 'ukkattha kamma' and 'omaka kamma' for greater and lesser kamma, with ukkattha not needing to be prompted. Many thanks Htoo. Metta, Sarah ======== 47607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. nilovg Hi Larry, op 13-07-2005 02:13 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: >....So long as the latent tendency of dosa has not been > eradicated it arises. Only the non-returner who does not cling any more > to sense pleasures has eradicated dosa." L: Can we say definitively that unpleasant feeling plus latent tendencies > conditions the arising of dosa, in the same way that pleasant or neutral > feeling plus latent tendencies conditions the arising of tanha (craving) > in dependent arising? ------ N: We have to differentiate the conditioning factors of the D.O. and the latent tendencies that condition the arising of akusala cittas. As to D.O. this teaches the conditions for being in the cycle. For teaching purposes specific dhammas have been selected, some of which are conascent conditions (contact and feeling) and some are not conascent. Feeling is a link in the D.O. but feeling is not a latent tendency. As to the latent tendencies, there are seven latent tendencies: sense desire (kåma-råga), aversion (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for existence (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). Thus, feeling is not a latent tendency. A latent tendency is accumulated in the citta and it is a latent tendency in the sense of being unabandoned. Alatent tendency does not arise with citta, but it conditions the arising of akusala cittas. The pleasant and indifferent feeling that accompanies citta rooted in attachment are conditioned by the latent tendency of sense desire. The unpleasant feeling that accompanies akusala citta rooted in aversion is conditioned by the latent tendency of aversion. I translated from the Thai study of the Yamaka on this subject: Nina. 47608 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 13-07-2005 02:19 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Larry: "As for vipakacittas, is non-mindful consciousness of breath > rupas vipakacitta? What about non-mindful consciousness of feeling?" > > Nina: "There are many kinds of cittas arising when there is not > mindfulness of > breath. There may be: kusala cittas with mindfulness of another object, > akusala cittas, vipaakacittas, kiriyacittas. > I do not understand your point." --------- L: What is the difference between mindfulness of breath rupas and body-door > consciousness of breath rupas? ------ N: I think you mean: body-consciousness which is vipaakacitta? This can only experience tangible object, thus, hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. The kusala citta with mindfulness of breath, here we have to differentiate samatha and vipassana. In samatha the yogavacara is mindful of the hardness etc. thus of tangible object, with the purpose to develop calm to the degree of jhaana. He needs accomplished sati sampajaññaa (sati and paññaa) as the Visuddhimagga explains: strong mindfulness is needed. As we have seen, the anapanasati is included in the Application of Mindfulness of the Body, and here the yogavacara also develops vipassana, in order to see the Body in the Body. The Co. explains that he has to develop all stages of vipassana. It explains that he has to be mindful of the four great elements and the derived rupas. He has to see them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Nina. 47609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, op 13-07-2005 01:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > You wrote, "In order to abandon this factor he must have a precise > understanding of it, but he does not understand it as non-self." -- did > you mean to say : "..., but he must undestand it as non-self" ? Or, did > you mean "but he does not yet understand it as non-self?" > -------------------------- N: he does not understand it as non-self, because the understanding of anatta is not the purpose of samatha. ---------- > Nina: In vipassana the object is the characteristics of nama and rupa > appearing at the present moment, one at a time. The aim is to see > them as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. > > Tep: Did you mean " the aim is to see nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa"? If you did, then should the first sentence be " In vipassana the objects are the nama and rupa > appearing ..."? > --------------------------- N: It is not quite the same. Ruupa is experienced in anapanasati samaadhi, it appears, but in samatha the purpose is not to penetrate its characteristic of anatta. ----------- > Tep: Up to now, it is clear that 1) the object of vitakka in samatha is > different than the object of vitakka in vipassana, 2) the aim of vitakka in > the 1st jhana is not the same as that of vipassana, and 3) wisdom of > samatha is different (lower?) than wisdom of vipassana. But I am > unable to relate these three observations to explain "thinking" in both > cases. Please continue to explain. ------ N: That is right. Vitakka is often translated as applied thought. It 'hits' or 'touches' the object experienced by citta and the accompanying cetasikas. It assists citta in cognizing an object. It accompanies all sense sphere cittas, except the sense-cognitions. Seeing sees visible object and it does not need vitakka. In samatha vitakka hits or touches the meditation subject again and again and thereby assists sati sampajaññaa of samatha so that calm can develop. In vipassana vitakka hits or touches the nama and rupa that appears through one of the six doors, so that right understanding of nama and rupa can develop in the different stages of insight. The aim of samatha is calm, temporary freedom from defilements, detachment from sense objects. Also in samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome by the jhanafactors. The aim of vipassana is the eradication of wrong view and of all other defilements. Paññaa has to realize nama and rupa as they are. This leads to detachment from nama and rupa. Is there anything else I can add? Nina. 47610 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, (Nina, Kel & all), We were discussing whether lokuttara cittas can arise without sammasankappa when the higher jhanas are used as basis. Nina gave a quote from the Vism Tiika to support this and I gave one from Sammohavinodani: S:> Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Truths, 566: <...> „« "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the second > jhaana is of the second jhaana. Here the path factors are seven.* > > "That which arises in one employing insight after emerging from the third > jhaana is of the third jhaana; but here the path factors are seven and the > enlightenment factors six.** > > "So also from one emerging from the fourth jhaana up to one emerging from > the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception." > > footnotes: > *"Owing to absence of sa"nkappa,since vitakka is absent in the second > jhaana." > **"Through absence of piiti in the third jhaana." „« **** „« S: I came across another quote to support this in the same text (1537) recently too. It concludes as follows: „« „« ¡§....Thus this rapture awakening factor which is without applied and sustained thought is excluded from the sense sphere and from the fine-material sphere and from the immaterial sphere; thus it is expounded as only that which belongs to the supramundane which has been produced.¡¨ Htoo, just before you ¡¥went off air¡¦, you wrote: „« „« ..... --- htootintnaing wrote: > I read all what you wrote. Nina felt happy with your message. But my > belief is that > > whatever sukkhavipassaka or jhaanalaabhi not using jhaana as the base > for insight or jhaanalaabhi using jhaana as the base for insight.. > at magga kaala all 8 path factors do arise. This is my belief. ... S: Well, we¡¦re only talking about jhaanalaabhi using jhaana as base for insight. The texts seem to be rather clear that this is not always the case and that lokuttara jhana cittas are then accompanied only by the jhana factors of the stage of jhana just attained. Now to your points .... > 1. sukkhavipassaka matter is clear that there are all 8 path-factors. > > 2. jhaanalaabhi who did not use jhaana as the base for insight also > had all 8 path factors. Again this is no doubt. > > 3. jhaanalaabhi, who used jhaana as the base for insight > > when in jhaana say 5th jhaana or aruupa jhaana there was no vitakka. > So there is no jhaana-vitakka. He would be basing jhaana. But at exit > when he does retrospection (paccavakkhana naana) > > there DID arise vitakka. Without vitakka retrospection can never be > done. ... S: No one questions this. No problem. .... <...> > BBBMPUAGMPPPBBBBB > > This is magga vithi vara. Manodvaravajjana does have vitakka. P is > parikamma (vutthaana-gaaminii vipassanaa naana) and it is also with > vitakka. U is upacaara mahakusala citta (vutthaana-gaaminii > vipassanaa naana). It is also with vitakka. A is anuloma. > <...> > G is gotrabhu mahakusala citta and it is a lineage-chaning citta and > it is followed by magga citta. Gotrabhu is also with vitakka. . ... S: Leaving aside parikamma which I believe does not always needed, I assume this is correct.. .... > While all foregoing javana cittas have vitakka why magga citta not > have vitakka? ... S: I think it¡¦s exactly the same as in the jhana process when you have BBBMPUAGJJJBBB, for example Only the JJJ jhana cittas are accompanied by the required jhana factors, dropping vitakka and vicara when they are unnecessary for the other factors to perform their functions. So, I assume that in the case of the magga cittas (when higher jhanas are used as basis), do not need these mental factors either. They are simply not necessary for the task of (in this case) realization and eradication of defilements by pa~n~naa. The vitakka is not necessary to support the pa~n~naa. Just my speculation here. .... > There is no jhaana-vitakka at that time. Yes. But there does arise > magga-vitakka which is samma-sankappa. > > That is why The Buddha preached to first 5 disciples that there are 8 > path factors. .... S: 8 path factors to be developed and in general, 8 path factors which are used to realize nibbana and eradicate defilements. I¡¦ll see if A.Sujin has more to add when I see her and maybe you and Kel can check with your elderly Burmese teachers. I don¡¦t think you are correct here. I agree it¡¦s a curious and interesting point and as I wrote before, I think it has significance for the point about whether the jhanas were always used as basis for enlightenment for the various jhanalabhi as is sometimes suggested. As I wrote: > S: Indeed the Vism. passage (XX1, 112) clearly differentiated between a) the path arisen in a sukkha-vipassaka (dry-insight worker), b) that arisen in 'one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made jhana the basis for insight', and c)'the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight' and so on. > > Following on from that passage, the text(113) also refers to the seven path factors when 'paths are made to arise using the second, third, and fourth jhanas in the fivefold reckoning as the basis for insight'. It stresses that whether there then be four, three or two jhana factors, 'in each case, however, the path factors number seven...'< Metta, Sarah p.s See 'Suvey of Paramattha Dhammas', by A.Sujin, translated by Nina - chapters on 'The Development of Samatha' and 'The Factors leading to Enlightenment'. ================= 47611 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:12am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassanaa and their implications ( 04 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors (bojjhanga) There are 7 bojjanga dhamma or factors of enlightenment. Bo means 'know' and here it means 'bodhi-naana'. Anga means 'limb' or parts. So bodhi-anga or bojjhanga means 'limbs of enlightenment'. So bojjhanga means 'enlightenment factors. 1. sati-sam-bojjhanga (mindfulness factor of enlightenment) 2. dhammavicaya-sam-bojjhanga(investigation of phenomena factor) 3. piiti-sam-bojjhanga (joy factor) 4. passaddhi-sam-bojjhanga (tranquility factor) 5. viiriya-sam-bojjhanga (effort factor) 6. samaadhi-sam-bojjhanga (concentration factor) 7. upekkhaa-sam-bojjhanga (equanimity factor) There are 4 contemplations on each bojjhanga or enlightenment factor. 1. this is such factor that exist right now. 2. there is not such factor exist right now. 3. this factor arise because of wise fulfilment (wise attention) 4. this factor is perfected and no more need to fulfil. (magga) These dhammas are not simple things. They just arise when staying in satipatthaana. The last contemplation is for those who just develop path-knowledge. But for puthujana they can contemplate with learned knowledge. As there are 7 factors there are 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors. So far 25 contemplations on hindrances, 15 contemplations on aggregates, 36 contemplations on sense-bases and 28 contemplations on enlightenment factors have been talked. So there have been 25 + 15 + 36 + 28 = 104 contemplations among 108 contemplations of Dhammaanupassana satipatthaana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47612 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, (Nina, Kel & all), > We were discussing whether lokuttara cittas can arise without > sammasankappa when the higher jhanas are used as basis. > Metta, > Sarah > p.s See 'Suvey of Paramattha Dhammas', by A.Sujin, translated by Nina - >chapters on 'The Development of Samatha' and 'The Factors leading to > Enlightenment'. ================= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, When I have time I will reply this message. I like your example back to me. That is jhaana-vithi-vara. It seems making sense. But I think, personally, jhaana are not like magga. For the first time attainment of jhana there always arise only a single jhana citta and it is immedicately followed by bhavanga cittas. So before one become a jhana-labhii (jhana-owner, jhana-holder, jhana- attainer) there has to run a series called jhana-vithi-vara. All the preceeding javana cittas may have vitakka while jhana when it is 2nd jhana does not include any vitakka. But in that kind of vithi vara vittakkas in preceeding maha-kusala cittas are something like lineage-changing consciousness. This applies to all javana just before jhana citta without vitakka. Regarding magga cittas, there are preceeding paccavakkhana vithi varas or retrospection on foregoing jhana. All these are done with cittas with vitakka. In magga-vithi-vara all preceeding javana cittas have vitakka. They all would have the power of samma-sankappa. But magga- cittas are only cittas that have perfect samma-sankappa. I think I may be stubborn in this matter of samma-sankappa and lokuttara jhaana magga-cittas. When I have a chance to enquire regarding this I would try to approach someone elder and ask them. With respect, Htoo Naing 47613 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 0:09am Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ! bhikkhu_ekamuni Somebody: >perfect sila may quite likely lead to misunderstanding. IMHO perfect sila never lead to any misunderstanding! : - ] 47614 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:44pm Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Tep Sastri wrote: >with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful With pure Morality one becomes free of remorse and regrets. This freedom produces joy. Being remorseful leads to worry. : - ] 47615 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Sila as neccessary but not sufficient condition for Samadhi bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Howard: I agree in that Sila is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for Samadhi. However as this indispensable root condition of pure morality is often overlooked - even many times in history - I found it suitable to repeat. Since when morality lacks, concentration will also decay. When concentration lacks, understanding also decays. Without understanding, there is no attainment of release! Up through the centuries this decay happens again & again. Any reinforcement of the Sasana, and comeback of beings with direct experience of release is founded in a cleaning of this basic behavioral foundation of Morality (Sila)... Both on the ordained and lay levels. : - ] 47616 From: "avinduandura" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:19am Subject: identifying thoughts avinduandura Dear Sarah and all, I was highly impressed by "introduction to abhidamma-speaker notes", so just had a thought of seeing myself as a collection of "ultimate realities" as explained in the notes. I thought myself is a collection of rupa, vedana, sanna,sankhara, vinnana. from the above collection, I took vedana, sanna, sankhara and named as ultimate reality "cetasika". i had to neglect more specific components. ie vedana sanna sankhara. again, vinnan is "citta" and rupa remain as rupa. now myself is built from ultimate realities 1. rupa 2. cetasika ethically veriable(13) wholesome(12) un wholesome (14) 3. citta -12 unwholesome, 18 rootless, 24 beautiful(wholesome and resultant or subconsious) then i assumed any of those citta(54) and cetasika (39) can be noticed by close examination. i was able to notice many "thoughts" but had difficulties when catagorizing those thoughts in to 1. greed, hatred,delution rooted citta 2. non-greed,non-hatred, non delution rooted citta 3. resultan citta a. ethical veriable cetasika b. wholesome cetasika c. un-wholesome cetasika my questions are; 1. is it possible to notice above ALL citta and cetasika? specially the resultant beautiful or subconsious citta? 2. what are the thoughts? just collection of citta and cetasika? 3. there is an examinar in this prosess. so what is that? it is a citta or cetasika? or subconcious mind in modern science? 4. what are the running thoughs that are apearing and dissapearing during the thought process? metta avidu. 47617 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:05am Subject: re: enjoying Sri Lanka nichiconn ok, dsg. did i just hear lead singer sarah chanting 'moha, moha, moha, sati' in bodh gaya as this other cross-post was headed out? peace, connie << meditation: bhaavanaa (f) increase; development by means of thought; meditation [bhavana (nt) becoming; a dwelling place] meditation (nt) jhaayana; jhaana jhaayana (nt) burning; meditation jhaana (nt) concentration of mind; meditation (on a religious subject) Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga is widely accepted as "the" meditation manual. It begins with a section on "Virtue". Then the "Concentration" section starts talking about "Acceptance of the Subjects of Meditation" and goes on for 11 chapters that lead into the "Understanding" section. Chapter 7, between "Meditation on the Foul" and "Mindfulness as to Death" in the "Exposition of the Subjects" discusses the "Six Recollections" (of the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, Virtue, Generosity & Devas). Part of Nanamoli's xltn reads: << [(2)] RECOLLECTION OF THE DHAMMA] 68. One who wants to develop the Recollection of the Dhamma (Law) should go into solitary retreat and recollect the special qualities of both the Dhamma (Law) of the scriptures and the ninefold supramundane Dhamma (state) as follows: 'The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One, visible here and now, not delayed (timeless), inviting of inspection, onward-leading, and directly experienceable by the wise' (M. i, 37; A. iii, 285). ... 71. And when listened to, it does good through hearing it because it suppresses the hindrances, thus it is good in the beginning. And when made the way of practice it does good through the way being entered upon because it brings the bliss of serenity and insight, thus it is good in the middle. And when it has thus been made the way of practice and the fruit of the way is ready, it does good through the fruit of the way because it brings [unshakable] equipoise, thus it is good in the end. So it is 'well proclaimed' because of being good in the beginning, the middle and the end. [...] It is 'utterly perfect' because it is connected with the five Aggregates of Dhamma beginning with Virtue. {33} It is 'pure' because it has no imperfection, because it exists for the purpose of crossing over [the round of rebirths' flood (see M.i,134)], and because it is not concerned with worldly things. So it is 'well proclaimed' because it 'announces the life of purity that is utterly perfect and pure with meaning and with detail'. Or alternatively, it is since it has been properly proclaimed with no perversion of meaning. For the meaning of other sectarians' law suffers perversion since there is actually no obstruction in the [215] things described there as obstructive and actually no outlet in the things described there as outlets, which is why their law is ill-proclaimed; but not so the Blessed One's Law, whose meaning suffers no perversion since the things described there as obstructions and the things described there as outlets are so in actual fact. So, in the first place, the Dhamma of the scriptures is 'well proclaimed'. 74. [...] Just as the water of the Ganges meets and joins with the water of the Yaumunaa, so too the way leading to nibbana has been properly declared to the disciples by the Blessed One, and nibbana and the way meet' (D.ii,223). 75. [...] 79. Or alternatively, it is seeing (dassana) that is called 'the seen (di.t.tha)'; then di.t.tha and sandi.t.tha are identical in meaning as 'seeing'. It is worthy of being seen (di.t.tha), thus it is 'visible here and now '. For the supramundane Dhamma (law) arrests the fearful round (of kamma, etc.,] as soon as it is seen by means of penetration consisting in development [of the path] and by means of penetration consisting in realization [of nibbana]. So it is 'visible here and now (sandi.t.thika)' since it is worthy of being seen (di.t.tha), just as one who is clothable (vatthika) {34} is so called because he is worthy of clothes (vattha). [...] note 33. These 'five aggregates' are those of virtue, concentration, understanding, deliverance, and knowledge and vision of deliverance. The final part of this Law section reads (PMTin xltn): << And the monk who applies himself to the recollection of the Law comes to have, through seeing its qualities, respect and reverence for the Teacher: -- "Such a preacher of the Law which leads up to, such a teacher endowed with this merit I saw not in the past, nor do I see in the present, other than the Blessed One." Honouring the Law, he attains an abundance of faith and so on, is abundantly rapturous and joyful, overcomes fear and dread, is able to bear pain, gets an idea of the life in the Law; and his body, informed by recollection of the qualities of the Law, is worthy of adoration like a temple; his mind bends towards the attainment of the incomparable Law; in contact with sinful objects he feels a sense of shame and dread as he recalls the goodness of the Law; he is bound for a happy destiny though he penetrate no further. >> Onward leading... "That which is fit to be brought (to a conclusion) is "leading up to". This herein is the decision: the bringing to a conclusion is the leading up to it. Or, that which is fit to be brought to a conclusion in one's mind by means of culture, being indifferent in doing so, even though one's headdress or the head itself be burning. This refers to the conditioned transcendental Law. The Unconditioned is fit to be brought to a conclusion by one's own consciousness: hence, "leading up to." The meaning is, it is worthy of being cloven to by realization. Or it leads to Nibbaana. That which should lead is the Noble Path. The Fruition and the Nibbaana are fit to lead as they are to lead to a fit state for realization. That which is fit to lead is "leading up to". "To be attained to by the wise, each one for himself," means, to be understood by the wise such as those of quick understanding, each for himself thus: -- "The Path has been developed by me, the fruit is attained, cessation realized." For the pupil's vices are not put away by the Path developed by his preceptor; nor does he live in comfor by the latter's {1} attainment of the Fruition; neither does he realize the Nibbaana which the latter has realized. Therefore this is not merely to be looked at as one looks at an ornament on another's head. It should be seen, enjoyed {2} by the wise in their own mind, it is said. It is not a thing for fools. Further, < this Law is well-proclaimed >. Why? Because it is thoroughly seen. It is < thoroughly seen > because it is < not subject to time >. It is not subject to time because < it welcomes all >. And that which welcomes all < leads up to >. Thus when he recalls the qualities of the Law that is well-proclaimed and so forth, his mind then is not invaded by lust, nor by hate, nor by delusion, but is upright with reference to the Law. Thus when he has by this first method discarded the hindrances, the Jhaana-factors arise in one and the same moment. But from the profundity of the qualities of the Law, or the intentness with which he recalls them, various as they are, the Jhaana, not attaining to ecstacy, attains only to access. This Jhaana goes under the name of recollection of the Law because it arises by way of recalling the qualities of the Law. (PMTin xltn)>> <> 47618 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:38am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. > > I think there are some old posts on transplant matter. Below is my > reply to your message. > == I think it is useful to distinguish beween a cochlear implant and a transplant. A cochlear implant is an inorganic, inanimate electrical device, and a transplant is organic, living material taken from another being. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Herman: > > Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that > sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? > == > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Aayatana are paramattha dhamma. But cochlea is not. Nor is cochlea > implant or transplant. > I am happy that we are discussing this. I am determined to understand this, with your help. I will just ask one question at a time and snip the rest, so as to make it easier on myself. Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? Kind Regards Herman 47619 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sila as neccessary but not sufficient condition for Samadhi upasaka_howard Dear Bhante - Thak you for writing! :-) In a message dated 7/13/05 7:55:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bhikkhu.samahita@... writes: Dear friend Howard: I agree in that Sila is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for Samadhi. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sir. I know that you do. :-) --------------------------------- However as this indispensable root condition of pure morality is often overlooked - even many times in history - I found it suitable to repeat. --------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! It is so easy to lose sight of the fact that morality is not only proper, but is eminently *practical*! --------------------------------- Since when morality lacks, concentration will also decay. When concentration lacks, understanding also decays. Without understanding, there is no attainment of release! ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes! As usual, very well said, sir! ------------------------------------- Up through the centuries this decay happens again & again. Any reinforcement of the Sasana, and comeback of beings with direct experience of release is founded in a cleaning of this basic behavioral foundation of Morality (Sila)... Both on the ordained and lay levels. : - ] ======================= Thank you, Bhante! :-) With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47620 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - The picture is becoming clearer and clearer. Now it is crystal clear with respect to the role of vitakka in samatha and vipassana, and what panna means in both cases. > Is there anything else I can add? > Nina. You wrote, "Vitakka is often translated as applied thought.", but what about thinking? What about vicara? Are vitakka & vicara the product of thinking, or is thinking the outcome of vitakka & vicara, or does thinking have nothing to do with "thought"? More important, is thinking necessary and sufficient for conditioning insight knowledges? Is thinking important in vipassana? Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, (snipped) > > Tep: Up to now, it is clear that 1) the object of vitakka in samatha is > > different than the object of vitakka in vipassana, 2) the aim of vitakka in the 1st jhana is not the same as that of vipassana, and 3) wisdom of samatha is different (lower?) than wisdom of vipassana. But I am unable to relate these three observations to explain "thinking" in both cases. Please continue to explain. > ------ > N: That is right. > Vitakka is often translated as applied thought. It 'hits' or 'touches' the > object experienced by citta and the accompanying cetasikas. It assists citta in cognizing an object. It accompanies all sense sphere cittas, except the sense-cognitions. Seeing sees visible object and it does not need vitakka. > In samatha vitakka hits or touches the meditation subject again and again and thereby assists sati sampajaññaa of samatha so that calm can develop. > In vipassana vitakka hits or touches the nama and rupa that appears through one of the six doors, so that right understanding of nama and rupa can develop in the different stages of insight. > The aim of samatha is calm, temporary freedom from defilements, detachment from sense objects. Also in samatha paññaa is necessary, paññaa that understands what calm is, how it can be attained. It has to know when the hindrances arise, what the jhanafactors are, how the hindrances are overcome by the jhanafactors. > The aim of vipassana is the eradication of wrong view and of all other > defilements. Paññaa has to realize nama and rupa as they are. This leads to detachment from nama and rupa. > 47621 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:37am Subject: Re: identifying thoughts htootintnaing Dear Avidu, Thanks for your post. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "avinduandura" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu wrote: Dear Sarah and all, I was highly impressed by "introduction to abhidamma-speaker notes", so just had a thought of seeing myself as a collection of "ultimate realities" as explained in the notes. I thought myself is a collection of rupa, vedana, sanna,sankhara, vinnana. from the above collection, I took vedana, sanna, sankhara and named as ultimate reality "cetasika". i had to neglect more specific components. ie vedana sanna sankhara. again, vinnan is "citta" and rupa remain as rupa. now myself is built from ultimate realities 1. rupa 2. cetasika ethically veriable(13) wholesome(12) un wholesome (14) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are your wholesome cetasikas of 12? Ethically variable 13 cetasikas are 1. contact, 2. feeling, 3. volition, 4. perception, 5. one-pointedness 6. mental-life, 7. attention 8. initial-application, 9. sustained-application, 10. effort 11. joy, 12. wish, 13. decision Unwholesome 14 are 1. ignorance, 2. shamelessness, 3. fearlessness, 4. upset, 5. attachment, 6.conceit, 7. wrong-view 8. aversion, 9. jealousy, 10. stinginess, 11. worry 12. sloth, 13. torpor, and 14. suspicion I am not clear of what you are talking on 12 wholesome cetasikas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: [Avidu is made up of 1.rupa, 2. cetasikas and] 3. citta -12 unwholesome, 18 rootless, 24 beautiful(wholesome and resultant or subconsious) then i assumed any of those citta(54) and cetasika (39) can be noticed by close examination. i was able to notice many "thoughts" but had difficulties when catagorizing those thoughts in to 1. greed, hatred,delution rooted citta 2. non-greed,non-hatred, non delution rooted citta 3. resultan citta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 1. 10 cittas rooted by 2 bad roots. 2 cittas rooted by 1 bad root. 2. 47 cittas rooted by all 3 good roots. 12 cittas rooted by 2 good roots. 3. 18 cittas with no root. --- 89 cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: a. ethical veriable cetasika b. wholesome cetasika c. un-wholesome cetasika my questions are; 1. is it possible to notice above ALL citta and cetasika? specially the resultant beautiful or subconsious citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All 89 cittas can be the object of a mind. But your question seems to be specific. I think you are asking whether bhavanga cittas can be noticed or not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: 2. what are the thoughts? just collection of citta and cetasika? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thoughts itself is just a word and it is a broad term. So it is not possible to comment on it. But thoughts may well be a mixture. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: 3. there is an examinar in this prosess. so what is that? it is a citta or cetasika? or subconcious mind in modern science? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Who is the examiner? I could not find. If you do please tell me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Avidu: 4. what are the running thoughs that are apearing and dissapearing during the thought process? metta avidu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All thoughts are running. But I think you seem to be asking on javana cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47622 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: Sila => Samadhi ... !!! buddhistmedi... Ven, Samahita - Thank you for the correction. I think what I meant was : with fulfilled virtues we don't have to intend to be remorseful(hiri), remorse is spontaneous. Of course, with perfect sila we are free from remorse. But while virties are being fulfilled, they are not yet prefect. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >with fulfilled sila one becomes spontaneously remorseful > > With pure Morality one becomes free of remorse and regrets. > This freedom produces joy. Being remorseful leads to worry. > > : - ] 47623 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. > > I think there are some old posts on transplant matter. Below is my > > reply to your message. > > == I think it is useful to distinguish beween a cochlear implant and a transplant. A cochlear implant is an inorganic, inanimate electrical device, and a transplant is organic, living material taken from another being. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know both implant and transplant. Both are related to our discussion on ayatana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Herman: > > > > Are you saying that ayatanas are not paramattha dhammas? Or that > > sense-bases do not correspond to physical organs? == ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Aayatana are paramattha dhamma. But cochlea is not. Nor is cochlea > > implant or transplant. > I am happy that we are discussing this. I am determined to understand this, with your help. I will just ask one question at a time and snip the rest, so as to make it easier on myself. Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere (in the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47624 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah and Htoo, I think it's pretty clearly Htoo is wrong on this issue. There's not much ambiguity left after Visuddhimagga passages. - Kel 47625 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:45am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. kelvin_lwin Hi Herman, I was thinking about the reply and I wasn't sure how familiar you're with Abhidhamma and how much I should use the terms. Cerainly sati accompanies every kusala citta so we can call it mere mindfulness. Sati doesn't understand but panna does to arise in 4/8 kusala cittas. > Part of the discussion in post #39749 centres around the fact that > at a moment of sati(-sampajana), third-party accounts of what is > happening have no bearing on the matter. It may appear to others > that there is a dhamma talk going on, a conversation, a lunch. Do > you, or anyone else, know what it is like to be a stream of kiriya > cittas, even for a short while? You probably read the sutta RobK posted. We wouldn't experience the maha-kiriyas because that only happens in arahats. The way I think about it, panna only knows more. It's only when there's access concentration or higher, the mind doesn't move away from one object that you lose sense of the surroundings. With momentary concentration, the object can be constantly changing. - kel 47626 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:39am Subject: "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon ksheri3 Good Morning Evan, We're choc ful of Nuts this morning huh? See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > > Ignorance to science is lack of knowledge. This is filled by > investigation which is an infinite pursuit not conducive to peace but> leading to frustration. colette: ever go whitewater rafting or zodiak rafting? We can pressume that the Stream of Consciousness is a peacfule ride huh? What causes, in the buddhist tradition of Dependent Causation, the ripple in the smooth surface of the conscious stream? Could it be Bam Bam or is it Pebbles? Do they flow in the stream or are they stagnant, crystalized to, secure to, the bottom where you surely can find cat-fish and other bottom feeders? Don't you find it interesting that kamma would be issued to a rock or a pebble forcing that rock or pebble to the bottom where it is to interupt the Stream of Consciousness? Is the rock or pebble aware of the kamma? In some people's case they act as deterents to competing for the limitation of money, of power, and that of taking the power and money away from a status quo. Still, if a persons tries to act as a rock or pebble then they are playing the game of deception where we find the sheep's clothing adorned on a wolf. Surely that person is subject to the most horrendous of kamma, then, because of their deception i.e. the webs we weave..., the 3 Kelipothic nogah (3 qliphothic evils not to be approached by man), All The Kings Men, etc. ------------------------------- > > Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as > they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a > finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and cessation. It > is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle > experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or > abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions > attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also were > able to attain some of the path and fruits. colette: <....> You are suggesting a wonderful idea, so original, and who could have ever thought of it: only have a single goal and repeat the same message over & over & over &... <...> do you suggest that the Bhikkhus path is the only path and that it is that path which should be the path everyone fallows or pursues? <....> --------------------------- Theology is > derived from 2 Greek words - Theo meaning God and Logia meaning > discussion. So it is a discussion of God. That is why I dismissed > theology as having any relevence to any Buddhist topic. As for the book > you mention, no I have not read it but I assume from its title that it > discusses mythical Tibetan characters. That's fine but I don't think > they would be revered as Gods. The Buddha is called a teacher of gods > and men (men meaning women as well of course) but I prefer to interpret > that as being deities or beings from higher planes of existence. God in > the western world implies a creator god which is quite definitely > refuted by the Buddha. Some people take the deity discourses as being > fact, some consider them to be a means to deliver a message and others > reserve their judgement until they observe these beings for themselves. > That is fine and whichever path you take is up to your own preference. > None of these paths detracts from the Buddhist message. colette: exactly they all lead to the same place however some are more direct than others. <...> While some paths lead directly to the point of origin or destination other paths tend to be run arounds that can be construed as attempts to mislead and misdirect in order to create confusion and ignorance. Here I must say that if a Meglamaniac was going to have any characteristics then the most glorifying characteristic they could possibly crave to possess is the characteristic to place someone in a maze without any hope of escape and begging for food & water, begging for everything, until they can get out of the maze. I recall reading a pc. either it was "Entering The Budddhadhamma" or maybe it was "The General Guidance and Purification of the Soul ver. 2" and one of them was completely consumed with Miss Direction. I even commented to the author that "it sounds as if you're creating a labyrinth." toodles, colette <....> 47627 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, This is very clear. Thank you. One further question below. > > Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for > hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere > (in the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. > > Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part > of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. > Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) Kind Regards Herman 47628 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:13pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi Kel, Thank you, I now appreciate the difference. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I was thinking about the reply and I wasn't sure how familiar > you're with Abhidhamma and how much I should use the terms. > Cerainly sati accompanies every kusala citta so we can call it mere > mindfulness. Sati doesn't understand but panna does to arise in 4/8 > kusala cittas. > > > Part of the discussion in post #39749 centres around the fact that > > at a moment of sati(-sampajana), third-party accounts of what is > > happening have no bearing on the matter. It may appear to others > > that there is a dhamma talk going on, a conversation, a lunch. Do > > you, or anyone else, know what it is like to be a stream of kiriya > > cittas, even for a short while? > > You probably read the sutta RobK posted. We wouldn't experience > the maha-kiriyas because that only happens in arahats. The way I > think about it, panna only knows more. It's only when there's > access concentration or higher, the mind doesn't move away from one > object that you lose sense of the surroundings. With momentary > concentration, the object can be constantly changing. > > - kel 47629 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: driving a car and sati. egberdina Hi Nina, Thank you. I think I am understanding the subtleties a bit more. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Herman, > cittas are arising and falling away very fast. In between our work, or > driving a car, there can be a moment of kusala citta with sati and > understanding of the visible object or hardness at that moment. But I do not > say that it is easy. Such a short moment of satipatthana would never > interfere with what you are doing. On the contrary, it is to one's benefit. > Satipatthana is not the same as the development of concentration on one > meditation subject. Is a moment of satipatthana the same as a moment of not papanca(ing)? Kind Regards Herman > Nina. > >> You often present the view that sati can arise anytime, in any > >> situation. I disagree with that, for the following reasons. For > > anyone > >> engaged in the business of daily life where others are in close > >> proximity, sati can be quite a dangerous thing. Sati whilst driving a > >> car at a 100kmh ... 47630 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions. egberdina Hi RobertK, A very relevant story indeed! Point taken. (It seems a bit of an anti-climax to mark the attaining of arantship with climbing/sliding down a pole :-)) Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman and Kel, > Here is a nice story from the Dhammapadaatthakatha related to this > issue: > > http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm > Verse 348 > > The Story of Uggasena 47631 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Evan_Stamato... Hi Htoo, This is not as I have understood it. As I read the suttas it is quite clear to me that the 5 sense bases are the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. These are all the physical organs which enable the entry of sense objects. Are you saying that this is not so? If so what are you saying that the sense bases are? With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Egbert Sent: Thursday, 14 July 2005 8:12 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Hi Htoo, This is very clear. Thank you. One further question below. > > Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for > hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere (in > the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. > > Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part > of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. > Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) Kind Regards Herman 47632 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon Evan_Stamato... Hi Colette, colette: ever go whitewater rafting or zodiak rafting? We can pressume that the Stream of Consciousness is a peacfule ride huh? What causes, in the buddhist tradition of Dependent Causation, the ripple in the smooth surface of the conscious stream? Could it be Bam Bam or is it Pebbles? Do they flow in the stream or are they stagnant, crystalized to, secure to, the bottom where you surely can find cat-fish and other bottom feeders? Don't you find it interesting that kamma would be issued to a rock or a pebble forcing that rock or pebble to the bottom where it is to interupt the Stream of Consciousness? Is the rock or pebble aware of the kamma? In some people's case they act as deterents to competing for the limitation of money, of power, and that of taking the power and money away from a status quo. Still, if a persons tries to act as a rock or pebble then they are playing the game of deception where we find the sheep's clothing adorned on a wolf. Surely that person is subject to the most horrendous of kamma, then, because of their deception i.e. the webs we weave..., the 3 Kelipothic nogah (3 qliphothic evils not to be approached by man), All The Kings Men, etc. ------------------------------- For one that has made ones mind as still as a rock, there is no deception. There is purity. Nor is it stagnant - it is clear and bright. > > Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as > they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a > finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and cessation. It > is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle > experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or > abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions > attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also were > able to attain some of the path and fruits. colette: <....> You are suggesting a wonderful idea, so original, and who could have ever thought of it: only have a single goal and repeat the same message over & over & over &... <...> do you suggest that the Bhikkhus path is the only path and that it is that path which should be the path everyone fallows or pursues? <....> --------------------------- There is no point in originality when the Buddha has expounded this Dhamma so perfectly. Repetition is a tool used in the suttas to get the message across. I also use this technique - I think it's very effective. There is only one goal of the Buddhasassana. I am not suggesting that the Bhikkhu's path is the only path otherwise I would be a Bhikkhu myself. No, what I am saying is that whether one is rich or poor, one can follow the path. One's ability to follow the path is independent of the magnitude of one's material accumulations. Theology is > derived from 2 Greek words - Theo meaning God and Logia meaning > discussion. So it is a discussion of God. That is why I dismissed > theology as having any relevence to any Buddhist topic. As for the book > you mention, no I have not read it but I assume from its title that it > discusses mythical Tibetan characters. That's fine but I don't think > they would be revered as Gods. The Buddha is called a teacher of gods > and men (men meaning women as well of course) but I prefer to interpret > that as being deities or beings from higher planes of existence. God in > the western world implies a creator god which is quite definitely > refuted by the Buddha. Some people take the deity discourses as being > fact, some consider them to be a means to deliver a message and others > reserve their judgement until they observe these beings for themselves. > That is fine and whichever path you take is up to your own preference. > None of these paths detracts from the Buddhist message. colette: exactly they all lead to the same place however some are more direct than others. <...> While some paths lead directly to the point of origin or destination other paths tend to be run arounds that can be construed as attempts to mislead and misdirect in order to create confusion and ignorance. Here I must say that if a Meglamaniac was going to have any characteristics then the most glorifying characteristic they could possibly crave to possess is the characteristic to place someone in a maze without any hope of escape and begging for food & water, begging for everything, until they can get out of the maze. I recall reading a pc. either it was "Entering The Budddhadhamma" or maybe it was "The General Guidance and Purification of the Soul ver. 2" and one of them was completely consumed with Miss Direction. I even commented to the author that "it sounds as if you're creating a labyrinth." --------------------------- You are correct - some paths are more direct than others. Some people prefer to take the scenic route to their destinations and others prefer the shortest route. Some get stuck in a maze going round and round. This depends on one's disposition and that is why there is more than one vehicle to cater for different personality types. Theological paths, however, are a dead end that must be recognised as such before further development can take place. With Metta, Evan 47633 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Re. body consciousness of breath rupas and mindfulness of breath rupas, can we say mindfulness (sati) generates an intention to be conscious of breath rupas? If so, then mindfulness of breath rupas is an intentional body consciousness generated by mindfulness. Assuming that is correct, what is the difference between a desirous intention and a mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? Larry 47634 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. lbidd2 Hi Nina, One more thought on dosa. Can we say there are only three possible responses to painful feeling, insight, hatred, or bewilderment? Larry 47635 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Vism.XIV,172 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 172. (xlvi) Envying is 'envy'. It has the characteristic of being jealous of other's success. Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. It is manifested as averseness from that. Its proximate cause is another's success. It should be regarded as a fetter. 47636 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:34pm Subject: Sati and panna philofillet Hi Nina, and all I found this from an old post. It keeps coming up. Nina wrote: "Sati just attends to the characteristic of seeing when it appears and then panna can at that moment perform its task of illuminating the object." Nina, I know you have many threads to respond to but if you have time during the next couple of days, could I ask you to expand on this just a little? Is it the role of sati to bring an object to the forefront and hold it in place momentarily, if you will, so that panna can understand it, penetrate it, get at the characteristics? I keep thinking of a gem merchant holding up (sati) a gem so that his trained eye (panna) can penetrate the object of his attention and know its characteristics clearly. I assume the "seeing" above could be any paramattha dhamma, in principle, at least. (There are limits to what we can attend to.) Thanks in advance. Sorry if I've asked this question before... Metta, Phil 47637 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:32pm Subject: Letter to Herman (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - , egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for your post and for sharing your insights with us all. > It is not clear to me how analytical or synthesising > > acts of the mind, as required by that current of Buddhism that > > promulgates the need to know things at that elemental level which > > supposedly is the real reality, are not a variety of papanca. To > me, > > it seems that when there is no analysis or no synthesis, there are > not > > elements, there is .......... > > Ph: Yes, I think we agree there. The point is that we shouldn't > try too hard to understand the details. == I tend to get stuck on things like this. If we start of from the perspective of anatta, then, of course, shoulding and trying are also just conditioned events. As I wrote recently to Andrew, the upshot of the anatta doctrine is that self-view is also anatta. There is noone that has self-view. In effect, the discovery of the reality of anatta makes no difference to reality, and that is why only an enlightened person knows anatta truly. Trying to discover anatta is like trying to discover nibbana. It doesn't work. == Understanding will arise in > a conditioned way, "panna will work its way" as I heard today, or it > won't. == Very much agreed. (Geez, we're almost bosom buddies :-)). The only hope I have is that the path to cessation of suffering is just as it jumps out at me in the suttas, in which case panna *will* do its work. == > > BTW, what comes after the "there is...." above? Nibbana? Are you > a believer in "nibbana now?" What do you take that to mean? I think > there can certainly be calm now, peace of mind now, thanks to the > Buddha's teaching of anatta, though there is more likely to be a > kind of clinging to some kind of calm. But I don't understand > this "nibbana now." > The little kid in "sixth sense" saw dead people, sometimes I see holes in consciousness. Such occurences make me believe that nibbana is a possible reality. Other "crazy" things happen when there is a suspension of thinking. (I call them crazy because they are very unusual). After suspending thinking there comes awareness of other, non-thinking realities, and it is possible to find a way of suspending them in turn as well. If "nibbana now" is not a possibility now, then it never will be a possibility. The things that stand in the way of it are not going to cease by themself as long as the cycle of dependent origination is being fuelled. And that is what we are doing all the time, often without knowing that we are doing it. Waiting for the fire to go out whilst shovelling coal on it at a furious pace is not so much the developing of patience, more an exercise in ignorance, wouldn't you say? Sure enough, the intention of finding nibbana is counterproductive. But the intention of ceasing the production of an insane world is not. And when the urge grabs you, run with it!! Kind Regards Herman > Over to you, Herman :) > > Metta, > Phil 47638 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:55pm Subject: Re: Bangkok sukinderpal Hi Nick, Welcome to DSG. My own interests in Buddhism lead me initially to Tibetan Buddhism, and for a few years I was little interested in the Theravada tradition. Just more than five years ago however, I decided to take the so called `practice' aspect more seriously. And because I knew of no Tibetan center here in Thailand, I started to look at the Theravada and came upon the Goenka method of meditation. I took my first 10 day retreat in April 2000 and 4 months later took another one. After that, like you, I was looking for a group to meditate with. But I found K. Sujin and DSG instead. Since then I have been reading most of the discussions here on DSG and going regularly almost every Saturday, to the foundation where we have live discussions with K. Sujin and friends like Ivan and Betty. I gave up formal practice quite early on for reasons you will come to understand if you continue reading on DSG and/or join the Saturday discussions at the foundation. ;-). If interested, call me on my mobile: 01 8254012 or at work: 02 2550680 and I shall provide you with further information. Hope you do come to the foundation. Metta, Sukinder (Sukin) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Nick, (Sukin and all), > > Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting. > --- Nicholas Benedict wrote: > > > Hi, This is my first post. > > I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a > > teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here > > for English speakers or foreigners? 47639 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:59pm Subject: Friendliness Frees ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Friendliness & Goodwill is the Ninth Mental Perfection: Friendliness means Goodwill Friendliness means Kindness Friendliness means Helpfulness Friendliness means Assistance Friendliness means Support Friendliness means Benevolence Friendliness means Concern Friendliness means Care Friendliness means Compassion Friendliness means Cooperation Friendliness means Mutual Aid Friendliness means Mutual Advantage Friendliness means Sympathy Friendliness means Symbiosis Only friendliness can completely relinquish the poison of hate and anger! It's characteristic is promoting other being's welfare, it's function is to do only good, and it's manifestation is kindness, sympathy, & gentleness... The proximate cause of friendliness is seeing the good aspects of things! The proximate cause of understanding compassion is this very friendliness! Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the release of mind by universal friendliness; in shining, glowing and beaming radiance, this release of mind by universal friendliness far excels & surpasses them all... What are the 11 Advantages of cultivating such Universal Friendliness? The four Brahma Viharas; The four Divine States: The four Supreme States; The four Infinite States: 'Friends, eleven advantages are to be expected as effect from the release of mind into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by cultivating amity, by making much of it frequently, by making friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, by persisting on it, by being well established in it as a sublime habit. What are these eleven advantages ? One sleeps Happy ! One wakes up Happy ! One dreams No Evil dreams ! One is Liked & Loved by all human beings! One is Liked & Loved by all non-human beings too! One is Guarded & Protected by the divine Devas ! One cannot be Harmed by Fire, Poison, nor Weapons ! One easily Attains the Concentration of Absorption ! Ones appearance becomes Serene, Calm, & Composed ! One dies without Confusion, Bewilderment, nor Panic ! One reappears after death on the Brahma level, if one has penetrated to no higher level in this very life ! When the mind is released into friendliness by the practice of Goodwill, by manifesting Friendliness, by cultivating Amity, by frequently making much of it, by making Friendliness the vehicle, the tool, the basis, the medium, the foundation, by persisting in it, by insisting on it, by properly consolidating it, by thoroughly undertaking it, by making it a familiar supreme habit, by so being well established in it, these eleven blessings can be expected.' Anguttara Nikaya V 342 There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness pervading first one direction, then a second one, then a third one then the fourth one, as below so above, across & all around, everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is encompassing the whole world with a mind full of friendly loving-kindness, with a mind wide, developed, unbounded, cleared, exalted, pure & bright, free from hate and ill will ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of understanding compassion pervading first the front, then the right side, then the back, then the left side, as below so above, across & all around, all over, far & wide; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is perfusing the whole universe with a mind imbued with pity, with a spacious mind, a refined mind, infinite, cleared, pure & brilliant, freed from all anger and any trace of enmity ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of altruistic & sympathetic joy pervading the North, then the East, then the South, then the West, as below so above, across & all around, universally, infinitely; identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is suffusing all galaxies with a mind full of genuine mutual & altruistic sympathetic joy, with an open mind, vast, limitless, purified, cleared, pure & shining, free from aversion and bitterness ... There, Oohh friends, the Bhikkhu with a mind full of balanced equanimity pervading first the frontal quadrant, then the right, then the rear & then the left quadrant, as below so above, across & all around; and everywhere identifying himself with all sentient beings, he is permeating the whole world with a mind satiated of balanced equanimity, calmed, with a mountain-like mind, cultivated, endless, cleared, pure & dazzling, freed from any irritation & resentment ...' So too, bhikkhus, others may speak to you timely or untimely, true or untrue, gentle or harsh, beneficial or for harmful, based on kindness or on bitter hate! If they abuse you verbally, you should train yourselves in this way: "Our minds will remain unaffected, we shall speak no angry words, we will dwell friendly and understanding, with thoughts of kindness and no inward anger. We shall remain friendly and beam goodwill towards that very person, and we shall dwell extending it to the entire universe, mentally overflowing, exalted, measureless & infinite in amiability, without any trace hostility nor ill-will." That is how you should train yourselves. Even if bandits were savagely to cut you up, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, one who harbours hate from that account, would not be one who carried out my teaching. Bhikkhus, you should keep this instruction on that Simile of the Saw constantly in mind. Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 21 Thus he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live, finds enmity with none. Samyutta Nikaya. I 208 When one with a mind of love feels compassion for the entire world -- above, below and across, unlimited everywhere. Jataka 37 The Bodhisatta once was born as the righteous king Ekaraja. His kingdom was taken by force and he & his son was buried in a pit to the neck... King Ekaraja, however neither resisted nor bore even slight ill will against the invaders. Later he remembered this as his ultimate perfection of friendliness. Ekaraja Jataka 303 For details see: The Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel007.html The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Chapter IX. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Quite Cordially, PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47640 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:24pm Subject: Symbiotic is Straight & Simple Appreciation bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend Howard upasaka@... wrote: >Thank you for writing! :-) A true pleasure among friends...!!! Even Mutually advantageous... Thus Be Symbiotic ... : - ] 47641 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:59pm Subject: The Preliminary Requisites for Jhana Absorption... bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What are the Requisites for Attaining the 1st Jhana Absorption? The proximate acute momentary causes: Absence of sense desire. Absence of ill will. Absence of lethargy & laziness. Absence of restlessness & regret. Absence of doubt & uncertainty. Presence of directed thought. Presence of sustained thinking. Presence of thrilled joy. Presence of pleasurable happiness. Presence of unified single-pointed focus. The preliminary long-standing requisites: Expressed as one single factor: Bliss ... !!! Expressed as 10 factors: Full self-control gained by purifying Morality!!! Guarding the Sense Doors.. Moderate Eating.. Wakefulness at night.. Prior life preliminary work with an meditation object.. Mastery in directing mind to the sign of absorption. Mastery in attaining first calm, then unified focus. Mastery in determining the duration in advance. Mastery in emergence from this exalted state. Mastery in reviewing the qualities of this state. The additional supporting qualities: Clean body & dwelling place. Skill in remembering & extending the sign. Skill in restraining the distracted mind. Skill in calming the agitated mind. Skill in encouraging the bored mind. Skill in observing the well working. Avoiding scatter-brained persons. Frequenting well focused friends. Reviewing the Liberations & Jhanas. Resolute determination to succeed. These are the necessary, sufficient & quite enabling factors, which are preliminary requisites for attaining the 1st Jhana... --- So guard the sign or count the cost! And what is gained will not be lost! Who fails to have his guard well maintained, Will lose each time, what he has gained.... Vism. --- Some core Canonical References on attaining the Jhana absorptions: Sutta Pitaka: Digha Nikaya: sutta 2 [i 73-77], 9 [i 182-184]. Majjhima Nikaya: sutta 8 [i 41-2], 39 [i 276-8], 77 [15-7], 111 [iii 25-9], 119 [iii 92-4]. Samyutta Nikaya: The two whole Jhana Samyuttas no: 34 and 54. Anguttara Nikaya: II [125-8, 193-6], III [22-6, 311, 427-8], IV [34, 406-40], V [207-9, 342-258]. Abhidhamma Pitaka: The Classification of States: Dhammasanghani: § 160-364, § 505-555, § 996 The Book of Analysis: Vibhanga: Chapter XII Analysis of Jhana pp 319-56, [244-275]. Points of Controversy: Kathavatthu: The questions on hallucinations, hearing, talking, transitions, and intervals in between and while in jhana. a.o... Conditional Relations: Patthana: Jhana is the 17th out of the 24 relations. Some excellent commentarial explanations on the Jhana absorptions: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. Chapter III-XI The Path of Freedom: Vimuttimagga ~ 1st century BC. Chapter IV-VIII Most Neatly Summarized in: The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Venerable Mahathera Henepola Gunaratana BPS: Wheel No. 351/353: Please review your meditation state honestly & exactly, so not to overestimate it; a common pitfall of pride ...!!! ____________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47642 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. gazita2002 hello Larry, I've never heard of a special breathing consciousness either, and you'll notice that I italic-ed the word responsible. I honestly can't answer in fine details any of this and at this stage I don;t have a need to know exactly; I do know 'I' breathe and that one day 'I' won't - cuti citta arises. Breathing, heart beating, hair growing, pancreas making insulin, they are pretty much all the same to me. It's all fairly gross under this shedding skin. This is maybe getting off topic so I'll leave it here and see if anyone else has more detail about this subject. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Azita: "its my understanding that the kamma that produces patisandhi > citta also produces the citta 'responsible' for breathing -" > > Hi Azita, > > Thanks for pitching in. Everything you said seemed reasonable except the > above. I've never heard of a special breathing consciousness, but I > couldn't find anything definitive in CMA. Do you think it could be two > different consciousnesses, one for in and one for out? Maybe we should > meditate on this. > > Larry 47643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati and panna nilovg Hi Phil, op 14-07-2005 03:34 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I found this from an old post. It keeps coming up. Nina > wrote: "Sati just attends to the characteristic of seeing when it > appears and then panna can at that moment perform its task of > illuminating the object." ...Is it the role of sati to bring an object to the forefront and hold it in place momentarily, if you will, so that panna can understand it, penetrate it, get at the characteristics? ------- N: When there is sati of the level of satipatthana there is non-forgetfulness of what appears now, one at a time, through one of the six doorways. This can be a nama or rupa, not a concept of a person or a tree. It is a present dhamma. It can be seen as present even though the object of sati has just fallen away. A process of cittas with sati and paññaa can follow very closely upon a process of cittas that experience a sense object through one of the doorways or a process with cittas accompanied by attachment, aversion, or paññaa. Also paññaa should be known as a condiitoned nama. Sati and paññaa arise, in the case you indicate above, at the same time, they experience the same object, but each perform their own function. Sati does not waste the opportunity to be aware of the object that presents itself and paññaa knows its characteristic. -------- Ph:I keep thinking of a gem merchant holding up (sati) a gem so that his > trained eye (panna) can penetrate the object of his attention and > know its characteristics clearly. ------ N: I think the focus should be mostly on understanding. What does paññaa understand? No matter it is intellectual understanding or beginning to be direct understanding. If we think too much of sati maybe we are tempted to 'do something' to have sati. -------- Ph: I assume the "seeing" above could > be any paramattha dhamma, in principle, at least. (There are limits > to what we can attend to.) ----- N: Yes. It has to be a paramattha dhamma, any object. We should not limit the object of awareness. When considering the satipatthana sutta, we see many, many subjects of daily life that can be a means of contemplation of paramattha dhammas. We are distracted, but we can be brought back to the reality appearing now. Hair, nails, postures, talking, eating, anything can remind us to develop understanding. Nina. 47644 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:53am Subject: Always in danger of Ignorance. nilovg Hi Phil, Some words in a previous post you used, stayed with me. Your insistance to have no expectations, and also your mentioning of a sense of urgency. Yes, when we realize how ignorant we are, there may be conditions for a sense of urgency. When we read suttas about the shortness of life and we listen to the Buddha's exhortations, there can be a sense of urgency that can condition the development of right understanding, not in the future, but now. But, as you said, no expectations. I think that in this way we can find the right balance between having no expectations and being patient, and on the other hand not being neglectful. When copying for Sarah, I was impressed by the following conversation with Kh Sujin. We can take her words about doing something with lobha to support sati in the right sense. *** Transcript: ****** Nina. 47645 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:53am Subject: some elaboration on saññaa. to Sarah nilovg Hi Sarah, When you meet Kh Sujin in August I have so specific questions, but it is helpful to hear more about our attachment. I would like to hear more about the role of saññaa that is a condition for so much attachment. Perhaps Kh. Sujin could elaborate on this? It has an enormous impact on us, does it not? I quote again from the tape I copied: Nina. 47646 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Kel (and Herman at the end) > > I thought afterwards that the following is a bit extreme - > > implying that there is no kusala when we do conventionally wholesome > > things, such as helping others, studying Dhamma etc. > > Indeed one of the dangers when taking anatta too "far". From what > I've observed DSG people are sufficiently wise not to fall into the > trap. So I just don't read it as radically as written and give people > benefit of the doubt. Yes, benefit of the doubt, that kind of generosity, is important here and everywhere in life. The Buddha talked about milk and water as a simile for how people with different approaches to Dhamma should interact. Easier said than done. I guess benefit of the doubt is akin to upekkha. > > For some reason, I have this wish that you would just spend like 30 > minutes just listening to the Acharn Sujin's tapes. Perhaps I'm used > to receiving dhamma when it's more foreground and not background. I > just have this feeling it would be of help to your progress. A little background to this. I mentionned to Kel off-list about how I listen to the tapes with them kind of in the background as I walk to the station, or cook, or this and that. On nights I have trouble sleeping because of the heat etc. Actually, despite what I wrote, Kel, there is a lot of the time that they are pretty much in the foreground. The interesting thing is how the mind drifts away and comes back. And the way certain things people say (usually Acharn Sujin) leap out and catch my attention. I stop the i-pod, and stand wherever I am to jot it down in a notebook, sometimes on a crowded sidewalk in the middle of Tokyo with people streaming by. I know that's a kind of greediness and clinging for results, but so be it. A wiser person would let it go with faith that the next time it came around the mind would catch it again, and again, and so on. Another interesting thing is the quality of voice. I think reading a post by someone is not as convincing as hearing them say it out loud, maybe because the rupa of the voice is conditioned by the citta, and the confidence in kusala or whatever rings through. It occured to me that I would like to read a bunch of my favourite DSG posts onto a tape, the ones that have really inspired me. Listening to them might be even more inspiring. Of course the citta would be impure because there would be so much self behind such an exercise. But anyone who hasn't listened to Acharn Sujin definitely should. Go to the files and listen to the clip from the India talks, Bodhgaya. I would also like to hear some talks in which A. Sujin isn't around. I think there might be more speculation by people, which can be interesting. Speculation tends to get shut down in a hurry by A. Sujin, which is a good thing on the whole. Sitting and listening in an intent way? No, that wouldn't do. Too much greed for knowledge in that, I'd say. Trying to suck every drop of wisdom out of the talks. The beauty is the way the accumulations that are arising at any one moment of listening latch on to different things every time. Helps us to understand our accumulations. On one day I'll hear that there are no people in reality and feel irritated. On another day, most days, I hear it and feel encouraged. In which of those cases is there more accumulated wisdom at work? More accumulated lobha? More accumulated dosa? Can't know for sure, but interesting to reflect on in an easygoing way. Metta, Phil p.s Hi Herman. Thanks for your post. Back to you in a few days. The hairs on my arm stood up when you mentionned Sixth Sense because I watched it on DVD the day before yesterday and it blew me away. What karuna and courage in the scene when the boy returns to his room to talk to the ghost, hear her out, help her, despite his fears. Great movie. 47647 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: lokuttara cittas and Path factors. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Sarah and Htoo, > > I think it's pretty clearly Htoo is wrong on this issue. There's > not much ambiguity left after Visuddhimagga passages. > > - Kel -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Kel, Thank you very much for your comment. I do know that especially texts expert would say that. I do see what is written even in abhidhammatthasangaha that vitakka do not arise in 2nd jhaana lokuttara kusala citta. I do know that according to texts I would be wrong. But I am stubborn in this matter of lokuttara citta while I am very flexible in other issues. What I believe is all lokuttara cittas must have all 8 maggangas. I already said what I believe. I am not referring to texts for this matter. I do know what the texts. Anyway what is important is to attain those states. With respect, Htoo Naing 47648 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:21am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Dear Herman, Please see below. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Htoo, This is very clear. Thank you. One further question below. > Let's just confine ourselves to hearing. Is the sensitive base for > hearing anything physical in the ear or the body at all? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The sensitive base for hearing is not anything physical anywhere > (in the ear or the body at all) but it is something material. > Material means it is not non-material. Material means it is not part > of spiritual. Because the sensitive bases do not know anything at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman: Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Herman. They are necessary. This means 'without them there is no hearing'. But what we have to notice is that 'with them there may or may not be hearing'. I mean 'hearing-consciousness' or 'ear-consciousness' or 'sotavinnaana citta'. Example: You do have both working ear. But you do not hear all the time. Cakkhu-ppasada arises when you hear. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47649 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > This is not as I have understood it. As I read the suttas it is quite > clear to me that the 5 sense bases are the eye, ear, nose, tongue and > body. These are all the physical organs which enable the entry of sense > objects. Are you saying that this is not so? If so what are you saying > that the sense bases are? > > With Metta, > > Evan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Evan, What you understood is right. But what I have been talking to Herman is about pasada ruupa. Pasada ruupa cannot be sensed by 1. eye 2. ear 3. nose 4. tongue 5. body. I was referring to these implications. Cochlea implant can be touched. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47650 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:28am Subject: 108 Dhammanupassana and their implications ( 05 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 108 contemplations on dhamma. They are 1. 25 contemplations on hindrances (nivarana) 2. 15 contemplations on aggregates (khandha) 3. 36 contemplations on sense-bases(ayatana) 4. 28 contemplations on enlightenment-factors(bojjhanga) 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths(99 contemplations)(sacca) --- 108 contemplations 5. 4 contemplations on Noble Truths Noble disciples know 4 Noble Truths very well. They see dukka (sufferings) as dukkha in right vision. They see the cause of suffering as it is in right vision. They see the cessation of suffering as it is in right vision. They see the path of cessation of suffering as it is in right vision. As there are 4 sacca or 4 truths there are 4 contemplations on Noble Truths or sacca. For those who have not seen Noble Truth they will be just contemplating that at right time such dhamma arises internally. So does externally. That is Noble Truths arise in other individuals when there are right conditions and perfection. Sometimes dhamma may perceived as Noble Truths arise internally and externally. There are causes of these arising. And there are vanishing factors of these Noble Truths. Sometime both origination and vanishing of Noble Truths are perceived. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47651 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (441) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) There are 89 total cittas or 121 total cittas. But they all cannot arise in any given individual because there are many conditions that support the arising of cittas in individuals. 1. arahatta phalatthana puggla This is an arahat. He has already eradicated all defilements unlike arahatta maggatthaana puggala who just eradicates all defilements. This means that arahats have done the job of fulfilling holy life and there are evidences that they are pure. The possible cittas that can arise in these puggala are a. 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas or 7 rootless resultant consciousness of unwholesome origin. These 5 pancavinnaana cittas or 5-sense-consciousness, 1 receiving consciousness and 1 investigating consciousness. b. 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas or 8 rootless resultant consciousness of wholesome origin. They are 5 poancavinnaana cittas or 5-sense-consciousness, 1 receiving consciousness, 1 happy investigating consciousness and 1 indifferent-feeling investigating consciousness. c. 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 rootless functional consciousness or inoperational consc. d. 8 mahakiriya cittas or 8 functional consciousness of sensuous plane e. 8 mahavipaaka cittas or 8 resultant consciousness of sensuous plane f. 5 ruupakiriya cittas or 5 rupa jhaanas or arahats g. 4 aruupakiriya cittas or 4 aruupa jhaanas of arahats i. 1 arahatta phala citta or 1 supramundane arahatta fruition cons. --- 44 cittas These 44 cittas can arise in arahats or 'arahatta phalatthaana puggalas. These individuals are also called asikkha. Sikkhati means 'train'. Sikkha means 'trainee' and they are still under training to become arahats. Asikkha means 'non-trainee' and they do not need any further training as they all have trained and become arahats. People will think that such and such bhikkhu is an arahat and so on. But in ultimate sense there is no bhikkhu, no man, no arahat. What is seen as an arahat is just an illusion on these individuals who are just combination of 5 khandhas. Among 5 khandhas, as vinnaana-kkhandha only these 44 cittas can arise as vinnaana and other cittas in 89 total cittas are impossible to arise for 'human arahats'. Along with these 44 cittas are their associated feeling called vedana. This is vedana-kkhandha. And there also is sanna in each of these 44 cittas. All these sanna are sanna-kkhandha. Apart from vedana and sanna there are other cetasikas in these 44 cittas and these cetasikas are called sankhaara-kkhandha. Apart from panca-vinnaana cittas or 5-sense-consciousness all other cittas of 44 arahatta-cittas arise at hadaya vatthu or they all have to depend on hadaya vatthu. This is ruupa-kkhandha. When cakkhu- vinnaana citta or eye-consciousness arises they arise at cakkhu pasada ruupa or at eyes and so also are other sense-consciousness and these 5 pasada ruupa are ruupa-kkhandha. When one lives according to mahasatipatthaana he or she will not find any arahats and he or she will only find Dhamma like ruupa or naama. Arahats as bahiddhika dhamma will be seen by the Dhamma practitioner as ruupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, and vinnaanakkhandha. In that individual of arahat there are 5 panca-pasada ruupa or 5- sense-sensitivities like eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. These are ajjhattika ruupakkhandha of that individual and when 5-sense- consciousness arise there are arammanas or objects. These 5 objects like 'visual object' 'sound object' 'smell object' 'taste object' and 'touch object' all of which are 1.'vanna' or colour or shape or form, 2. sadda or sound, 3. gandha or smell, 4. rasa or taste, 5. photthabba or touch object(pathavi, tejo, vayo) altogether 7 ruupa are bahiddhika ruupa. But they are not part of individual arahats. 2. Arahatta maggatthaana puggala This individual is where arahatta magga citta arise. So this individual is so unique that there is no other citta but arahatta magga citta. This citta arises at hadaya vatthu or heart base when the individual is a human being. So it(hadaya vatthu) is ruupakkhandha. Arahatta magga citta is vinnaanakkhandha. There are vedana and sanna in that citta as accompanying cetasika and they are vedanakkhandha and sannakkhandha. All other associated cetasikas are sankharakkhandha. In ultimate sense there is no arahatta maggatthaana puggala but just 5 aggregates. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47652 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:34am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Evan_Stamato... Htoo, Thanks for clearing this up for me. My understanding of Pali terms is very primitive and has been a hindrance to my participating in many discussions on this forum so could you please explain for me when pasada ruupa is? Thanks. With Meta, Evan ----------------------------- Dear Evan, What you understood is right. But what I have been talking to Herman is about pasada ruupa. Pasada ruupa cannot be sensed by 1. eye 2. ear 3. nose 4. tongue 5. body. I was referring to these implications. Cochlea implant can be touched. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47653 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Kel, and Herman) - In a message dated 7/14/05 8:13:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > > For some reason, I have this wish that you would just spend like 30 > minutes just listening to the Acharn Sujin's tapes. Perhaps I'm used > to receiving dhamma when it's more foreground and not background. I > just have this feeling it would be of help to your progress. A little background to this. I mentionned to Kel off-list about how I listen to the tapes with them kind of in the background as I walk to the station, or cook, or this and that. On nights I have trouble sleeping because of the heat etc. Actually, despite what I wrote, Kel, there is a lot of the time that they are pretty much in the foreground. The interesting thing is how the mind drifts away and comes back. And the way certain things people say (usually Acharn Sujin) leap out and catch my attention. I stop the i-pod, and stand wherever I am to jot it down in a notebook, sometimes on a crowded sidewalk in the middle of Tokyo with people streaming by. I know that's a kind of greediness and clinging for results, but so be it. A wiser person would let it go with faith that the next time it came around the mind would catch it again, and again, and so on. ====================== Phil, what you wrote here made me think of something related that I have observed: One benefit that I have observed in hearing, reading, and mulling over the Dhamma is an effect that this has at times that one is *not* hearing, reading, and mulling it over. I believe that there is a lot of subliminal mental processing of material previously experienced that leaves mental traces, some useful, some harmful depending especially on the nature of the original material (but of course also on one's deep-seated inclinations). Dhammic material usually results in wholesome, useful traces which often express themselves as follows: One may be going about one's day-to-day life observing all sorts of things arising, some pleasant, some not, and the observed phenomena trigger mental responses. Often, if one has made it a habit to frequently hear, read, and mull over Dhamma, the response to the observed phenomenon that is triggered is not the common one of craving or aversion or mental proliferation, but instead is a brief recollection of a wonderfully relevant element of Dhamma or even a fresh Dhamma-based or Dhamma-compatible insight that prompts a response of equanimity, satisfaction, joy, and understanding. This is a matter that I have directly observed and is a point often made by several DSG folks. It is a valid and important point, I believe. Clearly, as you know by now, I also think that this process is *essentially* supported by all the rest of the practice taught by the Buddha, including intentional cultivation of sila, intentional guarding of the senses - particularly cultivating relinquishment, the sine qua non of dhamma practice, intentional recollection to be mindful in ordinary living, and, yes, very importantly, regular "formal meditation". But my main point in this post is to zero in on the importance of hearing, reading, and contemplating the Dhamma. It is the seed that all the rest waters and brings to fruition. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47654 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Evan wrote: Htoo, Thanks for clearing this up for me. My understanding of Pali terms is very primitive and has been a hindrance to my participating in many discussions on this forum so could you please explain for me when pasada ruupa is? Thanks. With Meta, Evan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo's reply: Pasada are ruupa. Ruupa are non-spiritual matters. Ruupa are material matters. Ruupa are more than physical matters. Pasaada are ruupa. Pasada means 'clearness' 'brightness' 'purity' and pasaada ruupas are 'sentient organs' 'sensitive surface' of physical materials. Eyes are physical materials. You can handle eyes. Likewise other special organs are all physical. These sensitive ruupa called pasaada ruupa all depend on these physical material. Physical materials are nothing but 'combination of 4 elements'. These elements are real elements and they are not like chemical element or physical element. Example a molecule of hydrogen is a matter. It is a material. It has a mass. It has a molecular weight. It has molecular weight of 2 as compared to other elements. But that single molecule of hydrogen is just a combination of '4 elements'. Anything that have physical mass are made up of 4 elements. These are physical matters. These are material matters. Pasaada ruupa are material matters. But they are not physical. But they all have to depend on physical matters. Without physical matters there cannot be any pasaada ruupa. Without cloth, there is no painting, without paper there is no print. Without physical body there is no gesture. So pasaada ruupa all have to depend on physical matters. So no ear, no cochlea implant there is no hearing. But even when there are ears or cochlea implant there may or may not be hearing. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-07-2005 01:56 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Re. body consciousness of breath rupas and mindfulness of breath rupas, > can we say mindfulness (sati) generates an intention to be conscious of > breath rupas? ----- N: I would say, when sati arises it is non-forgetful, mindful of breath. There are conditions for its arising, it does not generate anything, it arises and it is simply aware. L: If so, then mindfulness of breath rupas is an intentional > body consciousness generated by mindfulness. ------ N: When we say body-consciousness, this is only a vipaakacitta experiencing a tangible object. It just experiences that, it is passive, it does not know any characteristic of breath. -------- L: Assuming that is correct, > what is the difference between a desirous intention and a mindfulness > intention to be conscious of an object? ------- N: desirous intention: someone may think that he has to do something in order to have sati. Going here, going there, doing this, doing that, we can find out that this is mostly motivated by lobha. No wonder, we are in the cycle because of ignorance and craving. A person may be so taken in by lobha, that he does not like to hear about his deepest motives. Moreover, lobha can be very subtle. You say: mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. Nina. 47656 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 171 and Tiika. Dosa. nilovg Hi Larry, op 14-07-2005 02:11 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > One more thought on dosa. Can we say there are only three possible > responses to painful feeling, insight, hatred, or bewilderment? ---- N: Aversion is likely to arise, and this goes together with ignorance. When there is right attention to the object, there can be insight that realizes the characteristic of feeling. But, when one is not that far yet, there can be thinking with kusala citta and understanding of the level of listening, not yet direct understanding. Nina. 47657 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:01am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Howard, and all > Phil, what you wrote here made me think of something related that I have > observed: One benefit that I have observed in hearing, reading, and mulling > over the Dhamma is an effect that this has at times that one is *not* hearing, > reading, and mulling it over. I believe that there is a lot of subliminal > mental processing of material previously experienced that leaves mental traces, > some useful, some harmful depending especially on the nature of the original > material (but of course also on one's deep-seated inclinations). Ph: No doubt about it, Howard. I remember when I was keen on Thich Nhat Hahn he wrote something that really stuck with me - "when you are upset, it is because of something you consumed." > Dhammic material usually results in wholesome, useful traces which often > express themselves as follows: One may be going about one's day-to- day life > observing all sorts of things arising, some pleasant, some not, and the observed > phenomena trigger mental responses. Often, if one has made it a habit to > frequently hear, read, and mull over Dhamma, the response to the observed > phenomenon that is triggered is not the common one of craving or aversion or mental > proliferation, but instead is a brief recollection of a wonderfully relevant > element of Dhamma or even a fresh Dhamma-based or Dhamma- compatible insight that > prompts a response of equanimity, satisfaction, joy, and understanding. This > is a matter that I have directly observed and is a point often made by several > DSG folks. It is a valid and important point, I believe. No doubt about it. Of course, when we remember that there are so many other conditions at work - usually propelling us (me at least) in subtle or not so subtle akusala direction - we are protected from having exccessive faith in the conditioning power of reading suttas, listening to talks etc. But there is no doubt that wisdom does arise to steer us in the right direction in daily life. No doubt. > Clearly, as you know by now, I also think that this process is > *essentially* supported by all the rest of the practice taught by the Buddha, including > intentional cultivation of sila, intentional guarding of the senses - > particularly cultivating relinquishment, the sine qua non of dhamma practice, > intentional recollection to be mindful in ordinary living, and, yes, very importantly, > regular "formal meditation". I believe the conditions for people to benefit from "formal meditation" and other seemingly intentional practices (actually conditioned) do indeed arise. Take Kom. He meditated, then had the chance to hear A. Sujin and saw through the error of meditating without right understanding of what was behind it, and now conditions have developed for him in a way that has him ordaining, and presumably meditating again, with better understanding. Perhaps they will change again, who knows? Perhaps I will meditate some day too. I am meeting Rob M for the first time next week. Maybe meeting and talking to him will be a decisive condition for becoming a meditator the way meeting Rob K was for deepening my enthusiasm for Abhidhamma. We have no way of knowing how conditions will work out. A ramble there. >But my main point in this post is to zero in on > the importance of hearing, reading, and contemplating the Dhamma. It is the > seed that all the rest waters and brings to fruition. Yes, I like these gardeing metaphors. I would say Dhamma is the rain that falls on the parched soil of our minds and waters the seed that is understanding - I stole that from Thich Nhat Hahn. We listen and listen and read and read and reflect and the rain of Dhamma falls but we don't go out in the field and try to push the plants to grow - if we do, they won't grow. Metta, Phil 47658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, op 13-07-2005 15:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > You wrote, "Vitakka is often translated as applied thought.", but what > about thinking? What about vicara? ------ N: Vicara arises together with vitakka in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere. It is translated as sustained or discursive thinking. It keeps the citta occupied with the object. Those are words to describe their different functions, but they are hard to pinpoint. They teach us that citta needs many cetasikas to cognize an object. They are different from moment to moment, they can be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. ------- T: Are vitakka & vicara the product of thinking, or is thinking the outcome > of vitakka & vicara, or does thinking have nothing to do with "thought"? ------ N: When we use the word thinking this denotes many different different cittas cognizing different objects, and mostly we mean concepts. We are thinking of a situation or event. Also during such moments vitakka and vicara perform their functions. But they also accompany cittas such as the sense-door adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness, cittas which have as object a rupa. Thus vitakka and vicara are not the same as thinking in conventional sense. They arise with the citta also when we are not thinking of concepts. ------- T:> More important, is thinking necessary and sufficient for conditioning > insight knowledges? Is thinking important in vipassana? ----- N: I would like to stress understanding. Considering the Dhamma with understanding. When listening, there can be wise reflection, and also mindfulness of nama and rupa if there are the right conditions, such as in the Buddha's time. They listened to him and, we read, they attained enlightenment. That means: also when listening they developed satipatthana. Nobody can tell what is sufficient for a particular person. We do not know our past lives, we do not know the accumulated conditions of each one of us. Nina. 47659 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/14/05 10:04:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard, and all > Phil, what you wrote here made me think of something related that I have > observed: One benefit that I have observed in hearing, reading, and mulling > over the Dhamma is an effect that this has at times that one is *not* hearing, > reading, and mulling it over. I believe that there is a lot of subliminal > mental processing of material previously experienced that leaves mental traces, > some useful, some harmful depending especially on the nature of the original > material (but of course also on one's deep-seated inclinations). Ph: No doubt about it, Howard. I remember when I was keen on Thich Nhat Hahn he wrote something that really stuck with me - "when you are upset, it is because of something you consumed." > Dhammic material usually results in wholesome, useful traces which often > express themselves as follows: One may be going about one's day-to- day life > observing all sorts of things arising, some pleasant, some not, and the observed > phenomena trigger mental responses. Often, if one has made it a habit to > frequently hear, read, and mull over Dhamma, the response to the observed > phenomenon that is triggered is not the common one of craving or aversion or mental > proliferation, but instead is a brief recollection of a wonderfully relevant > element of Dhamma or even a fresh Dhamma-based or Dhamma- compatible insight that > prompts a response of equanimity, satisfaction, joy, and understanding. This > is a matter that I have directly observed and is a point often made by several > DSG folks. It is a valid and important point, I believe. No doubt about it. Of course, when we remember that there are so many other conditions at work - usually propelling us (me at least) in subtle or not so subtle akusala direction - we are protected from having exccessive faith in the conditioning power of reading suttas, listening to talks etc. But there is no doubt that wisdom does arise to steer us in the right direction in daily life. No doubt. > Clearly, as you know by now, I also think that this process is > *essentially* supported by all the rest of the practice taught by the Buddha, including > intentional cultivation of sila, intentional guarding of the senses - > particularly cultivating relinquishment, the sine qua non of dhamma practice, > intentional recollection to be mindful in ordinary living, and, yes, very importantly, > regular "formal meditation". I believe the conditions for people to benefit from "formal meditation" and other seemingly intentional practices (actually conditioned) do indeed arise. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Being conditioned doesn't exclude being conditioned in part by intention. Kamma is intention. Kusala kamma is kusala intention. ---------------------------------------- Take Kom. He meditated, then had the chance to hear A. Sujin and saw through the error of meditating without right understanding of what was behind it, and now conditions have developed for him in a way that has him ordaining, and presumably meditating again, with better understanding. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is wonderful that Kom is going forth! I do indeed hope that it will afford him the opportunity to return to meditation. --------------------------------------- Perhaps they will change again, who knows? Perhaps I will meditate some day too. -------------------------------------- Howard: Decision making does play a role in that, you know! ;-) ------------------------------------- I am meeting Rob M for the first time next week. Maybe meeting and talking to him will be a decisive condition for becoming a meditator the way meeting Rob K was for deepening my enthusiasm for Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------ Howard: I've gained enormously from my contacts, regretfully not in person, with both these "Robs" ;-), and I wish the same gain for you. ---------------------------------- We have no way of knowing how conditions will work out. A ramble there. >But my main point in this post is to zero in on > the importance of hearing, reading, and contemplating the Dhamma. It is the > seed that all the rest waters and brings to fruition. Yes, I like these gardeing metaphors. I would say Dhamma is the rain that falls on the parched soil of our minds and waters the seed that is understanding - I stole that from Thich Nhat Hahn. We listen and listen and read and read and reflect and the rain of Dhamma falls but we don't go out in the field and try to push the plants to grow - if we do, they won't grow. Metta, Phil ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47660 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Rob K, Nina,and all I have let this one sit for a few days as I was hearing a fair bit about detachment in the talks. Of course my intention was not to catch A. Sujin in an error, though I did want to do that for some reason when I first started listening to her. Things have changed! :) I will respond to Rob and then have added what Nina wrote in another response I will try to avoid rambling as its just about bedtime. > > Ph; One thing I heard in a tape that puzzled me was when A. Sujin > > said "there must be detachment from the beginning." I don't > > know how there can be detachment from the beginning. > ++++++++++ > Dear Phil, > I don't think there was any error in wording by A. Sujin. > The path is always associated with alobha- detachment- and wisdom. > If it is not it is something else, some other path. This is even at > the very weakest level, when detachment and wisdom may be weak. Ph: "Associated with" suggests in principle, intellectually, and yes that is true, for sure. All we have to do is remember that the Buddha almost didn't teach because he knew it went against the way of the world, which is attachment and clinging. So yes, absolutely, in principle Dhamma must be about detachment. But as for the arising of actual detachment, of the cetasika alobha, it is so weak, as you said, so rare. I was going to quote it but I will just paraphrase the stirring talk that A. Sujin gives at the very beginning of the India talks (available in the files) at Bodhgaya. The way there is "always" (her word) ignorance arising after a moment of seeing. Always lobha, always clinging to people and things. Of course there are "holes in the roof of lobha" that the mind builds, but they are are very few and very far between. So when A. Sujin says that "there must be detachment from the beginning" I think she means "there must be an intellectual appreciation of detachment from the beginning" rather than actual detachment, "or there can be moments of detachment from the beginnning" or something like that. Otherwise we are encouraged to try to have something that we cannot have yet. I heard a great line today from her: "you can't have something that you haven't accumulated." We haven't accumulated much detachment, at least I haven't. So there cannot be much detachment yet, only thinking about detachment. But that is a good place to start. > N: I add something to what Rob said. I think it is helpful to understand first the difference between sati and forgetfulness. Difficult point, for me too! I like to discuss this. Perhaps you can add. We are usually forgetful while we walk around, looking at the table, or a cup, or a diamond. When our objective is not dana, sila or mental development, we think with akusala citta, mostly with lobha. But our listening to tapes, discussions or reading of suttas may have sunk in and can condition unexpectedly a moment of understanding one object through one doorway. Ph: This is like what Howard was saying. Indeed the listening has sunk in and may bear fruit. In my case, I don't feel it's one object through one doorway yet but that may be coming closer, who knows. And maybe there has been that. But there is intelletual detachment that arises, strong and clear. Like when I heard A. Sujin talking soon after I heard about my mother's illness. That will stick with me. A. Sujin became my teacher on that day, rather than an especially talkative member of the Bangkok talks! It was intellectual, I think, but so clear. I was jogging at the time, listening to the talk. On a wide open sports field, facing the sun, with the endorphins flowing as well. Ping! It was so clear. Now, how about later in daily life, when I'm sitting with an annoying student or co-worker, or a sexually attractive one, or am tired, or hungry or scared? If there is an understanding of one object through one door, that is true detachment, but if there is reflecting on metta, or the woman being my sister, or something like that, it is so conceptual. I remember asking Rob K why similes for the khandas such as deceitful servant or illness or so on were necessary. Why not go more directly to something more elemental? Because we are not there yet, I guess. Rambling. Nina: Then there is a level of sati, sati with intellectual understanding stemming from listening, or sati with direct understanding. It does not matter and if we mind, there is lobha to an idea we have of sati. Ph: Ah, interesting. Yes, when i first came to DSG I used to wonder about the levels of sati and ask about it. But it is one of the things that we don't need to try to figure out. We know what we *can* and *do* know, at any one moment, not what we want to know because we think it is necessary to make progress. I will still wonder at times and ask, as I did about sati and panna today. (Thanks for your answer there, Nina. I will note it.) Nina: When we begin to realize that it is only visible object that can be seen, not a diamond, there is some detachment at that moment. Someone bluntly said: satipatthana takes the spice out of life. Ph: It's sobering, that's for sure. We don't get swept up in enthusiasms to the same degree. But that's OK. BTW, something I've wanted to ask, not that it really matters. In one of the older talks, Christine mentions this, or Sarah quotes her, about how Dhamma seems to take the spice out of life. Some man answers her very eloquently that that won't because our minds are running in a conditioned way and the stories will keep arising whether we want them to or not. Who was that masked man? He's the same fellow who talks to the German meditator using a car metaphor. I really find the way he talks very stirring, but he doesn't show up very often in the talks. Who cares, right? The point is the understanding, not the people involved, but... Well, I will stop there. My beloved New York Yankees are playing the hated Boston Red Sox this weekend so I will proably disappear until Monday. Baseball is the only thing that is more important than the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Phil 47661 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 7/14/05 10:39:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep, op 13-07-2005 15:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > You wrote, "Vitakka is often translated as applied thought.", but what > about thinking? What about vicara? ------ N: Vicara arises together with vitakka in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere. It is translated as sustained or discursive thinking. It keeps the citta occupied with the object. Those are words to describe their different functions, but they are hard to pinpoint. They teach us that citta needs many cetasikas to cognize an object. They are different from moment to moment, they can be kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaaka. ------- T: Are vitakka & vicara the product of thinking, or is thinking the outcome > of vitakka & vicara, or does thinking have nothing to do with "thought"? ------ N: When we use the word thinking this denotes many different different cittas cognizing different objects, and mostly we mean concepts. We are thinking of a situation or event. Also during such moments vitakka and vicara perform their functions. But they also accompany cittas such as the sense-door adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness, cittas which have as object a rupa. Thus vitakka and vicara are not the same as thinking in conventional sense. They arise with the citta also when we are not thinking of concepts. ------- T:> More important, is thinking necessary and sufficient for conditioning > insight knowledges? Is thinking important in vipassana? ----- N: I would like to stress understanding. Considering the Dhamma with understanding. When listening, there can be wise reflection, and also mindfulness of nama and rupa if there are the right conditions, such as in the Buddha's time. They listened to him and, we read, they attained enlightenment. That means: also when listening they developed satipatthana. Nobody can tell what is sufficient for a particular person. We do not know our past lives, we do not know the accumulated conditions of each one of us. Nina. ============================ In the context of the jhanas I've seen vitakka described as an initial application of attention to the meditation object (like a "hitting against") and vicara described as a sustained application of attention (like a "rubbing against"), with "thinking" not being involved at all. This understanding rings true to me on the basis of my meditative experience in that the initial hitting against and subseqent rubbing against are events that actually occur and that lead onwards to calmness and clarity, and these operations will actually be subverted by thinking. So, in particular I'm disinclined to view vicara as discursive thinking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47662 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:14am Subject: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Sarah, > When you meet Kh Sujin in August I have so specific questions, [...] [...snap] > This is followed by hearing, receiving-consciousness, > determining-consciousness and the other cittas arising in processes. Saññaa > accompanies each citta and marks the sound. Since saññaa marks the object > from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? > The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of ignorance.> > Nina. Hi Nina and Sarah, I would have one follow up question to you Nina. What are these pictures-memories-recollections of sanna marks which go through this mind one after another? I observe kind of "picture-flashes" triggering various reactions, and I am curious in mechanism of this thing. with respect, Agrios 47663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) nilovg Hi Phil (and Howard), op 14-07-2005 14:12 schreef Philip op philco777@...:> And the way certain > things people say (usually Acharn Sujin) leap out and catch my > attention. I stop the i-pod, and stand wherever I am to jot it down > in a notebook, sometimes on a crowded sidewalk in the middle of > Tokyo with people streaming by. I know that's a kind of greediness > and clinging for results, but so be it. ------- N: You listen to have more understanding. You jot down so that you do not forget. I do the same when we have a long walk, I have paper and pencil and jot down what I reflect on, otherwise it goes with the wind. I reflect on the mails I have to asnwer, not so easy and as James said, quite a responsibility. Do not take it that it is only attachment, but of course there is attachment in between: we like to write, we like to see, to hear, to be alive. But Howard expressed it so well: ------- Ph: > Another interesting thing is the quality of voice. I think reading > a post by someone is not as convincing as hearing them say it out > loud,.... > But anyone who hasn't listened to Acharn Sujin definitely should. -------- N: Yes, I realized this when transcribing tape. When you hear her say: we are always in danger of ignorance, it has much more impact. Such earnestness and sense of urgency and said with true compassion. Never in order to win an argument. Nina. 47664 From: nina Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:39am Subject: life faculty rupa, femininity and masculinity nilovg Hi Howard, in an aside to Herman you mentioned that you find life faculty, femininity and masculinity difficult to understand. Yes, of course, they are subtle rupas. The Visuddhimagga states that subtle rupas are hard to penetrate. They are different from the coarse rupas such as the sense objects and sense bases. Perhaps it may be useful to consider the following points, or perhaps you may not find them relevant, it does not matter, I post it anyway. I find it helpful to study these rupas because the study helps me to see more conditions for my life and this will lead to less clinging to self. These three rupas are originated by kamma. At the first moment of our life (here in the human plane) kamma produced together with the rebirth-consciousness three groups of rupas: one with bodysense, one with sex, one with the heartbase, the physical base for cittas. In each group there is the rupa life faculty to support the group. Later on Kamma rpoduces eyesense and the other senses and in each group there is life faculty. This rupa makes the body so different from dead matter, such as a table. The femininity and masculinity rupa are of great influence to our life, our appearance, our occupations, conduct, etc. We read in the Co, to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A.): It pervades the whole body. But it arises and falls away just like all the other rupas. The sex rupas and life faculty are conditioned by kamma and so fragile. When kamma no longer produces rupas of this body I am a corpse. I cling to my appearance as a woman, I cling to life. All the conditioning factors that keep this body going are in a very delicate balance. Some rupas are originated by kamma, some by citta, some by nutrition and some by heat. All these rupas fall away and so long as there are conditions they are replaced. Before we know the body we cling to collapses. Again, the study of rupas helps us to have a sense of urgency. Nina. 47665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Howard, never mind about the names. The Vis. describes them as jhanafactors and there vicara is more subtle, vitakka is coarse and the meditator needs them in the beginninmg, but not in the higher jhanas when there is more calm. Vicara is subsequently abandoned, but some people can abandon both at the second stage of jhana. Nina. op 14-07-2005 16:51 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > This understanding rings > true to me on the basis of my meditative experience in that the initial > hitting > against and subseqent rubbing against are events that actually occur and that > lead onwards to calmness and clarity, and these operations will actually be > subverted by thinking. So, in particular I'm disinclined to view vicara as > discursive thinking. 47666 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon ksheri3 Evan, not very tricky, you can do better than that. "As still as the rock" oh are you sooooooo into this "a priori" devotion to ego and creationism, a single point where the world emanates from and is dependent upon. Are you hiding in the Reagan-Bush-Limbaugh admins. could possibly be a member of the Liddy admin. The "rock" as a symbol of "purity" and how does this work with glass housing? Is purity symbolized as a rock and where can I find this representation? Maybe the castles of the Crusaders are you reference, sorry I rode with the Mongols so we didn't have such luxuries. ... As I said Evan, you can do better than that. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hi Colette, > > colette: ever go whitewater rafting or zodiak rafting? We can pressume > that the Stream of Consciousness is a peacfule ride huh? > What causes, in the buddhist tradition of Dependent Causation, the > ripple in the smooth surface of the conscious stream? Could it be Bam > Bam or is it Pebbles? Do they flow in the stream or are they stagnant, > crystalized to, secure to, the bottom where you surely can find cat- fish > and other bottom feeders? Don't you find it interesting that kamma would > be issued to a rock or a pebble forcing that rock or pebble to the > bottom where it is to interupt the Stream of Consciousness? Is the rock > or pebble aware of the kamma? In some people's case they act as > deterents to competing for the limitation of money, of power, and that > of taking the power and money away from a status quo. Still, if a > persons tries to act as a rock or pebble then they are playing the game > of deception where we find the sheep's clothing adorned on a wolf. > Surely that person is subject to the most horrendous of kamma, then, > because of their deception i.e. the webs we weave..., the 3 Kelipothic > nogah (3 qliphothic evils not to be approached by man), All The Kings > Men, etc. > ------------------------------- > For one that has made ones mind as still as a rock, there is no > deception. There is purity. Nor is it stagnant - it is clear and bright. > > > > > > Ignorance to Buddhism is lack of understanding the 4 Noble Truths as > > they relate to each of the links of dependent origination. This is a > > finite (although very difficult) task leading to peace and > cessation. It > > is not pursuit of knowledge alone that leads to this but practicle > > experience. The pursuit of this path is not hindered by lack or > > abundance of money. Bhikkhus who of course have little possessions > > attain this path and rich followers of the Buddha in his time also > were > > able to attain some of the path and fruits. > > colette: <....> > You are suggesting a wonderful idea, so original, and who could have > ever thought of it: only have a single goal and repeat the same message > over & over & over &... <...> do you suggest that the Bhikkhus path is > the only path and that it is that path which should be the path everyone > fallows or pursues? <....> > --------------------------- > There is no point in originality when the Buddha has expounded this > Dhamma so perfectly. Repetition is a tool used in the suttas to get the > message across. colette: who said anything wrong or incorrect about using the technique? I know I do it, have done it and will continue to apply the same technique in the future. I simply wanted to call attention to the fact that what people are doing is ritual behavior. Every morning when you go to work, this is ritual behavior. Identify it, accept it, but don't go running around trying to pull the wool over my eyes saying that it is something other. See, that behavior of atttempting to put the sheeps clothing onto me is a hostile behavior and will be met with the same or greater hostility, in defense of my freedom and individuality. gots to go. toodles, colette 47667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: driving a car and sati. nilovg Hi Herman, op 14-07-2005 00:20 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > > Is a moment of satipatthana the same as a moment of not papanca(ing)? ------ N: The papancas, proliferations are: clinging without wrong view, clinging with wrong view and clinging with conceit. These arise only with akusala citta. When there is dana, sila or mental development, the citta is kusala, and thus no papancas. When you are thinking and the objective is not dana, sila or mental development the citta is akusala, but not necessarily citta with papancas, although there are many, many moments of clinging. There may also be dosa or fear, these are not papancas. Thus, a moment of satipatthana is not the same as a moment of not papanca, but the papanca has no chance at the moment of satipatthana. BTW, I hope you will write a report of your meeting with Sarah and Jon and of your conversation. Nina. 47668 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon Evan_Stamato... Colette, Evan, not very tricky, you can do better than that. "As still as the rock" oh are you sooooooo into this "a priori" devotion to ego and creationism, a single point where the world emanates from and is dependent upon. Are you hiding in the Reagan-Bush-Limbaugh admins. could possibly be a member of the Liddy admin. The "rock" as a symbol of "purity" and how does this work with glass housing? Is purity symbolized as a rock and where can I find this representation? Maybe the castles of the Crusaders are you reference, sorry I rode with the Mongols so we didn't have such luxuries. ... As I said Evan, you can do better than that. -------------------------------------- The rock is steady. The mind once it gains its steadyness is also like a rock. That is all I need to say about that. -------------------------------------- colette: who said anything wrong or incorrect about using the technique? I know I do it, have done it and will continue to apply the same technique in the future. I simply wanted to call attention to the fact that what people are doing is ritual behavior. Every morning when you go to work, this is ritual behavior. Identify it, accept it, but don't go running around trying to pull the wool over my eyes saying that it is something other. See, that behavior of atttempting to put the sheeps clothing onto me is a hostile behavior and will be met with the same or greater hostility, in defense of my freedom and individuality. gots to go. toodles, colette -------------------------------------- Since the dhammapada adequately addresses the issue of a response to a perceived aggression, I shall quote it in answer to the above: "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. Dhammapada 3-5 Translated by Ven Buddharakkhita (www.metta.lk) With Metta, Evan 47669 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, Thank you again. == > Herman: > > Is the sensitive base produced in the ear or anywhere in the body at > all? (Does it have ear as necessary condition?) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Herman. They are necessary. This means 'without them there is no > hearing'. But what we have to notice is that 'with them there may or > may not be hearing'. > > I mean 'hearing-consciousness' or 'ear-consciousness' > or 'sotavinnaana citta'. Example: You do have both working ear. But > you do not hear all the time. > > Cakkhu-ppasada arises when you hear. > == OK. Understood. But this does not explain that ear, or cochlear implant, is not ayatana (sense base). If a skillful surgeon were to implant an orange peel into a deaf man's skull, and skillfully connect it to the brain, there would never be hearing. Orange peel is not sense-base. Ear and cochlear implant in a living body allow for both hearing and listening.( I appreciate that you previously made mention of how hearing is to be defined.) I appreciate that I do not *listen* all the time, even though I have two very nice ears :-). But whether I *hear* all the time or not is not a matter of or for awareness. That needs to be deduced by other means. For myself, I have no doubt that I heard well before I was born, and even learned to attend to my mothers voice while still in the womb. So to sum up, I am focusing on the paramattha dhamma of sense base, not pasada rupa. Whether there is sense base when there is no hearing is not the question. The question is, when there is hearing via cochlear implant, is that the sense-base? Kind Regards Herman 47670 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the b egberdina Hi Colette and (Evan), > > colette: who said anything wrong or incorrect about using the > technique? I know I do it, have done it and will continue to apply > the same technique in the future. I simply wanted to call attention > to the fact that what people are doing is ritual behavior. Every > morning when you go to work, this is ritual behavior. Identify it, > accept it, but don't go running around trying to pull the wool over > my eyes saying that it is something other. See, that behavior of > atttempting to put the sheeps clothing onto me is a hostile behavior > and will be met with the same or greater hostility, in defense of my > freedom and individuality. > I accept that you perceive hostility, but you may be interested to know that I don't. It is not a matter of who is right or wrong in their beliefs, but more a matter of how we are all caught in our home-spun web of beliefs. What would happen if we stopped spinning, even for a sec? Kind Regards Herman 47671 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Nina: "When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful." Hi Nina, First, let's agree that understanding (paññaa) is rare but mindfulness (sati) is not so rare. To me, mindfulness remembers to be conscious of the object (or simply "presence") but doesn't particularly understand anything. And then a body consciousness follows (in the case of mindfulness of breathing). There is nothing particularly profound about this consciousness except that it is consciousness of a reality and one-pointedness is evident. And it seems to me that the arising of this consciousness is conditioned by intentionality although a body consciousness highlighted by one-pointedness could arise spontaneously. But I don't see that mindfulness is playing a role in that case, unless it is to intentionally prolong one-pointed consciousness by repitition. What does mindfulness remember if not remember to be conscious in a certain way (thereby necessitating intention)? At the moment I am leaning toward the idea that understanding (paññaa) conditions the manifestation of the body consciousness so that elemental nature (sabhava) is revealed directly through body consciousness. If understanding arises after the body consciousness, the understanding is more like a commentary and that seems somewhat unsatisfactory to me in terms of direct experience. Although it may make sense to say the three general characteristics are recognized after the subsiding of body consciousness. I'm going to look in Vism. to see if I can find some more clues. Larry 47672 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? Evan_Stamato... Hi Htoo, There is sense base, there is sense object. When sense base and sense object come together, sense consciousness arises. This is contact. This is what I have understood from the suttas and books I have read on the subject. Do you mean to tell me that somewhere in-between this process ther is another thing called a pasada ruupa? I still don't understand how pasada ruupa fits in with the process of contact. With Metta, Evan 47673 From: "Egbert" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Sutta name egberdina Hi everyone, Does the following sutta go by any other name. I would like to be able to compare this translation with others. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/a_little_spell_of_emptiness.htm Kind Regards Herman 47674 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Howard {Attn. Ven. Samahita, Larry, Mike} - Thank you Nina for the answers, from the Abhidhamma perspective, to my (many) questions on vitakka & vicara, thinking & thought . Thank you, Howard, I am glad to read your comment that is purely based on meditative experience. I do appreciate both perspectives. Your answers in #47658, Nina, that I like a lot, are as follows. Nina's perspective: # Vicara arises together with vitakka in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere. It keeps the citta occupied with the object. .... citta needs many cetasikas to cognize an object. # When we use the word thinking this denotes many different different cittas cognizing different objects, and mostly we mean concepts. We are thinking of a situation or event. # Vitakka and vicara are not the same as thinking in conventional sense. They arise with the citta also when we are not thinking of concepts. Howard's 3 points (#47661): (1) >In the context of the jhanas I've seen vitakka described as an initial >application of attention to the meditation object (like a "hitting >against") and vicara described as a sustained application of attention >(like a "rubbing against"), with "thinking" not being involved at all. (2) >This understanding rings true to me on the basis of my meditative >experience in that the initial hitting against and subseqent rubbing against >are events that actually occur and that lead onwards to calmness and >clarity, and these operations will actually be subverted by thinking. Tep: This is also true with my experience: vitakka & vicara during a concentration practice (such as the 1st tetrad of anapanasati) is very much like the deep attention required in reading a profound sutta. Calmness leads to clarity of understanding without thinking out in words. This kind of understanding is similar to sampajanna. (3) >So, in particular I'm disinclined to view vicara as discursive thinking. Tep : Yes, Howard. The connotation of the word "discursive thinking" is that it produces wandering or rambling thoughts, and hence it is not the same as 'vicara' the jhana factor. Nina(#47665): >Never mind about the names. The Vis. describes them as >jhanafactors and there vicara is more subtle, vitakka is coarse >and the meditator needs them in the beginning, but not in the higher >jhanas when there is more calm. Tep: An unusually knowledgable and highly experienced Thai Forest monk (who probably did not read the Visuddhimagga) was onced asked to explain mind-object(dhammaarammana) and thinking. He said that vedana-khandha, sanna-khandha, and sankhara-khandha were mind objects. Thinking, he said, was the 11 annasamaana cetasika (phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samaadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, vicaara, adhimokkha, viriya, piti, chanda). And he added that although the 50 cetasika were defined as 'sankhara-khandha', only these 11 cetasika were "true" sankhara-khandha, and that they had to be known by the meditator as dukkha. What is your thought on the monk's remarks? Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > never mind about the names. The Vis. describes them as 47675 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta name lbidd2 Hi Herman, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html Larry 47676 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta name upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/14/05 7:50:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi everyone, Does the following sutta go by any other name. I would like to be able to compare this translation with others. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/a_little _spell_of_emptiness.htm Kind Regards Herman ============================= I believe it may be MN 121, The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness, which you can find at the following ATI url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47677 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:52pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 248 - Attachment/lobha (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha)] Akusala dhammas are altogether different from kusala dhammas. Akusala dhammas are impure, they are dangerous and they lead to sorrow. As we have seen, there are four akusala cetasikas which arise with every akusala citta: moha (ignorance), ahirika (shamelessness), anottappa (recklessness) and uddhacca (restlessness). Apart from these four akusala cetasikas there are several other akusala cetasikas which can accompany akusala citta. Lobha, attachment or greed, is another akusala cetasika. Lobha does not arise with every akusala citta, it can arise only with eight types of citta, the eight types of lobha-múla-citta(1). Lobha is a “root”, hetu. The lobha-múla-cittas have both moha and lobha as their roots. The Dhammasangaùi (§1059), in the section where it deals with lobha as hetu, gives a long list of different names for lobha in order to illustrate its different shades and aspects. Lobha is compared to a creeper, it strangles its victim such as a creeper strangles a tree. It is like the ocean, it is insatiable. Lobha can be coarse or it can be more subtle such as hoping or expecting. It is a “bondage” because it binds beings in the round of births. It is a depravity because it corrupts the mind(2). *** 1) See my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter IV. 2)See the Atthasåliní II, Book II, Chapter II, 362-367. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47678 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, additions./ Sarah sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Tep, James, RobK & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > tepsastri@... quotes Sarah as saying: > I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that even the majority of > those who became enlightened did so using jhana as a basis. Even for > Sariputta, I don't believe this is indicated in the text? > and replies to this by quoting the Anupada Sutta, which I agree > unequivocally > shows the role jhanas played in Sariputtas full awakening. .... S: I don' think there's any question about 'the role jhanas played' as such, but about whether the texts state in this case they were used as basis for the attainment of arahantship (although I had previously been referring to his attainment of sotapatti magga). I listened again to A.Sujin's comment and I think she is questioning whether there's any categorical statement to indicate jhanas as basis for arahantship. As we know, processes of cittas are extremely rapid and unless the process with lokuttara cittas immediately succeeds that with jhana cittas, the latter cannot be said to be used as basis. When the lokuttara cittas arise in the case of a great disciple, all the special powers and abilities of being such (in this case, the first disciple)automatically follow. BB's commentary note to the Anupada sutta says 'The Elder Sariputta cultivated serenity and insight in paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he entered the attainment of cessation, and after emerging from it he attained arahantship.' I'm also thinking of the quote James gave from Theragatta 995,996 about how Sariputta said he gained released whilst listening. As you, Howard, and others have streseed, whilst fanning the Buddha he was slipping in and out of jhanas*, but as James also said Sariputta also emphasised 'it was his listening to the Dhamma-preaching, directly from the Buddha, which caused his release.' I'll follow this up again with K.Sujin, but I think her point was that unless it clearly states a jhana was used as basis, we can't assume this. Btw, Howard, unsurprisingly, I'm not one who doubts the Anupada Sutta, but I'm certainly not wise enough to appreciate the fine details even intellectually. Metta, Sarah *also see RobK's earlier message on this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38587 47679 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Herman, Kel, RobK, Tep), --- upasaka@... wrote: >Herman: But I think that > some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in > the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions > are remarkably anatomical. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Aha! Suddenly an Abhidhammika, eh? ;-)) > --------------------------------------- .... S: I think he's preparing for a good discussion in the Botanical gardens in Sydney :-)). We hope to also meet Antony Woods in Sydney too and just possibly Evan if he can get to Sydney (no special Pali terms required, Evan!). Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks Kel, RobK & others for assuring Herman he can drive safely and develop sati. Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana and the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested in your comments too. ========= 47680 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: Sutta name christine_fo... Hello Herman, Thanks for posting Michael Olds' translation, it was nice to read it again. He created the Buddhadust site which he has chosen to permanently take down. Disappointing - as it was a valuable and refreshing resource, and visited regularly by many of us. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Does the following sutta go by any other name. I would like to be able > to compare this translation with others. > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/a _little_spell_of_emptiness.htm > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman 47681 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171 sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > Ph; Yes, I certainly see what you mean. I also see what the woman > who responded means. (I keep forgetting her name) ... S: I forget the spelling, but her name is pronounced 'Sangjun'. She was a colleage of Jon's at Thammasat Uni where he worked when he lived in Bkk. She's still there. He introduced her to A.Sujin back in the 70s but after he left Bkk, she studied various meditations with other teachers until recently when she started studying with A.Sujin again. The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I presume, whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG last year as Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him to post again. If you have any message for him, Sukin can make sure he sees it! Ell is his wife who you hear on the Sri lanka tapes. .... > She said - and I'm sure we'd all agree - that there can > be moments of right understanding that arise in amougst the wrong > view. .... S: yes, we'd all agree. .... >like the lotus, conditions permitting. And as I said > in the last post, even people who do not have the necessary > conditions for panna to develop and therefore stay submerged in > wrong view practices...they can benefit from the general atmosphere > of harmlessness that pervades even the most adulterated form of > Dhamma, I think. .... S: If the 'most adulterated form of Dhamma' is wrong view, I don't think it's harmless at all. However sweet-sounding it may seem and however metta-filled those who espouse it may seem, if it's encouraging wrong view, it's not harmless imho. .... > Have a great trip, and thanks again for the recorded talks, and all > you've been doing here. And thanks also to Jon. The other day Naomi > called him "Kamome (pr. Kah mo may) no Jonathan", which is the > Japanese title for "Jonathan Livingston Seagull." She knows him > especially from his introductions to each talk ("participants > include...") which she says sound very solemn and urgent, like for a > group of NASA and other experts getting together to discuss a plan > to prevent Earth from being destroyed by a comet or > something.... :) .... S: thanks for the good wishes....the departure is a little delayed now b.c of Jon's work and full flights. Mon week. Pls tell Naomi that I hope she gets past the introductions. Also, pls tell her now that we're all in trouble because I laughed a little at your Nasa comments and now he suggests I'd better do the introductions...:/) Btw, the names given are pretty well as they 'appear', so make a note at the beginning if you're interested to know. There's a great little Abhidhamma intro that K.Sujin gives at the beginning of the Colombo tape if anyone is interested (then it goes into a really advanced, technical question, before eventually ending up with the transplant and worm for Herman). Ranil and Sumane were from DSG, but they haven't posted for a long time. Metta, Sarah ======== 47682 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, Thank you again. == Herman: So to sum up, I am focusing on the paramattha dhamma of sense base, not pasada rupa. Whether there is sense base when there is no hearing is not the question. The question is, when there is hearing via cochlear implant, is that the sense-base? Kind Regards Herman -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: You seem to be binding me with tie. I would say if there is sotavinnaana citta then there is the sense-base called sotaayatana. Hearing is not 'a pin-point word' for sotavinnaana citta. Because as you as you hear 'there have already been many constructions on ideas, beliefs, memories, and many other things'. So to be exact a) If there is sotavinnaana citta, at the same time there are also saddaayatana and sotaayatana. Saddaayatana is sound-sense-base and sotaayatana is ear-sense-base. b) If there is no sotavinnaana citta there may or may not be saddaayatana and sotaayatana. Hearing is a general concept. Even it is possible to perceive hearing related matters into your brain through microchips and electrical devices. The ears what you can see and the cochlea implant what you can see is not sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. Both are just names and they are pannatti. What you see are all visual objects. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47683 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Now for Sarah and "Setting rolling The Wheel of Truth" > > If we notice the connection here with the Abhidhamma there might be > some light shed on both documents and a deeper understanding. ... S: yes, that's how I see it. ... > So in Samyutta Nikay LVI.11 "...Wheel of Truth" we find > > "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is > remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relingquishing, letting > go and rejecting, of that same craving." > > I once had rooms of fine furniture, china, crystal, blah blah blah > that I got from my youth, upbringing, but one day in L.A. I just > said: "there's no way out, it will never end, they will continually > demand more and more from me..." So I just up and hit the road. .... S: I think there can be just as much attachment, craving and suffering whether we have or don't have all these goodies. I think Evan made this point too. Colette, as I'm sure you know well, we think the problem is the other people's expectations, demands and so on, but of course this is just our own thinking. The Buddha's teachings help us to really face the truth courageously and see that the only demands and expectations and cravings that really hurt are our own. It's not an easy path to follow, but the bread crumbs are there for those with the honesty to see them and pick them up. .... >Damn > those baubles and trinkets. I have learned how to do this so very > very well since 1981 that it's part of me. If ya don't believe me > then look how much clothes I have that all came from the church and > the dumpster. It really isn't that important since IT IS NOT ME MY > SELF. ... S: No, it's not important unless we make it important. Again, as Evan stressed, understanding the teachings has nothing to do with being rich or poor, dressed one way or another or following any particular lifestyle. They are for anyone who can appreciate the benefit. Each time we judge others or feel embittered in anyway, we pile on the suffering, so to speak. I follow all your posts. I can only say that you have a lot of good friends here, Colette. Give the Theravada teachings a chance and let us give you support on the path. As I've been saying to others, apart from quick comments here and there, I may not be able to respond to any new messages for sometime as I'm going on a trip soon. Metta, Sarah ========= 47684 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Hi Htoo, There is sense base, there is sense object. When sense base and sense object come together, sense consciousness arises. This is contact. This is what I have understood from the suttas and books I have read on the subject. Do you mean to tell me that somewhere in-between this process ther is another thing called a pasada ruupa? I still don't understand how pasada ruupa fits in with the process of contact. With Metta, Evan -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Evan, Yes. There is sense base, there is sense object. That is there is sotaayatana and there is saddaayatana. This is true. But it is not true to say that 'whenever sense base and sense object come together sense consciousness arises'. But if there is contact yes it is true again. What you have understood and have read is true. May I ask you what is 'sotaayatana'? My answer is 'sotappasaada ruupa'. There are 28 ruupas. a) 4 mahaabhuuta ruupas b) 5 pasaada ruupas c) 4 gocara ruupas (ruupa, sadda, gandha, rasa/ pathavi,tejo,vayo 5th) d) 2 bhaava ruupas e) 1 hadaya ruupa f) 1 jivita ruupa g) 1 ahaara ruupa -- 18 nipphanna ruupas h) 1 aakaasa ruupa i) 2 vinatti ruupas j) 3 lahutaadi ruupas k) 4 lakkhana ruupas -- 10 anipphana ruupas There are only 28 ruupas. 5 pasaada ruupas are 1. cakkhu pasaada ruupa 2. sota pasaada ruupa 3. ghana pasaada ruupa 4. jivhaa pasaada ruupa 5. kaaya pasaada ruupa. Among these 28 ruupa and among these 5 pasaada ruupa which is sotaayatana, if I may ask you? When ear-consciousness (sotavi~n~naana citta) arises at the same time there are sound-sense-base or saddaayatana or simply sound [that is heard sound and not un-heard sound] and ear-sense-base or sotaayatana or ear-sensitivity. I do not understand why you are thinking about extra thing. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47685 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (442) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) There are 89 total cittas or 121 total cittas. But they all cannot arise in any given individual because there are many conditions that support the arising of cittas in individuals. 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala or arahat 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala or new-arahat have been explained. 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala or non-returner Not all 89 cittas are possible to arise in these non-returners. Because they have eradicated some defilements and fetters. The cittas that can arise in these individuals are a) 5 akusala cittas ( 4 ditthi vippayutta and 1 uddhacca) b) 7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas (7 resultant cons of rootless/aku) c) 8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas (8 resultant cons of rootless/ku) d) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas(pancadvara-avajjana and manodvara-avajjana) e) 8 mahavipaaka cittas f) 8 mahakiriya cittas g) 5 ruupakiriya cittas h) 4 aruupakiriya cittas i) 3 lokuttara cittas(anagami phala, arahatta magga & phala cittas) --- 50 cittas This is maximal cittas that can arise. But arahatta magga and phala cittas cannot arise in anagaami phalatthaana puggala and when they arise then puggala or individual will be called with other names and become other individual like arahatta maggathaana puggala or arahatta phalatthaana puggala. These 2 cittas of arahatta magga and arahatta phala are prospective cittas only. So there are in total 48 cittas that can arise in the individuals called anagaami phalatthaana puggala or individual who have become non-returners. Again there is no one, no anaagams but just 5 aggregates. These 48 cittas when arise is just one of 5 khandhas and they will be called vinnaanakkhandha. These 48 cittas do not arise singly and do not arise in isolation. Instead they arise together with their associated cetasikas. Among these cetasikas there are vedanakkhandha or vedana cetasika, sannakkhandha or sanna cetasika and other cetasikas. Other cetasikas that are not vedana or sanna are called sankharakkhandh. When in human realm these cittas arise at hadaya vatthu or heart base. This is ruupakkhandha. So ultimately there is no anagams at all but just combination of 5 aggregates namely rupakkhandha, vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha and vinnaanakkhandha. 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala(individuals who become non-returner) This individual is also just a citta called anaagami magga citta. This arises at hadaya vatthu and it is rupakkhandha. There are also vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, and sankhaarakkhandha. So there is no person who is called anagam but just these aggregate. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47686 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:31am Subject: 51 contemplations on consciousness (cittanupassana) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Freinds, There are 51 contemplations on consciousness. When doing contemplation on consciousness one has to be skilful in recognition of various states of mind. Without this skill it is hard to practise these contemplations. There are 16 different states of consciousness. 1. I am thinking sensuous matters. (saraga citta) 2. I am not thinking sensuous matters.(vitaraga citta) 3. I am thinking in ill-will.(sadosa citta) 4. I am not thinking in ill-will.(vitadosa citta) 5. I am thinking in ignorance.(samoha citta) 6. I am not thinking in ignorance.(vitamoha citta) 7. I am thinking in non-alert way.(sankhitta citta) 8. I am thinking in upset way. My thoughts are wandering.(vikkhitta) 9. I am developing jhana.(mahaggata citta) 10.I am not developing jhana.(amahaggata citta) 11.I am thinking lower.(sa-uttara citta) 12.I am not thinking lower.(anuttara citta) 13.I am concentrating.(samahita citta) 14.I am not concentrating.(asamahita citta) 15. I am liberating(temporarily).(vimutta citta) 16. I am not liberating.(avimutta citta) These 16 states of mind have to be first recognised before cittanupassana or contemplation on consciousness can be done properly. One perceives again and again that 'this citta arises in me'. At a time he thinks that other individuals will have been in one of these 16 cittas. At another time he perceives that there are cittas arise in him and others. 16 cittas or 16 contemplation is for internal or to see inside of own mind and another 16 is contemplations on 16 cittas that would have been arising and falling away in other individuals. A third set of 16 contemplations are perceived both internally and externally. So there are 16 + 16 + 16 = 48 contemplations. At a time the origination of these 16 cittas is perceived. At another time the dissolution of these 16 cittas is perceived. And sometimes both origination and dissolution of these cittas is perceived. 48 + 3 = 51 contemplations on various consciousness or states of mind. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47687 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kom's ordination news and message... sarahprocter... Dear Azita & Chris, --- gazita2002 wrote: > thanx for this Sarah. an auspicious day, it just happens to be my > birthday :-0 ... Happy belated Birthday, Azita!! Glad it was an auspicious day and you were reading dhamma messages. I think you once said Chris has a b'day around the same time, so best wishes to you too, Chris. (a shame about the broken-in-the-mail cd - *if* we get organised we'll bring a couple with us). We'll look forward to seeing you both in Cooran soon. Bangkok discussions (with us at the Foundation) are now 17th, 18th and 20th August...I think you're planning to join Chris. Maybe others can too? > I wish all the best for Kom - Tikkapanno - and have much > appreciated his understanding of the Dhamma and his patience and > kindness he shown the few times I have met him. May he gain much from > the Sangha life. > if you have contact with him, please pass on my good wishes to him. ... S: Yes, I did. metta, Sarah ====== 47688 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patient is Tolerance ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, I liked your posts on patience #47498, generosity #47292 and understanding #47408 very much. Lots of good quotes, thank you. I also liked the quotes on morality #47318, though I don't think 'intention' is a very appropriate translation for mano as in: "Intention always comes first' etc Dhp1 Usually I think 'mind' is used. With respect, Sarah ====== --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > Patient Tolerance is the Fifth Mental Perfection: > > The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to > endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! > The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. > The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. > Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! > Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! > Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. > External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. > <...> > Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and > dislike > do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & > impure, > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any > of those... > Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind > like water, > then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. > Rahula with > water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with > water are > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any > of that! > Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, > then contacts > of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! > Rahula, > fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, > pus, and > blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine > the mind > like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of > arisen delight > and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, > space does > not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished > like open > space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & > frustration will > neither dominate nor obsess your mind. > > Majjhima Nikaya 62 47689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. nilovg Hi Larry, op 15-07-2005 01:32 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and > there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful.", > L: First, let's agree that understanding (paññaa) is rare but > mindfulness (sati) is not so rare. -------- Sati arises with each kusala citta, whereas paññaa does not arise with each kusala citta. ------- L:To me, mindfulness remembers to be conscious of the object (or simply "presence") but doesn't particularly understand anything. ------ N: It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears. ---------- And then a body consciousness follows (in the case > of mindfulness of breathing). ------- N: First there is body-consciousness that experiences tangible object such as hardness, and after that there are javanacittas that may be kusala cittas or akusala cittas. ------- L: There is nothing particularly profound > about this consciousness except that it is consciousness of a reality > and one-pointedness is evident. And it seems to me that the arising of > this consciousness is conditioned by intentionality although a body > consciousness highlighted by one-pointedness could arise spontaneously. ------ N: Body-consciousness is vipakacitta produced by kamma. It is result. There is no sati. So the following sentences are not applicable. ------- L:. If understanding arises after the body consciousness, the > understanding is more like a commentary and that seems somewhat > unsatisfactory to me in terms of direct experience. Although it may make > sense to say the three general characteristics are recognized after the > subsiding of body consciousness. I'm going to look in Vism. to see if I > can find some more clues. ------- N: The Vis. may clarify. Maybe you can quote. Paññaa can arise with the javanacittas after the body-consciousness. It can understand the characteristic of the rupa that is tangible object. Nina. 47690 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, It is hard to find a term that covers all the different aspects of vitakka and vicara. I was not referring to the jhanafactor when using discursive thinking. Best to use the Pali and study the different meanings in different contexts. Otherwise one may confuse it with thinking in conventional sense. The jhana labhii has to achieve a difficult thing: he has to differentiate between vitakka and vicara. op 15-07-2005 02:07 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Tep: ... Thinking, he said, was the 11 annasamaana > cetasika (phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samaadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, > vicaara, adhimokkha, viriya, piti, chanda). And he added that although > the 50 cetasika were defined as 'sankhara-khandha', only these 11 > cetasika were "true" sankhara-khandha, and that they had to be known > by the meditator as dukkha. > > What is your thought on the monk's remarks? ------ N: I have no particular thoughts, I prefer to turn to the ancient texts. Nina. 47691 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 232 - Ignorance,Shamelessness,Recklessness and Rest egberdina Hi Jon, I can nitpick with the best of 'em :-) > > Egbert wrote: > > >I agree with the points you make. And there's nothing wrong with a > >natter about stuff. But even conventional speech has requirements > >which if unmet render a statement meaningless or confused. For > >example, the statement "A day has seven weeks" can be conventionally > >understood as being confused about some categories. > > > >The original statement to which I responded was along the lines of > >"there is only one citta at any time". I took citta to be a > >conventional reference to what is taken in Theravadin orthodoxy to be > >an irreducible, an absolute. That an irreducible is seen to occur in > >time and that it has quantity would suggest that it is not irreducible > >at all. That is why I suggested there was a confusion of levels. > > > > Ah, a fellow nit-picker, I see ;-)) > > Thanks for this explanation. I think you're saying that a person who has truly experienced an absolute would not be talking about that > absolute in terms of numbers and time, since that would be inconsistent with its absoluteness. > > This seems an odd point to make regarding what is clearly a summary of material found in the texts, rather than the writer's personal > experience. But perhaps more to the point, the Buddha himself gave > many discourses in which dhammas were described in terms of numbers (and > which together now form the Anguttara Nikaya), so there is good > precedent for this approach ;-)). > > >(I am working on the assumption that awareness of time and counting > >occur very much higher up the cognitive tree than basic sensing) > > > > Yes, time and counting are both conceptual matters, but the statement > 'there is only one citta at a time' does not purport to be a description > of a paramattha dhamma; it simply addresses the commonly held view that > experiences through the different sense-doors and the mind door can all > occur simultaneously. Perhaps your perceived 'confusion of levels' > results from a misunderstanding of the original statement. > == I personally do not believe in absolutes in the phenomenal world, but there are those that do, and I am critiqueing their position. It is not about the people, and I apologise if it was taken in that way by anyone. To me , the sentence "there is only one citta at a time" means as much or as little as "there is only one sky at a time". There is no unity in the sky, nor is there multiplicity in the sky, apart from perceiving it to be so. Time itself is a product of cittas, so time cannot be used as some standard outside of cittas. I do not have access to commentarial material on the theory of cittas, cetasikas and the like, so I do not know what the intent of the various authours who have repeated the statement in question was. You are telling me that in fact the statement "there is only one citta at a time" is polemical, it seeks to counter another view. I'm happy enough to take your word for it :-) Perhaps I am confused about the intent behind the making of the statement, but would you say that I am confused in saying the following? Taking a stand on whether citta is one or many is totally unnecessary in a 4 Noble Truth context, and leaning either way can only lead to perceptual edifices that are as meaningless as their foundation. Kind Regards Herman 47692 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:28am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] egberdina Hi Jon, > > Egbert wrote: > > >Herman> James already has made the point more than adequately that > >rupas in the suttas are not treated independently from namas, you do > >not have one without the other. Consequently, there are no > >characteristics of "rupas only" to be known, in the suttas, that is. > > > > Yes, namas depend on rupas for their arising, and rupas cannot be > experienced without namas. But it does not follow from that that 'there > are no characteristics of "rupas only" to be known'. When it comes to > insight development, each dhamma has its own characteristic to be > known. At the moment of insight with one as object, there is no knowing > of the other. I think this is clear from the suttas. > Perhaps I am myopic in my reading of the suttas, but I always understood the point of the teachings to be that that the only characteristics of dhammas worth knowing are anicca, anatta and dukkha. Thanks for all your other comments, and I do appreciate your sense of humour :-) Kind Regards Herman > >I do not know for sure, but it seems that Jon reads the satipatthana > >sutta with abhidhamma glasses, and again I do not know for sure, but I > >think James reads the same sutta with sutta glasses. > > > > I would say that both James and I read the Satipatthana Sutta in the > light of our knowledge of the Tipitaka as a whole, its commentaries and > other texts. Right James? > > >I have no doubt that all of us at dsg wish to be of assistance to one > >another, and I also think that a prerequisite for any discussion to be > >therapeutic is that sender and recipient need to be in the same "space". > > > > > > Hmm, a prerequisite, you say. Who would decide, and how, whether 2 > people were in the same space? Besides, it would take all the fun out > of talking at cross-purposes ;-)). > > >It would be rather funny if a well-meaning physician handed a copy of > >Gray's Anatomy to each of his patients with the advice to study up on > >it and return at a later date so that the doctor could discuss the > >problem at hand in his own terms. Wisdom would dictate (it did at > >least in the case of the Buddha) that the therapist meets the patient > >where the patient is at. A sutta view of the suttas and an abhidhamma > >view of the suttas are obviously a mismatch. If one is convinced that > >an abhidhamma view of the suttas is more conducive to a desired > >outcome, it would nonetheless be wise to discuss with people where > >they are at. > > > > I think some of us are quite happy with occasional (or frequent) > mismatches ;-)). Seriously though, thanks for the suggestion. I know > what you mean. I will try in my own posts to establish appropriate > common ground. > > Jon 47693 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:58am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? egberdina Hi Htoo, I think we agreed that without ear, or cochlear implant for a deaf person, there is no hearing. You close of this post by saying that ear and cochlear implant are concept. The conclusion beckons that concepts give rise to paramattha dhammas. I know you don't believe that. I do not mean to tie you up in knots. Is it possible that there are problems with the theory ? The purpose of a theory is to explain the workings of the observed, causality if you like. Theory has its place, because causality is not observable. The existence of cochlear implants is testimony to the fact that the causality that underlies the transducing of waves in a medium like or water into electrical pulses has been understood sufficiently well to be able to give at least a poor reproduction of hearing to those who lack it. It is not improbable that someone, somewhere is going to see the light on hearing the dhamma with the help of a cochlear implant, is it? I do not need to say anymore on this, but if you want to continue, I will be more than happy to do so. Thanks for all your time and effort Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Thank you again. > > > == > Herman: > > So to sum up, I am focusing on the paramattha dhamma of sense base, > not pasada rupa. Whether there is sense base when there is no hearing > is not the question. The question is, when there is hearing via > cochlear implant, is that the sense-base? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > You seem to be binding me with tie. I would say if there is > sotavinnaana citta then there is the sense-base called sotaayatana. > > Hearing is not 'a pin-point word' for sotavinnaana citta. Because as > you as you hear 'there have already been many constructions on ideas, > beliefs, memories, and many other things'. > > So to be exact > > a) If there is sotavinnaana citta, at the same time there are also > saddaayatana and sotaayatana. Saddaayatana is sound-sense-base and > sotaayatana is ear-sense-base. > > b) If there is no sotavinnaana citta there may or may not be > saddaayatana and sotaayatana. > > Hearing is a general concept. Even it is possible to perceive hearing > related matters into your brain through microchips and electrical > devices. > > The ears what you can see and the cochlea implant what you can see is > not sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. Both are just names and they are > pannatti. What you see are all visual objects. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47694 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:03am Subject: Even is Equanimity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Balanced Equanimity is the Tenth Mental Perfection: Equanimity characteristically induces & promotes impartial neutrality... It's function is to look upon things with an even unreactive indifference! It's manifestation is the gradual stilling of both attraction & repulsion.. It's proximate cause is seeing, that all inherit the results of their actions. It's effect is utter purification & perfection of all other mental qualities, by ending both discontent & delight, thereby providing the necessary equal calm required for their complete assessment & accomplishment. Equanimity means Unaffectable.. Equanimity means Unprovokable.. Equanimity means Undisturbable.. Equanimity means Unexcitable.. Equanimity means Imperturbable.. Equanimity means Disengaged.. Equanimity means Disentangled.. Equanimity means Detached.. Equanimity means Immovable.. Equanimity means Unbeatable.. Equanimity means Untemptable.. Equanimity means Wholly Immune.. Equanimity means Indifferent.. Equanimity means Impartial.. Equanimity means Unbiased.. Equanimity means Disinterested.. Equanimity means Balanced.. Even like a smiling mountain! Cool Calm is the ultimate Balm! The Threefold Equanimity (Upekkha): If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquillity; So is the Equanimity; of one freed by the Insight of right Knowledge. Dhammapada 96 Although a man is richly dressed and adorned, if he is in peace, at ease, in equanimity, calmed, composed, controlled, celibate and harmless towards all beings, then verily he is a Holy One, a recluse, a sage ... Dhammapada 142 Equanimity towards one's own internal states - that is indeed a link to Enlightenment. Equanimity regarding external phenomena & conditions - that is indeed also a link to Enlightenment. Samyutta Nikaya V Bojjhanga-samyutta. Such noble friend finally develops the link to awakening that is Equanimity during awareness of in-&-out breathing, which protect against damaging mental states, tends to detachment, to ceasing, tends to release & culminates in complete self-surrender... If, friends, awareness of in-&-out breathing, is so cultivated and so made much of, it is indeed of great fruit, of great advantage! One whose awareness of breathing in-&-out is perfected, well developed, and gradually brought to refined growth thus, according to the teaching of the Buddha, such one illuminates the entire world, just like the full moon freed from clouds. Samyutta Nikaya V Anapana-samyutta. The Blessed One said: Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a Noble One is there the unsurpassable development of the senses? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, or what is disagreeable, or what is both agreeable & disagreeable. He recognizes that: This agreeable thing has arisen in me, or this disagreeable thing... or this both agreeable & disagreeable thing, has arisen in me: And that is constructed, conditioned, coarse & dependently co-arisen! But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, namely even & equal equanimity! Instantly, that arisen agreeable or disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes it's calm stance! Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or when open, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, equanimity make whatever arisen agreeable thing... or disagreeable thing... or both agreeable & disagreeable thing cease right there, and equanimity takes it's even stance! In the discipline of The Noble One, this is called the unsurpassable development of the senses with regard to visible forms cognizable by the eye. Similar is the supreme development of the other senses. MN 152 With the fading of rapturous joy, he remains in equanimity, aware & alert, still physically sensitive to bodily pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare: 'In aware Equanimity, one abides in pleasure...' With the stilling of pleasure & pain as with the earlier disappearance of elation & frustration, he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: sole awareness purified by equanimity, - neither pleasure nor pain - This is called right concentration... The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of all regrets, just this pure equanimity being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release the breakthrough from ignorance. Sutta Nipata V 13: Udaya's Questions Equanimity is 'Tatra-majjhattata', which designates the evenly balanced keeping to the moderate middle of all things. It has as characteristic, that it effects the balance of consciousness and mental properties as a single function of single taste, which prevents both overt excessiveness and any lack or insufficiency. Equanimity thereby puts an end to biased partiality by manifesting moderation well within range of the properly reasoned midway. Visuddhimagga XIV The Buddha once explained: I would make my bed in a charnel ground, with a skeleton for my pillow.. And cowherd boys came up and spat on me, urinated on me, threw dirt at me, and poked sticks into my ears! While others, exultant & thrilled brought me offerings of food, caskets of perfume & incense and garlands of flowers! Yet I do not recall, that I ever showed any partiality towards any of them... I was the same to them all! Neither arousing any fondness nor any aversion! This was my ultimate perfection of equanimity... MN 12 Lomahamsanapariyaya The Hair-raising Presentation Cariyapitaka III 15 __________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 47695 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:16am Subject: Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47696 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:20am Subject: Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina (and all ) - It is true that vitakka & vicara can be confused with "thinking in conventional sense", but that is not my concern. My concern is about the thinking in non-conventional sense. > N: I have no particular thoughts, I prefer to turn to the ancient texts. Tep: I hope you don't mean that you no longer believe in anybody else. I believe there have been several ariya-savaka (noble disciples) since the time the ancient texts were written. The explanation by my highly respected Thai Forest monk is clear to me. Thinking involves more than vitakka & vicara: chanda, cetana (volition), manasikara(attention), vitakka & vicara, adhimokkha (determination), viriya(effort), piti (joy), phassa(consciousness- impression), and jivita(vitality). The following implications are very interesting : 1) How do these 11 cetasika in worldlings lead to dukkha? 2) In order that dukkha ceases "thinking" must stop. Does that include cessation of citta-sankhara? Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > It is hard to find a term that covers all the different aspects of vitakka > and vicara. I was not referring to the jhanafactor when using discursive > thinking. Best to use the Pali and study the different meanings in different contexts. Otherwise one may confuse it with thinking in conventional sense. The jhana labhii has to achieve a difficult thing: he has to differentiate between vitakka and vicara. > op 15-07-2005 02:07 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > > Tep: ... Thinking, he said, was the 11 annasamaana cetasika (phassa, cetanaa, jivita, samaadhi, manasikaara, vitakka, > > vicaara, adhimokkha, viriya, piti, chanda). And he added that although the 50 cetasika were defined as 'sankhara-khandha', only these 11 cetasika were "true" sankhara-khandha, and that they had to be known by the meditator as dukkha. > > > > What is your thought on the monk's remarks? > ------ 47697 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta name upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 7/15/05 4:55:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello Herman, Thanks for posting Michael Olds' translation, it was nice to read it again. ----------------------------------- Howard: Indeed it was! Some folks consider Michael's translations to be "quirky" - I even remember one who was angered by his translation of 'bhikkhu' ;-)), but I find his translations to be fresh and attention getting - even riveting! ---------------------------------- He created the Buddhadust site which he has chosen to permanently take down. Disappointing - as it was a valuable and refreshing resource, and visited regularly by many of us. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, 'refreshing' is the right word to us. :-) ----------------------------------- metta, Chris ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47698 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, op 14-07-2005 17:14 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: . Since saññaa marks the > object >> from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? >> The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of > ignorance.> > > What are these pictures-memories-recollections of sanna marks > which go through this mind one after another? > I observe kind of "picture-flashes" triggering various reactions, > and I am curious in mechanism of this thing. ------ N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the object so that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible object, and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. If insight is not developed of one dhamma at a time we hold on to an object that was experienced, we cling to it. If there were no seeing, we would not think so much of what was seen and form up concepts about it. That is why Kh. Sujin said: we are on the ocean of ignorance and attachment. But a moment of understanding, even if it is very little, is a condition for its growth. Nina. 47699 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,171 philofillet Hi Sarah > The 'mystery man' you asked about in another post is Ivan Matt, I presume, > whom we've known for a very long time. He was posting on DSG last year as > Matt. You'll do us all a favour if you can encourage him to post again. If > you have any message for him, Sukin can make sure he sees it! Ell is his > wife who you hear on the Sri lanka tapes. What a coincidence. I collected posts from last year, and often come back to Matt's, the ones one seeing and the classic that I always refer to when i get caught up in thinking about ethical/social issues. You know the one. They are so sharp. On a few occasions I almost asked "who is this matt and where is he?" so I guess I must have accumulations that respond to what he has to say. I'm sure he has his own good reason for not hanging out here, but if Sujin could tell him that there is a neophyte who would appreciate hearing a lot more from him I'd be grateful. Of course, as we always say, it's not the person, it's the understanding.. > .... > > > She said - and I'm sure we'd all agree - that there can > > be moments of right understanding that arise in amougst the wrong > > view. > .... > S: yes, we'd all agree. > .... > > >like the lotus, conditions permitting. And as I said > > in the last post, even people who do not have the necessary > > conditions for panna to develop and therefore stay submerged in > > wrong view practices...they can benefit from the general atmosphere > > of harmlessness that pervades even the most adulterated form of > > Dhamma, I think. > .... > S: If the 'most adulterated form of Dhamma' is wrong view, I don't think > it's harmless at all. However sweet-sounding it may seem and however > metta-filled those who espouse it may seem, if it's encouraging wrong > view, it's not harmless imho. I don't know. This might sound pessimistic, but I think not everyone can or will respond to the true Dhamma, and we know that the true Dhamma is disappearing from the world. I would rather know that people were being warm and fuzzy thanks to pop Buddhism books and feelgood teachers like Thich Nhat Hahn than getting hooked up on JeeZus. No one ever invaded a country In the Name of Nirvana Now! I think warm and fuzzy Dhamma is still helpful to people in a superficial way even if tthough it doesn't bring them closer to liberation. I write stories with warm and fuzzy messages so I am in favour of people feeling warm and fuzzy if that is where they are at in their journey through the aeons. Better to develop panna but that requires patience that simply is not for everyone and never will be. So be it. > Pls tell Naomi that I hope she gets past the introductions. I hope she will too. She does like the quality of the voices, the obvious gentleness and unity of purpose you hear in the talks. The thing is she gets annoyed when I spend too much time on Dhamma, so there is resistance. When I am more productive in other areas there will be more interest from her, I think. I can't push it on her now. She has strong conditions that make her adverse to feeling controlled by others, probably because of her childhood. Also, pls tell > her now that we're all in trouble because I laughed a little at your Nasa > comments and now he suggests I'd better do the introductions...:/) Oh my God! That would be even worse! haha I love the tone of the introductions. That was Naomi's cynicism, not mine. > > There's a great little Abhidhamma intro that K.Sujin gives at the > beginning of the Colombo tape if anyone is interested (then it goes into a > really advanced, technical question, before eventually ending up with the > transplant and worm for Herman). Ranil and Sumane were from DSG, but they > haven't posted for a long time. Wow, another coincidence. That's the very talk I listened to as I walked to the station. A man from Sri Lanka (I assume) probably Ranil or Sumane asked some questions about kusala citta, referring to a favourite Dhammapada passage, and A. Sujin launched into a really lucid talk. Great stuff. Perhaps I will type out a transcript here. See, the problem is, Naomi has been bitching at me for spending too much time here. For breaking my promise to post only once or twice a week. I think Charles can relate to that! And perhaps not only Charles.... Metta, Phil 47700 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:01am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Herman and Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi Jon, At the moment of insight with one as object, there is no > knowing > > of the other. I think this is clear from the suttas. > > > > Perhaps I am myopic in my reading of the suttas, but I always > understood the point of the teachings to be that that the only > characteristics of dhammas worth knowing are anicca, anatta and dukkha. > > Thanks for all your other comments, and I do appreciate your sense of > humour :-) > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman I agree with Herman here. It is often said that one of the stages of vipassana insight is "knowing the difference between nama and rupa" but I believe that this comes from the commentaries and not from the suttas. The suttas, if memory serves, describe how one is supposed to see consciousness (nama) immersed in the body (rupa) like one would see a thread strung through a clear gem. This metaphor would involve seeing the relationship between nama and rupa and seeing their differences. Not quite the same idea that Jon suggests, in my opinion. If there are suttas which state that one should know nama as separate from rupa and vice versa, I would be interested to hear of them. Metta, James ps. BTW, my following of posts has been quite sporadic due to my travels. If I have missed any posts directed to me or that mention me indirectly, could someone direct my attention to those posts? It isn't my wish to ignore anyone. 47701 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: Hi Htoo, I think we agreed that without ear, or cochlear implant for a deaf person, there is no hearing. You close of this post by saying that ear and cochlear implant are concept. The conclusion beckons that concepts give rise to paramattha dhammas. I know you don't believe that. I do not mean to tie you up in knots. Is it possible that there are problems with the theory ? The purpose of a theory is to explain the workings of the observed, causality if you like. Theory has its place, because causality is not observable. The existence of cochlear implants is testimony to the fact that the causality that underlies the transducing of waves in a medium like or water into electrical pulses has been understood sufficiently well to be able to give at least a poor reproduction of hearing to those who lack it. It is not improbable that someone, somewhere is going to see the light on hearing the dhamma with the help of a cochlear implant, is it? I do not need to say anymore on this, but if you want to continue, I will be more than happy to do so. Thanks for all your time and effort Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Herman, Now I see that you did not tie me up. I want to continue the current discussion. But I do not have much time nowadays. Pannatti finally points out what paramattha dhamma are. I would not say 'cochlea implant, ear' etc are not real. But I would say they are not paramattha dhamma. There are my posts on dream and arahats. I wrote about the current in the nerves and perception in relation to dream. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47702 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:53am Subject: Re: Public Apology to Jon htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Jon - I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, May I show my great respect to you on your 'Public Apology to Jon'? You are one of my respected Dhamma friends. Among Dhamma friends you are a rare friend, who has the qualities of flexibility, courtesy, diplomacy and many others. I say this because you are in different groups, where there are people with various personalities, attitude, knowledge, skills and behaviour. With much respect, Htoo Naing 47703 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:56am Subject: 30 vedananupassanas or 30 contemplations on feeling htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, According to 'the definition of consciousness in Oxford English Dictionar' consciousness comprises feeling. Abhidhamma says in each and every citta or consciousness there is a feeling. This means if there is a citta then there is a feeling associated with that citta. So if there is no citta then there is no feeling at all. Feeling or vedana is one of 5 aggregates or one of panca khandhas. There are 5 khandhas or 5 aggregates. They are 1. ruupa-kkhandha or material aggregates 2. vedana-kkhandha or feeling aggregates 3. sanna-kkhandha or perception aggregates 4. sankhara-kkhandha or formation aggregates 5. vinnaana-kkhandha or consciousness aggregates. In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or vinnaana- kkhandha. Here in this post there will describe 30 contemplations on feeling and this is contemplation on vedana-kkhandha. Ruupa-kkhandha is contemplated in both of kaayanupassana and dhammaanupassana. But kaayaanupassana or contemplations on the body is mainly on ruupa-kkhandha. There are 9 contemplations on feeling that arise within or that arise internally. These feeling can be sensed by individual with their mind. No outside individual will be able to sense those feelings but for themselves. These 9 contemplations are 1. this is pleasant feeling. 2. this is unpleasant feeling. 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) 6. this is sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling.(neither) 7. this is non-sensuous pleasant feeling.(jhana/magga-pleasure) 8. this is non-sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure not attaining) 9. this is non-sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling. At a time the individual thinks that these feelings would have been arising and passing away in other individuals and they are just feelings that are not self. So there is another set of 9 contemplations on other individuals. At some time the individual thinks on feelings in both his individual and other individuals that there will be arising of feelings and passing away of feeling. So there is a third set of 9 contemplations on feeling. So there are altogether 27 contemplations on feeling. There are originations of these feeling. This is another contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution. These 3 contemplations along with former 27 contemplations make 30 contemplations on feeling. This is for simplicity and further clarification may be required. So far there have explained on 4. 108 dhammanupassana or 108 contemplations on dhamma 3. 51 cittaanupassana or 51 contemplations on citta or consciousness 2. 30 vedanaanupasana or 30 contemplations on feeling. 1. 216 kaayaanupassana or 216 contemplations on the body will be explained in the coming post on kaayaanupassana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 443 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) The first four individuals have been explained in the previous posts. 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) This individual is once-returner. This means that before they leave the samsara they will come back to human realm for once only after the current life. This may be next life or may equally be the last life. The cittas that can arise in these individuals are a)7 akusala cittas(4 ditthi-vippayutta lobha cittas,2 dosa,1 uddhacca) b)7 ahetuka akusalavipaaka cittas c)8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas d)2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (panca-dvara-avajjana & mano-dvara-avajjana) e)8 mahakusala cittas f)8 mahavipaaka cittas g)5 ruupakusala cittas (5 rupa jhaana) h)4 aruupakusala cittas(4 aruupa jhaana) i)1 sakadaagaami phala citta --- 50 cittas These 50 cittas can arise in these sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala. There are 8 lokuttara cittas or 8 supramundane consciousness. Arahatta phala citta arises only in asikkha or arahats. So there is posibility that other 7 lokuttara cittas may arise in sikkha or trainees. If all these are added then further 6 cittas have to be added to above list 50 cittas. There will then be 56 total cittas that can arise in sikkha or trainees who are saints or ariyas. But as puggalas have already been defined other lokuttara cittas only arise in other ariya puggala and not in this sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala. So there are only 50 cittas that can arise in sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala or once- returners. 6.sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) There is only one citta that can arise in this individual. Because magga cittas always arise once and each just last one cittakkhana or one mind moment. So sakadaagaami magga citta only arises in a moment and it never arises again. Instead there arise sakadaagaami phala cittas and if these cittas arise then the individual becomes sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala and no more sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. There is in ultimate sense no person at all in both sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala and sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. There are just naama and ruupa. It is illusionally called individual or puggala but in ultimate sense there are 5 aggregates. 1. ruupakkhandha ( hadaya vatthu where sakadaagaami magga depends) 2. vedanakkhandha( feeling in sakadaagaami magga citta ) 3. sannakkhandha ( perception in sakadaagaami magga citta) 4. sankharakkhandha( other cetasikas apart from vedana and sanna) 5. vinnaanakkhandha( sakadaagaami magga citta itself) These 5 khandhas are collectively viewed as individual who is called sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala. Let assume someone in this world on this earth is a sakadaagaam. When we look at him we cannot find any sakadaagam, or any person or man or being. What we see is that form, shape, colours, light, brightness of various degrees. When we see him as bahiddhika dhamma all aggregates are there in that individual and actually they all are agreegates of naama or ruupa and that combination. When that individual sees himself as ajjhattika dhamma there is no person or man or being at all but just agreegates of naama and ruupa as described above as 5 khandhas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47705 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:27am Subject: Pali word '' Vi~n~naana '' htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Here is a Pali word called 'vi~n~naana'. This word is simply written as 'vinnana'. It is usually written in the form of 'vinnana'. To fully understand what vinnana means we need to go back to basic Pali lesson. Here is a table of Pali alphabets. 1) k , kh , g , gh , `n 2) c , ch , j , jh , ~n 3) .t, .th, .d, .dh, .n 4) t , th , d , dh , n 5) p , ph , b , bh , m 6) y , r , l , v , s 7) h ,.l , .m There are 33 Pali alphabets. Similar characters in English font of Pali are .t, .th , .d , .dh , . n and t, th , d , dh , n These 10 alphabet 5 in each roll are similar. Their vocal sound or voice are also similar. t is like 't' of 'toward'. th is like 'th' in 'bethorse' or 'bet-horse'. d is like 'd' in 'door'. dh is like 'dh' in 'secondhand'. h is aspirated sound. Without h is unaspirated sound. When aspirated we can detect a gush of air in fron of our mouth when we say aspirated word. Just put the palm of hand in front of the mouth and say the alphabet. So there is distinction between 't' and 'th'. There is distinction between 'd' and 'dh'. The distinction between 't' and 'd' is that 't' is not voiced while 'd' is voiced. Put your palm on the throat and say 't' and 'd' alternatively. There is distinction. The site of the tongue where to place is all the same. n is nasalised 't'. So there is distinction between all t, th, d, dh, and n. Again how to differentiate between '.t' and 't'. 't' is like 't' in English and the tongue is placed at the base of teeth. But '.t' is not like that. For pronunciation of '.t' the tongue has to be placed a little bit back from the teeth. So there is distinction between and among all 10 alphabets of t, th, d, dh, n, .t, .th, .d, .dh, .n If this is understood all first 5 rolls of Pali alphabets can now be pronounced. c is like 'c' in 'centre'. j is like the second sound of 'measure' Among these 5 rolls the last alphabet are `n, ~n, .n, n, m These 5 alphabets do have distinct sound. `n is like 'ng' in 'English' ~n is a bit similar to 'neer' in 'engineer' if engineer has 3 sound. That is 'en' 'gin' 'neer'. Here 'neer' has to be a single sound in Pali '~n' and not a dipthong or combination of 2 vowels. n is the same as 'n' in 'no'. .n is like n but the tongue has to be put a bit back from the teeth. m is like 'm' in 'mother'. So all 25 alphabets are distinct. y, r, l, v, s All these 5 are distinct. Y is like 'y' of yello, r is like 'r' of 'red', l is like 'l' of 'letter', v is like 'v' of 'visitor' and s is like 's' of 'sister'. But when 's' is pronounced the tongue has to be pushed against the base of teeth. So all 30 alphabets have distinct sound. 3 more. .l is like 'l' but '.l' has to be pronounced with the tonuge put a little bit back from the teeth like those 5 alphabets of '.t, .th, .d, .dh, .n h is like 'h' in 'hat. .m is also distinct. There is no initial '.m' in Pali. .m is like 'ng' in 'English' but without 'g'. So there are 33 distinct sounds for 33 Pali alphabet. Now it is the turn of 'vi~n~naana'. But before this 8 vowels should be studied. In Pali there are 8 vowels. They are a, aa i, ii u, uu e o a is a short vowel. It is like 'a' in 'ago'. aa is a long vowel. It is like 'a' is 'car'. aa is written with a single 'a' with a bar over the letter 'a'. When this character is not available 'aa' is sometimes used and sometimes just 'a' is used as if the readers have already known it. Like a, i is a short vowel. i is like 'i' in 'sit'. ii is a long vowel. It is like 'ee' in 'employee'. Like a and i, u is a short vowel. u is like 'ove' in 'move'. uu is like 'oo' in 'boot' or the sound in 'through'. e is a long vowel. Long vowels have double the length of short vowels. e is like 'ay' in 'day'. But not exactly like English 'day' which is a diphthong or combination of different vowels. o is like 'aw' in 'straw'. Now we come back to 'vi~n~naana'. So when all these 33 Pali alphabets and 8 Pali vowels have been explained it will not be difficult to follow what 'vinnana' is like. It is like 'wein' 'nyar' 'nart' and all in equal length even though na of the last syllable is a short vowel. And all 'wein' 'nyar' 'nart' have to be a single vowl in each and there is no ending sound in 'wein'. That is no sound of 'n'. Likewise there is no sound of 'r' in 'nyar' and no sound of 'rt' in 'nart'. So 'vinnana' is pronounced like 'wein-nyar-nart'. The written font for 'vinnana' is 'vi~n~naana'. Now it is time to see its meaning. Here is someone's explanation, which is not that right to serve the full meaning of vinnana. 'The Pali term "vinnana" is very commonly translated as "consciousness" in English translations of Pali texts. This again seems very misleading because the term "consciousness" is a synonym for awareness in the English language, and since "vinnana" is an aggregate of clinging that must be relinquished prior to enlightenment, then it seems rather unskillful to imply that enlightenment is thus a state of unconsciousness. However, if we consider that the Pali term "vinnana" is closest to our use of the term "cognition" then we can thus see the contemplative is not seeking an unconscious state, but a state that is free of the cognitive processes.' Actually 'vinnana' is made up of 'vi' and '~n~naana'. Vi means 'special' 'separate' 'apart''free from''clear' 'different'. Nana means 'knowledge' or 'knowing'. So Vinnana vi_nnana, 'special knowledge' or 'special knowing'(at eye,---, mind.) vi_nnana, 'separate knowledge' or separate knowing(at eye,---,mind.) Consciousness is almost close to the meaning of vinnana. Oxford dictionary says consciousness also includes feeling. So this is not misleading to anyone. But 'awareness' is misleading one. Why? It is a mixture of many other things that are beyond consciousness. When 'awareness' is used then there is limitation in meaning and it does not represent 'vinnana'. Examples are bhavanga cittas. These are life-continuum. It is consciousness. It is conscious to its object. But 'sleeping mind' can never be called 'awareness'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47706 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Public Apology to Jon buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you > this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these > posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of > sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing > whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of > clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and > courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very > sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. > > With metta, > Howard I'm just glad that I'm not the only one who has difficulty being civil with Jon! ;-)) This post is very nice- hopefully it will inspire some self-reflection on Jon's part as well. Metta, James 47707 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 7/15/05 10:54:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear Howard, May I show my great respect to you on your 'Public Apology to Jon'? You are one of my respected Dhamma friends. Among Dhamma friends you are a rare friend, who has the qualities of flexibility, courtesy, diplomacy and many others. I say this because you are in different groups, where there are people with various personalities, attitude, knowledge, skills and behaviour. With much respect, Htoo Naing ====================== Thank you for the kind words. Well, an apology is better than no apology, but better yet is to not create the need to apologize to begin with. And to do that requires more consistent effort at guarding the senses. So, my lesson to learn: Be more careful in practicing what I preach! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47708 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 7/15/05 12:25:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: I'm just glad that I'm not the only one who has difficulty being civil with Jon! ;-)) This post is very nice- hopefully it will inspire some self-reflection on Jon's part as well. ======================= Thank you for the commiseration (i.e., providing the company that misery loves! ;-) However, Jon, himself, is very civil all the time [I've never witnessed him otherwise], and being exasperating to (some) others isn't a "crime". ;-) More of a defect, I think, is to allow oneself to *be* exasperated and to express that exaspiration unkindly. After all, khanti and metta are paramitas, whereas "being right" isn't! ;-) Please excuse me if I'm coming off sounding preachy here, James. I don't mean to at all. It's just that I was really displeased with my own posting, and I'm not looking to share any of the blame. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. nilovg Hi James, op 15-07-2005 16:01 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: It is often said that one of the stages of > vipassana insight is "knowing the difference between nama and rupa" > but I believe that this comes from the commentaries and not from the > suttas. .... If there are suttas which state that one should know nama as > separate from rupa and vice versa, I would be interested to hear of them. >--------- N: Indeed, in the Commentaries this is explained in detail and in a direct way. Still, I see many pointers in the suttas. I find your question worth while to reflect on. In countless suttas the Buddha explained about the objects that are experienced one at a time through the six doorways. For example: ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, he said to the monks: ³Whatever fears arise, monks, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever troubles arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man. Whatever misfortunes arise, all arise for the fool, not the wise man.² Further on we read: ³Wherefore, monks, thinking, ŒInvestigating, we will become wise,¹ this is how you must train yourselves, monks.² When this had been said, the venerable Ånanda spoke thus to the Lord: ³What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: ŒInvestigating, the monk is wise?¹ ² The Buddha then explained about the elements classified in different ways, about the sense-fields (åyatanas), the Dependent origination, the (causally) possible and impossible. When Ånanda asked him how the monk was skilled in the elements the Buddha first spoke about the elements as eighteenfold. We read: <³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is skilled in the elements.¹ ² > All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the relevant sense-cognitions. When the listeners in the Buddha's time heard: they were not passive listeners, they could be aware then and there of visible object or seeing, without confusing them and thus they could realize their falling away, one at a time. They would not confuse eye-door and mind-door, seeing and thinking, they would not take dhammas together as a whole, a concept, and so many of them could attain enlightenment while they listened. This is a good exhortation for us not to be passive listeners or passive readers when reading about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. They arise at this moment. We can learn about them. We can consider the suttas of Kindred Sayings IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense. B.B. edition, p. 1133, see how the sense bases are taken separately, as being impermanent, dukkha, non-self. Then the sense objects: forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tactile objects mental phenomena. And then p. 1140, §24 Abandonment; the eye is to be abandoned, forms, eye-consciousness, and the same for the ear, etc. We can just read it and it may not mean anything. Or, we can be openminded to the Dhamma and try to understand more of all these dhammas one by one. When you are back I would like to read more suttas with you. Starting another thread? Nina. 47710 From: "agriosinski" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Agrios, > > op 14-07-2005 17:14 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > . Since saññaa marks the > > object > >> from moment to moment, how can one escape attachment to it? > >> The teachings help us to realize that one is always in danger of > > ignorance.> > > > > What are these pictures-memories-recollections of sanna marks > > which go through this mind one after another? > > I observe kind of "picture-flashes" triggering various reactions, > > and I am curious in mechanism of this thing. > ------ > N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the object so > that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible object, > and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. [...] Hi Nina and all, you are actually explaining papanca sanna sankhara. I am not curious about thinking which arises from various sources, but rather about mental pictures popping up by themself, without any thinker being involved. They may originate in portfolio of sanna created tags. I can't say. Let me give few examples: A person is listening to the music with his/her eyes closed. Visual images will start to pop-up in the mind. There are sota related processes going on, but mano vinnana is pictorial. Visual specifics of them are not actually reminiscent of anything known. Or: A person is practicing and sudden whip of visually intensive nature, let say brightness or movement of some red shapes pops up in mind, triggering various reactions. Or: A person is about to sleep but sudden shake of unknown to me origin is giving his/her feeling of deep chill. There is body reaction of skin and hair standing up. I am interested in origination of it back to the source. What is the source of it. With much respect, Agrios. 47711 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Public Apology to Jon jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for this, but really there's no need to apologise. The areas we discuss here are sensitive ones for everyone, and there is bound to be reaction from time to time. I realise it is just frustration, and nothing personal. But I appreciate your writing and saying what you have. I hope you will keep up our exchanges as before. Jon upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > I've reread with displeasure the short sequence of posts I've sent to you >this month. While I don't retract the underlying impersonal content of these >posts, well hidden though it is, I very much retract the obvious tone of >sarcasm and sharpness there. Out of frustration, which excuses nothing >whatsoever(!), and in pseudo-defense of my perspective on the Dhamma, an ironic form of >clinging, I allowed myself to violate the most basic requirement of kindness and >courtesy, especially as directed to a good person and good friend. I'm very >sorry for this, Jon, and I hope you will accept my apology. > >With metta, >Howard > > 47712 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah {Attn. Kel, Howard, Nina, Larry, Htoo, Ven. Samahita and others} - Sarah : > > Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana and >the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his >conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested > in your comments too. > ========= Tep: Thanks to Kelvin for his introduction of the article, 'The Jhanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas', By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi : http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm Thank you Sarah for asking me to comment. Bhikkhu Bodhi framed his study in order to answer the following 3 questions: (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhana before entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyama), the irreversible path to stream-entry? (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhanas to lay disciples who have attained stream-entry? (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhanas to the stream-enterer, is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their attainment becomes essential? I extracted only his definitive findings and assembled the pieces into the following answers: (1.) "Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters 'the fixed course of rightness' in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. (2.) "None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhanas. (3.) "All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhanas. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhanic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment." BB also commented on non-returnership and jhanas. The relationship was "clear", he said. But the connection might not be "absolutely binding". BB: "Several non-returners in the Nikayas claim to possess all four jhanas, and according to the Mahamalukaya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhana is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. Although in the Nikayas the tie between the two attainments -- the jhanas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding." I feel that BB's findings and conclusions are in good agreement with my several years of suttas study. Well, Sarah. I thanked you because from now on we can save our time by avoiding a debate over the 3 questions above. Sincerely, Tep ============ --------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard (& Herman, Kel, RobK, Tep), > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Herman: But I think that some effort is required to "disown" how the sense-bases are treated in the Vibhanga (I think that's where it is :-)) , where the descriptions are remarkably anatomical. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Aha! Suddenly an Abhidhammika, eh? ;-)) > > --------------------------------------- > .... > S: I think he's preparing for a good discussion in the Botanical gardens in Sydney :-)). > > We hope to also meet Antony Woods in Sydney too and just possibly Evan if he can get to Sydney (no special Pali terms required, Evan!). > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Thanks Kel, RobK & others for assuring Herman he can drive safely and develop sati. 47713 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:08pm Subject: Re: 30 vedananupassanas or 30 contemplations on feeling buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo - In the message # 47703 you wrote : Htoo: > In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 > contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or vinnaana- kkhandha. Tep: Could you please describe how you may "contemplate on consciousness"? The cittanupassana satipatthana is based on contemplation of mental states, not a direct contemplation of citta <"There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion."> Htoo: > 1. this is pleasant feeling. > 2. this is unpleasant feeling. > 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. > > 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) > 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) ... ... .... .... > There are originations of these feeling. This is another > contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these > feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is > thinking on both origination and dissolution. Tep: Could you please describe how one may do "contemplation" on feeling? You mentioned "thinking" above ("The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution".). Is contemplation equivalent to thinking? You also mentioned "thoughts" along with contemplation. Is "contemplation on feeling" equivalent to contemplating thought? How can feeling = thought and yet contemplation = thinking? (Htoo: "The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution") I am confused. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > >(snipped) > > There are 9 contemplations on feeling that arise within or that arise > internally. These feeling can be sensed by individual with their mind. > No outside individual will be able to sense those feelings but for > themselves. These 9 contemplations are > > 1. this is pleasant feeling. > 2. this is unpleasant feeling. > 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. > > 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) > 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) > 6. this is sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling.(neither) > > 7. this is non-sensuous pleasant feeling.(jhana/magga-pleasure) > 8. this is non-sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure not attaining) > 9. this is non-sensuous neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling. > (snipped) > > At some time the individual thinks on feelings in both his individual > and other individuals that there will be arising of feelings and > passing away of feeling. So there is a third set of 9 contemplations > on feeling. So there are altogether 27 contemplations on feeling. > > There are originations of these feeling. This is another > contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these > feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is > thinking on both origination and dissolution. These 3 contemplations > along with former 27 contemplations make 30 contemplations on feeling. > 47714 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Nina: "It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears." Hi Nina, For me, sati comes first, then body consciousness. Why remember a body consciousness? Btw, I was trying to figure out what presence is, the sense of nowness. Maybe it is just absence of discursive thinking (concept). Larry 47715 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beware of Din! and it's passive Chokma jonoabb Hi Lisa Yes, there are a lot of messages to keep up with (and much good content to consider). I have just the same problem as you. Looking forward to some jottings in due course when you have time to share with us your readings of those books. Thanks for letting us know you're still around. Jon Lisa wrote: >Greetings Jon (hello DSGers), > >I've been moving this last two weeks and work has been very heavy. >So sorry for not telling everyone what's happening. ... > >Jon I have many, many reference books,some very old and hard to find >because they are out of print,in regards to upakaraka dhamma and >also what is and is not dhamma or Dhamma. ... > > 47716 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? jonoabb Hi Herman Egbert wrote: >Firstly something about essence. The problem is as follows. How things >appear, and how they are, can be quite a few worlds apart, as you well >know. > >IMHO, human perceptual processes rely on the computation of >differences. So what is presented to consciousness as positive objects >with seemingly inherent characteristics, are, in fact, the >representations of the ever-changing difference between states of >non-conscious sensing. Now, if mental objects exist only as the >difference between states that no longer apply, how knowable is their >self-nature (essence)? > >Seeing as there is no knowable essence (self-nature) in anything, >because things come into being only as differences, its potential >relation to anatta is a moot point :-) > The above is an interesting line of thinking, but is it not possible that the moments of 'computation of differences' lie some distance up the cognitive tree (to use your own metaphor), and that preceding those moments there are moments of bare experience of sense-objects? Your comments seem to assume this cannot be so, but you do not give any basis for that assumption. Jon 47717 From: "balancing_life" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:05am Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.8 Kamma (3) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: MAHINDA e-CORRESPONDENCE COURSE Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.8 : THE LAW OF KAMMA (3) Free Will Kamma, as has been stated earlier, is not fate, is not irrevocable destiny. Nor is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion. The actions (Kamma) of men are generally not absolutely irrevocable; and only a few of them are so. If, for example, one fires off a bullet out of a rifle, one cannot call it back or turn it aside from its mark. But, if instead of a lead or iron ball through the air, it is an ivory ball on a smooth green board that one sets moving with a billiard cue, one can send after it and at it, another ball in the same way, and change its course. Not only that, if one is quick enough, and one has not given it too great an impetus, one might even get round to the other side of the billiard table, and send against it a ball which would meet it straight in the line of its course and bring it to a stop on the spot. With one's later action with the cue, one modifies, or even in favourable circumstances, entirely neutralises one's earlier action. It is much the same way that Kamma operates in the broad stream of general life. There too one's action (Kamma) of a later day may modify the effects of one's action (Kamma) of a former day. If this were not so, what possibility would there ever be of a man's getting free from all Kamma for ever. It would be perpetually self-continuing energy that could never come to an end. Man has, therefore, a certain amount of free will and there is almost every possibility to mould his life or to modify his actions. Even a most vicious person can by his own free will and effort become the most virtuous person. One may at any moment change for the better or for the worse. But everything in the world including man himself is dependent on conditions andwithout conditions nothing whatsoever can arise or enter into existence. Man therefore has only a certain amount of free will and not absolute free will. According to Buddhist philosophy, everything, mental or physical, arises in accordance with the laws and conditions. If it were not so, there would reign chaos and blind chance. Such a thing, however, is impossible, and if it would be otherwise, all laws of nature which modern science has discovered would be powerless. The real, essential nature of action (Kamma) of man is mental. When a given thought has arisen in one's mind a number of times, there is a definite tendency to recurrence of that thought. When a given act has been performed a number of times, there is a definite tendency to the repetition of the act. Thus, each act, mental or physical, tends to constantly produce its like, and be in turn produced. If a man thinks a good thought, speaks a good word, does a good deed, the effect upon him is to increase the tendencies to goodness present in him, is to make him a better man. If, on the contrary, he does a bad deed in thought, in speech or in action, he has strengthened in himself his bad tendencies; he has made himself a worse man. Having become a worse man, he will gravitate to the company of worse men in the future, and incur all the unhappiness of varying kinds that attends life in such company. On the other hand, the man of a character that is continually growing better, will naturally tend to the companionship of the good, and enjoy all the pleasantness and comforts and freedom from the ruder shocks of human life which such society connotes. In the case of a cultured man, even the effect of a greater evil may be minimised while the lesser evil of an uncultured man may produce its effect to the maximum according to the favourable and unfavourable conditions. Lessons Taught by Kamma The more we understand the law of Kamma the more we see how careful we must be of our acts, words and thoughts, and how responsible we are to our fellow beings. Living in the light of this knowledge, we learn certain lessons from the doctrine of Kamma. 1. PATIENCE Knowing that the Law is our great helper if we live by it, and that no harm can come to us if we work with it, knowing also it blesses us just at the right time, we learn the grand lesson of patience, not to get excited, and that impatience is a check to progress. In suffering, we know that we are paying a debt, and we learn if we are wise, not to create more suffering for the future. In rejoicing, we are thankful for its sweetness, and learn, if we are wise, to be still better. Patience brings forth peace, success, happiness and security. 2. CONFIDENCE The law being just, perfect, it is not possible for an understanding person to be uneasy about it. If we are uneasy and have no confidence, it shows clearly that we have not grasped the reality of the law. We are really quite safe beneath its wings, and there is nothing to fear in the entire wide universe except out own misdeeds. The Law makes man stand on his own feet and rouses his self- confidence. Confidence, strengthens, or rather deepens our peace and happiness and makes us comfortable, courageous; wherever we go the Law is our protector. 3. SELF-RELIANCE As we in the past have caused ourselves to be what we now are, so by what we do now will our future be determined. A knowledge of this fact and that the glory of the future is limitless, gives us great self-reliance, and takes away that tendency to appeal for external help, which is really no help at all. 'Purity and impurity belong to oneself, no one can purify another" says the Buddha. 4. RESTRAINT Naturally, if we realise that the evil we do will return to strike us, we shall be very careful lest we do or say or think something that is not good, pure and true. Knowledge of Kamma will restrain us from wrong doing for others' sakes as well as for our own. 5. POWER The more we make the doctrine of Kamma a part of our lives, the more power we gain, not only to direct our future, but to help our fellow beings more effectively. The practice of good Kamma, when fully developed, will enable us to overcome evil and limitations, and destroy all fetters that keep us from our goal, Nibbana. Questions 1. Can we change our kamma? 2. What other lessons that we can learned from the Law of Kamma? Answers (Module 2.7) 1. Why not everything is due to Kamma? The law of cause and effect (Kamma) is only one of the twenty-four causes described in Buddhist philosophy, or one of the five orders (Niyamas), which are laws in themselves and operate in the universe. 2. What kind of kamma takes effect in the following situation? a. A person work very hard and he then gained fame and riches. Regenerative (Janaka) Kamma, Moral Kamma and/or Supportive (Upatthambhaka) Kamma. Good Action that produce good results in this life and/or support the current good kamma to produce a better results. b. In his previous life, he is a merciless murderer but repent at his death bed and determine to make amend if he is given another opportunity to be reborn a human again. He is now a man again but born cripple. Death-proximate (Asanna) Kamma or Regenerative (Janaka) Kamma. At his deathbed he gained calm and positive vision - he reborn in the human realm again but his unwholesome action of the past produce bad results in this life. c. He can remember his past life. Garuka Kamma. A person who developed concentration and jhana in their past life produced a better and speedy results compare to a normal person in developing supernormal power in this life. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- --- End forwarded message --- 47718 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) kenhowardau Hi Phil, I agree that Kom, as you say, "saw through the error of meditating without right understanding of what was behind it." But does that leave open the possibility of meditating *with* right understanding of what was behind it? Wouldn't a person with right understanding be especially careful to avoid any formal (ritualised) vipassana practice? I think he would because it could be misleading - for him and for others. I don't know much about the daily routine of a monk. Perhaps Kom will be required by the Vinaya to sometimes sit silently with crossed legs and straight back the way the Bodhisatta did (and jhana meditators do). That might be a way of preserving the teaching, and showing respect, but nothing more, surely.(?) Ken H > I believe the conditions for people to benefit from "formal > meditation" and other seemingly intentional practices (actually > conditioned) do indeed arise. Take Kom. He meditated, then had the > chance to hear A. Sujin and saw through the error of meditating > without right understanding of what was behind it, and now > conditions have developed for him in a way that has him ordaining, > and presumably meditating again, with better understanding. Perhaps > they will change again, who knows? Perhaps I will meditate some day > too. I am meeting Rob M for the first time next week. Maybe meeting > and talking to him will be a decisive condition for becoming a > meditator the way meeting Rob K was for deepening my enthusiasm for > Abhidhamma. We have no way of knowing how conditions will work out. > A ramble there. > 47719 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Bring out your dead" Monty Python, as dead bodies are thrown on the bandwagon ksheri3 Evan, now you've struck upon the crux of the matter concerning a lot of my positions: you are deliberately misinterpreting what I say so as to create a dialogue that can be used for the benefit of those less versed in the psychology of the situation. While this may be an honorable act it only serves to fulfill the wills, acts, ect., of others and not the intentions that I had. This then, is the usurption of my rights to free will and determination for the communist group and those lesser, by a person not of my chosing. If my rights are to be taken away then I shall designate where those rights are going and not allow a meglamaniac to arbitrarily just "well it's a god given right that we in this or that tax bracket dole out the rights to those that we are willing to permit lick the bottoms of our shoes." Times up for the day but be on notice that I will be returning to this subject. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Colette, > <...> > -------------------------------------- > The rock is steady. The mind once it gains its steadyness is also like a > rock. > > That is all I need to say about that. > -------------------------------------- <...> 47720 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Public Apology to Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/15/05 5:02:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard Thanks for this, but really there's no need to apologise. The areas we discuss here are sensitive ones for everyone, and there is bound to be reaction from time to time. I realise it is just frustration, and nothing personal. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks very much, Jon! -------------------------------------- But I appreciate your writing and saying what you have. I hope you will keep up our exchanges as before. ------------------------------------ Howard: For sure I will happily keep up our exchanges, but hopefully not *quite* as before! ;-) ------------------------------------ Jon ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47721 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sesos con todo ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > --- colette wrote: shed on both documents and a deeper understanding. > ... > S: yes, that's how I see it. > ... > > > So in Samyutta Nikay LVI.11 "...Wheel of Truth" we find > > > > "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is > > remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relingquishing, letting > > go and rejecting, of that same craving." > > > > I once had rooms of fine furniture, china, crystal, blah blah blah > > that I got from my youth, upbringing, but one day in L.A. I just > > said: "there's no way out, it will never end, they will continually > > demand more and more from me..." So I just up and hit the road. > .... > S: I think there can be just as much attachment, craving and suffering > whether we have or don't have all these goodies. > I think Evan made this point too. colette: ah, don't you see the exploitation going on here? They (the media megopolis) had me in a situation where my wildest fantasies had come true yet I had not grasped and possessed what they had offered to me. With this as the case then, I had the doors of consciousness at my beck & call, having the skeleton key, master key, which allowed easy access to any doorway, still they were not my doorways. They, the media megopolis, then has the chance to exploit me to open doors they would not, walk where angles fear to tred. I had the baubles & trinkets and renounced them but now they, the media, abuse the potential that I crave these things. It is a no win situation for me since they will always refuse to accept responsibility for their actions. As long as I crave they will deny me. As long as I laugh at them for their stupidity they will deny me. The media is the same as any other business in this world. Do not think there is differences. Look for the similarities and the fit into the premise that they are not human but dead, see Vampires, that they are robots, see Henry Ford and General Motors, made on an assembly line, etc. Sure some people will say that you are fulfilling your own fantasy by rationalising the truth of your parents existance into something that is not as good and sugar coated as they would like you to believe but that's from their pair of shoes, POV, from your POV you may actually be doing yourself a favor by not telling yourself falsehoods. Oh sure, like you're gonna tell me that people actually believe, and expect me to believe that the Nazis didn't exist and did not do what they did? ------------------------- Colette, as I'm sure you know well, we think the problem is the > other people's expectations, demands and so on, but of course this is just > our own thinking. The Buddha's teachings help us to really face the truth > courageously and see that the only demands and expectations and cravings > that really hurt are our own. colette: that's old hat deary. It's not an easy path to follow, but the > bread crumbs are there for those with the honesty to see them and pick > them up. > .... > > >Damn > > those baubles and trinkets. I have learned how to do this so very > > very well since 1981 that it's part of me. If ya don't believe me > > then look how much clothes I have that all came from the church and > > the dumpster. It really isn't that important since IT IS NOT ME MY > > SELF. > ... > S: No, it's not important unless we make it important. Again, as Evan > stressed, understanding the teachings has nothing to do with being rich or > poor, dressed one way or another or following any particular lifestyle. > They are for anyone who can appreciate the benefit. Each time we judge > others or feel embittered in anyway, we pile on the suffering, so to > speak. colette: I think my agrivation comes from the fact that people who are wealthy and have a spoon with slow poison stuck in their mouths from cradle to grave, <...>, is that they are so consumed with greed that they actually manifest the situations where others will do this type of research and study so as to come along and without any effort lay claim to the results and thereby vindicate an entire existance of the class struggle and the aristocracy supposed god-given-right to murder people, horde wealth, etc. > > I follow all your posts. I can only say that you have a lot of good > friends here, Colette. Give the Theravada teachings a chance and let us > give you support on the path. > > As I've been saying to others, apart from quick comments here and there, I > may not be able to respond to any new messages for sometime as I'm going > on a trip soon. colette: is that a universal trip that we're all destined to be taking at one time or another? Hopefully not and we can enjoy your company at a latter date, but if it is then I can only say how lucky you must be to be able to laugh at the suffering of this world. via con dios, colette 47722 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: Sutta name egberdina Hi Chris (and thanks to Howard and Larry for the links) and all, It is good to see you popping up here and there :-) I am sure that it would turn out to be a very rewarding experience if I was able to make it to Cooran, but alas, I'm going to have to make do with Jon and Sarah in Sydney. Oh well :-) Some more below. > > Thanks for posting Michael Olds' translation, it was nice to read it > again. He created the Buddhadust site which he has chosen to > permanently take down. Disappointing - as it was a valuable and > refreshing resource, and visited regularly by many of us. > I have been thinking a lot about the translators art lately. I am of course not even a translators left nostril, but at the moment I am acutely aware of the gravity of rendering the words of the Buddha in another tongue, while maintaining the meaning. Translating is quite different to offering one's own interpretation of what is read, because it is generally obvious that the interpretation is the writer's, not the Buddha's. But when one starts with "Thus have I heard" or "I hear tell" it is quite another matter. Lately there has been some comment on dsg that individual suttas should be read in light of the entire Canon and commentaries. And from my visits to sites that busy themselves with translating Pali texts, it is obvious that there are translators who render words according to their reading of the entire Canon, not just the sutta at hand. I am starting to think that every sutta translation should be accompanied by a list of the individual original words and their individual translations, with the translations being limited to the words only (translators ought to refrain from putting doctrinal spin on words). This way, it is the reader who constructs the meaning of the sutta, not the translator. I would highly value your thoughts, and any one else's , on this matter. Kind Regards Herman 47723 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:05pm Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi Agrios, I can relate to what you are saying. Just to make sure I am not going to be misunderstood, I want to make it clear that I do not think of what I am writing about as useful or an attainment of sorts, but it is real. > > ------ > > N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the > object so > > that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible > object, > > and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. > [...] > Hi Nina and all, > you are actually explaining papanca sanna sankhara. > I am not curious about thinking which arises from various sources, > but rather about mental pictures popping up by themself, without any > thinker being involved. They may originate in portfolio of sanna > created tags. I can't say. > > Let me give few examples: > A person is listening to the music with his/her eyes closed. > Visual images will start to pop-up in the mind. > There are sota related processes going on, but mano vinnana is > pictorial. > Visual specifics of them are not actually reminiscent of anything > known. > I can get into what I call a certain state of dissociation, and then a slide show starts playing with rapidly changing images. As in your description, I can't relate the images to anything I know. As to the source of it, I wonder as well, but have no idea. I hadn't come across the term papanca sanna sankhara before, but it sounds like a pretty useful term. A salient feature of memory is that relates things. A marked object is meaningless without a context of other (absent) marked objects. Kind Regards Herman > Or: > A person is practicing and sudden whip of visually intensive nature, > let say brightness or movement of some red shapes pops up in mind, > triggering various reactions. > > Or: > A person is about to sleep but sudden shake of unknown to me origin > is giving his/her feeling of deep chill. There is body reaction > of skin and hair standing up. > > I am interested in origination of it back to the source. > What is the source of it. > > With much respect, > Agrios. 47724 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:46pm Subject: Re: Sutta name corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Lately there has been some comment on dsg that individual suttas > should be read in light of the entire Canon and commentaries. And from > my visits to sites that busy themselves with translating Pali texts, > it is obvious that there are translators who render words according to > their reading of the entire Canon, not just the sutta at hand. > > I am starting to think that every sutta translation should be > accompanied by a list of the individual original words and their > individual translations, with the translations being limited to the > words only (translators ought to refrain from putting doctrinal spin > on words). This way, it is the reader who constructs the meaning of > the sutta, not the translator. > > I would highly value your thoughts, and any one else's , on this matter. Hi Herman I don't have time to become a Pali translator, so I have to rely on the scholarship of others. I think I made the point once before (and I think it was to you, actually) that, to be able to judge the merit of others' scholarship, one really needs to be a scholar oneself. So there's the rub - how to know which is the better scholarship when one has little knowledge in the field of expertise. Just as well that knowledge and wisdom are not one and the same thing!! I think it is a good idea to have access to the original Pali and various translations of it. A good reminder that the translation issue is a factor to be considered. Of course, here at DSG, some people espouse using Pali terms instead of English translations but this annoys others who see it as arrogant etc. Re your suggestion that words in a sutta should be translated to fit that sutta without regard to how the word is used in other suttas is problematic. The translator must surely then explain why the same word is being translated differently in different parts of the suttanta. If there is a valid explanation, bring it on ... Otherwise we end up with a Kant-style dog's breakfast [the philosopher Kant was a prolific writer who changed the meanings/definitions of terms he used throughout his career, such that one really needs to date the Kant piece one is reading to know precisely what he is on about - it could mean something very different if it came from a different part of his career.] Also, I'm sure you are familiar with Biblical translation controversy which spans several languages. At least we are only concerned with Pali here! In summary, language translation is a difficulty we can't escape but we should always be aware of it. Thanks for raising it. Best wishes Andrew T 47725 From: "agriosinski" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:04pm Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: [...] > I can get into what I call a certain state of dissociation, and then a > slide show starts playing with rapidly changing images. As in your > description, I can't relate the images to anything I know. > > As to the source of it, I wonder as well, but have no idea. [...] Hi Herman, yeah.. seems we are talking about the same thingy :) This things seems to be kamma related, definitely Self made, and the more carefully I observe them, the more there is of them. Thinking about them leads nowhere, just more propositions to check out. Experience is having profound impact on my life, literally ruling big part of it. It feels like they are some sort of visualisations of objects Self makes in this objectless reality. I wonder if there is any abidhammic explanation to it. There is great work by Nobel laureate Gerald Edelman called NGS theory, if you are interested. metta, Agrios. 47726 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:36pm Subject: I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nichiconn hi, dsg, apologies for all the careless spelling and other sloppiness: i am just too lazy right now to look up whatever, however they might be spelled, the names of the 3 rounds i guessed at don't wanna wait around to get answers for other questions... who all is who, etc. and don't know that i'll ever get back to finishing, so.... peace, c. ps. thank you. ====== I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 friday, 29 oct 2005 discussion with ajahn sujin [ta], sarah, nina, john, jill, azita, shakti, christine 'nor kill' hotel garden sikkhim? : alright, and we're away : ready to go? : ok : here we are in sikkhim sitting in a lovely garden and it's nina's last day with us and i know that what she'd really like to hear about most is the, : seeing and visible object : well, seeing and visible object and also about the three rounds maybe even more, about saccinyana kiccinyana katinyana so, perhaps, i don't know if there's any aspect in particular you'd like to hear about, Nina? : Anything in particular? : I feel that the reminders that you gave to us in the situation help most to understand the 3 rounds so that we see more that's not theory and at first we heard it again and again and it's uh we could repeat it, what you said, but now, slowly, it becomes more meaningful anyway but we like to keep on listening and having reminders in the situation of daily life in the situation of this trip. it's very, very helpful because in two weeks i can learn more than in a whole year or so at home. ta: if we don't forget that the teachings of buddha is according to his understanding and enlightenment, we'll not be careless and think that it's very easy. because even one word from the book, uh, brought down by those arahatas who knew so well the meaning of the words and they had enlighten all those realities, too. so for us, i think that as one read the tipitaka, one should know whether it is one's one understanding or not yet. this is the most important thing. because the panna can not be the same like those, so whenever one reads, one shouldn't be heedless about this or that word, but one should consider more and more. as we said yesterday about visible object, see? seeing and visible object. it is now. and it is so common for those who do not study, just that. or those who just learn to think about the name, like seeing, nama and visible object, rupa. That is not enough. because buddha didn't just develop his understanding just to tell us about the name of all these realities, but he had to use the term to define and to point out the characteristic of reality, for those who is not careless will develop gradually until it's one's own understanding. For example, visible object is now is one's own understanding that it's just that which can be seen? : i wasn't honed in on a word you said there because I've, some people have talked about, you know, feeling lazy if you don't do something, but you're saying if you're not careless. and that, again, it's talking about mindfulness, but can you say a bit more about the care? ta: ah, when one's, for the word careless, one shouldn't be careless, it means there is viriya, so one is not careless. It doesn't mean that we have to talk about viriya some other time, but at the moment of talking about visible object and there can be the wise attention, very carefully, that what is appearing now cannot be anything at all but that which can be seen, just very fast, from moment to moment, and viriya is there. It doesn't mean that one is lazy at all when one study the teaching. : that's very helpful. thank you. ta: uh huh. this is the careful of studying, to know when there is viriya but people might think that they have to do other extra thing, not like this moment. but now there is viriya. who knows? those who had enlighten know, knew about this, but for the person who just begin to read, one has to consider that no one can do any viriya or no one can create any viriya because viriya is there already. so who can do anything? it's there. it arises and it falls away. who can do, anything? realities are conditioned. Develop right understanding more and more until it becomes one's own penetration of the true nature of realities. : so it's really, it's like anything else, Khun Sujin, by the seem of it. that it is actually building habits. : right : this is kusala habit, this is habit of the highest degree. : yes, yes, yes ta: if one knows that understanding has to develop until it can pentrate reality at this moment, one knows that one is in the wrong, in uh, the right path. not wrong, because now there is reality, but panna cannot approach the characteristic of reality without more and more saccayana(?), see? so there must be saccayana first before there can be the kiccayana (?) , which means the realities which are the path are performing or working their way on to understand better and better of the reality which is now appearing. Never enough. Panna is never enough. whether what one hear is from just taken from the book, or just by developing more understanding until it's one's own words, one's own understanding, so one can help the other to understand by different accumulations. For example, khun nina's accumulation, khun sarah accumulation, and khun jonothan accumulation, and the others' accumulation, they can present what they know by their own words, their own understanding, like those in the buddha's time. : if we ask ourselves that question and the conclusion is that it's all still in the book, uh, what, uh, what can we do? : laughter ta: by knowing that it's just from the book, then one knows there is also the path leading to experience reality as it is, but not in one's life as one expect. but one knows by oneself how much one begin to understand the moments with awareness and without awareness. that's why before his death, by the time he was at vessali, buddha went along to kusijinara, what he taught for all those 3 months was about satipatthana jon: in the mahaparinibbana sutta ta: m hm, yeah. otherwise, how can he, how could he develop such things for being the sammasambuddho if he couldn't help anyone to become enlightened? nina: sitting in the bus and it is very, very hard ta: what about now? : laughter nina: easier! : so much accumulations hardness, hardness, hardness nina: because here you remind us we have reminder but when we are sitting in the bus without you it's harder ta: uh, you see that when we talk about visible object and we don't forget that it arises and falls away so fast then we know that as fast as that, so, whenever there's a little understanding of it, it's gone. see? so we do not cling any more to any thing because at the moment of a glimpse of understanding that it's just a reality and then there can be more and more moment and then there will be less and less attachment to nimitta and anubyanjana. so one one can understand what is in the teachings about have having less attachment to nimitta and anubyanjana. not just by thinking that now i don't have clinging, but it must be the moment of awareness. because at that very moment there must be a characteristic of a reality appearing to sati so how can there be nimitta and anubyanjana, see? so when we're getting used to the characteristic of reality, more and more, which are not the same as before at all, because each one is conditioned and goes away so fast, all the time. : so in the initial stages, Khun Sujin, I mean at the stage of um, vipassanyana that knows the difference between nama and rupa, in the initial stages, it seems as though it's, you know, the characteristic : is not clear, ya? ta: It has to be like that. when the children go to kindergarten school, they don't know any a b c d. they learn little by little and after that, when time pass they can read fluently, see. so i think that if one keeps on thinking about vipassanyana it's quite a hindrance. because one just, what do you call, speculate, how is that moment, how can it become as clear as realities, see? So, I think that as one knows the difference between moments with awareness and moment without awareness, without thinking, without speculating, it helps. because at that moment there is no room for lobha to come in, but lobha, no one can stop it because there are stores (laugh) for its arising more, very often. But panna can know, and panna can see that it's a reality, so that there will be less agitation when there is akusala. It takes time to really understand reality at this moment. we keep on talking about cetasikas, see, at this very moment: phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekagata, jivitindriya, manasikara. No one appears to sati because it just arises and goes away instantly, but whenever there is sati it begins to see the characteristic which is not that which is rupa but it is nama, or the nama which is not the rupa, see? This must be very clear comprehended. otherwise, it's not clear. so one cannot make it clear when it's not clear. but that can develop, too, very gradual, clearer and clearer. In one's life one cannot know whether it will become as clear as one think about it. : when we were in, let me see, nalanda we were talking about sappaya or what is suitable like sappaya sampajanna and you were saying about, you know, what is suitable IF there is right understanding, so for example, nina yesterday was just talking about oh, in the bus, not so good or here more suitable and of course any time is ok, but we read for example, in the satipatthana sutta about the right place and the right climate for the people with understanding to develop satipatthana. so now the climate at this moment seems very suitable. does it refer to um just you know, experiences through the body sense like if one's healthy for example, if there is understanding, being support conditions at that moment, is this the meaning? ta: there is not only one suitable thing for right understanding and buddha knew the whole suitable things for the whole world or : all the different conditions, right. ta: yeah, so what he talked suits someone for that suitable thing and for the other, but, but if you don't mind at all because satipatthana does not mind, yeah. but as the beginner one might think that o, i cannot do this because i'm so tired and things like that. : I'm sick, or ta: it's true, see, for that moment : but it's uh, i mean when one talks about these things like oh i'm too tired or i'm sick or climate isn't right and then it refers to the climate or whatever, it has to be realities because these are just different stories or concepts, so when it talks about what the buddha knew as being suitable at that moment and it just mentions oh place and climate, it's actually referring to what is heard and experiences through body sense to the realities at that moment to support conditions, is that correct? ta: much more than just what is said : much deeper ta: so, one reads with deeper understanding : like going to the holy places and paying respect to the relics, of course, it depends on the understanding at that moment. i think that understanding sappaya (or what is suitable), it has to go deeper and deeper because in the beginning one reads oh what is suitable is the right place or the right person, or even when you were mentioning in nalanda, about listening. i mean, listening doesn't just mean how much you, how many hours you hear Dhamma or something like that, it can, you know, when one's reading, just a line of a sutta there may be more wise reflection than when one listens for two hours, it just depends. : I think this sappaya must be just a momentary thing. and as i understand it would apply to i mean whether i decide to stay here or go on the outing rather than, i mean, i think we tend to think of a bit of a macro picture like which country should i live in or would it be better if i um change my job or something like that, but I think that kind of thinking of conditions is slightly artificial and is not what it's referring to. but it's referring to more you know on a moment to moment basis of deciding to do a instead of b just at that instant of making a decision rather than planning to have things a certain way, because we can't control the outcome : and we may get on the bus and it may be sappaya, it may be suitable at that moment : of course, it could : because there may be some : other people on the bus : or just one's own wise reflection on the bus or one may just sit here and just be lost in in one's lobha who knows? : yeah, yeah, yeah ta: see that we are talking about this in order to have less attachment because the teachings concern about detachment from the very beginning, with understanding. Without understanding there cannot be detachment at all. When Jonothan said like this one is detached from places which is one thinks suitable : better or useful or people even : there's a very fine line between attachment towards, i can imagine in the buddha's time, but more particularly now, you know that, we seem, speak for myself, whenever 'Dhamma discussion!', forget the bus, who cares about lakes or tibetan monasteries and you know, many different moments, but even back in the buddha's time there would have been a lot of attachment i can imagine to the buddha and to, well, attachment to the teachings rather than just understanding of the value of the teachings : different moments? ta: as long as it's not completely eradicated : and then there's the sutta of the monk who went to the buddha and said give me a teaching in brief so that I can go off and live apart and contemplate and the buddha gave him a teaching in brief, which he, i mean the buddha didn't say, well, you know, hang around here and you'll hear more here because he : knew : conditions, yeh ta: he knew his accumulations, yes : i appreciated the other day when you gave the one simplistic teaching of distilling everything down to the one word: anatta. and it was like ok, it feels so ok, i can think my whole, or contemplate the whole life on just this ta: by contemplate, what do you mean? : just to reflect that all the everything i perceive to be i, me or mine really is anatta ta: not about one particular : yes, ta: reality like seeing now? : yes, also touching ta: seeing now, touching now. yeah, very particular reality : I like the stress on this moment and i also liked it very much yesterday when you said when there's pain and no panna, it's my pain, and when there is panna it's just a reality, just a dhamma. i found that....{ends} 47727 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:09pm Subject: The 10 mental perfections in their three levels ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The three Stages of Mental Perfection: The 10 Mental Perfections (paramis = paramitas) are: 1: Generosity (Dana) 2: Morality (Sila) 3: Withdrawal (Nekkhamma) 4: Understanding (Panna) 5: Enthusiastic Energy (Viriya) 6: Patient Forbearance (Khanti) 7: Honesty & Truthfulness (Sacca) 8: Resolute Determination (Adhitthana) 9: Kind Friendliness (Metta) 10: Balanced Equanimity (Upekkha) The Buddha said: 'So few as these only, are these supreme mental qualities, which matures Awakening. There is nothing elsewhere beyond them! Be thorough, firm & complete in them...' These 10 mental perfections are developed to these three levels: I: Those who awakens as disciples = Savaka-Bodhis (basic level) give all possessions away including wife and kids... II: Those who awakens as Solitary Buddhas = Pacekkha-Buddhas give an organ, limb or eye away... (intermediate level) III: Those who awakens as Perfect Buddhas = SammasamBuddhas give even their own life away. (ultimate level) The basic perfection of generosity is the relinquishing of one's children, wives, and belongings, such as wealth; the intermediate perfection of giving, the relinquishing of one's own limbs; and the ultimate perfection of giving, the relinquishing of one's own life. The three stages in the perfection of morality should be understood as the non-transgression of morality on account of the three: children and wife, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of withdrawal, as the withdrawal of those three bases after cutting off attachment to them; the three stages in the perfection of understanding, as the discrimination between what is beneficial and harmful to beings after rooting out craving for one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of energy, as striving for the relinquishing of the aforementioned things; the three stages in the perfection of patience, as the endurance of obstacles to one's belongings, limbs, and life; the three stages in the perfection of Honesty, as the non-abandoning of honesty on account of one's belongings, limbs, & life; the three stages of perfection of determination, as unshakeable determination despite the destruction of one's belongings, limbs, & life, bearing in mind that perfections ultimately succeed through a unflinching determination; the three stages in the perfection of friendliness, as the maintaining of friendliness towards any who destroy one's belongings; the three stages in the perfection of equanimity, as maintaining an attitude of impartial neutrality towards beings & constructions, whether they are helpful or harmful in regard to the aforementioned three: belongings, limbs, and life. In this way the analysis of the mental perfections should be understood. Source: Commentary on the Basket of Behaviour: Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi in: Treatise on the Perfections: Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views _________________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <....> 47728 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Definition of 'Mind' ? bhikkhu_ekamuni Dear friend sarah abbott wrote: > "Intention always comes first' etc. Dhp1 > Usually I think 'mind' is used. Indeed. It is an experimental rendering: BTW: How is Mind defined? As which 5 things? : - ] 47730 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Ken > I agree that Kom, as you say, "saw through the error of meditating > without right understanding of what was behind it." But does that > leave open the possibility of meditating *with* right understanding > of what was behind it? Wouldn't a person with right understanding be > especially careful to avoid any formal (ritualised) vipassana > practice? I think he would because it could be misleading - for him > and for others. You know Ken, answering this question is way beyond my understanding and would just be speculating. We know that in the suttas there are monks who meditate with right understanding and benefit from it. I often hear that people these days simply don't have the accumulated wisdom, I think, that people in the Buddha's day had. I don't know exactly why that is - I'm sure there are texts that support it- but except for the odd post here I don't think about meditating. On occasion I find myself sitting on our tatami floor, drinking tea, and lo and behold I find myself meditating using the method I learned before but it just feels silly. For me, silly, and drenched in lobha. But I think since we don't know the accumulations of others it is best not to say that all meditators are operating with wrong view. It might be easier for Kom to fall into it in a natural, unforced way since he is Thai, and if I recall all or most Thai men ordain at some point, for shorter or longer periods. Perhaps there are family expectations for him to do so that would allow him to fall into it without having too much greed for results. Who knows? Best to give people the benefit of the doubt, as Kel said the other day. > I don't know much about the daily routine of a monk. Perhaps Kom will > be required by the Vinaya to sometimes sit silently with crossed legs > and straight back the way the Bodhisatta did (and jhana meditators > do). That might be a way of preserving the teaching, and showing > respect, but nothing more, surely.(?) I wonder. It would have been interesting to hear from Kom. He spoke so lucidly about why he stopped meditating. But we needn't think about others so much. It's our own accumulations that are important. We will know or won't know why meditating involves or would involve wrong view. Panna will know. If you don't mind, I'd like to drop the topic there. I do hope we'll hear from Kom again someday, whether he's a monk or not. Metta, Phil 47731 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:52am Subject: Re: Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Thanks for the thoroughly researched and presented post. It is a pleasure to discuss suttas with you. Nina: All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. James: I'm not sure what you mean here. Questions about what is "real" as opposed to "unreal" don't seem that important to the Buddha's teaching, as far as I can tell. The Buddha didn't raise questions of what was real as opposed to what was not real- he actually discouraged such speculative thought. He taught that disciples must know the elements in order to be wise and to foser detachment. In my opinion, emphasizing what is 'real' as opposed to 'not real' will encourage attachment to what one deems as 'real'. The elements are the elements; they are not superior, inferior or equal to anything else. Nina: In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the relevant sense-cognitions. When the listeners in the Buddha's time heard: they were not passive listeners, they could be aware then and there of visible object or seeing, without confusing them and thus they could realize their falling away, one at a time. They would not confuse eye-door and mind-door, seeing and thinking, they would not take dhammas together as a whole, a concept, and so many of them could attain enlightenment while they listened. James: You seem to be making a logical connection here that I just don't read in this sutta. This is the connection you make, as I see it: Confusing nama and rupa ---> Taking dhammas together as a whole ---> Taking dhammas as a concept ---> Not being able to attain enlightenment. Now, I'm a stickler on the Buddha's word and I don't see the Buddha making this type of connection in this sutta. Sure, you could maybe draw this conclusion, but drawing conclusions is rather dangerous for worldlings. I find it better to stick specifically to the Buddha word. (I know that this dogmatic approach can be rather boring for a discussion group, when everyone wants to present opinions and speculate outcomes, but the dhamma isn't supposed to be used as a form of 'entertainment'.) Nina: When you are back I would like to read more suttas with you. Starting another thread? James: How very kind of you to ask. I highly value the discussion and reading of suttas, especially with one as learned as you. I will see what things are like when I return. I will be in a temporary flat for a while and my Nikaya collection is packed away, except DN which I am currently reading. Things may be very hectic for me at my new school at the beginning. We will play it by ear. But please, do present any suttas in the meantime that you would like to discuss. Metta, James 47732 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok buddhatrue Hi Nick (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Nick, (Sukin and all), > > Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting. > --- Nicholas Benedict wrote: > > > Hi, This is my first post. > > I live in Bangkok, Thailand. Can anybody tell me where there is a > > teacher I can go to in the city. Are there any meditation groups here > > for English speakers or foreigners? > ... > S: Yes, you're going to get a lot of help. I know Sukin (and maybe Betty > and Ivan Matt if they're reading) will 'adopt' you and help with lots of > details and answer any questions. others who've spent time in Bangkok like > James or Phil may add comments too. I'm afraid I don't know of any meditation groups in Bangkok. When I was in Thailand the first time it was for vacation and I mainly visited temples, attended dhamma talks, and such. The second time I was at Wat Pah Nanachat, which is composed of English speaking monks, but the Vice Abbott himself told me that they try to discourage visitors and giving dhamma talks/lessons to the laity- some nonsense about how too many visitors could ruin the 'forest temple atmosphere'. So, I don't recommend that anyone go to that temple for any reason. Metta, James 47733 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > I hope you're enjoying your break in Arizona. It must be quite a change of > scene. James: Thanks. Yes, it is quite different- but maybe not in ways you would expect. I will probably send out a private update later. Have you been back to your temple? James: No, not yet. Transportation problems- the heat broke my mom's radiator! ;-)). But, my dad got four used computers to donate to the temple so I will be visiting them as soon as possible. > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >S: James, yes, it's interesting how we read the same passages in > > suttas with > > > our different perspectives. Yes, I find it more helpful to look at > > dhammas > > > more and more as being anatta and less and less as being yours and > > mine. > > > > James: I didn't comment about 'dhammas', I commented about the > > content of suttas. > ... > S: Ah, but isn't the content of suttas about dhammas? > .... James: No, not always. Most of the suttas are about what you would call 'concepts'. > > > You wonder why I don't take a more 'personalized view', but this > > because I > > > see the truths as being common or universal. > > > > James: Then, in other words, you speak in a generalized way because > > you believe that you embody the 'truths'? > ... > S: No, I don't believe this. The `truths' are all there are. Let's take > the khandhas – they are not inside or outside or belonging to anyone. > There only are the khandhas arising and falling away. This is what I > believe or what the thinking which I call `I' believes at this moment. > .... James: Ah, I like that last qualification: "This is what I believe or what the thinking which I call `I' believes at this moment." That is getting closer to my point. > >Do you believe that > > everyone embodies the 'truths'? Aren't there differences between > > people? > ... > S: Not only for different people but also for us – different cittas and > cetasikas experiencing and being experienced at each moment. So the truth > is that what we take for people and ourselves are just these different > namas and rupas too, of course. > .... James: This dialogue is between 'Sarah' and 'James'- not between isolated namas and rupas. But, again, we are getting back to the old absolute reality vs. conventional reality discussion. > >Why can't you single yourself out as being different from > > others? Why can't you see the dhamma in a more personalized way, as > > applying to you and your life? > ... > S: It's no problem, but usually I don't find it helpful. To give you a > `personalized' example: I read Azita's comments about annoyance with > people and I started reflecting on how I don't think so much about people > or find them annoying as I might have in the past. But immediately as I > thought like this, there was attachment and conceit and clinging to an > idea of `my thinking' and `my lesser annoyance'. James: Excellent example of mindfulness. I think that without the critical self-judgement it would be perfect. > > See here how the banner is up and flying already without needing to > advertise it further or cling to it anymore. Better to just understand > these dhammas – the thinking, the annoyance, the attachment, the > conceit—as conditioned dhammas, not self at all. When it's all `my > experience', there's no understanding of the Buddha's teachings. James: See, now here you are trying to tell 'yourself' that there is 'no self' so there 'should' be no attachment. I find this approach to be artifical and a forcing of insight that isn't natural. > > I think that such attachment to `self' catches us off-guard all the time. > But it's just another dhamma and awareness can slip in at anytime, even > when there's useless thinking with papanca going on like this. James: Yes, there is attachment to 'self', but awareness doesn't include 'should be's' or 'better to's'- it just is. > > I hope that helps and is `personal' enough:). You see, I'm trying to work > toward agreement too:)). James: Yes, very nice revealing of personal thought processes. I appreciate it. I will be happy to return the favor if you should ask. > ..... > > James: Again, I wasn't talking about 'dhammas', I was talking about > > DN 8 "The Great Lion's Roar". The Buddha doesn't mention 'dhammas' in > > that sutta. > ... > S: He's talking about wholesome and unwholesome states and the path out of > samsara. I read these as being dhammas. James: You would need to explain a bit more, if you wish. I think we use different terminology. > .... > <...> > >>Another short favourite > > sutta or > > > rather verse of mine is that Udana with King Pasenadi and Queen > > Mallika > > > which makes the point that we all find 'self' dearest. > > > > James: No, that sutta said that Queen Mallika found herself dearest, > > not that everyone does that; and the Buddha agreed that we should > > each hold ourselves dearest. Maybe you should re-visit that sutta. > .... > S: Qu Mallika: `There is no one...dearer to me than myself.' > > K. Pasenadi: `Neither is there anyone...dearer to me than myself.' > > The Buddha: `On traversing all directions with the mind > One finds no one anywhere dearer than oneself.'. > .... > S: I think this makes it pretty clear that this is a common affliction > before such attachment has been eradicated. > > Did the Buddha agree that we should each hold ourselves dearest? I don't > think so. > > `Likewise everyone holds himself most dear, > Hence one who loves himself should not harm another.' > > In other words, just as we are very attached to ourselves, so are others. > Bearing this in mind, we should treat others well. > > The commentary which I've quoted before makes this very clear, I believe. > > "....whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) > excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in > any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.......since each being holds the > self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for > whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting > well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, > should not even antagonize with the hand, a clod of earth or a stick and > so on, another being......For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some > other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one's > (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law > of karma." (Masefiled transl of comy, Ireland transl of sutta, Sona > Chapter 1, Udana) > .... James: Oh Sarah, this would be a huge tangle to unravel and it couldn't be done through this posting method. Let me just make it simple: the Buddha taught that his monks should generate a heart full of lovingkindness (see DN 8 we have been discussing). The Vism. describes the cultivation of lovingkindness as beginning with lovingkindness toward oneself. Now, you are going to find various obscure passages of suttas and commentaries to refute the nature and spirit of this because, as we have established earlier in this post, you artifically downplay the importance of yourself in order to reach some idealized notion of anatta. There is a dichotomy here which can't be reconciled by you or K. Sujin (as I noted in a previous post). > > I wasn't suggesting to cultivate more thoughts about 'me'; I was > > suggesting that maybe it isn't healthy or natural to blur the > > distinctions between me, you, and us. > ... > S: I'm suggesting that the sooner dhammas are seen for what they are, not > me, you and us, the better. James: Of course, wave that flag of anatta! ;-)) Of course this doesn't mean at all that we > forget who we're talking to or have any difficulty relating on a > conventional level. > .... James: ;-)) I hope you don't think this after-though solves anything. > > James: Oh, let's focus more on where we agree than where we > > disagree. Believe it or not, I am trying to work toward agreement. > ... > S: I can see that and I think we've made some progress. Anyway, we both > agree that there's a lot to usefully consider in the sutta you selected > and that the teachings are very deep. > > I do find it difficult to post on the road, James, and find it a good > chance to work on the tape editing etc instead if I have any free time. > However, I will be following the list very closely and will try to chip in > briefly here and there, so no need for any panic attacks..lol:-)) > Seriously, you always say the list is better when the moderators go > away(or when we give the illusion of doing so), so enjoy! I'll look > forward to more discussions (apart from any `chip-ins') with you later. James: Well, I must have been gone when you wrote this- so I didn't get to enjoy that feeling of reckless freedom with the moderators away! ;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Metta, James 47734 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Hi Jon, > > > > > >... > >It amazes me how you keep coming back to this subject. Do you think > >I am an expert on satipatthana or something? ;-)) > > > > Yes I do think that; isn't everyone on this list an expert in > satipatthana? ;-)) ;-)) James: ;-)) Wouldn't that be nice. > > Seriously though, I see you as an independent thinker but at the same > time as someone who has sufficient confidence in or respect for the > texts to be wary about disregarding what is there simply because it > appears not to concur with your experience to date. James: This is a very nice compliment! Thank you. > > But to be frank, that is not why I have been pursuing this topic. I > have been questioning your interpretation of the kayanupassana section > of the Satipatthana Sutta as laying down 'activities' that are > 'conducive to insight'. That is why in my last post I asked you how you > see the development of mindfulness under those sections of the sutta > that do not specify any 'actions conducive to insight'. > > The response you gave to that question (below) doesn't really answer the > question, as far as I can see. However, I don't wish to press the > subject if you'd rather not continue the discussion. James: I don't mind continuing the discussion, but it hasn't really been a discussion. It has been you asking me question after question and me trying my best to answer them. The discussion would go better if you would just lay your cards on the table; in other words, tell me what you are thinking without asking me any questions. > > Apologies if you feel 'nitpicked' (see Herman's post) ;-)) James: Herman is right, I do feel nitpicked at times. But that is because you tend to ask leading questions rather than being direct about what you are thinking. > > Jon Metta, James 47735 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: 30 vedananupassanas or 30 contemplations on feeling htootintnaing Dear Tep and interested members, I think it is a good idea to check meaning of 1. passati 2. contemplate 3. think 4. consciousness 5. thought 6. viharati 7. dwell 8. stay 9. live 10.perceive 11.mind 12.mental state Whatever you and others check these words in different English dictionaries or not I will be answering your questions below. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: This new chopped-series with changing heading is for practical matters. They are kept simple. But need a lot of information when one considers to start the journey. This does not mean 'a lot of theory is needed before going for practice and vice versa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Dear Friend Htoo - In the message # 47703 you wrote : > Htoo: > > In cittanupassana or contemplations of consciousness there are 51 > > contemplations and they all contemplate on consciousness or > vinnaana- kkhandha. Tep: Could you please describe how you may "contemplate on consciousness"? The cittanupassana satipatthana is based on contemplation of mental states, not a direct contemplation of citta <"There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion."> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: a)Dear Tep. I was confused because you reply 'vedananupassana' and ask on 'cittanupassana'. I do not know why you did not reply to cittanupassana directly. b)'contemplate on consciousness'? Your question sounds like a trap and may end up with disaster when not satisfy. c) I described 48 mental states under the heading of cittanupassana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > 1. this is pleasant feeling. > > 2. this is unpleasant feeling. > > 3. this is neither pleasant not unpleasant feeling. > > 4. this is sensuous pleasant feeling.(pleasure thoughts on sensuous) > > 5. this is sensuous unpleasant feeling.(displeasure thoughts) ... ... .... .... > > There are originations of these feeling. This is another > > contemplation on feeling. And there are dissolutions of these > > feeling. This is another contemplation. The third contemplation is > > thinking on both origination and dissolution. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Could you please describe how one may do "contemplation" on feeling? You mentioned "thinking" above ("The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution".). Is contemplation equivalent to thinking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is why I suggested to check in my introduction of this reply. I wrote just simply and for mixed population of different levels of proficiency of English, Pali, Dhamma, and vipassana practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: You also mentioned "thoughts" along with contemplation. sensuous unpleasant feeling (displeasure thoughts)..> Is "contemplation on feeling" equivalent to contemplating thought? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Feeling never arise alone. Feeling never exists on its own. These always are other mental bodies like 'perception' 'formation' 'consciousness'. Right now you are reading this message. There is an activity of reading. In that activities there are many events. Leaving physical phenomena, there are many mental phenomena. Whatever it is your mind when it is reading is engaged in an activity. That acitvity is 'mind work'. 1. visual object -> eye-consciousness (this is also 'mind activity' 2. auditory object->ear-consciousness 3. aromatic object->nose-consciousness 4. gustatory object->tongue-consciousness 5. tangible object->body-consciousness 6. mind-object -> mind-consciousness Leaving the first 5 consciousness, all consciousness arise in your mind while reading. So what you have been doing is 'processing of thinking into different blocks of understanding when you are reading'. So in reading the activity is 'thinking'. This means 'you think'. What you think are your thoughts. They are being thought. So 'displeasure thoughts' that I used is 'about feeling when I was discussing on feeling'. Because feeling arise in each and every thought and each and every sense-consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: How can feeling = thought and yet contemplation = thinking? (Htoo: "The third contemplation is thinking on both origination and dissolution") I am confused. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Feeling is not equal to thought. I have explained why I used so in my post now in my reply to you. Check yourself on 'contemplation' and 'thinking'. Thinking is a bit general. If a consciousness is not eye- consciousness etc then it is a mind-consciousness. They may (may) be understood as 'thinking' or 'thoughts'. This word has a general sense. But 'contemplation' has a specific direction, determination, assessment, judgement and decision. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 47736 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 444 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) These 12 puggalas or 12 individuals are repeated frequently for the reason that they become used to. If these have already been known just leap them. So far the first 6 puggala have been explained. 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) This individual is who know dhamma as it is. That is he sees dhamma as naama or ruupa and he does not see any illusionary things like self, man, woman, human, deva etc etc. He is free of wrong view of self-identity and he is free of suspicion in dhamma and he is free of belief in wrong practice. In this individual the possible cittas that can arise are a)7 akusala cittas ( 4 ditthi citta and 1 vicikiccha citta excluded) b)7 ahetukla akusalavipaaka cittas c)8 ahetuka kusalavipaaka cittas d)2 ahetuka kiriya cittas(panca-dvara-avajjana and mano-dvara-avajjan) e)8 mahakusala cittas f)8 mahavipaaka cittas g)5 ruupakusala cittas ( 5 ruupa jhaanas ) h)4 aruupakusala cittas ( 4 aruupa jhaanas 0 i)1 sotapatti phala cittas(other lokuttara cittas do not arise in him) --- 50 cittas If other 7 lokuttara cittas are added there will be a total of 57 cittas. But arahatta phala citta does not arise in trainee or sikkha. So there will be 56 cittas. But as explained above other 6 lokuttara cittas do not arise in sotapatti phalatthaana puggala. If they arise they are no more sotapatti phalatthaana puggala but other puggala. 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala ( individual who becomes stream-enterer) This individual is where 'sotapatti magga citta arises'. Satopatti citta or stream-entering path-consciousness always arise at hadaya vatthu or heart base. There is no other citta in this individual. There are 5 aggregates in this individual. They are ruupakkhandha of hadaya vatthu, vedanakkhandha of feeling in stream-entering path consciousness, sannakkhandh of perception in sotapatti magga citta, sankharakkhandha (other cetasikas) in sotapatti magga citta, and vinnaakkhandha (sotapatti magga citta itself). In ultimate sense there is no man, woman, human, deva, being but these aggregates of naama and ruupa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, and any support will be valuable for all. 47737 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Public Apology to Jon htootintnaing ====================== Thank you for the kind words. Well, an apology is better than no apology, but better yet is to not create the need to apologize to begin with. And to do that requires more consistent effort at guarding the senses. So, my lesson to learn: Be more careful in practicing what I preach! With metta, Howard -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Howard, Thank you very much Professor. Your teaching method to me (a child) is effective. Where the exits are guarded and checked properly there is no reason to appear such matters. Another good thing is apology is better than no apology. I received many many 'no apologies'. But I was really happy that when non-apologisers were doing well in their understanding of Dhamma. With greatest respect, Htoo Naing 47738 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing Dear Tep, This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. Because this is a heated area. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Sarah {Attn. Kel, Howard, Nina, Larry, Htoo, Ven. Samahita and > others} - > > Sarah : > > > > Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana and > >the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his > >conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested > > in your comments too. > > ========= > > Tep: > > Thanks to Kelvin for his introduction of the article, 'The Jhanas and the > Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas', By Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi : > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > Thank you Sarah for asking me to comment. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi framed his study in order to answer the following 3 > questions: > > (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhana before > entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyama), the > irreversible path to stream-entry? > (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhanas to lay disciples who have > attained stream-entry? > (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhanas to the stream- enterer, > is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their attainment > becomes essential? > > 47739 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears." > > Hi Nina, > > For me, sati comes first, then body consciousness. Why remember a body > consciousness? > > Btw, I was trying to figure out what presence is, the sense of nowness. > Maybe it is just absence of discursive thinking (concept). > > Larry ------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry and Nina, It is interesting to figure out what is 'nowness'. Nowness is not passed one. And it is not what is not there. I see a tress. It is a green tree. It is green. Green is in a flag. The flag was used in an area. The area was developed. That area had been underdeveloped. Before that was the worst condition ever exist. 1. I see --> 2. shape --> 3. form --> 4. appearance --> 5. idea of tree --> 6. searching for a name --> 7. searching for a sounded name --> 8. tree --> 9. trying to characterise the tree --> 10. recognising the colour --> 11. searching for the name of colour --> 12. green 13. matching something in the past --> 14. green to green --> 15. discover the old memory --> 16. the green one --> 17. green flag 18. searching for the link --> ... ' ... ' ... --> There are many 'nowness'. Everything is nowness at now. Nowness is like the cursor running when we are typing on screen. Every letter we have typed become past and not now. What is now is the far- edge of the cursor. Likewise everything (ruupa, naama) is being typed in the samsara and at each moment all become past ones. This is anicca. With respect, Htoo Naing 47740 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:35am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 01 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 contemplations on body or 216 kaayanupassanaa. kaayaanupassana = kaaya + anupassanaa kaaya = body (this is conventional mass or physical part of beings) anupassanaa = anu + passanaa anu = 'along' 'up to' 'detail' passanaa = seeing, apperceiving kaayanupassana = seeing as things are happening in the body as they do a) 12 contemplations on breath b) 3 contemplations of implications of breath c) 12 contemplations on posture d) 3 contemplations of implication of posture e) 60 contemplations on detail movement f) 3 contemplations of implication of detail movement g) 96 contemplations on body parts h) 3 contemplations of implication of body parts i) 12 contemplations on body elements j) 3 contemplations of implication of body elements k) 27 contemplations on body foulness l) 27 contemplations of implication of body foulness --- 261 contemplations on body or 261 kaayaanupassanaa With Metta, Htoo Naing 47741 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote : > This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and > you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. > Because this is a heated area. > Not only that it is a hot "area", it also has open questions. So the debate probably may never end. Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and > you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. > Because this is a heated area. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah {Attn. Kel, Howard, Nina, Larry, Htoo, Ven. Samahita and > > others} - > > > > Sarah : > > > > > > Kel, thanks for reposting BB's conclusions to his piece 'Jhana > and the Lay Disciple', #47536. What are your comments on his > > >conclusions? Which do you agree with? Tep, I'd be interested > > > in your comments too. > > > ========= (snipped) > > Bhikkhu Bodhi framed his study in order to answer the following 3 > > questions: > > > > (1) Do the texts indicate that a worldling must attain jhana before > > entering upon the "fixed course of rightness" (sammatta-niyama), > the irreversible path to stream-entry? > > (2) Do the texts typically ascribe the jhanas to lay disciples who > have attained stream-entry? > > (3) If the texts do not normally attribute the jhanas to the stream- > enterer, is there any stage in the maturation of the path where their > attainment becomes essential? > > > > 47742 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/16/05 7:53:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: I'm not sure what you mean here. Questions about what is "real" as opposed to "unreal" don't seem that important to the Buddha's teaching, as far as I can tell. The Buddha didn't raise questions of what was real as opposed to what was not real- he actually discouraged such speculative thought. He taught that disciples must know the elements in order to be wise and to foser detachment. In my opinion, emphasizing what is 'real' as opposed to 'not real' will encourage attachment to what one deems as 'real'. The elements are the elements; they are not superior, inferior or equal to anything else. ======================= Althought logically equivalent [The notions of "reality" and "unreality" are mutually dependent from the perspective of logic], I agree with you that over-emphasis on the "real" leads to clinging instead of relinqishment. The emphasis, as I see it, should be on unreality. By 'unreality' I don't mean identically the same as nonexistence, but an utter nonexistence of some things (empty even of conventional existence), and a merely conventional existence for others. Some alleged things are even conventionally nonexistent (like the Easter Bunny). Inasmuch as most people are aware of this category, we needn't pay a lot of attention here. Now, as to the second category of unreality, mere conventionally existing "things", as I see the matter, are of two sorts: 1) the projections of full-blown mental constructions (such as tables, people, trees, star systems, and TV sitcoms), and 2) the so called paramattha dhammas, for which the role of mental construction is less obvious but still a genuine factor. Now some folks object to recognizing subcategory (1), but I think it is reasonable to do so on the basis of how much mental construction is involved in the experiencing of elements of this subcategory. It isn't just the core Khun-Sujin, anti-concept, DSG-type folks who hawk this, but also the Tibetan Buddhists to an enormous extent. Other folks, particularly many on DSG, take exception to thinking of paramattha dhammas as having only conventional reality, and thus would not accept subcategory (2). But I think this is a genuine subcategory. Hardness, warmth, sights, sounds, tastes, mind-moments, pleasant feelings, cravings, concentration, mindfulness, attention, distractedness etc, AS SEPARATE REALITIES, do not exist. Conventionally they exist as separate entities, but not actually. They are accorded separate existence only on the basis of mental constructions (sankharic operations). In reality, they are interrelated facets of an inseparable experiential stream, facets either dependently co-occuring, or consecutively occurring without gap, or arising subsequently in conditioned dependence, but not existing as separate entities at all. They *seem* to be separate entities, and that seeming is a basic element of our ignorance. The analysis of wholes into parts such as in the chariot example and in khandhic analysis and ayatana analysis is a skillful means to enable one to overcome belief in entities in subcategory (1). But there lies a danger in that approach: the danger in according separate reality to "atomic" constitents that result from such analysis. Techniques to counter such error are to be found in the synthetic, relational approach of the Patthana, and more essentially in my opinion, in the use of paticcasamupada as a contemplative scheme. To sum up, I see emptiness (lack of separate existence or lack of ultimate reality) as the cognitive partner to emotional relinquishment, and I believe that it is insight into the former along with cultivation of the latter that leads to awakening. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47743 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 202 - 205. buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG & SD members - This week we study paragraphs 202 - 205. Please recall that in the "exercise of mindfulness and awareness" of the first vatthu (i.e. "long in-breaths and out-breaths"), feelings, perception and applied-thoughts(vitakka) arise, are established (or "appear"), and are recognized as they subside. # Para 202 continues with applied-thoughts, and para 203 touches on the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. # Para 204 - 216 explain the terms in para 203. # Para 217 starts the second vatthu, i.e. short in-breaths & out-breaths. The same format in the first vatthu is used throughout, i.e. analysis of the object of contemplation, the foundation of mindfulness, exercise of mindfulness and full awareness, and combining the faculties, etc. 202. How are applied-thoughts recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside? How is the arising of applied-thoughts recognized? The arising of applied-thoughts(vitakka) is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus: With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of applied- thoughts ...With the arising of craving ...With the arising of action (kamma) ...With the arising of perception ... [and so on as in para 200, substituting 'perception' for 'contact' up to the end] ... This is how applied-thoughts are recognized as they arise, recognized as they appear, recognized as they subside. [Combining the Faculties, etc. ] 203. When he understands unificationof cognizance and non- distraction through long in-breaths and out-breaths, he combines (samodhaaneti) the faculties(indriya), understands their domain (gocara), and penetrates their meaning(attha) of sameness(sama); he combines the powers(bala) ...; he combines the enlightenment factors (bojjhanga) ...; he combines the path(magga) ...; he combines [other] ideas(dhamma), understands their domain, and penetrates their meaning of sameness. 204. He 'combines the faculties': how does he combine the faculties? He combines the faith faculty(saddha indriya) through its meaning of resolution(adhimokkha), he combines the energy faculty(viriya indriya) through its meaning of exertion(vayamati), he combines the mindfulness faculty(sati indriya) through its meaning of establishment (foundation, upatthana), he combines the concentration faculty (samadhi indriya) through its meaning of non-distraction(avikkhepa), he combines the understanding faculty(panna indriya) through its meaning of seeing(dassana). This person combines these faculties on this object. Hence, he 'combines the faculties' is said. 205. He 'understands their domain': his supporting object is his domain (gocara); his domain is his supporting object(aarammana). He understands, thus he is a person; the act-of-understanding is understanding. [Read 'aarammanam Pajaanaati puggalo. Pajaananaa pannaa'.] 'Sameness' : the appearance of the supporting-object(aarammana) is sameness(sama), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness, the cleansing of cognizance is sameness. 'Meaning' : meaning(attha) as blameless, meaning as without defilement, meaning as cleansing, ultimate meaning. 'Penetrates': he penetrates the appearance(establishment) of the supporting object(aarammana), he penetrates the meaning of non- distraction of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance, he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance. Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said. Tep's Notes: The Pali 'sama' means calmness, tranquillity, mental quiet (according to the PTS). The Thai version of 'Sameness' reads: the aarammana appears as calmness, non-distracted citta is calmness, cleansed and bright citta is calmness. The closest meanings for the Pali 'attha' are profit, attainment, advantage, gain (see PTS). So it makes more sense by the Thai version of 'Meaning', which reads: dhammas without drawbacks are gain, dhammas without defilement are gain, cleansing dhammas are attainment, adhidhammas are attainment. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested members - > > This week we study 2 paragraphs, 200 - 201. Please recall the last > paragraph (#199) on the exercise of mindfulness and full awareness > (sampajanna). It indicates that through the long in- and out-breaths, the > bhikkhu "understands" unification and non-distraction of the mind and > recognizes the arising and passing-away characteristics of the three > namas: vedana, sanna, and vitakka. > 47744 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:44pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------------------ Ph: > It's our own accumulations that are important. We will know or won't know why meditating involves or would involve wrong view. Panna will know. If you don't mind, I'd like to drop the topic there. ----------------- OK, I won't talk about formal meditation any more - at least not to you: only to anyone who wants to. Actually, I think you might have asked me once before to drop the topic and I forgot - sorry about that. :-) I don't have any qualms about giving you the last word because I basically agree with what you say. One niggling exception is in the following: -------- Ph: > "We know that in the suttas there are monks who meditate with right understanding and benefit from it." -------- It worries me that you still might not have caught on. There is a difference between formal meditation and the meditation described in the texts. Or am I missing something? Sorry, don't answer that! The subject is closed. :-) Ken H 47745 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:21am Subject: Re: Patient is Tolerance ... !!!,Resonation: I can see my wall vibrate ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > Patient Tolerance is the Fifth Mental Perfection: > > The characteristic of patience is acceptance, it's function is to > endure, and it's manifestation is non-opposing tolerance! > The cause of patience is understanding how things really are.. colette: this is EXACTLY the way: in the struggle for survival, competition, war, etc, we encounter others unknown to ourselves yet they, the others, all have similar characteristics, postures, which they use to their operation of survival. In the case of a black art called the Martial Art, they would then be lunging forward, striking, and the reality is their imballance or auwkward position thus manifesting their vulnerability of retaliation or return of the negative force they used, issued, to lash outward. ------------------ > The effect of patience is calm tranquillity despite provocation.. > Patience of the Will produce forgiving forbearance! colette: I understand this as being to mean that the patience of the Will manifests the knowledge of the situation, scenerio, position, of issueing the fatal blow or not and why it is wrong to strike in such manner at most times. ------------------------ > Patience of the Intellect produce faithful confidence! > Internal Tolerance of states within oneself is patient endurance. colette: internal tolerance to be calm, established and resolute in the equilibrium. Without obligation to the negative actions, kamma, issued to oneself. ----------------------- <....>, at least Sarah wrote the other posts in succession for me to observe at a later date. toodles, colette > External Tolerance of other beings is forbearance & forgiveness. > > He who patiently protects himself, protects also others. > He who patiently protects others, protects also himself. > > Not from speaking much is one called clever. > The patient one, free from anger, free from fear, > only such one is rightly called clever. > Dhammapada 258 > > Patient tolerance is the highest praxis... > Nibbana is the supreme state!!! > So say all the Buddhas. > Dhammapada 184 > > The innocent one, who has done nothing wrong, > who patiently endures abuse, flogging & even > imprisonment, such one, armed with endurance, > the great force of tolerance, such one, > I call a Holy One. > Dhammapada 399 > > One should follow those who are determined, > tolerant, enduring, intelligent, wise, diligent, > clever, good-willed and Noble. One shall stick to > them as the moon remains in it's regular orbit. > Dhammapada 208 > > Friends, even if bandits were to cut you up, savagely, limb by limb, > with a two-handled saw, you should not get angry, but do my bidding: > Remain pervading them & all others with a friendly awareness imbued > with an all-embracing good will, kind, rich, expansive, & immeasurable! > Free from hostility, free from any ill will. Always remembering this very > Simile of the Saw is indeed how you should train yourselves. > Majjhima Nikaya 21 > > Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which any > irritation can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu, when it arises in him. > What are the five? > 1: Friendliness can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. > 2: Understanding can be maintained towards an irritating person or state.. > 3: On-looking equanimity can be maintained towards an irritating person or > state.. 4: The forgetting and ignoring of an irritating person or state can be > practiced.. 5: Ownership of Kamma in an irritating person can be reflected > upon thus: This good person is owner of his actions, inherit the result his > actions, is born of his actions & only he is responsible for his actions be > they good or bad. This too is how annoyance with the irksome can be > instantly removed. These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by > which irritation can be entirely removed in a friend just when it arises... > Anguttara Nikaya V 161 > > Rahula, develop a mind like earth, then contacts of arisen like and dislike > do not obsess your mind! Rahula, on the earth is dumped both pure & impure, > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, but the earth does not disgust any of those... > Even & exactly so make your mind like earth! Rahula, develop a mind like water, > then contacts of arisen pleasure and pain do not seize your mind. Rahula with > water both the pure and the impure are cleaned... Washed away with water are > excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and blood, yet water does not despise any of that! > Even so craft the mind like water. Rahula, develop a mind like fire, then contacts > of arisen attraction & aversion do not consume nor hang on your mind! Rahula, > fire burns both the pure and the impure, burns excreta, urine, saliva, pus, and > blood yet fire does not loathe any of that.. In the same manner refine the mind > like fire! Rahula, develop a mind similar to space, then contacts of arisen delight > and frustration do not take hold of nor remain in your mind. Rahula, space does > not settle anywhere! Similarly make the mind unsettled & unestablished like open > space. When you expand a mind like space, contacts of delight & frustration will > neither dominate nor obsess your mind. > Majjhima Nikaya 62 <...> 47746 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:44am Subject: too many secrets ksheri3 Group, I know I have something in my stack of buddhist material but I was wondering if there is somewhere I can go to find a listing of buddhist traditions: theravadan: such and such a school such and such a school Mayhayana: such and such a school such and such a school Vajranaya such and such a school etc. I'll look in my stacks for something similar to what I request that I can give a better understanding of what I'm looking for, if I'm not understandable here/now. toodles, colette 47747 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:30pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 249 - Attachment/lobha (b) sarahprocter... [repost - draft sent out in error yesterday:/] ........ Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment(lobha) contd] The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 162) gives the following definition of lobha: * "… greed has the characteristic of grasping an object like “monkey lime”. Its function is sticking, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, like the dye of lamp-black. Its proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean." * The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) gives a similar definition(1). Greed has the characteristic of grasping like monkey lime. Monkey lime was used by hunters in order to catch monkeys. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book III, Chapter I, §7, The monkey) that a hunter sets a trap of lime for monkeys. Monkeys who are free from “folly and greed” do not get trapped. We read: * "… But a greedy, foolish monkey comes up to the pitch and handles it with one paw, and his paw sticks fast in it. Then, thinking: I’ll free my paw, he seizes it with the other paw, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws he seizes them with one foot, and that too sticks fast. To free both paws and the one foot, he lays hold of them with the other foot, but that too sticks fast. To free both paws and both feet he lays hold of them with his muzzle: but that too sticks fast. So that monkey thus trapped in five ways lies down and howls, thus fallen on misfortune…" * In this way the hunter can catch him and roast him over the fire. The Buddha explained to the monks that the monk who is not mindful gets trapped by the “five sensual elements”: visible object, sound, scent, savour and tangible object. When one is taken in by these objects, “Måra gets access”(2). Clinging is dangerous, it leads to one’s own destruction. Are we at this moment taken in by one of the “five sensual elements”? Then we are in fact “trapped”. At the moment of lobha we enjoy the object of clinging and we do not see that lobha makes us enslaved, we do not see the danger of lobha. Therefore it is said that the proximate cause of lobha is seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Growing into a river of craving, lobha takes us to the “states of loss”. Lobha can motivate unwholesome deeds which are capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. So long as lobha has not been eradicated we are subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. *** 1) See also Dhammasangaùi §389. 2) Måra is that which is evil, akusala, and in a wider sense: everything which is bound up with dukkha. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47748 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: too many secrets christine_fo... Hello Collette, You may find a beginning place to seek some of the information you are looking for in these links: http://buddhism.about.com/cs/history/a/Schools.htm http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha125.htm metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > Group, > > I know I have something in my stack of buddhist material but I was > wondering if there is somewhere I can go to find a listing of > buddhist traditions: 47749 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: Sutta name egberdina Hi Andrew, Thank you for your post. Clearly, you are keenly aware of the difficulties surrounding the translation issue. I agree with all the points you make, and your closing point "language translation is a difficulty we can't escape but we should always be aware of it." is very sond advice. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman == > I don't have time to become a Pali translator, so I have to rely on > the scholarship of others. I think I made the point once before (and > I think it was to you, actually) that, to be able to judge the merit > of others' scholarship, one really needs to be a scholar oneself. So > there's the rub - how to know which is the better scholarship when > one has little knowledge in the field of expertise. Just as well > that knowledge and wisdom are not one and the same thing!! > > I think it is a good idea to have access to the original Pali and > various translations of it. A good reminder that the translation > issue is a factor to be considered. Of course, here at DSG, some > people espouse using Pali terms instead of English translations but > this annoys others who see it as arrogant etc. > > Re your suggestion that words in a sutta should be translated to fit > that sutta without regard to how the word is used in other suttas is > problematic. The translator must surely then explain why the same > word is being translated differently in different parts of the > suttanta. If there is a valid explanation, bring it on ... > > Otherwise we end up with a Kant-style dog's breakfast [the > philosopher Kant was a prolific writer who changed the > meanings/definitions of terms he used throughout his career, such > that one really needs to date the Kant piece one is reading to know > precisely what he is on about - it could mean something very > different if it came from a different part of his career.] > > Also, I'm sure you are familiar with Biblical translation controversy > which spans several languages. At least we are only concerned with > Pali here! > > In summary, language translation is a difficulty we can't escape but > we should always be aware of it. Thanks for raising it. > > Best wishes > Andrew T 47750 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi Agrios, > There is great work by Nobel laureate Gerald Edelman called NGS theory, if you are interested. > Thanks so much for this. I hadn't heard of Edelman or NGS before. And now you know what I did for the rest of the day, I gorged myself on NGS. Fascinating!!! People say they like Abhidhamma because it helps to see anatta, and I accept that. I cannot read anything on a current understanding of how the brain works without being overwhelmed by anatta. The following link may be interesting for some, it is quite long, and goes into meditation as well. Sorry if it has been posted before. http://www.ellerman.org/BuddhismandtheBrain.htm Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 47751 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: Attachment - (attention to Phil) philofillet Hi Ken > OK, I won't talk about formal meditation any more - at least not to > you: only to anyone who wants to. Actually, I think you might have > asked me once before to drop the topic and I forgot - sorry about > that. :-) Ph: Actually, I was the one who brought it up, so thanks for your understanding. > > It worries me that you still might not have caught on. There is a > difference between formal meditation and the meditation described in > the texts. Or am I missing something? Sorry, don't answer that! My lips are sealed... :) >The > subject is closed. :-) Hey, your smiley face has a nose. Another example of right understanding at work, arising due to conditions. If we *try* to have a highly-developed smiley face, it won't happen. Panna has to work it's way... Metta, Phil 47752 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. lbidd2 Htoo: "Everything is nowness at now." Hi Htoo, Yes, whatever is now is all there is, but we don't _know_ that unless there is perception without attachment to views (ditthi). Sati conditions the knowing (vinnana) of what arises now without concept. Larry 47753 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and Htoo- What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? Karuna, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "Everything is nowness at now." > > Hi Htoo, > > Yes, whatever is now is all there is, but we don't _know_ that unless > there is perception without attachment to views (ditthi). Sati > conditions the knowing (vinnana) of what arises now without concept. > > Larry 47754 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Larry and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/16/05 8:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Larry and Htoo- What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? ------------------------------------------ Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. ------------------------------------------ Karuna, Tep ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47755 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina and Larry - > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > Nina. What conditions understanding that comes along with the right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 14-07-2005 01:56 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > (snipped) > L: If so, then mindfulness of breath rupas is an intentional > > body consciousness generated by mindfulness. > Assuming that is correct, what is the difference between a desirous intention and a mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? > ------- > N: desirous intention: someone may think that he has to do something in order to have sati. Going here, going there, doing this, doing that, we can find out that this is mostly motivated by lobha. No wonder, we are in the cycle because of ignorance and craving. > A person may be so taken in by lobha, that he does not like to hear about his deepest motives. Moreover, lobha can be very subtle. > You say: mindfulness intention to be conscious of an object? > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > Nina. 47756 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati lbidd2 Tep: "What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept?" Hi Tep, A good book will do it. Larry 47757 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (and Larry and Htoo) - The question was: What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? And your answer is: Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. Thank you very much, Howard, for the reply. Let me say that I have been motivated by Nina's message # 47655. Nina: > When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and > there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. Tep: According to Breathing Treatise para 174, mindfulness is well established on the same basis that makes cognizance(citta) steadied and vice versa. This is called 'made the ground', which is defined as the development(bhavana) "in the sense of single function(rasa) of the faculties" (indriya). " 'Made the ground'(vatthukata): his mindfulness is well established (founded) on whatever basis his cognizance(citta) is well steadied on. His cognizance is well steadied on whatever ground his mindfulness is well established (founded) on. Hence 'made the ground' was said." [Breathing Treatise, para 174] Tep: Therefore, it is clear to me that all the conditions that steady the mind, making it free from hindrances, non-distracted and calm, also help in developing mindfulness. Since well-balanced ('single function') indriyas (saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) steady the citta, they help develop mindfulness. Thus, sati is not developed only by panna. This is strictly my interpretation of the Breathing Treatise. Best wishes, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Larry and Htoo) - > > In a message dated 7/16/05 8:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi Larry and Htoo- > > What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now > without concept? > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, > perserverence, and calm. > With metta, > Howard > 47758 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Sharing Joy antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Rob K, Howard, Christine and all, Sister Ayya Khema wrote: "Joy with others is also good kamma-making. I was in a little village once where there was a special bell attached to the temple. Whenever anyone in that village had some good fortune, they would go and ring that bell. If the harvest was brought in, or the daughter got married, if someone came back from the hospital, or a good business deal had been arranged, if the roof had been reshingled, anything at all that gave them joy. When the bell was rung everybody would come out, look in the direction of the person who was ringing the bell and say, 'Well done. Well done.' The one who was ringing the bell was making good kamma by making it possible for the others to share his joy. The others were making good kamma by sharing another's joy." http://www.serve.com/cmtan/buddhism/Treasure/sharingjoy.html Taken from "Being Nobody Going Nowhere" by Sister Ayya Khema. This must have been a village where the rare quality of mudita was abundant. And there was honesty and trust that the bell-ringing wasn't a false alarm! ;) Here in Australia my Dad remembers the church bells ringing when World War II ended. He was six years old and they sent him home from school May there be world peace in heart and mind with either noble silence or words devoted to truth, promoting friendships, going to the heart and worth treasuring. May there be compassionate bodily actions like generosity, honesty, and clicking the send button to send emails to kalyana mittas ;) May everyone here and your loved ones be happy and safe. May you have tranquil minds. With metta / Antony. 47759 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:15pm Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? rjkjp1 Dear Herman, Evan and Htoo, I don't know anything about cochlear implants and how effective they are but can add something about passada. The physical base for hearing or seeing depends on teh ear or eye. In the case of teh eye that we can look at it it is a roundish jelly like object with a dark center. This is is not the rupa that is the actual sense base. However, the sense base depends on this to arise. The sense base is spread over the iris, but is invisble and undetectable by science- it arises due to kamma. As I said, though, without the gross eye as a supporting condition this subtle rupa cannot arise. Scientists may be able to manufacture a gross eye that could be support for the kamma conditioned rupa to arise- and then some blind people would be able to see. But if there are no conditions for kamma to produce the subtle eyesense then they would stay blind. The same with ear sense. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I think we agreed that without ear, or cochlear implant for a deaf > person, there is no hearing. You close of this post by saying that ear > and cochlear implant are concept. The conclusion beckons that concepts > give rise to paramattha dhammas. I know you don't believe that. > > I do not mean to tie you up in knots. Is it possible that there are > problems with the theory ? > > The purpose of a theory is to explain the workings of the observed, > causality if you like. Theory has its place, because causality is not > observable. The existence of cochlear implants is testimony to the > fact that the causality that underlies the transducing of waves in a > medium like or water into electrical pulses has been understood > sufficiently well to be able to give at least a poor reproduction of > hearing to those who lack it. > > It is not improbable that someone, somewhere is going to see the light > on hearing the dhamma with the help of a cochlear implant, is it? > > I do not need to say anymore on this, but if you want to continue, I > will be more than happy to do so. > > Thanks for all your time and effort > > Kind Regards > > Herman > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Herman, > > Now I see that you did not tie me up. I want to continue the current > discussion. But I do not have much time nowadays. Pannatti finally > points out what paramattha dhamma are. > > I would not say 'cochlea implant, ear' etc are not real. But I would > say they are not paramattha dhamma. > > There are my posts on dream and arahats. I wrote about the current in > the nerves and perception in relation to dream. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47760 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sharing Joy upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - In a message dated 7/16/05 11:04:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@... writes: May there be world peace in heart and mind with either noble silence or words devoted to truth, promoting friendships, going to the heart and worth treasuring. May there be compassionate bodily actions like generosity, honesty, and clicking the send button to send emails to kalyana mittas ;) May everyone here and your loved ones be happy and safe. May you have tranquil minds. ======================== Thank you, Antony! And may you be happy and well. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47761 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Against the ways of the world - what did the Buddha mean? egberdina Hi Jon, > > Egbert wrote: > > >Firstly something about essence. The problem is as follows. How things > >appear, and how they are, can be quite a few worlds apart, as you well > >know. > > > >IMHO, human perceptual processes rely on the computation of > >differences. So what is presented to consciousness as positive objects > >with seemingly inherent characteristics, are, in fact, the > >representations of the ever-changing difference between states of > >non-conscious sensing. Now, if mental objects exist only as the > >difference between states that no longer apply, how knowable is their > >self-nature (essence)? > > > >Seeing as there is no knowable essence (self-nature) in anything, > >because things come into being only as differences, its potential > >relation to anatta is a moot point :-) > > > > The above is an interesting line of thinking, but is it not possible > that the moments of 'computation of differences' lie some distance up > the cognitive tree (to use your own metaphor), and that preceding those > moments there are moments of bare experience of sense-objects? Your > comments seem to assume this cannot be so, but you do not give any basis > for that assumption. > Yes, it is entirely possible that there are experiences of sense-objects more towards the base of the cognitive tree, so to speak. This raises the possibility of a question. When can it be said that an experience is "bare experience" rather than "barer experience"? Kind Regards Herman 47762 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 445 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 12 individuals or 12 puggala. They are 1. arahatta phalatthaana puggala (individual who has eradicated all defilements) 2. arahatta maggatthaana puggala (individual who eradicates all defilements) 3. anaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become non-returner) 4. anaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes non-returner) 5. sakadaagaami phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become once-returner) 6. sakadaagaami maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes once-returner) 7. sotapatti phalatthaana puggala (individual who has become stream-enterer) 8. sotapatti maggatthaana puggala (individual who becomes stream-enterer) 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many defilements) 10.dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual who has many defilements) 11.sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) 12.duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destined rootless individual who has many defilements) The first 8 individuals are ariya puggalas or pure saints. 9. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual who has many kilesa) This individual is born with a patisandhi citta that has three roots of 1. alobha or non-attachment, 2. adosa or non-aversion, and 3. amoha or non-ignorance or panna. When there is no outside object to attend there arise bhavanga citta or life continung consciousness in them and when they die the citta that arises as the last moment consciousness or cuti citta is also tihetuka citta. Puthujana = puthu + janaanam, puthu means 'many' and janaanam means 'cause to arise'. Here it means many kilesa. Because in ariyas there are just sparse kilesas and there is no kilesa in arahats. In comparison with these 8 ariyas, that have been explained in the previous posts puthujana puggala have many many kilesas or defilements. This is true. Because in each day there are just sparse kusala and most cittas are akusala javana cittas. When one see or hear or smell or taste or touch mostly he or she will like or dislike the object instead of seeing the realities as realities. This likeness and dislikeness create many many kilesas or defilements. So they are called puthujana puggalas or 'individual where kilesas arise'. But unlike other puthujana puggala this individual of tihetuka has the potential that help to develop jhaana, magga, and phala nana. They are endowed with these potential when they were born. But this is not certainty unless they follow the right path and follow the true teachings of The Buddha, who discovered all Dhamma that ever exist. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47763 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo - You wrote : >This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. Because this is a heated area. Not only that it is a hot "area", it also has open questions. So the debate probably may never end. Kind regards, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, This is because debators are all non-ariyas and are all non- jhanalaabhii. As long as they have not attained jhaana and magga there will still be debates. Even if there is a Buddha they will still be debating if they have not attained jhaana and magga. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47764 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 0:45am Subject: The Divine Eye ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Divine Eye of an Awakened One (DibbaCakkhu): At Savatthi, the Blessed Buddha said this: Bhikkhus, imagine there were two houses and a man with good eyes was standing there between them, and he saw people going in and coming out and passing back and forth between them. Exactly so, do I with the purified divine eye surpassing the human, see beings passing away and reappearing, high or low, fine or ugly, fortunate and unfortunate! Therefore do I understand how beings pass on according to their actions thus: These worthy beings, who were well-behaved in body, speech, and mind, not revilers of Noble Ones, right in their views, acting according to these right views, at the breakup of the body, after death, have reappeared in a blissful and pleasurable destination, even in one of the heavenly worlds... Or they have reappeared here again among good human beings... But these worthy beings, who were ill-behaved in body, speech, and mind, revilers of Noble Ones, wrong in their views, acting according to these wrong views, at the breakup of the body, right after death, have reemerged in the realm of ghosts or among animals or in a state of deprivation, or lost in a painful destination, even in the many hells... The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. III 178-9 MN 130 Devaduta Sutta: The Divine Messengers... http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html ________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47765 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: too many secrets htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Collette, > > You may find a beginning place to seek some of the information you are > looking for in these links: > > http://buddhism.about.com/cs/history/a/Schools.htm > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha125.htm > > metta, > Chris -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, Thanks for your links. You always have a good collections of useful links. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ''Between the 1st Century B.C. to the 1st Century A.D., the two terms Mahayana and Hinayana appeared in the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra or the Sutra of the Lotus of the Good Law. About the 2nd Century A.D. Mahayana became clearly defined. Nagarjuna developed the Mahayana philosophy of Sunyata and proved that everything is Void in a small text called Madhyamika-karika. About the 4th Century, there were Asanga and Vasubandhu who wrote enormous amount of works on Mahayana. After the 1st Century AD., the Mahayanists took a definite stand and only then the terms of Mahayana and Hinayana were introduced. We must not confuse Hinayana with Theravada because the terms are not synonymous. Theravada Buddhism went to Sri Lanka during the 3rd Century B.C. when there was no Mahayana at all. Hinayana sects developed in India and had an existence independent from the form of Buddhism existing in Sri Lanka. Today there is no Hinayana sect in existence anywhere in the world. Therefore, in 1950 the World Fellowship of Buddhists inaugurated in Colombo unanimously decided that the term Hinayana should be dropped when referring to Buddhism existing today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, etc. This is the brief history of Theravada, Mahayana and Hinayana.'' 47766 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "Everything is nowness at now." > > Hi Htoo, > > Yes, whatever is now is all there is, but we don't _know_ that unless > there is perception without attachment to views (ditthi). Sati > conditions the knowing (vinnana) of what arises now without concept. > > Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, Nowness is progressing all the time like the cursor while we are typing. The cursor is right at the present. But people are deluded that 'there are they and they are thinking and typing. When they think in that way there will be past, present and future and many other ideas out of time relationship. Again this is because of constructions and this construction has a background of wrong view. As long as there is ditthi or wrong view one will never see 'REALITIES'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47767 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati htootintnaing Hi Larry and Htoo- What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept? Karuna, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, There are as a summary 24 conditions that are serving the relations among dhammas. Sarah, Nina, and Larry will all be able to tell you what conditions 'your sati' that conditions knowing of what arises now without concept. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in poor conditions. 47768 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati htootintnaing Hi, Tep (and Larry and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/16/05 8:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@y... writes: Hi Larry and Htoo- > What conditions that sati that conditions knowing of what arises now > without concept? ------------------------------------------ Howard: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. ------------------------------------------ Htoo: Dear Howard, I like your answer. 'Among other things' is what I like most. But I think this does not necessarily means 'intention' 'perserverence' 'calm' are major things and others are minor things. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47769 From: nina Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 172 and Tiika. Envy. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 172. Envy. Intro: Envy, issaa, does not arise with each akusala citta rooted in aversion, dosa, but when it arises it accompanies dosa-muulacitta. It is one of the inconstants (aniyata) that can accompany dosa-muulacitta. Thus, it is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Envy is conditioned by the dosa, aversion, it accompanies; it is dissatisfied with others¹ prosperity. As we read about dosa: The cetasika dosa also causes the accompanying dhammas to be corrupted or to have aversion. This is expressed by the term: by means of it (tena). All the accompanying dhammas and thus also envy are affected by dosa. ***** Text Vis.: (xlvi) Envying is 'envy'. It has the characteristic of being jealous of other's success. ------- N: The Tiika states that not enduring the prosperity of others is the cause of jealousy. -------- Text Vis.: Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. ----- N: The Tiika emphasizes that there is just in that case, namely, in the case of the prosperity of others, dissatisfaction. It explains as to the words Œits function is dissatisfaction¹, that this is not merely the absence of satisfaction, but that its function is being opposed to satisfaction. ------ Text Vis.: It is manifested as averseness from that. ------ N: Averseness is the translation from the Pali vimukhabhaava, the nature of turning away. It dislikes the object, the prosperity of others. Thus, we see that it can only arise with citta rooted in aversion. ---------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is another's success. It should be regarded as a fetter. ------- The fetters or sa.myojanas fetter us to the cycle of birth and death. Envy is classified among these fetters. We read in the Dhammasanga.ni (§ 1121) : The Expositor (II, p. 479) explains that envy has the characteristic of: < not enduring, or of grumbling at the prosperity of others, saying concerning others¹ gains, etc. ŒWhat is the use to these people of all this?¹ > It explains that in the case of monks, the objects of envy are the requisites that are received, or the honour and respect given to them. But envy also pertains to householders who receive a splendid vehicle or gem. We read that someone else thinks,< ŒWhen will he decline from this prosperity and walk about a pauper?¹ and if for a certain reason the other does decline from that prosperity he is pleased.> The object of jealousy can also be someone else¹s knowledge. We read: < A certain recluse also being envious at seeing the acquirement of gain, etc., arising from general knowledge, scriptural scholarship, etc., thinks, ŒWhen will this man decline in these acquirements?¹ etc., and when he sees him, for some reason, decline, then he is glad.> Envy is conditioned by the cetasikas that accompany the dosa-muulacitta it arises together with. Thus, it is also conditioned by ignorance, moha. Moha darkens the true nature of dhammas. When there is ignorance of kamma and vipaaka one fails to see that the pleasant Œworldly conditions¹ of gain, praise, honour and bodily wellbeing are the results of kusala kamma, there is an opportunity for jealousy. One does not see that it is pointless to have aversion and be jealous on account of what are merely conditioned dhammas. Muditaa, sympathetic joy, is the opposite of envy. When one rejoices at someone else¹s prosperity there is no opportunity for jealousy. Seeing the benefit of sympathetic joy which is a way of kusala will be a condition for its arising. The sotaapanna has eradicated jealousy, because through insight he realizes that all experiences are only conditioned dhammas that do not last and are non-self. He has direct understanding of kamma and its result and he realizes that when someone receives pleasant sense objects it is the result of kamma. ****** Nina. 47770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, This is very good to reflect on. I like to highlight the two methods: analytical and synthetical or relational. Not so much concept versus reality, since there were so many debates, if you know what I mean. op 16-07-2005 17:07 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Hardness, warmth, > sights, sounds, tastes, mind-moments, pleasant feelings, cravings, > concentration, mindfulness, attention, distractedness etc, AS SEPARATE > REALITIES, do not > exist. Conventionally they exist as separate entities, but not actually. They > are accorded separate existence only on the basis of mental constructions > (sankharic operations). In reality, they are interrelated facets of an > inseparable experiential stream, facets either dependently co-occuring, or > consecutively > occurring without gap, or arising subsequently in conditioned dependence, but > not existing as separate entities at all. ------- N: I understand what you mean. It is true, there are no separate dhammas, dhammas in isolation. ------ H: ... The analysis of wholes into parts ... But there lies a danger in that approach: the danger in > according separate reality to "atomic" constitents that result from such > analysis. > Techniques to counter such error are to be found in the synthetic, relational > approach of the Patthana, and more essentially in my opinion, in the use of > paticcasamupada as a contemplative scheme. > To sum up, I see emptiness (lack of separate existence or lack of > ultimate reality) as the cognitive partner to emotional relinquishment, and I > believe > that it is insight into the former along with cultivation of the latter that > leads to awakening. ------- N: You may find Abhidhamma Studies by ven. Nyanaponika, II the Twofold Method interesting. He explains that the two methods are necessary. It is rejected by the Expositor that any dhamma arises singly. (p. 22 of Abh Studies). And p. 23: he calls internal relations those within a citta (the cetasikas which condiiton the citta) and external relation the connections between several of such units. The Patthana is mainly concerned with these so called external relations. We read in Abh Studies: He applies this to the Satipatthana sutta, differentiating: contemplation of internal phenomena, those in others and the combination, Then he shows the meaning of: dhammas as arising, as passing away and the combination of both. Now about the stages of insight: <1 Analysis of the corporeal (ruupa) | | analysis 2:Analysis of the mental (naama) | 3 Contemplation of both (naama-ruupa) | | Synthesis 4 both viewed as conditioned (paticcasamuppaado) | 5 Application of the three characteristics to mind-and-body-cum-conditions= combination of analysis and synthesis.> end quote. **** My remarks: this fits with the stages of insight. We have to learn first nama as nama and rupa as rupa, and there can be awareness of only one characteristic at a time. It is impossible to be aware of seeing and visible object at the same time. The second stage is knowing dhammas as conditioned. This is not intellectual understanding of conditions, but by direct understanding, by insight. We cannot imagine yet how this can be realized without thinking, but paññaa is able to achieve this. Since I am only a beginner, I pay attention to understanding one nama or rupa as it appears. This is the analytical method, but without this, there will be a great deal of confusion about the Patthana and the D.O. We have to understand which dhamma exactly conditions which dhamma, and by what type of relation: simultaneous or not simultaneous. When we study all this we have to keep in mind that pariyatti is not patipatti, although correct pariyatti is a foundation for patipatti. Nina. 47771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attention James, difference between nama and rupa. nilovg Hi James, op 16-07-2005 13:52 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: N:< All that is real is included in these eighteen elements.> I'm not sure what you mean here. Questions about what is > "real" as opposed to "unreal" don't seem that important to the > Buddha's teaching, as far as I can tell. The Buddha didn't raise > questions of what was real as opposed to what was not real- he > actually discouraged such speculative thought. He taught that > disciples must know the elements in order to be wise and to foser > detachment. In my opinion, emphasizing what is 'real' as opposed to > 'not real' will encourage attachment to what one deems as 'real'. The > elements are the elements; they are not superior, inferior or equal to > anything else. ------- N: I understand what you mean. I wanted to emphasize: dhamma or dhaatu is reality, it is the truth, it can be directly experienced. It bears its own characteristic. Such as visible object or seeing, they each have their own characteristics that can be directly experienced. Seeing is different from hearing which has another characteristic. ------ > Nina: In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the > relevant sense-cognitions... > James: You seem to be making a logical connection here that I just > don't read in this sutta. This is the connection you make, as I see > it: Confusing nama and rupa ---> Taking dhammas together as a whole > ---> Taking dhammas as a concept ---> Not being able to attain > enlightenment. ------- N: I was just emphasizing that people in the Buddha's time could directly realize that seeing arises in dependence on visible object and eyesense. That all his teachings pertain to daily life and that they can be verified now. They are all different elements and as I see it, these should not be confused. Now as to Howard's post, I shall go into his post about two methods of teaching, the analytical and the relational method of teaching. ------ > Nina: When you are back I would like to read more suttas with you. > Starting another thread? > James:.. I will be in a temporary flat > for a while and my Nikaya collection is packed away, except DN which I > am currently reading. Things may be very hectic for me at my new > school at the beginning. We will play it by ear. But please, do > present any suttas in the meantime that you would like to discuss. ----- N: Staying in Cairo? But I have my hands full. In the Pali list the whole of the Gradual Sayings is studied in a five year project. We are right at the beginning. Struggling over the translation of the Pali word nimitta. Nina. 47772 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:05am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Herman, Evan and Htoo, > > I don't know anything about cochlear implants and how effective they > are but can add something about passada. > The physical base for hearing or seeing depends on teh ear or eye. > In the case of teh eye that we can look at it it is a roundish jelly > like object with a dark center. This is is not the rupa that is the > actual sense base. However, the sense base depends on this to arise. > The sense base is spread over the iris, but is invisble and > undetectable by science- it arises due to kamma. As I said, though, > without the gross eye as a supporting condition this subtle rupa > cannot arise. > > Scientists may be able to manufacture a gross eye that could be > support for the kamma conditioned rupa to arise- and then some blind > people would be able to see. But if there are no conditions for > kamma to produce the subtle eyesense then they would stay blind. > > The same with ear sense. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, I agree. That is why I said 5 pasaada ruupa cannot be sensed by 5 physical organs of eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. I know there were many discussion on hadaya ruupa. But if you are willing to discuss again it will be helpful. Where does hadaya ruupa exist in our physical body? With respect, Htoo Naing 47774 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 446 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 12 puggalas or 12 individuals there are 8 ariya puggalas and 4 puthujana puggalas. Ariya puggalas have been explained in the previous posts. There are 4 puthujana puggala or individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) 4. duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destination, rootless individual where many likesa arise) 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala This individual has been explained in the previous post. There are all 89 cittas that can arise in these tihetuka puthujana puggala. So all 89 cittas can arise in tihetuka puggala. But this is just a general description and this will depend on who is that tihetuka puggala. If that is a human being then the possible cittas that can arise in them are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas ( 7 akusala origin and 8 kusala origin) c) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (panca and mano dvara-avajjana cittas) d) 8 mahakusala cittas e) 8 mahavipaka cittas f) 5 ruupakusala cittas g) 4 aruupakusala cittas ---- 54 cittas Unlike other puthujana puggalas, these tihetuka puthujana puggala have the potential to attain jhaana or magga and phala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 47775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:17am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 02 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 261 contemplations on body or 261 kaayaanupassanaa there are 12 contemplations on breath and 3 contemplations of implication of breath. These are all anupassanaa or 'seeing things as they arise'. Anu means 'along' 'like' 'according to' behind' 'after' 'under' 'sub-'. And passanaa means 'seeing' 'viewing' 'looking at' 'contemplating' consideration' 'realisation'. Anu_along, anupassana_see along the way as it goes. Anu_like, anupassana_see what things are like. Anu_according to, anupassana_see things according to their appearance. Anu_behind, anupassana_see things behind them as they go. Anu_after, anupassana_see things after them when arise. Anu_under, anupassana_see things under their base what they are like. Anu_sub-, anupassana_see things in their subunit and in detail. There are 15 contempaltions on breath. Or there are 15 kaayaanupassanaa on breath. These 15 are in terms of our communication and actually things are happening on their own. Examples: These scripts that appear just before you reach this part and appear after this part would all appear as on line print and appear as colour and light. Likewise where the anupassii or the practitioner of kaayaanupassana is practising there will be 15 contemplations that he or she will be doing. a) 4 contemplations on internal events of breathing b) 4 contemplations on external events of breathing c) 4 contemplations on internal and external events of breathing d) 1 contemplation on implication of breath as the origination e) 1 contemplation on implication of breath as the dissolution f) 1 contemplation on implication as origination & dissolution -- 15 contemplations on breath With Metta, Htoo Naing 47776 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? nilovg Hi Tep, op 17-07-2005 03:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: N:> When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there > is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. >> Nina. > > What conditions understanding that comes along with the right kind of > mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? ------ N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and vipassana. Howard writes: In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, perserverence, and calm. ------- N: But right understanding has to know that we have the true, kusala intention, perserverence, and calm, and not what a person erroneously takes for them. This is a danger that is not to be underestimated. I also speak for myself here, I am inclined to take patience, perseverance and calm when there is kusala for mine. Lobha is tricky, it is hidden. Thus, right understanding has to be emphasized. But this is difficult for an oridinary person, of course. It is easy to oversee pittfalls. Nina. 47777 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:35am Subject: 60 audio talks on suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi christine_fo... Hello all, Here is a link to approximately 60 digital audio talks (windows media player required) by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya. http://www.bodhimonastery.net/mntalks_audio.html with metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 47778 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 buddhistmedi... From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 202 - 205. SariputtaDhamma message # 1214 Dear Tep, I have inserted the Pali words in paragraphs 203, 204 and 205. 203. When he understands unification of cognizance and non- distraction (cittassa ekaggatam avikkhepam pajaananto) through long in-breaths and out-breaths, (i) he combines the faculties (indriyaani samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati); (ii) he combines the powers (balaani samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati); (iii) he combines the enlightenment factors (bojjhange samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati). (iv) he combines the path (maggam samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati). (v) he combines [other] ideas (dhamme samodaaneti), understands their domain (gocaranca pajaanaati), and penetrates their meaning of sameness (samatthanca pativijjhati). 204. He 'combines the faculties': how does he combine the faculties (katham indriyaani samodaaneti)? He combines the faith faculty through its meaning of resolution (adhimokkhathena saddhindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the energy faculty through its meaning of exertion (paggahathena viriyindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the mindfulness faculty through its meaning of establishment (upatthanathena satindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the concentration faculty through its meaning of non-distraction (avikkhepathena samadhindriyam samodaaneti), he combines the understanding faculty through its meaning of seeing (dassanathena pannindriyam samodaaneti). This person combines these faculties on this object (ayam puggalo imaani indriyaani imasamim aarammane samodaaneti). Hence, he 'combines the faculties' is said (tena vuccati "indriyaani samodaanetii" ti). 205. He 'understands their domain'("gocaranca pajaanaatii" ti,: his supporting object is his domain (yam tassa aarammanam, tam tassa gocaram); his domain is his supporting object (yam tassa gocaram, tam tassa aarammanam). He understands, thus he is a person; the act-of-understanding is understanding (pajaanaatii ti puggalo pajaananaa pannaa). 'Sameness': (sama): the appearance of the supporting-object is sameness (aarammanassa upatthaanam samam), the non-distraction of cognizance is sameness (cittassa avikkhepo samam), [the steadiness of cognizance is sameness (cittassa aditthaanam samam),] the cleansing of cognizance is sameness (cittassa vodaanam samam). [Han: "the steadiness of cognizance is sameness" is not in your text. I have put it in.] 'Meaning': (attha) meaning as blameless (anavijja), meaning as without defilement (niklesa), meaning as cleansing (vodaana), ultimate meaning (parama). [Han: "kla" in niklesa is a conjunct consonant like "kkha" in bhikkhu. It is a very rare conjunct consonant and I cannot find the word niklesa in the dictionaries.] 'Penetrates' (patvijjhati): he penetrates the appearance of the supporting object (aarammanassa upatthana pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of non-distraction of cognizance (cittassa avikkhepa pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of steadiness of cognizance (cittassa aditthaana pativijjhati), he penetrates the meaning of the cleansing of cognizance (cittassa vodaana pativijjhati). Hence 'penetrates the meaning of sameness' is said (tena vuccati "samatthanca pativijjhatii" ti). With metta and deepest respect, Han Tun ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > From: han tun > Date: Sat Jul 9, 2005 8:45 pm > Subject: Re: [SariputtaDhamma] Re: Breathing Treatise - Section iv, > 200 - 201. Message # 1173. > > Dear Tep, > > The following Pali words may be inserted if they do not clash with the > Pali words or translation that you have in your books. I have worked on > paragraph 200 only because it will be the same for sannaa and > vitakka. > 47779 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > ---> Dear Robert K, > > I agree. That is why I said 5 pasaada ruupa cannot be sensed by 5 > physical organs of eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. > > I know there were many discussion on hadaya ruupa. But if you are > willing to discuss again it will be helpful. > > Where does hadaya ruupa exist in our physical body? > > With respect, > _________ dear Htoo, Two old posts on this topic. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5395 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5410 heart base arises dependent on the blood in the heart. If the blood was been circulated outside the body then heart base could arise there, or even in artifical blood. Robertk 47780 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Dan Just talking in general terms for a moment, if the second of 2 (hypothetical) sets of teachings purported to lead to the same goal as the first (where the goal of the first is seen as being a particularly worthy one), then I could see merit in a study of the second. But if that was not the case, then I would not see a study of the second, or an attempt to demonstrate the common aspects between the two, as being of any value in terms of gaining a better understanding of the first. Jon Dan D. wrote: >Dear Jon, >You write: "I'm not sure I see the value in trying to demonstrate the >similarities between 2 different teachings." > >Don't you think that there is great benefit to describing things in a >variety of ways? > >And continue: "It is likely to lead to a stretching of both in order >to achieve the stated objective. It might be better to study each >for what it is, and see where that takes you ;-)). But perhaps you >see some particular benefit?" > >Each is a description of realities and their conditional relations. >Descriptions and the things described are strikingly different, and >separating the two is central to the Dhamma. Reflecting on how the >same realities can be described by very different words helps clarify >the distinction between concept and reality. > > >Metta, > >Dan > > 47781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ jonoabb Hi, Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon (quoting a commentary passage from CMA): > >Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit >which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before >reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator >alike, *all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana >consciousness*. They are so considered because they *occur in the >mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption*, like the >mundane jhanas, and because they *possess the jhana factors* with >an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. > >Tep: Thank you for quoting from this commentary source that proposes >a hypothesis on "vipassana jhana", the term for which there is no >definition in the suttas. Do you have any real proof to show me that >there have been "bare insight" people who achieved vipassana jhana? > > I do not see this passage as proposing anything of the nature of 'vipassana jhana'. As regards real proof of bare insight, I'm not sure what you mean by 'real proof'. There are certainly suttas that describe the attainment of enlightenment by individuals without there being any suggestion that the individual had previously attained jhana. >Jon: So although samma-samadhi is regarded as being of the nature >of jhana consciousness, this does not mean that there must have been >the prior development of mundane jhana (as in samatha bhavana). > >Tep: This sounds like your Q.E.D. of the proof that says "samatha >bhavana only achieves the mundane jhana which is inferior to the >vipassana jhana". Before disproving your "proof", which is based on >just one commentary without any real story yet to back the claim (i.e. >like a hypothesis without a valid test result), let me ask you some >questions as follows. > >Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? >Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? >In your opinion is Anapanasati bhavana a samatha bhavana? >Could you please define samatha bhavana? > > Let me try answering your questions. Tep's Q: Could you please define samatha bhavana? Jon's A: As I understand it, 'samatha' means 'tranquility' and 'bhavana' means 'development'. Hence, the development of tranquility (that being the characteristic of kusala) that is accompanied by panna. At such moments the consciousness is tranquil because of the presence of the kusala factor of passaddhi (calm, serenity, tranquility). In order for such kusala accompanied by panna to arise, the object of consciousness must be appropriate and that object must be contemplated in the correct way. These objects are specified in the suttas and elsewhere (as 38 or 40). They include anapanasati (in- and out-breathing). Tep's Q: In your opinion is Anapanasati bhavana a samatha bhavana? Jon's A: As just stated, anapanasati is included among the 38 or 40 kammathana ('working-ground') more commonly referred to as the subjects of contemplation. Anapanasati is also mentioned in the context of the development of insight, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, but the object of consciousness is different depending on whether the context is samatha or vipassana. Tep's Q: Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? Jon's A: I'm not sure if the actual term 'mundane jhana' appears in the suttas, but any jhana occurring other than at the moment of enlightenment is 'mundane' and not 'supramundane'. Understood this way, there are many, many references in the suttas to mundane jhana. I hope this clarifies. >Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. > > And I hope it can continue further. Jon 47782 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:54am Subject: Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? /Debating jhaana & magga buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - You wrote, > This is because debators are all non-ariyas and are all non- > jhanalaabhii. As long as they have not attained jhaana and magga > there will still be debates. Even if there is a Buddha they will still > be debating if they have not attained jhaana and magga. > You have made a good and valid point! Thank you much. With respect, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > You wrote : > > >This is heated part of discussion. Once I sent you a message and > you brought that up in a discussion. Many followed the discussion. > Because this is a heated area. > > > Not only that it is a hot "area", it also has open questions. So the > debate probably may never end. > > Kind regards, > > Tep > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47783 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. jonoabb Hi Howard Focussing on the 'underlying content' only ;-)) ... upasaka@... wrote: >[Jon] To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of >akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither >can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > Ahh, I see. So you believe that the Buddha expected perfection in >worldlings. > I'm not sure where you see this in my comment. The question is whether, when speaking about matters such as the bodily postures, the Buddha was (a) describing/prescribing an activity to be followed that must necessarily involve aksuala for the worldling, or (b) describing kusala consciousness only, by use of conventional language. In suggesting the latter, I do not see myself as implying any perfection in worldlings. To me, the implication is that any development for the worldling will be very occasional and very gradual. >I thought that all he required in order to go ahead with teaching was >that there be some folks with but little dust in their eyes. But, Jon, what I see >here is very revealing to me, and cuts right to the heart of the matter. It >is clear to me that you and some others here believe that unless there is >already perfection, there is no point in doing anything, for if there is any >akusala, any sense of self, any grasping at all, any action is vitiated. That is >most certainly a doctrine of hopelessness, for we ALL begin FILLED with akusala. > > Yes, we all begin filled with akusala, and that's what makes the arising of kusala a difficult thing ;-)) > Frankly, it amazes me how anyone could have read many, many suttas and >come away with the idea that the Buddha didn't teach the performing of >conventional actions. I find it utterly amazing! I find that to be a perverse view, and I strain to imagine what attractiveness one might find in it. > > I don't understand your reference to attractiveness here. Why is a teaching that involves conventional actions 'attractive', and one that does not, 'unattractive'? >If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being >really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a >conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Well. I don't so regard it. By paying attention, I mean the ordinary >conventional paying attention to all states, without selection or preference. > > I don't see how it's possilbe to 'pay attention to all states, without selection or preference' when there are so many states occurring in such rapid succession (assuming 'states' to include all the sense-door experiences also). Then there are rupas too; are these being exclude and, if so, is that not a selectin or preference? >Sometimes there is wholesomeness and sometimes not, not directly controllable. We >need to pay attention as best we can and see what is what as best we can. If >we don't bother to do this because there is no guarantee at all of doing it >perfectly, then we have ever right to have no expectation whatsoever of ever >awakening. > > Any 'paying attention' (done as a 'practice') that is not wholesomeness is wrong practice. In my view it would be more harmful than not paying attention at all. >Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, >that is not found in the texts) >------------------------------------- >Howard: > Ahh, there ya go - I must learn to curtail that unapproved terminology! > > The terminology is not the point, it was the underlying sentiment or thought that I was referring to. There is no term in the texts that corresponds to 'cultivational activity'. There are of course the 37 'bodhi-pakkhiya-dhammas' but there is a good reasons why these are referred to as 'dhammas' and not as 'activities' or some other similar term. Jon 47784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] jonoabb Hi Tep Thanks for these comments and the sutta quote. I agree that virtue supports the development of insight, and that perfection of virtue is one of the goals. But I do not read the texts as saying that insight can only be developed once virtue has been perfected (not that I'm suggesting that you are saying this), and so as I see it lack of virtue in a person is not an obstacle to that person beginning the development of insight. What do you think? Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: I have followed your dialog with Howard with appropriate >attention. That is, I pay attention only to the points of discussion that are >conducive to wisdom and gladness, and I simply ignore anything else >that is not beneficial to my learning for clearer understanding. This >strategy of listening is one aspect of 'yoniso-manasikara'. The choice >to ignore something(akusala) and to pay attention to something else >(kusala) is a 'cetana'. Cetana is action. Without cetana to choose the >right dhamma, how can there be appropriate attention? Without yoniso- >manasikara how can be arising of kusala dhammas? > >Indeed intention (cetana) may be kusala or akusala. But when guided >by yoniso-manisikara, we don't end up in akusala vipaka. > >Only when we are perfect in sila, then other kusala mental states like >samadhi and panna would follow with no intention - i.e. an "act of will" is >not needed - as stated in the following sutta. > >"For a person endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue, there is no >need for an act of will, 'May freedom from remorse arise in me.' It is in >the nature of things that freedom from remorse arises in a person >endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue. For a person free from >remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in >the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse. ... ... > >"For a person serene in body, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I >experience pleasure.' It is in the nature of things that a person serene in >body experiences pleasure. ... ... ... > >"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act >of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature >of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees >things as they actually are. ... ... ... > >"For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I >realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things >that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of >release. [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] > >Tep : According to this sutta, all starts with consummation in virtue. > >Consummation in virtue --> Remorse --> Joy --> Rapture (piti) --> >Serenity --> Pleasure (sukha) --> Concentration (samadhi) --> Knowing >& seeing things the way they really are --> Disenchantment(nibbida0 -- > > 47785 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Jon: I hope you don't mind if I jump straight to the main point of your >post. > >Tep: I don't mind, Jon. But it might be somewhat better to tell me why >you skip the other issues. > Lack of time, I'm afraid, Tep. My apologies for not responding on all your points. I'd like to, but there just isn't the time at the moment. >Jon: The passage you have quoted above needs to be read in the >context of the sutta as a whole and indeed of the whole Tipitaka. > >Tep: You are really ambitious. To study the whole Tipitaka might take >us the whole lifetime. So we end up doing nothing else but reading, >considering, discussing, formulating hypotheses, and disbelieving >each other. > When I said the whole Tipitaka I meant of course as much of the Tipitaka as we know. But yes, the study of the Tipitaka is a life-time job, but then so is the development of insight, and it is for the purpose of the latter that the former is done. >Jon: Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as >one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed >samatha >results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth in >particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. > >Tep: You might have seen those suttas that focus on the first tetrad >only? There are other short suttas I have seen that recommend using >breathing meditation to practice calmness, but they are not about the >full-blown 4-tetrad version in MN 118 or the Breathing Treatise of the >great Arahant Sariputta. Please read Section iii again. If you disbelieve >me, at least you should believe the Arahant's words. > What I'm saying is that suttas MN 118 show how vipassana can be developed in conjunction with anapanasati; they do not say that anapanasati samadhi itself leads to enlightenment. I hope I've made myself clear here. >Jon: So what is the difference between anapanasati as described in >SN 54:13 and anapanasati as referred to in the context of the 38 or 40 >subjects of contemplation for samatha bhavana? > >Tep: One of the authoritative voices who can answer your question (to >the satisfy your heart desire) is Acariya Buddhaghosa. Similarities with >the 40 subjects of samatha meditation are also described in the >Visuddhimagga Chapter VIII. Just only the 1st tetrad alone, you would >have the 4th jhana as the basis for vipassana to reach Arahantship : > >"... in the forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set >about discerning this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in >mindfulness of breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the >basis for comprehension of formations [with insight], he can reach >Arahantship, the highest fruit." [ para 155, page 263. Vism VIII]. > Yes, after exiting jhana the jhana becomes the basis for insight. But the question here is how the meditator is able to make the previously occurring jhana the basis insight. This is only possible if the meditator has already developed insight to a high degree, that is, before attaining jhana. A person who had not been developing insight could not, on attaining jhana, make the jhana the basis for insight. There is nothing about jhana per se that makes it particularly conducive to the arising of insight. >Vism Para 237 says the fourth tetrad deals only with "pure insight" while >the previous three deal with serenity and insight. So, you may want to >consider changing your view above. > I'm not sure which view you refer to here, but I'd be happy to have any mistaken view pointed out. Jon 47786 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 7/17/05 4:56:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Htoo: Dear Howard, I like your answer. 'Among other things' is what I like most. But I think this does not necessarily means 'intention' 'perserverence' 'calm' are major things and others are minor things. --------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. The ones I mentioned were just those that first came to mind at the moment. :-) --------------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47787 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > I don't mind continuing the discussion, but it hasn't really > >been a discussion. It has been you asking me question after question >and me trying my best to answer them. The discussion would go better >if you would just lay your cards on the table; in other words, tell me >what you are thinking without asking me any questions. ... > > >Herman is right, I do feel nitpicked at times. But that is >because you tend to ask leading questions rather than being direct >about what you are thinking. > > James, this must be the first time anyone has asked me to state more directly what I think on this subject. I think I hear a collective groan from the rest of the members, who I'm sure must feel that I've stated my views ad nauseum ;-)). They are probably feeling right now just like the classmates of the student who has just told the teacher he has forgotten to set the homework! ;-)) ;-)) Jon 47788 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you for your reply to my question about sati. Htoo: > PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in > poor conditions. Tep : Developing compassion(karuna) is a valuable way to subdue hatred for any person-- poor or rich, young or old, needing help or not needing help. "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should develop compassion for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued." [AN V.161] Tep: But there are also great benefits beyond subduing hatred! "These four -- love, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity -- are also known as the boundless states (appamañña), because, in their perfection and their true nature, they should not be narrowed by any limitation as to the range of beings towards whom they are extended. They should be non-exclusive and impartial, not bound by selective preferences or prejudices. A mind that has attained to that boundlessness of the Brahma-viharas will not harbor any national, racial, religious or class hatred. ["The Four Sublime States Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity" by Nyanaponika Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 6] Tep: And here is how to pervade karuna to all beings : "Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress." [DN 13] With Karuna, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > There are as a summary 24 conditions that are serving the relations > among dhammas. Sarah, Nina, and Larry will all be able to tell you > what conditions 'your sati' that conditions knowing of what arises > now > without concept. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in > poor conditions. 47789 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Expanding the list of ayatanas? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Htoo) - In a message dated 7/17/05 8:49:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: heart base arises dependent on the blood in the heart. If the blood was been circulated outside the body then heart base could arise there, or even in artifical blood. =================== This all sounds very conventional to me, Robert. It sounds like science instead of Dhamma, albeit the science of medieval Europe or ancient India. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47790 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/17/05 9:01:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard Focussing on the 'underlying content' only ;-)) ... upasaka@... wrote: >[Jon] To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of >akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither >can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature. >------------------------------------------ >Howard: > Ahh, I see. So you believe that the Buddha expected perfection in >worldlings. > I'm not sure where you see this in my comment. The question is whether, when speaking about matters such as the bodily postures, the Buddha was (a) describing/prescribing an activity to be followed that must necessarily involve aksuala for the worldling, or (b) describing kusala consciousness only, by use of conventional language. ------------------------------------- Howard: My point is that during all conventional activities engaged in by worldlings and lesser ariyans, they being imperfect, there will be akusala moments, and you are using that as a basis for denying that the Buddha ever advocated any conventional activities. But I see that claim as false on the face of it. ------------------------------------- In suggesting the latter, I do not see myself as implying any perfection in worldlings. To me, the implication is that any development for the worldling will be very occasional and very gradual. ------------------------------------- Howard: Without intentionally following the very conventional activities prescribed again and again by the Buddha, there is no basis for any development at all except possibly for dumb luck. --------------------------------------- >I thought that all he required in order to go ahead with teaching was >that there be some folks with but little dust in their eyes. But, Jon, what I see >here is very revealing to me, and cuts right to the heart of the matter. It >is clear to me that you and some others here believe that unless there is >already perfection, there is no point in doing anything, for if there is any >akusala, any sense of self, any grasping at all, any action is vitiated. That is >most certainly a doctrine of hopelessness, for we ALL begin FILLED with akusala. > > Yes, we all begin filled with akusala, and that's what makes the arising of kusala a difficult thing ;-)) ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, akusala certainly makes kusala difficult. And vice-versa, I would suppose. ----------------------------------- > Frankly, it amazes me how anyone could have read many, many suttas and >come away with the idea that the Buddha didn't teach the performing of >conventional actions. I find it utterly amazing! I find that to be a perverse view, and I strain to imagine what attractiveness one might find in it. > > I don't understand your reference to attractiveness here. Why is a teaching that involves conventional actions 'attractive', and one that does not, 'unattractive'? -------------------------------------- Howard: I assume that when someone repeatedly asserts a position I find indefensible and that I see that position as readily contradicted by the teachings of the Buddha over a 45-year period, that person must find something particularly attractive in that position. This is why I make that reference. -------------------------------------- >If however you regard the paying attention taught by the Buddha as being >really only the wholesome moments, then we are no longer talking about a >conventional activity but rather about the kusala consciousness involved. >--------------------------------------- >Howard: > Well. I don't so regard it. By paying attention, I mean the ordinary >conventional paying attention to all states, without selection or preference. > > I don't see how it's possilbe to 'pay attention to all states, without selection or preference' when there are so many states occurring in such rapid succession (assuming 'states' to include all the sense-door experiences also). ----------------------------------- Howard: One is not at first successfully attending to each and every facet - far from it. As one makes progress, however, the fineness of attention grows. Of course, without the practice no reason to expect improvement. ----------------------------------- Then there are rupas too; are these being exclude and, if so, is that not a selectin or preference? ---------------------------------- Howard: Huh? ---------------------------------- >Sometimes there is wholesomeness and sometimes not, not directly controllable. We >need to pay attention as best we can and see what is what as best we can. If >we don't bother to do this because there is no guarantee at all of doing it >perfectly, then we have ever right to have no expectation whatsoever of ever >awakening. > > Any 'paying attention' (done as a 'practice') that is not wholesomeness is wrong practice. In my view it would be more harmful than not paying attention at all. ---------------------------------- Howard: As you wish, Jon. :-) --------------------------------- >Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, >that is not found in the texts) >------------------------------------- >Howard: > Ahh, there ya go - I must learn to curtail that unapproved terminology! > > The terminology is not the point, it was the underlying sentiment or thought that I was referring to. There is no term in the texts that corresponds to 'cultivational activity'. ---------------------------------- Howard: So you don't understand what I mean? I'll explain: It's conventional activity - the kind you seem to think you don't enagage in, or at least shouldn't. ;-) ----------------------------------- There are of course the 37 'bodhi-pakkhiya-dhammas' but there is a good reasons why these are referred to as 'dhammas' and not as 'activities' or some other similar term. ------------------------------ Howard: Pleasant notions, Jon. Concept-only so long as we do nothing about practice. ----------------------------- Jon ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47791 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking nilovg Hi Tep, I am inclined to emphasize paññaa. this can lead to the eradication of ignorance so that the cycle will cease. But we have to know what ignorance, avijjaa, is and what understanding, vijjaa, is. Nina. op 15-07-2005 15:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > The explanation by my highly respected Thai Forest monk is clear to > me. Thinking involves more than vitakka & vicara: chanda, cetana > (volition), manasikara(attention), vitakka & vicara, adhimokkha > (determination), viriya(effort), piti (joy), phassa(consciousness- > impression), and jivita(vitality). The following implications are very > interesting : 1) How do these 11 cetasika in worldlings lead to dukkha? > 2) In order that dukkha ceases "thinking" must stop. Does that include > cessation of citta-sankhara? 47792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. nilovg Hi Larry, op 16-07-2005 00:36 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "It remembers, is non forgetful of the object that appears." L: For me, sati comes first, then body consciousness. Why remember a body > consciousness? --- N: Sati is aware of an object that appears through a doorway. Sati always has an object. In a process there is first body-consciousness experiencing tangible object. After that there are kusala or akusala javanacittas. The kusala javana cittas can be accompanied by sati which is mindful of tangible object. Nina. 47793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nilovg Dear Connie, You took a lot of trouble, thank you. I especially liked the passage about viriya, effort: op 16-07-2005 07:36 schreef connie op connieparker@...: >Ta:< .... one shouldn't be careless, it means > there is viriya, so one is not careless. ... this is the careful of studying, to know when there is viriya but people might think that they have to do other extra thing, not like this > moment. but now there is viriya. who knows? those who had enlighten > know, knew about this, but for the person who just begin to read, one has > to consider that no one can do any viriya or no one can create any viriya > because viriya is there already. so who can do anything? it's there. it > arises and it falls away. who can do, anything? realities are > conditioned. > sacca ñaa.na, sacca is truth. To have firm understanding of the right Path. To know what should be realized. kicca ñaa.na. kicca is function or task. Beginning to be aware of dhammas. kata ñaa.na. Kata: what has been done. the realization of the truth. Nina. 47794 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: Consummation [was three trainings. Lodewijk's answer to Howard.] buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Concerning whether a practitioner should be "endowed with virtue, consummate in virtue" first before starting to develop insight, you asked (message #47784): >Jon: >I agree that virtue supports the development of insight, and that >perfection of virtue is one of the goals. But I do not read the texts as >saying that insight can only be developed once virtue has been >perfected (not that I'm suggesting that you are saying this), and >so as I see it lack of virtue in a person is not an obstacle to that >person beginning the development of insight. What do you think? Tep: Fortunately the Buddha's Teaching in this sutta [AN XI.2, Cetana Sutta] is not that rigid. You're right to say "But I do not read the texts as saying that insight can only be developed once virtue has been perfected..". The key is in cetana -- for example, once you become dispassionate (endowed with, or fulfilled with viraga) then even with no cetana to realize the knowledge & vision of release, you will realize it -- i.e. it is guaranteed by the Buddha. Of course, there is no rule (laid by the Buddha) against starting with vipassana bhavana when we are not yet "fulfilled" with virtues. But a person who starts at intellectual understanding of the ti-lakkhana and stays there without being endowed with viraga can only wish or intend to realize the knowledge and vision of release. And, unfortunately, there is no guarantee of the realization for such a person, according to this sutta. In my opinion, starting anywhere doesn't matter. The point is that you must be dispassionate first before the realization. And the question is how to become dispassionate. Now, if you work your way backward to find the condition that guarantees dispassionate, you'll find 'yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana', and so on to consummation in virtues. That, to me, is an Q.E.D. that it is best to shoot for consummation in virtues one day, no matter where you started. Thank you for being one of the "perfect gentlemen" of this group. Respectfully, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 47795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Dear Agrios, op 15-07-2005 21:42 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: >> N: Saññaa is a cetasika accompanying each citta, and it marks the > object so >> that it can be remembered. When seeing arises saññaa marks visible > object, >> and later on we can think about it, define it, because we remember. > [...] > I am not curious about thinking which arises from various sources, > but rather about mental pictures popping up by themself, without any > thinker being involved. -------- N: You give some examples. It seems to be that such experiences are not the actual seeing or hearing like we do now. Then there are cittas experiencing objects through the mind-door. Saññaa operates so that there are reminiscences, even from long ago, even from the far past, who knows? We cannot trace that and why should we find out? ------- You wrote to Herman: < This things seems to be kamma related, definitely Self made, > and the more carefully I observe them, the more there is of them. > Thinking about them leads nowhere, just more propositions to check out. > Experience is having profound impact on my life, literally ruling > big part of it.> ------- Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala cittas. You say that thinking about such images leads to nowhere, but inspite of this it has impact on you. Then if you understand that they are merely condiitoned dhammas you may attach less importance to them. Why not develop more understanding of the objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? Nina. 47796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon - Your message #47785 is concerned with a "mistaken view" on the anapanasati's power of leading to enlightenment. >Jon: Elsewhere in the sutta pitaka we find reference to anapanasati as >one of the kinds of samatha bhavana. As you know, fully developed >samatha results in the attainment of the jhanas and, after death, rebirth >in particular Brahma planes; it does not per se lead to enlightenment. > >Tep: Vism Para 237 says the fourth tetrad deals only with "pure insight" >while the previous three deal with serenity and insight. So, you may > want to consider changing your view above. > I'm not sure which view you refer to here, but I'd be happy to have any mistaken view pointed out. Jon --------------- Tep: The view that anapanasati bhavana is "fullly developed samatha bhavana" and as such it "does not per se lead to enlightenment" is mistaken. Why? Because it deals with serenity and sight in the 3 tetrads plus full vipassana (aniccnupassana, viraganupassana, nirodhanupassana, and patinissagganupassana) in the last tetrad. Therefore, anapanasati does lead to enlightenment. Q.E.D. Ask Kelvin too. Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > 47797 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ buddhistmedi... Hi, Jon : I shall be glad if you may point out for me a few suttas in which the Buddha taught his monks the "mundane jhana" that did not lead to enlightenment as the goal. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > (snipped) > > Tep's Q: Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? > > Jon's A: I'm not sure if the actual term 'mundane jhana' appears in the > suttas, but any jhana occurring other than at the moment of > enlightenment is 'mundane' and not 'supramundane'. Understood this way, there are many, many references in the suttas to mundane jhana. > > I hope this clarifies. > > >Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. > > > > > > And I hope it can continue further. > > Jon 47798 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:54am Subject: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi all - Why is "the whole" less real than "the part"? The assumption is that parts are directly experienced and the the whole is mentally constructed. Actually, the appearance of the direct opposite is the norm. One might well surmise that it is relative wholes that are experienced, and parts that are mentally constructed. Is it not possible that both positions are off the mark? I suspect that all individuation, at both macroscopic and microscopic levels, is the result of ignorance-based mental processing. There are no separate realities, it seems to me, neither wholes nor parts. All this whole-making and part-making may well be papa~nca. I believe that it is. What actually *is* the case, what "the real" actually is, I believe is directly knowable but indescribable. It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic level. Emptiness of "the person" is an instance of an un-reified perspective at the macroscopic level, and phenomenal emptiness is the un-reified perspective at the microscopic level. Consistently, at all levels, anatta is the reality -absence of any core of separateness or independence, absence of identity. Every alleged separate "entity" is empty -- empty of itself! I put forward the foregoing just as something to consider. I will certainly discuss this, but I'm not looking to argue or defend. I expect some replies to give reasons why parts should take priority over wholes in terms of realities. And perhaps there is some validity to that, or perhaps not. I can imagine a few arguing the opposite. I tend to think that both positions are extremes that are off the mark. Some may say that what I am putting forward is contrary to the Dhamma. That I strongly disagree with. It may well be at odds with the interpretation some put on the Dhamma, especially as seen through the lens of Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think it is perfectly consistent with the Dhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka taken as a whole. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47799 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Commentaries to Treatise of Breathing/ Vitakka & Thinking buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - In an earlier message I wrote: > > Tep: > > The explanation by my highly respected Thai Forest monk is clear to me. Thinking involves more than vitakka & vicara: chanda, cetana > > (volition), manasikara(attention), vitakka & vicara, adhimokkha > > (determination), viriya(effort), piti (joy), phassa(consciousness- > > impression), and jivita(vitality). The following implications are very > > interesting : 1) How do these 11 cetasika in worldlings lead to dukkha? > > 2) In order that dukkha ceases "thinking" must stop. Does that include cessation of citta-sankhara? You responded : "I am inclined to emphasize pannaa. This can lead to the eradication of ignorance so that the cycle will cease. But we have to know what ignorance, avijjaa, is and what understanding, vijjaa, is." Of course, if you started with vijja, then all questions would cease. Warm regards, Tep ======= -------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: (snipped) 47800 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes first? buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - You were talking about intellectual understanding and right understanding. To me they are very far away from each other. Something like transforming a gold fish into dragon. >Tep: What conditions understanding that comes along with the >right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and vipassana. Tep: I don't think so, Nina. I know many Buddhists who started with correct intellectual understanding of the Dhamma 30 years ago, and they are still with intellectual understanding today. They have not yet transformed into dragons. ----------------------- >N: >Howard writes: >In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, >perserverence, and calm. ------- N: But right understanding has to know that we have the true, kusala intention, perserverence, and calm, and not what a person erroneously takes for them. This is a danger that is not to be underestimated. I also speak for myself here, I am inclined to take patience, perseverance and calm when there is kusala for mine. Lobha is tricky, it is hidden. Thus, right understanding has to be emphasized. But this is difficult for an oridinary person, of course. It is easy to oversee pittfalls. Tep: Thank you for quoting the words of Howards along with your comment. I absolutely agree with you about the "danger" which may result from overseeing the "pittfalls". But there is always such a danger accompanying every level as long as there is ignorance, while we struggle to develop sila-samadhi-panna along the way. I don't know how to start at the "right understanding" you are describing. I know one way to get to that advanced level is by practicing indriya- samvara-sila with khanti and viriya to support the four foundations of mindfulness, according to the Kundaliya Sutta. Even indriya-samvara- sila does not depend on intellectual understanding anymore. Respectfully, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > > op 17-07-2005 03:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > N:> When there is understanding, there is mindfulness already and there is no need to think of any intention to be mindful. > >> Nina. > > > > What conditions understanding that comes along with the right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? > ------ > N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and > vipassana. > 47801 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./ Which comes fir... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/17/05 12:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Nina - You were talking about intellectual understanding and right understanding. To me they are very far away from each other. Something like transforming a gold fish into dragon. >Tep: What conditions understanding that comes along with the >right kind of mindfulness that establishes in the object of meditation? N:Correct intellectual understanding, necassary for both samatha and vipassana. Tep: I don't think so, Nina. I know many Buddhists who started with correct intellectual understanding of the Dhamma 30 years ago, and they are still with intellectual understanding today. They have not yet transformed into dragons. ----------------------- >N: >Howard writes: >In my opinion, among other things, the answer is intention, >perserverence, and calm. ------- N: But right understanding has to know that we have the true, kusala intention, perserverence, and calm, and not what a person erroneously takes for them. This is a danger that is not to be underestimated. I also speak for myself here, I am inclined to take patience, perseverance and calm when there is kusala for mine. Lobha is tricky, it is hidden. Thus, right understanding has to be emphasized. But this is difficult for an oridinary person, of course. It is easy to oversee pittfalls. Tep: Thank you for quoting the words of Howards along with your comment. I absolutely agree with you about the "danger" which may result from overseeing the "pittfalls". But there is always such a danger accompanying every level as long as there is ignorance, while we struggle to develop sila-samadhi-panna along the way. I don't know how to start at the "right understanding" you are describing. I know one way to get to that advanced level is by practicing indriya- samvara-sila with khanti and viriya to support the four foundations of mindfulness, according to the Kundaliya Sutta. Even indriya-samvara- sila does not depend on intellectual understanding anymore. Respectfully, Tep ============================= An interesting matter related to this discussion is the Tibetan Buddhist perspective on intellectual understanding. It is very similar to that expressed on DSG! The Tibetans, especially the Gelugpa and Kagyu madhyamikas put tremendous emphasis on analytic, contemplative meditation and study. They frequently express the idea that the application of rigorous logical analysis and contemplation of the Dharma (i.e., Dhamma) conditions the arising of prajna (i.e., pa~n~na). Of course, they don't ignore samatha bhavana by a long shot, but rigorous study, and logical and intellectual anaysis and contemplation is at the heart of their approach. They also make a major deal out of the unreality of concepts! So, perhaps the core DSG folks are crypto-vajrayanists! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47802 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Hi Jon, > >You asked: "What in your view is the purpose served by pursuing the comparison?" > >Wisdom -- developing knowledge and understanding of both. > That very much depends on your definition of wisdom ;-)) >You stated: "There are other possible scenarios, like you cling to both views/religions and don't want to let either go." > >If you are truly selfless, there is no clinging in the Buddhist sense of the word. But, any way even if you are cling and selfless (alone either path) you are not suffering do to your experiences and you are not intestinally causing others to suffer. This fulfils a mission of both Christians and Buddhists. > > But how does one become 'truly selfless' on the first place? Does the kind of comparison we are talking about help towards that goal? Jon 47803 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 nilovg Hi Tep, op 17-07-2005 14:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > [Han: "kla" in niklesa is a conjunct consonant like "kkha" in bhikkhu. It is > a very rare conjunct consonant and I cannot find the word niklesa in the > dictionaries.] N: ni+ noun means: without (PED at end of ni prefix). Kilesa or klesa: defilement, in PED. NIna. 47804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tibetan studies. nilovg Hi Howard, when walking around in Bodhgaya I saw Tibetans sitting there with their books and studying them very intently, with great concentration and dedication. I was impressed by their earnestness. Nina. op 17-07-2005 19:14 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > The Tibetans, especially the Gelugpa and Kagyu madhyamikas put > tremendous emphasis on analytic, contemplative meditation and study. They > frequently express the idea that the application of rigorous logical analysis > and > contemplation of the Dharma (i.e., Dhamma) conditions the arising of prajna > (i.e., > pa~n~na). 47805 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two methods. Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/17/05 4:59:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, This is very good to reflect on. I like to highlight the two methods: analytical and synthetical or relational. Not so much concept versus reality, since there were so many debates, if you know what I mean. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I certainly do! ;-) -------------------------------------------- op 16-07-2005 17:07 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: Hardness, warmth, > sights, sounds, tastes, mind-moments, pleasant feelings, cravings, > concentration, mindfulness, attention, distractedness etc, AS SEPARATE > REALITIES, do not > exist. Conventionally they exist as separate entities, but not actually. They > are accorded separate existence only on the basis of mental constructions > (sankharic operations). In reality, they are interrelated facets of an > inseparable experiential stream, facets either dependently co-occuring, or > consecutively > occurring without gap, or arising subsequently in conditioned dependence, but > not existing as separate entities at all. ------- N: I understand what you mean. It is true, there are no separate dhammas, dhammas in isolation. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Good! I mean no more than this (and no less). ------------------------------------------- ------ H: ... The analysis of wholes into parts ... But there lies a danger in that approach: the danger in > according separate reality to "atomic" constitents that result from such > analysis. > Techniques to counter such error are to be found in the synthetic, relational > approach of the Patthana, and more essentially in my opinion, in the use of > paticcasamupada as a contemplative scheme. > To sum up, I see emptiness (lack of separate existence or lack of > ultimate reality) as the cognitive partner to emotional relinquishment, and I > believe > that it is insight into the former along with cultivation of the latter that > leads to awakening. ------- N: You may find Abhidhamma Studies by ven. Nyanaponika, II the Twofold Method interesting. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a good reference. I own it, but I haven't read it for a very long time. ----------------------------------------------- He explains that the two methods are necessary. It is rejected by the Expositor that any dhamma arises singly. (p. 22 of Abh Studies). And p. 23: he calls internal relations those within a citta (the cetasikas which condiiton the citta) and external relation the connections between several of such units. The Patthana is mainly concerned with these so called external relations. We read in Abh Studies: He applies this to the Satipatthana sutta, differentiating: contemplation of internal phenomena, those in others and the combination, Then he shows the meaning of: dhammas as arising, as passing away and the combination of both. Now about the stages of insight: <1 Analysis of the corporeal (ruupa) | | analysis 2:Analysis of the mental (naama) | 3 Contemplation of both (naama-ruupa) | | Synthesis 4 both viewed as conditioned (paticcasamuppaado) | 5 Application of the three characteristics to mind-and-body-cum-conditions= combination of analysis and synthesis.> end quote. **** My remarks: this fits with the stages of insight. We have to learn first nama as nama and rupa as rupa, and there can be awareness of only one characteristic at a time. It is impossible to be aware of seeing and visible object at the same time. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I see these as mutually dependent facets of a "larger" momentary experiential reality. I agree that they cannot simultaneously be objects of vi~n~nana. (I also believe with considerable certainty, however, that the larger momentary experiential reality which subsumes the two is nondually available to some in an experiential state that has no sense of either subject or object.) ------------------------------------------ The second stage is knowing dhammas as conditioned. This is not intellectual understanding of conditions, but by direct understanding, by insight. We cannot imagine yet how this can be realized without thinking, but paññaa is able to achieve this. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not there, not with a direct seeing that is anything but shaky and vague! ;-)) But I recognize this as a critical stage - a major jump! ---------------------------------------- Since I am only a beginner, I pay attention to understanding one nama or rupa as it appears. This is the analytical method, but without this, there will be a great deal of confusion about the Patthana and the D.O. We have to understand which dhamma exactly conditions which dhamma, and by what type of relation: simultaneous or not simultaneous. When we study all this we have to keep in mind that pariyatti is not patipatti, although correct pariyatti is a foundation for patipatti. Nina. ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47806 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: [...] > Then there are cittas experiencing objects through the mind-door. Saññaa > operates so that there are reminiscences, even from long ago, even from the > far past, who knows? We cannot trace that and why should we find out? I do not want to trace them to the source, but rather to find out how they arise in the present moment and why. I can only see them when they already are manifested. Then certain reactions to them - follow. These flashes are more or less like some sort of bomb or track changing device. Derail attention or vitaka and another cittas arise... somewhere... in bushes. :) usually chasing these "flashes of something". > Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they > are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala > cittas. There is strong Self here wanting to stay on the subject of "just observing" and not being pushed around :) Lots of moha, lobha and dosa. So akusala is right. Could you please explain why mind door is so different? I would like to understand why five senses produce vipaka cittas but sixth not. > You say that thinking about such images leads to nowhere, but in spite of > this it has impact on you. > Then if you understand that they are merely conditioned dhammas you may > attach less importance to them. Why not develop more understanding of the > objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? > Nina. Nina, if I only can do something about it. I am just observing whats going on. Knowing about them being just flashes doesn't help. I still think this is happening to me, so no panna here. During practice, when there is no more thinking, right in split second there is sudden flash - and my mind is chasing shadows... again :) Could this be restlessness I am observing? Whats the source of restlessnes? respectfully, Agrios. 47807 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ Evan_Stamato... Tep, Sorry to answer a question asked directly of Jon, but it is a topic I feel stronly about. Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the following quote from MN52 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn052-tb0.html). This quote was spoken by Ananda, however, not the Buddha, however, there are many other suttas in which the Buddha does exhort the bhikkhus in the same way: "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana". There are also suttas where he tells them to transcend these states as they are not completely still or satisfactory. ______________________________ "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then - through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters [self-identity views, grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and irritation] - he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One - the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened - where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] ______________________________ The sutta goes on the state the same for the divine abidings also and the higher jhanas. All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal. The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal. There is no turning back and one is assured of not falling back into any of the woeful states. With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 18 July 2005 1:35 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/ Hi, Jon : I shall be glad if you may point out for me a few suttas in which the Buddha taught his monks the "mundane jhana" that did not lead to enlightenment as the goal. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Tep > > Tep Sastri wrote: > (snipped) > > Tep's Q: Where in the suttas did the Buddha talk about "mundane jhana"? Did the Buddha ever recommend "mundane jhana" to his monks? > > Jon's A: I'm not sure if the actual term 'mundane jhana' appears in > the suttas, but any jhana occurring other than at the moment of > enlightenment is 'mundane' and not 'supramundane'. Understood this way, there are many, many references in the suttas to mundane jhana. > > I hope this clarifies. > > >Thank you for seeing value in continuing our discussion. > > > > > > And I hope it can continue further. > > Jon 47808 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. lbidd2 Nina: "Sati is aware of an object that appears through a doorway. Sati always has an object. In a process there is first body-consciousness experiencing tangible object. After that there are kusala or akusala javanacittas. The kusala javana cittas can be accompanied by sati which is mindful of tangible object." Hi Nina, When sati is experienced sati is the object. When body consciousness is experienced there is only body consciousness. Larry 47809 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan {and Jon} - Thank you for participating in the discussion. It should not be thought of as a close-door communication between Jon and me, because we are always happy whenever someone joins us. It is more lively with more people ! So you wrote the following about the jhanas: -- "Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the following quote from MN52." -- "All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal." -- "The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal." MN 52 states for the 1st (and also for any higher) jhana, " He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then ... ...." So, my understanding of MN52 is that a jhana that is followed by anupassana on the impermanent characteristic of the jhana-citta may or may not lead to release; further, pure Jhana attainment alone is not sufficient for release. However, there is no mentioning about a "mundane" jhana in this sutta -- or in any of the suttas I have studied. My suspicion has been that the term "mundane" was invented by a commentator. That's why I asked Jon to help me reject/confirm my suspicion. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Tep, > > Sorry to answer a question asked directly of Jon, but it is a topic I > feel stronly about. > > Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the > following quote from MN52 > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn052- tb0.html). > This quote was spoken by Ananda, however, not the Buddha, however, there are many other suttas in which the Buddha does exhort the bhikkhus in the same way: "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana". There are also suttas where he tells them to transcend these states as they are not completely still or satisfactory. > > ______________________________ > "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the > first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This > first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & > intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he > reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then - > through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters [self-identity views, > grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and > irritation] - he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be > totally unbound, never again to return from that world. > > "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One - > the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self- awakened - where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. > > [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] > ______________________________ > > The sutta goes on the state the same for the divine abidings also and > the higher jhanas. > > All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal. The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal. There is no turning back and one is assured of not falling back into any of the woeful states. > > With Metta, > > Evan > 47810 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana Evan_Stamato... Tep, I understand your focus and I must admit that I do not remember in any of the DN, MN or SN suttas there being mention of mundane and supramundane w.r.t jhanas but my memory is not that good so I would rather wait for Jon's response. There is an interesting discussion on mundane/supramundane jhanas which even though it doesn't answer your question, may be of interest. You can find it here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas05.htm With Metta, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tep Sastri Sent: Monday, 18 July 2005 11:04 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana Hi, Evan {and Jon} - Thank you for participating in the discussion. It should not be thought of as a close-door communication between Jon and me, because we are always happy whenever someone joins us. It is more lively with more people ! So you wrote the following about the jhanas: -- "Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the following quote from MN52." -- "All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal." -- "The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal." MN 52 states for the 1st (and also for any higher) jhana, " He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then ... ...." So, my understanding of MN52 is that a jhana that is followed by anupassana on the impermanent characteristic of the jhana-citta may or may not lead to release; further, pure Jhana attainment alone is not sufficient for release. However, there is no mentioning about a "mundane" jhana in this sutta -- or in any of the suttas I have studied. My suspicion has been that the term "mundane" was invented by a commentator. That's why I asked Jon to help me reject/confirm my suspicion. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Tep, > > Sorry to answer a question asked directly of Jon, but it is a topic I > feel stronly about. > > Any of the jhanas can lead to the paths and fruits as is shown in the > following quote from MN52 > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn052- tb0.html). > This quote was spoken by Ananda, however, not the Buddha, however, there are many other suttas in which the Buddha does exhort the bhikkhus in the same way: "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana". There are also suttas where he tells them to transcend these states as they are not completely still or satisfactory. > > ______________________________ > "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in > the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, > 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated > & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, > he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then - > through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters [self-identity views, > grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and > irritation] - he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be > totally unbound, never again to return from that world. > > "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One - > the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self- awakened - where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. > > [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] > ______________________________ > > The sutta goes on the state the same for the divine abidings also and > the higher jhanas. > > All jhanas are called mundane attainments because they are impermanent and therefore are no guarantee of reaching the goal. The paths and fruits are the supramundane attainments because once they have been achieved, one is assured of the goal. There is no turning back and one is assured of not falling back into any of the woeful states. > > With Metta, > > Evan > 47811 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I_Gangtok1_01.mp3 nichiconn Dear Nina, Thank you for the further explanation (and the spelling!). Could you please make my Thai recognizable, too? B_Benares_02.mp3? >> per iryaba kam li santati kanat sanna 3 things which hinder the experiencing of the arising and falling away << There is also a later Thai section on these, but I'll just skip that. Hard for me to connect sometimes other sounds as being Pali words my eyes are familiar with, even! Read today in Dispeller considering 'that natural language': <<[1946-1961] Discrimination of Language comes to have sound (words) as its object, not a concept as its object [...] but when the ear is merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary man, even if he has learnt much.>> and from Gangtok: "if we don't forget that the teachings of buddha is according to his understanding and enlightenment, we'll not be careless and think that it's very easy. ...one should know whether it is one's one understanding or not yet. ... one shouldn't be heedless about ...those who just learn to think about the name, like seeing, nama and visible object, rupa. That is not enough. because buddha didn't just develop his understanding just to tell us about the name of all these realities, but he had to use the term to define and to point out the characteristic of reality, for those who is not careless will develop gradually until it's one's own understanding. For example, visible object is now is one's own understanding that it's just that which can be seen?" begin again! connie sacca ñaa.na, sacca is truth. To have firm understanding of the right Path. To know what should be realized. kicca ñaa.na. kicca is function or task. Beginning to be aware of dhammas. kata ñaa.na. Kata: what has been done. the realization of the truth. Nina. 47812 From: "agriosinski" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something agriosinski > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > Why not develop more understanding > of the > > objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? > > Nina. Nina! what if these flashes are mental sankharas. Is it possible? Until now, I understood sankharas as some sort of "thinking clusters" something forming... like thinking. But never actually seen them "in action". But if I understand sankharas as determinations, then everything falls into right place, including avija-sankhara-vinnana sequence! What do you think? Agrios. 47813 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:58pm Subject: Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness egberdina Hi Howard, This is such a great post !!!! I especially agree with the bit between "Hi all" and where you sign off :-) There was another one recently, which I wanted to thank you for, but I just can't find it at the moment. Anyway, thank you. This is awesome indeed. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi all - > > Why is "the whole" less real than "the part"? The assumption is that > parts are directly experienced and the the whole is mentally constructed. > Actually, the appearance of the direct opposite is the norm. One might well surmise > that it is relative wholes that are experienced, and parts that are mentally > constructed. Is it not possible that both positions are off the mark? I suspect > that all individuation, at both macroscopic and microscopic levels, is the > result of ignorance-based mental processing. There are no separate realities, it > seems to me, neither wholes nor parts. All this whole-making and part-making > may well be papa~nca. I believe that it is. What actually *is* the case, what > "the real" actually is, I believe is directly knowable but indescribable. > It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's > deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to > help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. > And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic > level. Emptiness of "the person" is an instance of an un-reified perspective at > the macroscopic level, and phenomenal emptiness is the un-reified perspective > at the microscopic level. Consistently, at all levels, anatta is the reality > -absence of any core of separateness or independence, absence of identity. > Every alleged separate "entity" is empty -- empty of itself! > I put forward the foregoing just as something to consider. I will > certainly discuss this, but I'm not looking to argue or defend. I expect some replies > to give reasons why parts should take priority over wholes in terms of > realities. And perhaps there is some validity to that, or perhaps not. I can imagine > a few arguing the opposite. I tend to think that both positions are extremes > that are off the mark. Some may say that what I am putting forward is contrary > to the Dhamma. That I strongly disagree with. It may well be at odds with the > interpretation some put on the Dhamma, especially as seen through the lens of > Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think it is perfectly consistent with the > Dhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka taken as a whole. > > With metta, > Howard 47814 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:18pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 250 - Attachment/lobha (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch15- Attachment (lobha) contd] Lobha is attached to many different kinds of objects and it has many degrees. Different names can denote the cetasika which is lobha. Råga (greed), abhijjå (covetousness) and taùhå (craving) are other names for lobha. When lobha is coarse it motivates akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) through body, speech or mind. Because of lobha one may commit many kinds of bad deeds in order to obtain what one desires. If the degree of akusala is such that it motivates an evil deed, the result of it may be an unhappy rebirth or unpleasant experiences through the senses in the course of life. Lobha can motivate akusala kamma pathas through the body, which are stealing and sexual misbehaviour, and akusala kamma pathas through speech which are lying, slandering and idle talk. Lobha can motivate covetousness or abhijjå, the desire to take away someone else’s property, which is akusala kamma patha through the mind. Moreover, when it is accompanied by diììhi, it can motivate certain kinds of wrong view which are akusala kamma patha through the mind(1). As regards covetousness, the Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 249) states that it should be regarded as the outstretched hand of the mind (reaching) for others’ prosperity. If one merely wishes to have someone else’s property but does not plan to take it away, greed is not akusala kamma patha. There are many degrees of greed and only when one really plans to take away someone else’s property it is akusala kamma patha through the mind(2). *** 1) Certain kinds of wrong view, not every kind, are akusala kamma patha through the mind. I shall deal with these in Chapter 16. 2) Atthasåliní I, Part III, Chapter V, 101. ***** [Attachment (lobha) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 47815 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:01am Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Dear Nina, > Experiencing objects through the mind-door is not produced by kamma, they > are not vipaakacittas like seeing or hearing. They are mostly akusala > cittas. > You say that thinking about such images leads to nowhere, but inspite of > this it has impact on you. > Then if you understand that they are merely condiitoned dhammas you may > attach less importance to them. Why not develop more understanding of the > objects appearing through the six doorways at this moment? == You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop more understanding. Which one is it to be? Kind Regards Herman 47816 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion/Mundane Jhana buddhistmedi... Hi, Evan - I really appreciated the opportunity to discuss the origin of mundane jhana with you. At this point we have agreed that no suttas we have studied contain this term. Perhaps, Jon can show us the origin of mundane jhanas since he was the one who brought it up in the first place. Please stay in the loop. Thank you for the Web link too. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Tep, > > I understand your focus and I must admit that I do not remember in any > of the DN, MN or SN suttas there being mention of mundane and > supramundane w.r.t jhanas but my memory is not that good so I would > rather wait for Jon's response. There is an interesting discussion on > mundane/supramundane jhanas which even though it doesn't answer your question, may be of interest. You can find it here: > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas05.htm > > With Metta, > > Evan > 47817 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: flashes of something rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > through the six doorways at this moment? > > == > > You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling > everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop > more understanding. > > Which one is it to be? > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman Dear Herman, What understanding sees is that there is no control. RobertK 47818 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? egberdina Hi Jon, > When I said the whole Tipitaka I meant of course as much of the Tipitaka as we know. But yes, the study of the Tipitaka is a life-time job, but then so is the development of insight, and it is for the purpose of the latter that the former is done. > Just out of interest, Jon, in this life-time of you purposefully studying the Tipitaka (practice), is there ever any unwholesomeness? Follow your own advice, Jon, and put the books down. Kind Regards Herman 47819 From: "Egbert" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:40am Subject: Re: flashes of something egberdina Hi RobertK and (Agrios), Sorry to be talking about you in your absence, Agrios :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > through the six doorways at this moment? > > > > == > > > > You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling > > everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop > > more understanding. > > > > Which one is it to be? > Dear Herman, > What understanding sees is that there is no control. So Nina's advice to Agrios was not to set out and purposefully develop this understanding? Kind Regards Herman 47820 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 0:57am Subject: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... christine_fo... Hello all, I am looking for a sutta which is in the Samyutta Nikaya somewhere ... It concerns the five (I think) things a woman cannot be. One of them is a Sammasambuddha and I think among the others are World Turning monarch, Mara, and possibly king of the gods. Any help in pointing me to this sutta would be much appreciated. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 47821 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... christine_fo... Hello All, I found it!! Sorry - gave you all a wrong steer - I've found what I was looking for in the Majjhima Nikaya 115.15 The Many Kinds of Elements: "He understands: 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is no such possibility.' [1090] And he understands: 'It is possible that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is such a possibility'. He understands 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... that a woman could occupy the position of Sakka ... that a woman could occupy the position of Maara ... that a woman could occupy the position of Brahmaa - there is no such possibility.' And he understands: 'It is possible that a man might be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... that a man might occupy the position of Sakka ... that a man might occupy the position of Maara ... that a man might occupy the position of Brahmaa - there is such a possibility.' Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation note: 1090 - This statement asserts only that a Fully Enlightened Buddha always has the male sex, but does not deny that a person who is now a woman may become a Fully Enlightened Buddha in the future. To do so, however, at an earlier point she will have had to be reborn as a man. metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > I am looking for a sutta which is in the Samyutta Nikaya somewhere ... > It concerns the five (I think) things a woman cannot be. > > One of them is a Sammasambuddha and I think among the others are World > Turning monarch, Mara, and possibly king of the gods. > > Any help in pointing me to this sutta would be much appreciated. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 47822 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness philofillet Hi Howard and all >> It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's > deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to > help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. > And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic > level. Yes, well said. We learn to let go of clinging to people and things (reify at the macroscopic level) as understanding develops, and we see that the elemental components of experience, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus (and any other ways the Buddha broke things down in order to help us develop understanding of anatta) are momentary and miniscule in both duration and import. I know you think that the Abhidhamma approach sets up cittas as small agents of knowing and I guess you see that as a kind of reification or deification or something, but looking at things in that way is just to help us to better understand anatta, not to set up cittas and cetasikas as little kings. Those similes are not to be held on to. They are helpful to some people but are not at the core of the teaching. We come to see that elements are hardly anything to seek to hold on to or care about, so I don't think there is reification there. But I may have misunderstood you. Or do you see reification in the teaching that rare, momentary awareness of paramattha dhammas is of great import? Wouldn't that be reification of the mindfulness of paramattha dhammas rather than the paramattha dhammas themselves? BTW, these days I am feeling that I will say "paramattha dhammas" or "Dhamma realities" or something like that rather than "realities." I keep thinking these days that the Buddha was not a scientist and didn't seek to explain the workings of the world as a scientist does and that simply saying "realities" could mislead people into going about things with too much of a physiological/psychological bent. (Is that "phenomenolgical?" I've never gotten around to asking what that word means!) He discovered and explained a system of understanding the world for the purpose of liberation from suffering, so, personally speaking, I don't expect close phenomenological (?) investigation of what is going on physiologically through the sense doors to perfectly match the Buddha's teaching. He discovered and taught for the purpose of liberation, not scientific investigation. So, for example, I wouldn't ponder the import of cochlear implants as Herman does or did, because it seems to me that that is the realm of neurology or some other logy, not Dhamma. We take what the Buddha or those noble ariyan disciples who followed him closely (if one doubts the authorship of Abhidhamma) taught, and *believe* it, and patiently work towards understanding it. I guess you and many others say that we should never believe anything that we haven't confirmed phenomenologically, through our own experience, but I think that's a mistake. Believing has to come first. This is a religion, after all. If we stick with blind faith, that would be silly - we gradually move towards confirming whatever aspects of Dhamma we can. But at first there cannot be much of this confirmation, I'd say. There must be so much patience. Sorry Howard, I rambled off topic there, as usual. I guess this is something I've wanted to say to you and others who stress the priority of experiencing things before believing them. You may be right. This is just how I'm thinking these days. Metta, Phil p.s Herman, hi, back to your post in a few days. 47823 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah & All... sarahprocter... Hi Alice, (Christine, AntonyW & all) I’m rather behind with some replies .... --- balancing_life wrote: > Just to explain, the very first thing that i did after reading > Buddhism books were not to take lives, and that meant to me to become > a vegetarian, but unfortunately although i love vegetables, i failed, .... S: not taking lives does not mean one has to be a vegetarian. The Buddha wasn’t. ..... > cos although i do not order pork, beef, mutton or chickens for my > meals, i still cannot resist eating KFC, fish meat, prawns, cockles, > cuttlefish & squid...and if some of them came along with the foods i > ordered, i had to finish them off, as it has been ingrained in me by > my mum, since very young to finish everything that is on my plate or > else in my next life, i wouldn't have anything to eat. ... S: :) I had the same training..... ..... > I once asked a Mahayana monk about this, and he said not to worry > about it, as i am just a "layperson", but he advised me only to buy > only cooked food or "dressed" chickens, ie, not to give an order to > slaughter, "live" chickens, cattle, goats, pigs, prawns, etc. ... S: I think this was good advice and is supported by the Buddha’s words. Not just laypeople, but also bhikkhus eat meat unless specially slaughtered. Others may add more details if you request – I’m afraid I won’t have time to pull out texts this week. (Chris, Antony W??) ..... > When i first read about the precept of not taking lives, including > insects, at first i was also so depressed that we are not allowed to > kill mosquitoes that are sucking my blood, but just to brush them > away, and also that means also not to kill cockroaches, but having > the experience of the foul smelling creature, if they were given the > chance to multiply, they will quickly infest the whole house, and > each time that i see one crossing my path, i would kill it, whilst > uttering "Om Mani PadMe Hum"...hmmm, definitely so unBuddhist of me, > but i've got no choice. .... S: This is just thinking about it. When we’re confident that avoiding harm is the right way and there is metta instead of dosa at such times, one isn’t bothered by the mosquitoes or cockroaches. I’ve seen amongst my students that those who are most bothered are the ones flapping and swatting and just building up dosa. I think we can just get used to wearing suitable clothing, using insect repellant spray, keeping the house clean, taking cockroaches outside and so on.....Again, I’m sure others like Chris and Antony could add more. .... > > And after reading all those Buddhism books, my anger has more or less > dissapatied, although i do feel hurt & dissapointed with ManKind, > whenever people are angry with me or when Buddhism yahoo groups > members fight amongst themselves, and fyi, i have never in my life, > had a verbal fight or otherwise, with anyone in my life. .... S: but when we feel angry or disappointed, it’s also dosa – whether we show it or keep quiet. We can always justify this dosa, but the problem is never mankind... .... > > My depression is not about the anger, with the ones who caused my > niece's death, but about my own regrets, .... S: It’s understandable and I’m sure it’s the same for her father. But it’s so useless as you can see in his case. Better to put your time and energy into helping others as you try to do. ... > about not knowing more or > being closer to my nieces, that they can approach me, if they have > any problems...as i said earlier, i always thought they would be here > forever, ie, that they would outlive me...it's just that i do not > understand why kids, just at the age of 12, would do such a thing? .... S: It’s quite a common problem and often there are no warning signals at all. Like your niece, some girls may be very well-behaved good students and may keep all their depressions and worries to themselves. Please don’t blame yourself anymore. .... > Let us say, that sadly, my brother is a person, who would "cut off > his nose, in order to spite his face" and anybody who has "stepped on > his tail", would be severely "punished" & that is why he is reminding > them yearly, which i feel the money of just a day's advertisement, > (it costs him about RM2,000 or USD 500), could be put to a better > use...more than a month's salary, in my case. .... S: He has to do things his way. We can’t always help those dear to us. Be patient and have metta, so he knows he can turn to you if he wishes. As you go on to say, ‘there is no use in talking or persuading him otherwise. ‘. .... > It's just that he still has "attachement" to her and is still unable > to "let go" yet, since she died in such a tragic circumstance...if > she passed away, due to an illness, then he probably would not feel > that way...as Muslims would say, "Insyallah", meaning "God's Will" or > in Buddhist terms, Karma/Kamma, Fate/Fated, Destiny or Kismet. ... S: He blames himself instead of accepting the complex conditions and kamma at work. It must be very hard for him and he needs to be strong for the rest of his family. .... > > Like you, Sarah, eversince i have been a very young gal, a pre- > schooler, i was not like the normal kids, meaning, i would sit down > on a rattan chair after my dinner at 5pm, in the garden and my > favourite past-time would be looking at the clouds, watching them > changing shapes, as they rolled away in the skies, and i would wonder > why on earth i was put on Earth for, ie, for what purpose...very deep > thinking for a kindergartener, isn't it, and when i found Buddhism, i > at last, wondered no more...i think that i must have been a Buddhist, > in my last life as well. .... S: Wow! – I don’t recall experiences like this at such a young age. .... > > Ok, gotto go and don't worry about me...my depression is about other > things now, as i feel that i have used up all my good Karma and is > now reaping my bad Karma, .... S: Depression or dosa can always find something to latch onto:) As you suggest it goes from one story-line to another....always looking for fuel. What is the bad kamma? Thinking with dosa and depression about your family difficulties, work and so on is not bad kamma. It is the accumulation of more dosa on account of stories about what has been seen, heard and so on. This is what will lead to more bad kamma in future. We dig our own graves of bad kamma by not seeing the truth of the present realities. Yes, it takes strength and courage to face up to these truths. .... >but Buddhism has helped me to understand > that nothing is forever and everything is just temporary and not > permanent...well, i hope so...so when you don't hear from me anymore > or that i have unsubscribed from here, then expect the worst scenario. .... S: Please keep writing to us, Alice. You really have a lot to contribute and I enjoy your reflections a lot. As I’ve said to others, I’ll be away for a few weeks so any replies of mine are likely to be delayed. Hopefully, other members, will respond to you. Please tell us if you’re having a tough spell anytime. .... > > I kept telling my friend, who knows about my problem that i am facing > rite now, (which is beyond & out of my control) that i wanted to > commit suicide to escape this suffering that i am facing rite now and > he advised me not to, and to watch "Constantine" by Keenanu Reavees, > saying that if i were to do so, i won't be re-incarnated and what is > keeping from doing that, is in my next life, it would be worse than > this life, that i am having now...so again don't worry, as i do not > want to suffer anymore sufferings in the future, but just to accept > this suffering in this life, no matter how bad it is going to > be...and as for me, this life of mine has ended, before it has even > began. ... S: Your friend gave you good advice. Most of what we think of as suffering in this life – the unpleasant mental feelings – are ‘self’-inflicted. For example, when there is metta or dana or reflection on the teachings, there is no unpleasant feeling at all. Why do we have unpleasant feelings? Because of attachment to self and pleasant feelings. Also, remember that life only ever lasts a moment. All the past difficulties have gone....they’re just an idea or fantasy now. By developing awareness, there is less and less clinging and aversion to what was experienced in the past and what will be experienced in the future. > AliceInAlwaysInOptimisticLand ... S: I’d like to see AliceInRealisticLand:)) I’ll greatly look forward to chatting more to you on my return, Alice. Metta, Sarah p.s there were a lot of good reminders in the section on kamma in your post #47405. ‘Kamma is always just... – it is never angry or pleased,.... it is simply the law of cause and effect’ also, I like this one ‘we are foolish if we grow angry and blame it when it burns us because we have made a mistake.’ Oh and in your post #47470, ‘but for a seed to sprout, certain auxiliary causes such, as soil, rain etc are required. In the same way for a Kamma to produce an effect, several auxiliary causes such as circumstances, surroundings etc are required....’ I think the reflections on kamma are always very beneficital. ==================================== 47824 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? buddhistmedi... Hi, Herman {and Howard and Jon} - You wrote to Jon: > Hi Jon, > > >Jon: When I said the whole Tipitaka I meant of course as much of > >the Tipitaka as we know. But yes, the study of the Tipitaka is a > >life-time job, but then so is the development of insight, and it is > >for the purpose of the latter that the former is done. > > > > Herman: Just out of interest, Jon, in this life-time of you purposefully > studying the Tipitaka (practice), is there ever any > unwholesomeness? > > Follow your own advice, Jon, and put the books down. > Tep: Just for record keeping purposes the following is what Jon wrote to Howard in his message # 47479 : Jon: "To my way of thinking, any activity that involves frequent moments of akusala can not be something that is 'taught by the Buddha' and neither can it be 'useful and wholesome' in nature." "Any so-called 'cultivational activity' (a term, by the way, that is not found in the texts) that is actually a moment of akusala consciousness must be a moment of wrong practice, because the whole underlying purpose of cultivational activity is the development of insight. So the result is that one is led further away from a proper understanding of things as they truly are." Tep: I shall be glad to hear what Jon might say about the inconsistency that Herman has discovered. Warm regards, Tep ========= 47825 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:30am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 447 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 12 puggalas or 12 individuals there are 8 ariya puggalas or 8 pure individuals and 4 puthujana puggalas or 4 heavily-defiled individuals. Ariya puggalas have been explained in the previous posts. There are 4 puthujana puggala or 4 heavily-defiled individuals. They are 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (triple-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala (double-rooted individual where many kilesas arise ) 3. sugati ahetuka puthujana puggala (happy destination, rootless individual where many kilesas arise) 4. duggati ahetuka puthujana puggala (unhappy destination, rootless individual where many likesa arise) 1. tihetuka puthujana puggala (explained in the previous post) 2. dvihetuka puthujana puggala This individual is who was born with dvihetuka patisandhi citta. This means that when he or she was born the patisandhi citta that arose just had alobha root or non-attachment root and adosa root or non- aversion root. There is no amoha or panna as a root. So they are called dvihetuka puggala. These individuals are all puthujana puggala like tihetuka. But they do not have the potential that will help developing of jhaana or magga or phala naana in thier current life however hard they are trying. This is the main difference between dvihetuka and tihetuka puggala. But if dvihetuka puggalas try enough they will be equipped with the necessary base for arising of jhaana or magga or phala in next lives but not in this current life. The cittas that can arise in these dvihetuka puthujana puggala are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 15 ahetuka vipaaka cittas ( 7 akusala origin and 8 kusala origin) c) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (panca and mano dvara-avajjana cittas) d) 8 mahakusala cittas e) 4 mahavipaka cittas (4 mahavipaaka with naana do not arise) ---- 41 cittas Other cittas cannot arise in these dvihetuka puthujana puggala. If arise then the thaana or place where that citta arise is no more dvihetuka puthujana puggala. Again these individuals are nothing but just a combination of namakkhandhas and rupakkhandha. There is no self, no man, no woman, no human being, no deva that exist as ultimate realities. When everything is investigated to ultimate level there are just citta or cetasika or ruupa or nibbana. Nothing more than that. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Any adding, any correction, any support will be very valuable. 47826 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:43am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 03 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 15 contemplations are on breathing matters. There are another set of 15 contemplations on body and they are on bodily postures. This contemplation on posture is just for description and what actually perceiving is ruupas that arise from these conventionally speaking postures. So it is not that right to contemplate 'I am walking' 'I am standing' 'I am sitting' ' I am lying flat'. What have to be contemplated are ruupas that arise when walking, when standing, when sitting, and when lying flat. If there is enough concentration then ruupas that arise in our physical body can clearly be seen with our mind-eye or we can clearly perceive those ruupas that arise when we are 'walking' 'standing' 'sitting' and 'lying down'. These 4 postures are major postures and they are like 4 horses that draw the cart. From our first consciousness in a day to the last in that day there we will have been in these 4 different postures. The first 15 contemplations are all related to breathing apparatus of our physical body. The contemplations do not go for others but at body that is physical body of ours. When we breathe there arise ruupas and those ruupas are contemplated. As breathing is universal it is described first. As soon as wake up, breathing should be the first place to contemplate before we do any other activities. From the 1st consciousness to the last consciousness just before go into sleep there are many acitvities of breathing. It is totally impossible to note all breathing related matters. So 4 postures are then described. There are 15 contemplations on postures. 1. contemplation on walking (going) 2. contemplation on standing 3. contemplation on sitting 4. contemplation on lying down When contemplate on walking there will be different ruupas that arise at physical body and they are contemplated as they arise. Likewise there are ruupas that arise when standing, sitting, and lying. Another 4 contemplations are 1. contemplation on others' walking 2. contemplation on others' standing 3. contemplation on others' sitting 4. contemplation on others' lying down. The practitioner perceives that there would be ruupas arising when other individuals are walking, standing, sitting, and lying down. The third set of 4 contemplations is contemplation on both internal (self) and external (others)activities where ruupas would arise and pass away. So there are 12 contemplations on body posture. There are 3 contemplation on implications of posture. They are 1. contemplation on origination of posture 2. contemplation on dissolution of posture 3. contemplation on both origination and dissolution Just before setting a posture which has not arisen there always is a naama and this is wish to move into that posture. Because of this there arise consciousness-born ruupas along the movements that generate into a new posture. These are the origination. The practitioner sometimes perceives that when these originating things are not there or they pass away then there is dissolution. Sometimes both origination and dissolution are perceived that so and so posture happen in relation with these origination and dissolution. This is just a description. Real practitioner will know these while intelligent readers will never perceive these without actual contemplations when they are in real-sensed activities in their daily life. So there are 15 contemplations on breathing and 15 contemplations on body posture. So far there have been discussed 30 contemplations on body. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47827 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, > > I found it!! Sorry - gave you all a wrong steer - I've found what > I was looking for in the Majjhima Nikaya 115.15 The Many Kinds of > Elements: > > "He understands: 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman > could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is no > such possibility.' [1090] And he understands: 'It is possible > that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - > there is such a possibility'. He understands 'It is impossible, it > cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... that > a woman could occupy the position of Sakka ... that a woman could > occupy the position of Maara ... that a woman could occupy the > position of Brahmaa - there is no such possibility.' And he > understands: 'It is possible that a man might be a Wheel-turning > Monarch ... that a man might occupy the position of Sakka ... that a > man might occupy the position of Maara ... that a man might occupy > the position of Brahmaa - there is such a possibility.' > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation note: 1090 - This statement asserts only > that a Fully Enlightened Buddha always has the male sex, but does > not deny that a person who is now a woman may become a Fully > Enlightened Buddha in the future. To do so, however, at an earlier > point she will have had to be reborn as a man. > > metta and peace, > Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, A good research. So there are 5 positions that itthiya cannot take. Itthiyo = one female being Itthiya = 2 or more female beings devii are itthiya but devii are not women. :-) These 5 positions are 1. Sammasambuddha (Fully Self-Enlightened One ) 2. Cakkavatta Raaja ( Wheel-turning Monarch ) 3. Sakka Raaja ( King of Taavatimsaa ) 4. Maara Raaja ( King of Maara ) 5. Brahmaa ( King of beings ) Before the start of the journey to achievement at these positions, beings have to be puurisa or male beings. Before that point they may be male or female or neither-male-nor-female beings. The first four beings or individuals are clearly male. Because all of these 4 positions are in the sensuous planes. But the last position Brahmaa are not beings in sensuous planes. So it is hard to tell whether they are male or female. To be exact they do not possess any sex characters. Form-wise they are in the form of male beings in human realm or deva realms. Brahmaas are very pure. They are free of sex. Human beings are almost always involved in sex. One a being cling to sex then he or she is bound to be reborn in sensuous plane and they will not be reborn in brahmaa realms. Those female beings who want to become a male being can fulfil the perfections to become a male being. Once I met a man. He had been a female being in his previous life. After that female life he was reborn in this world as a male being. He was a genuine male being. But he had some characters that normally have in female beings. He did not always say he had been a female being in his past life. But on some occasions when he talked to Venerable monks he unintentionally told that he has been a female being. He fulfiled all his life keeping the 3rd precept very very purely. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47828 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: Q. Breathing Treatise - Section iv, 200 - 201./Sati htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > Thank you for your reply to my question about sati. > > Htoo: > > PS: The object of karuna (citta with karuna cetasika) is beings in > > poor conditions. > > Tep : > Developing compassion(karuna) is a valuable way to subdue hatred > for any person-- poor or rich, young or old, needing help or not needing > help. > > "When you give birth to hatred for an individual, you should develop > compassion for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual > should be subdued." [AN V.161] > > Tep: But there are also great benefits beyond subduing hatred! > > "These four -- love, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity -- are > also known as the boundless states (appamañña), because, in their > perfection and their true nature, they should not be narrowed by any > limitation as to the range of beings towards whom they are extended. > They should be non-exclusive and impartial, not bound by selective > preferences or prejudices. A mind that has attained to that > boundlessness of the Brahma-viharas will not harbor any national, > racial, religious or class hatred. ["The Four Sublime States > Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and > Equanimity" by Nyanaponika Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 6] > > Tep: And here is how to pervade karuna to all beings : > > "Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart > filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth > direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire > world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, > abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from > distress." [DN 13] With Karuna, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Thanks for your preaching on Karunaa Dhamma. 'Poor' that I used is for 'lack of something'. It is not for 'rich versus poor' of wealth. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Metta and Upekkha are more general and they arise with each and every beautiful consciousness whereas 'kuruna' and 'mudita' have limitation. Karuna and mudita do not arise with each and every beautiful consciousness. 47829 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... christine_fo... Dear Htoo, Thank you for your additional comments and information. I, personally, have not yet met anyone who says they remember a past life - though I have heard about several. Very interesting. with metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I found it!! Sorry - gave you all a wrong steer - I've found > what > > I was looking for in the Majjhima Nikaya 115.15 The Many Kinds of > > Elements: > > > > "He understands: 'It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman > > could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - there is no > > such possibility.' [1090] And he understands: 'It is possible > > that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One - > > there is such a possibility'. He understands 'It is impossible, it > > cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch ... > that > > a woman could occupy the position of Sakka ... that a woman could > > occupy the position of Maara ... that a woman could occupy the > > position of Brahmaa - there is no such possibility.' And he > > understands: 'It is possible that a man might be a Wheel- turning > > Monarch ... that a man might occupy the position of Sakka ... that > a > > man might occupy the position of Maara ... that a man might occupy > > the position of Brahmaa - there is such a possibility.' > > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation note: 1090 - This statement asserts > only > > that a Fully Enlightened Buddha always has the male sex, but does > > not deny that a person who is now a woman may become a Fully > > Enlightened Buddha in the future. To do so, however, at an earlier > > point she will have had to be reborn as a man. > > > > metta and peace, > > Chris > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Dear Christine, > > A good research. So there are 5 positions that itthiya cannot take. > > Itthiyo = one female being > Itthiya = 2 or more female beings > > devii are itthiya but devii are not women. :-) > > These 5 positions are > > 1. Sammasambuddha (Fully Self-Enlightened One ) > 2. Cakkavatta Raaja ( Wheel-turning Monarch ) > 3. Sakka Raaja ( King of Taavatimsaa ) > 4. Maara Raaja ( King of Maara ) > 5. Brahmaa ( King of beings ) > > Before the start of the journey to achievement at these positions, > beings have to be puurisa or male beings. Before that point they > may be male or female or neither-male-nor-female beings. > > The first four beings or individuals are clearly male. Because all of > these 4 positions are in the sensuous planes. > > But the last position Brahmaa are not beings in sensuous planes. > > So it is hard to tell whether they are male or female. To be exact > they do not possess any sex characters. Form-wise they are in the > form of male beings in human realm or deva realms. > > Brahmaas are very pure. They are free of sex. > > Human beings are almost always involved in sex. One a being cling to > sex then he or she is bound to be reborn in sensuous plane and they > will not be reborn in brahmaa realms. > > Those female beings who want to become a male being can fulfil the > perfections to become a male being. > > Once I met a man. He had been a female being in his previous life. > After that female life he was reborn in this world as a male being. > > He was a genuine male being. But he had some characters that normally > have in female beings. He did not always say he had been a female > being in his past life. > > But on some occasions when he talked to Venerable monks he > unintentionally told that he has been a female being. > > He fulfiled all his life keeping the 3rd precept very very purely. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 47830 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion sarahprocter... Hi Larry (Tep, Howard & all), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: > the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". > > Hi Sarah, > > I prefer the description consciousness is a reflection of an object as > experience; in Howard's lingo "presencing". .... S: I think that to really understand the distinction between nama and rupa, we have to understand that nama is the dhamma which can experience an object, whereas rupa cannot experience anything. Seeing is not just the ‘presencing’ or reflection of visible object. It is the experiencing of visible object. ... >However, this only applies > to 5-door consciousness or a wisdom consciousness. In no way does a > consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness rooted in > greed is the experience of greed, not some object. I believe that is > standard satipatthana. ... S: Not as I understand it:). As the sutta Tep aptly quoted (DN22)indicated, craving or greed arises when there is an attractive and alluring object of any kind perceived. So there can be greed about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or thought about. Or there can be greed about the experiencing of those objects or to previous attachment and pleasant feeling about them. It’s really important to distinguish the difference between namas and rupas and between objects which are experienced and the cittas and cetasikas which experience, I believe. .... > As for the object of greed, a careful reading of the 'craving' section > on dependent origination in Vism. (Vism.XII,233 fol.) shows that craving > does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as > decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. .... S: XV11, 233f --This conveniently starts off with an emphasis on the point Tep and I were making, I think: “..Six kinds of craving are shown in the analysis of this clause [in the Vibhanga] as ‘visible-data craving, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, and mental-data craving (Vbg1360,called after their objects, as a son is called after his father ‘banker’s son’, ‘brahman’s son’...... When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called craving for sense desires....’ So there has to be an object, but the feeling is what we mind so much about, on account of what is experienced: ‘A man in pain for pleasure longs And finding pleasure, longs for more..’ Also, without natural decisive support condition, no craving: ‘Though feeling is condition, still Without inherent tendency No craving can arise.....’ There are always many conditioning factors at work, Larry. ‘Nor from a single cause arise One fruit or many, nor one fruit from many; ‘Tis helpful, though, to utilize One cause and fruit as representative.’ (Sammohavinodani, Classification of the Structure of Conditions). .... S: From U Narada’s ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’, an introduction of the Patthana: Under object condition: ‘The Conditioning States. These are the six kinds of objects: 1)visible object, 2) sound, 3)odour, 4)taste, 5)tangible object consisting of hardness, heat and motion, 6)cognizable object consisting of the remaining 21 states of materiality, 89 consciousnesses, 52 mental factors, Nibbana and concept.... ‘So, in this object condition there is no state that cannot be an object of consciousness and mental factors. This object condition pervades the teaching in the Pali canon.... ‘The Conditioned States. These are consciousness and mental factors. Cosnciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise without them. Even during sleep, the life-continuum takes the object which was taken in the dying process of the previous existence.....’ ‘Materiality is never a conditioned state of object condition because it cannot take and know objects......They are simply material states. That is why it is expounded in Dhs that ‘All matter (form) is that which is void of taking objects (ideas).’ ‘ .... >It is my contention > that feeling is combined with visible object as the so-called object of > desire. .... S: There cannot be desire for visible object and feeling at the same time. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas (which always includes feeling as you know), can only ever have one object – a nama, a rupa or a concept. .... >We can say dependent on contact feeling arises and dependent on > feeling, craving; but what I am trying to get at is what we "think of" > as the object of desire, what we say we want or like, is a > conceptualization of the formation of visible object, feeling, latent > tendency and probably many other factors as well. ... S: I think there is some confusion here. Yes, I agree that commonly it is an idea about visible object that we crave for example. It’s also very commonly the pleasant feeling or idea of pleasant feeling associated with some experience. We cling so much to our feelings. The latent tendencies and decisive support condition lead to such clinging occurring. Other factors such as contact and perception are very important too. If there were no marking of the objects, no such craving would occur. Remember that such mental factors accompany the consciousness which experiences the object such as visible object, concept about it or recalled pleasant feeling. ... > It is good to know > that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is > fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like arises > conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes > something is logic, not reality. ... S: Whether it is a reality or a concept, every citta experiences ‘something’. Citta cannot arise to perform its function without arammanupaccaya. Even jhana cittas experience an object (usually a concept) and lokuttara cittas experience nibbana. Like always likes something, even if it’s just as figment of one’s imagination:). Larry, I hope others like Tep, Howard or anyone else, will continue this discussion with you. It won’t surprise me at all if it’s still ‘alive’ when I return. I think there are several important points to clarify here .I’ll look forward to reading any further discussions. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, thank you for your comments on this thread too. There is some difference, but I think the important point which we both agree on is that when there’s awareness, it’s aware of seeing, for example, which has the characteristic of ‘experiencing’ v.o. or of v.o itself, for example, which has the characteristic of just that which is seen at that instant. I don’t personally have any difficulty with the expression ‘ consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious: the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object’, but I appreciate and understand why you do. I’m glad the extra commentary notes helped. Seeing and v.o. are both dhammas with their own particular characteristics, functions, proximate causes and so on as I know you know. Yes, I also think the expression about ‘licking honey from a razor’s edge’ is perfect to describe grasping. If I had time, I’d quote a longer one from Sammohavinodani on this – maybe someone else will. ========================= 47831 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:32am Subject: Re: Looking for Sutta about five things a woman cannot be ... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Dear Htoo, Thank you for your additional comments and information. I, personally, have not yet met anyone who says they remember a past life - though I have heard about several. Very interesting. with metta, Christine -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, There are many people who remember a few past lives in Myanmar. At least these strange people remember their immediate past life. Some remember 2 or 3 past lives. I have personally met at least 3 people. They were just ordinary people and they were not cheating to anyone. One of them was a man. He used to talk that he had been so and so person. When he grew up enough to wander around the country he went there where he had been a human being. He met his past-life's wife who was then in the age of his grandmother. Another one is a woman. She remembers that she had been a man. She has a birth mark of ugly dimple like scar on one of her thighs. She did not remember when she was young. But once she arrived at a place where a soldier was killed with a spear. That soldier was her and she was reborn in her current life. She just suddenly remember that she was a soldier and killed with a spear at his thigh. There was also a man. He was a rich man. He almost always behaved like a woman when he spoke. I mean behaviour. But his behaviour is totally different from gay's behaviour. He was a genuine male. But there were some female characters. He had been a woman in his past life and wished to become a male being. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47832 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:08pm Subject: The Noble 8-Fold Way ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is this Supreme Noble Eightfold Way ? These eight things, friends, when developed and cultivated lead to Nibbana, have Nibbana as their ultimate destination, have Nibbana as their final goal! What eight? Right View Right Motivation Right Speech Right Action Right Livelihood Right Effort Right Awareness Right Concentration Friends, true knowledge is initiating all advantageous states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing coming after! For a clever person, who has arrived at such true knowledge, right view emerges. For one of right view, right motivation improves. For one of right motivation, right speech evolves. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood comes into being. For one of right livelihood, right effort arises. For one of right effort, right awareness appears. For one of right awareness & mindfulness, right concentration develops & gradually achieves perfection! Friends, this is the sign and precursor for arising of the sun: dawn! So too, friends, for a person, this is the sign and precursor for the arising of the Noble 8-fold Way, that is, Good & Noble Friendship...!!! When a person has a Good Noble Friend, it is to be expected that he will develop, cultivate and complete this sublime Noble 8-fold Way... And how does a person, who has a good friend develop & cultivate this Noble 8-fold Way? Here, friends, a person develops right view, right motivation, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness, and right concentration, which has as their final goal the complete elimination of greed, the eradication of hate, and the luminous ceasing of all ignorance... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha on the Way. SN V (56) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html#Magga _________________________________________________________ PS: Please include the word Samahita in any request, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm Free Bliss !!! <...> 47833 From: "balancing_life" Date: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) balancing_life --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" wrote: --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman wrote: Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.9 : DOCTRINE OF REBIRTH (1) Unsatisfied desire for existence and sensual pleasures is the cause of rebirth. Kamma necessarily leads to rebirth. Past Kamma conditions the present birth, and present Kamma, in combination with past Kamma, the future. The present is the offspring of the past, and becomes, in its turn, the parent of the future. The present needs no proof. The past is based on memory and reports, and the future on forethought and inferences. REBIRTH - THE LIVING PROOF The doctrine of rebirth forms a fundamental principle in Buddhism. However the belief in rebirth is not confined to Buddhism; it also found in other countries, in other religions and even among the teaching of some great philosophers and contemplatives. The greatest authority on rebirth is the Buddha. "With clairvoyant vision, purified and supernormal, I perceived beings disappearing from one state of existence and re-appearing in another. I beheld the base and the noble, the beautiful and the ugly, the happy and the miserable, passing according to their deeds." There was no reason for the Buddha to tell an untruth to deceive His followers. Following His instructions His disciples also developed this retro- cognitive knowledge and were able to read their past lives to a great extent. The development of this supernormal vision is not restricted only to the Buddha and His disciples. Any person, whether Buddhist or not, could possess this faculty. Some Indian Rishis, even before the advent of the Buddha, developed such powers as clairaudience, clairvoyance, thought reading, and so forth. Pythagoras and Plato could remember their previous birth. There are also some persons who, according to the laws of association, spontaneously develop the memory of their past birth and remember fragments of theirprevious lives. A few well-attested cases are reported from Burma, India, Germany, England, etc. In hypnotic states some can relate experiences of their past lives; while a few others, like Edgar Casey of America, were able not only to read the past lives of others but also to heal diseases. In this world there arise Perfect Ones like the Buddhas, highly developed personalities. Could they evolve suddenly? Could they be the products of a single existence? How are we to account for colossal characters like Confucius, Pamini, Homer and Plato, men of genius like Kalidasa, Shakespeare, infant prodigies like Ramanujan, Pascal, Mozart, Beethoven, Raphael, and others, and little children conversant with different languages and certain subjects which they had never learnt in their present life?' Heredity alone cannot account for them, "else their ancestry would disclose it, their posterity, even greater than themselves, demonstrate it." Could they arise to such lofty heights if they had not lived such noble lives and gained similar experiences in the past? Is it by mere chance that they are born of those particular parents and placed under those favourable circumstances? The theory of heredity should be supplemented by the doctrine of Kamma and rebirth for an adequate explanation of these puzzling problems. Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life is the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? If one believes in the present and in future, it is quite logical to believe in the past. It is possible but not easy for us to actually verify our past lives. The nature of our mind is such that is does not allow most people the recollection of their previous lives. Our minds are overpowered by the five hindrances: sensual desire, ill will, sloth, restlessness and doubt. Thus our vision is earth-bound and we cannot visualize rebirth. Just as a mirror does not reflect an image when it is covered with dirt and we cannot see the star during the daytime, it does not mean they are not there, but because they are outshone by the sunlight. THE CAUSE OF REBIRTH In short, Kamma, which is rooted in Ignorance, is the cause of birth and death. As long as this Kammic force survives there is rebirth. This process of becoming is fully explained in the Paticca Samuppada - Dependent Arising or Dependent Origination. It should be understood that Paticca Samuppada is only a discourse on Samsara or the process of birth and death and not a theory of the evolution of the world from primordial matter. It deals with the cause of rebirth and suffering, but it does not attempt to show the absolute origin of life. Ignorance - Avijja, of the Four Noble Truths is the first link or cause of the wheel of life. It clouds all right understanding. Dependent on Ignorance arise volitional activities (Sankhara). Moral and immoral activities, whether good or bad, which are rooted in ignorance, tend to prolong wandering in Samsara. Nevertheless, good actions are essential to get rid of the ills of this ocean of life. Dependent on Volitional Activities arises Re-linking Consciousness - Vinnana. This links the past with the present. Simultaneous with the arising of Re-linking Consciousness there come into being Mind and Matter - Nama and Rupa. The Six Senses - Salayatana, are the inevitable consequences of Mind and Matter. Because of the Six Senses Contact - Phassa sets in. Contact leads to Sensations - vedana. Dependent on Sensations arises Craving - Tanha. Craving produces Attachment - Upadana. Attachment conditions Kamma-Bhava, which in its turn determines future Birth - Jati. Old Age and Death - Jara - Marana are the inevitable consequences of birth. If, on account of a cause, an effect comes to be, then if the cause ceases, the effect also must cease. The complete cessation of Ignorance leads to the cessation of birth and death. The above process of cause and effect continues ad infinitum. The beginning of this process cannot be determined, as it is impossible to say whence this life-flux was encompassed by ignorance. But when this ignorance is turned into knowledge and the life-flux is transmuted to Nibbana Dhatu, then the end of the life process or Samsara comes about. MODES OF BIRTH AND DEATH Buddhism assesses death to the following four causes:- 1. The exhaustion of the force of Reproductive Kamma that gives rise to the birth - Kammakkhaya. As a rule, the thought, volition, or desire, which is extremely strong during lifetime, becomes predominant at the point of death and conditions the subsequent birth. In this last thought-moment is present a special potentiality. When the potential energy of this Reproductive Kamma is exhausted, the corporealised, the life force, cease even before the approach of old age. 2. The expiration of the life-term - Ayukkhaya. What are commonly understood to be natural deaths due to old age may be classed under this category. There are various planes of existence according to Buddhism, and to each plane is naturally assigned a definite age-limit. Irrespective of the Kammic force that has yet to run, one must, however,succumb to death when the maximum age-limit is reached. It may also be said that if the force is extremely powerful, the Kammic energy re-materialises itself on the same plane or in some higher realm as in the case of the Devas. 3. The simultaneous exhaustion of the Reproductive Kammic energy and the expiration of the life-term - Ubhayakkhaya. 4. The action of a stronger Kamma - Upacechdaka that suddenly cuts off the power of the Reproductive Kamma before the expiry of the life-term. The first three types of deaths are collectively called Kalamarana (timely death) and the last one is known as Akalamarana (untimely death). An oil lamp, for instance, may get extinguished owing to any of the following four causes:- the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of oil, simultaneous exhaustion of both wick and oil, and some extraneous cause like a gust of wind. The death of a person may similarly be caused by the above-mentioned four ways. Questions 1. What is the cause of Rebirth? 2. What are the causes of Death? Answers (Module 2.8) 1. Can we change our kamma? Yes, if one apply effort to overcome the evil results of kamma with positive energy. eg. An unfavourable situation (such as a harsh speech) arises and a normal reaction is the rising of anger. But with some effort not to let the anger turn into further evil action, one basically changed the creation of a potential evil kamma. But once an evil kamma has been created, such as the anger that has arises, one basically cannot change the result of that kamma unless there is a Counteractive Kamma which suppresses or modifies the result of the reproductive Kamma, or a stronger Destructive Kamma, which may substitutes with its own resultants. 2. What other lessons that we can learned from the Law of Kamma? a. Deed or Action. Kamma is measured by our deeds - it is a performance based and not position. One must work to earn what is favourable and not depend on fate or external assistance. Buddhism is a religion to live and not to believe. b. Fear only our action. The most harmful things that can happen unto us are our own (bad) action since others kamma cannot harm us unless we let it happen. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com --- End forwarded message --- --- End forwarded message --- 47834 From: "agriosinski" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: flashes of something agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi RobertK and (Agrios), > > Sorry to be talking about you in your absence, Agrios :-) Hi Herman, don't worry, I am here :-) It boils to the question for me if mental sankharas are kamma triggered. In other words, if there is cetana involved. Old or new. I can't say at this point of practice. I can't say there are sankharas, as I only am aware of triggered by them vinnanas. I can speculate, that idea of Self having this experience is developing and it actualizes itself at point of vinnana. metta, Agrios. 47835 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: objects of desire and aversion /Sarah's Good Preaching buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah {and Larry} - I like your summary on tanha (craving) and conditioning states a lot. We should reflect on this subject often. Sarah's Summary : Craving ----------- # Craving or greed arises when there is an attractive andalluring object of any kind perceived. # So there can be greed about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or thought about. Or there can be greed about the experiencing of those objects or to previous attachment and pleasant feeling about them. # Craving does not arise dependent on object condition, but only with feeling as decisive-support condition, plus latent tendency. Object Conditions and Conditioned States -------------------------------------------------------------- # `The Conditioning States. These are the six kinds of objects: 1)visible object, 2) sound, 3)odour, 4)taste, 5)tangible object consisting of hardness, heat and motion, 6)cognizable object consisting of the remaining 21 states of materiality, 89 consciousnesses, 52 mental factors, Nibbana and concept.... # `The Conditioned States. These are consciousness and mental factors. Consciousness takes and knows objects and cannot arise without them. Even during sleep, the life-continuum takes the object which was taken in the dying process of the previous existence.....' Tep: Htoo would say that Sarah had done a good preaching. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Larry (Tep, Howard & all), (snipped) > > Yes, I also think the expression about `licking honey from a razor's edge' > is perfect to describe grasping. If I had time, I'd quote a longer one > from Sammohavinodani on this – maybe someone else will. > ========================= 47836 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: 60 audio talks on suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi philofillet Hi Christine Thanks for this. I'd much rather listen than read these days, for some reason. Last night I listened to B.Bodhi's talk on the sutta on the removal of distracting thoughts, mn 20, that Nina wrote on. I thought it was quite charming and really helpful the way he kind of giggles at the notion of being attracted to hair, teeth, nails etc as though it were the silliest thing in the world, which it is when you get down to it. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > Here is a link to approximately 60 digital audio talks (windows media > player required) by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya. 47837 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 buddhistmedi... Hi, Nina - If you are inclined to send an email to Han Tun, this is his email address: hantun1@.... Below is his reply to your email. Warm regards, Tep ======== Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 18:12:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "han tun" View Contact Details Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing Treatise / Han Tun's Contribution 203 - 205 To: "Tep Sastri" Thank you very much to you and Nina. Han Tun ------------------------------------ --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Han - > > I am forwarding Nina's reply to your comment below. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ======== > --- End forwarded message --- > ------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 17-07-2005 14:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > [Han: "kla" in niklesa is a conjunct consonant like "kkha" in bhikkhu. It is > > a very rare conjunct consonant and I cannot find the word niklesa in the > > dictionaries.] > N: ni+ noun means: without (PED at end of ni prefix). > Kilesa or klesa: defilement, in PED. > NIna. 47838 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: Fwd: Basic Paper 2.9 Rebirth (1) htootintnaing Dear Balancing Life, Could you please clarify these matters? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "balancing_life" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In HeartBodyMindSoul@yahoogroups.com, "Asian Woman" > wrote: > --- In HeartMindBodySoul@yahoogroups.com, Asian Woman > wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Paper 2 _____ MODULE 2.9 : DOCTRINE OF REBIRTH (1) Unsatisfied desire for existence and sensual pleasures is the cause of rebirth. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is unsatisfied desire here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kamma necessarily leads to rebirth. Past Kamma conditions the present birth, and present Kamma, in combination with past Kamma, the future. The present is the offspring of the past, and becomes, in its turn, the parent of the future. The present needs no proof. The past is based on memory and reports, and the future on forethought and inferences. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are fine and agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- REBIRTH - THE LIVING PROOF The doctrine of rebirth forms a fundamental principle in Buddhism. However the belief in rebirth is not confined to Buddhism; it also found in other countries, in other religions and even among the teaching of some great philosophers and contemplatives. The greatest authority on rebirth is the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually it is 'patisandhii' rahter than rebirth. Pati means 'again' and 'sandhii' means linking. So it is 'relinking' rather than rebirth. But rebirth is generally accepted by Buddhists who speak English. However there needs understanding. Birth, rebirth, rebirth and so on may make the idea that there is a soul and it is reborn with a body as birth. But this is not the case. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "With clairvoyant vision, purified and supernormal, I perceived beings disappearing from one state of existence and re-appearing in another. I beheld the base and the noble, the beautiful and the ugly, the happy and the miserable, passing according to their deeds." There was no reason for the Buddha to tell an untruth to deceive His followers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is one of the powers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Following His instructions His disciples also developed this retro- cognitive knowledge and were able to read their past lives to a great extent. The development of this supernormal vision is not restricted only to the Buddha and His disciples. Any person, whether Buddhist or not, could possess this faculty. Some Indian Rishis, even before the advent of the Buddha, developed such powers as clairaudience, clairvoyance, thought reading, and so forth. Pythagoras and Plato could remember their previous birth. There are also some persons who, according to the laws of association, spontaneously develop the memory of their past birth and remember fragments of theirprevious lives. A few well-attested cases are reported from Burma, India, Germany, England, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It is called 'jaatissara naana' or 'knowledge of rebirths'. This knowledge is not a power unlike those of jhaanalaabhii who have pubbenivaasa naana or 'the power of recollection of past lives'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In hypnotic states some can relate experiences of their past lives; while a few others, like Edgar Casey of America, were able not only to read the past lives of others but also to heal diseases. In this world there arise Perfect Ones like the Buddhas, highly developed personalities. Could they evolve suddenly? Could they be the products of a single existence? How are we to account for colossal characters like Confucius, Pamini, Homer and Plato, men of genius like Kalidasa, Shakespeare, infant prodigies like Ramanujan, Pascal, Mozart, Beethoven, Raphael, and others, and little children conversant with different languages and certain subjects which they had never learnt in their present life?' Heredity alone cannot account for them, "else their ancestry would disclose it, their posterity, even greater than themselves, demonstrate it." Could they arise to such lofty heights if they had not lived such noble lives and gained similar experiences in the past? Is it by mere chance that they are born of those particular parents and placed under those favourable circumstances? The theory of heredity should be supplemented by the doctrine of Kamma and rebirth for an adequate explanation of these puzzling problems. Is it reasonable to believe that the present brief span of life is the only existence between two eternities of heaven and hell? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Buddhists need not to be told this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If one believes in the present and in future, it is quite logical to believe in the past. It is possible but not easy for us to actually verify our past lives. The nature of our mind is such that is does not allow most people the recollection of their previous lives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you remember what was your lunch 1000 days ago? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Our minds are overpowered by the five hindrances: sensual desire, ill will, sloth, restlessness and doubt. Thus our vision is earth-bound and we cannot visualize rebirth. Just as a mirror does not reflect an image when it is covered with dirt and we cannot see the star during the daytime, it does not mean they are not there, but because they are outshone by the sunlight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree this. When the mirror is clear then there is a clear reflections. When the mirror of mind is very clear there do have shades in that mirror and they can clearly be seen. Just try it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- THE CAUSE OF REBIRTH In short, Kamma, which is rooted in Ignorance, is the cause of birth and death. As long as this Kammic force survives there is rebirth. This process of becoming is fully explained in the Paticca Samuppada - Dependent Arising or Dependent Origination. It should be understood that Paticca Samuppada is only a discourse on Samsara or the process of birth and death and not a theory of the evolution of the world from primordial matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But people misused it. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It deals with the cause of rebirth and suffering, but it does not attempt to show the absolute origin of life. Ignorance - Avijja, of the Four Noble Truths is the first link or cause of the wheel of life. It clouds all right understanding. Dependent on Ignorance arise volitional activities (Sankhara). Moral and immoral activities, whether good or bad, which are rooted in ignorance, tend to prolong wandering in Samsara. Nevertheless, good actions are essential to get rid of the ills of this ocean of life. Dependent on Volitional Activities arises Re-linking Consciousness - Vinnana. This links the past with the present. Simultaneous with the arising of Re-linking Consciousness there come into being Mind and Matter - Nama and Rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like 'simultaneous' here whatever it is right or wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Six Senses - Salayatana, are the inevitable consequences of Mind and Matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But not simultaneous at birth. At birth there is just only 2 ayatana among salayatana or 6 ayatana. They are kaayaayatana and manaayatana or body-sense-base and mind-sense-base. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Because of the Six Senses Contact - Phassa sets in. Contact leads to Sensations - vedana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine if vedana is translated as sensation. But not that right. Because sensations are more than vedana and vedana is more than sensation. Example is that agressiveness is not a sensation but vedana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dependent on Sensations arises Craving - Tanha. Craving produces Attachment - Upadana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Wording is important. Upadana is usually translated as 'clinging'. It is grasping. It has the character of firm gripping unlike just attachment. On the other hand attachment is used for lobha cetasika. Not for upadaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment conditions Kamma-Bhava, which in its turn determines future Birth - Jati. Old Age and Death - Jara - Marana are the inevitable consequences of birth. If, on account of a cause, an effect comes to be, then if the cause ceases, the effect also must cease. The complete cessation of Ignorance leads to the cessation of birth and death. The above process of cause and effect continues ad infinitum. The beginning of this process cannot be determined, as it is impossible to say whence this life-flux was encompassed by ignorance. But when this ignorance is turned into knowledge and the life-flux is transmuted to Nibbana Dhatu, then the end of the life process or Samsara comes about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Saadhu Saadhu Saadhu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MODES OF BIRTH AND DEATH Buddhism assesses death to the following four causes:- 1. The exhaustion of the force of Reproductive Kamma that gives rise to the birth - Kammakkhaya. As a rule, the thought, volition, or desire, which is extremely strong during lifetime, becomes predominant at the point of death and conditions the subsequent birth. In this last thought-moment is present a special potentiality. When the potential energy of this Reproductive Kamma is exhausted, the corporealised, the life force, cease even before the approach of old age. 2. The expiration of the life-term - Ayukkhaya. What are commonly understood to be natural deaths due to old age may be classed under this category. There are various planes of existence according to Buddhism, and to each plane is naturally assigned a definite age-limit. Irrespective of the Kammic force that has yet to run, one must, however,succumb to death when the maximum age-limit is reached. It may also be said that if the force is extremely powerful, the Kammic energy re-materialises itself on the same plane or in some higher realm as in the case of the Devas. 3. The simultaneous exhaustion of the Reproductive Kammic energy and the expiration of the life-term - Ubhayakkhaya. 4. The action of a stronger Kamma - Upacechdaka that suddenly cuts off the power of the Reproductive Kamma before the expiry of the life-term. The first three types of deaths are collectively called Kalamarana (timely death) and the last one is known as Akalamarana (untimely death). An oil lamp, for instance, may get extinguished owing to any of the following four causes:- the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of oil, simultaneous exhaustion of both wick and oil, and some extraneous cause like a gust of wind. The death of a person may similarly be caused by the above-mentioned four ways. Questions 1. What is the cause of Rebirth? 2. What are the causes of Death? Answers (Module 2.8) 1. Can we change our kamma? Yes, if one apply effort to overcome the evil results of kamma with positive energy. eg. An unfavourable situation (such as a harsh speech) arises and a normal reaction is the rising of anger. But with some effort not to let the anger turn into further evil action, one basically changed the creation of a potential evil kamma. But once an evil kamma has been created, such as the anger that has arises, one basically cannot change the result of that kamma unless there is a Counteractive Kamma which suppresses or modifies the result of the reproductive Kamma, or a stronger Destructive Kamma, which may substitutes with its own resultants. 2. What other lessons that we can learned from the Law of Kamma? a. Deed or Action. Kamma is measured by our deeds - it is a performance based and not position. One must work to earn what is favourable and not depend on fate or external assistance. Buddhism is a religion to live and not to believe. b. Fear only our action. The most harmful things that can happen unto us are our own (bad) action since others kamma cannot harm us unless we let it happen. _____ Mahindarama e-Buddhist Education Center www.mahindarama.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hoping that Balancing Life is replying. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47839 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:13am Subject: 261 kaayaanupassanaa or 261 contemplations on body ( 04 ) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 261 'contemplations on body' or 261 kaayaanupassanaa. 15 contemplations are on breathing matters and 15 contemplations are on bodily postures. So far there have been explained on 30 contemplations among 261 contemplations. Breathing is a constant activity. So it is the best to concentrate on. After breathing 4 body postures are the best to concentrate on. Because at any given time one is in one of these 4 postures of 'walking/moving' 'standing' 'sitting' 'lying down'. Again any of these 4 postures cannot be a permanent posture and one has to change the posture frequently for health. So after 'breathing' and 'posture' the next thing that should be concentrated is 'changs in postures' or 'detail movements of body'. There are at least 20 detail movements of body in anyone who is a human being. So there are 20 contemplations on detail movement. 1. 20 contemplations on detail movements of own body (internally) 2. 20 contemplations on detail movements of others' body(externally) 3. 20 contemplations on detail movement of both intern. & extern. --- 60 contemplations on detail bodily movements There are 3 more extra contemplations on detail bodily movements. They are 1. 1 contemplation on origination of detail movement 2. 1 contemplation on dissolution of detail movement 3. 1 contemplation on both origination and dissolution of movements --- 3 extra contemplations on detail bodily movements. There are altogether 60 + 3 = 63 contemplations on detail bodily movements. What are the 20 detail movements? They will be explained in the coming post on kaayaanupassanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 47840 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashes of something ashkenn2k Hi Since developing is also not self, so what is there to control. If self can be control, as I said many times as seen in the sutta, there will no affliction. The part of development is not about a self trying to be better, or I wish to attain something by trying. Development or looking at a sutta is not abt daily routine for lay person, development comes as panna arise. The need to develop depends on chanda, however the right way depends on panna. If chanda is conditioned by a self trying to investigate a not self, no way panna will arise. If chanda is conditioned by panna to investiage a not self then panna will arise. Just like reading a sutta, if bc there is a need to tell onself, hey I have to keep reading a sutta everyday, or force oneself to read everyday even though one does not wish to, is a waste of time. reading a sutta out of habit or just bc a self thinks this is the right way to get rid of a not self will not develop panna. reading a sutta must be conditioned by panna then development will arise, it must arise naturally. Anatta is a tricky business :-). A person while enjoying an ice-cream, between lobha, there may arise panna bc in between of the lobha, he realise that lobha is not self, anicca and dukkha. regards Ong KC 47841 From: Ken O Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion ashkenn2k --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Larry (Tep, Howard & all), > --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > > Sarah: quoting (?): "Consciousness (citta) is that which is > conscious: > > the meaning is that it knows (vijaanati) an object". > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I prefer the description consciousness is a reflection of an > object as > > experience; in Howard's lingo "presencing". > .... > S: I think that to really understand the distinction between nama > and > rupa, we have to understand that nama is the dhamma which can > experience > an object, whereas rupa cannot experience anything. Seeing is not > just the > ‘presencing’ or reflection of visible object. It is the > experiencing of > visible object. > ... > >However, this only applies > > to 5-door consciousness or a wisdom consciousness. In no way does > a > > consciousness rooted in greed know an object. A consciousness > rooted in > > greed is the experience of greed, not some object. I believe that > is > > standard satipatthana. > ... k: If there is no object, how does greed arise in the first place, please remember that the six sense are before the greed arise, which means, the six senses must meet their respective objects before contact can arise, feelings can arise and craving can arise. > > It is good to know > > that what I _think_ I like or dislike is only a concept. It is > > fundamentally unrealistic to say like likes something. Like > arises > > conditioned by feeling conditioned by contact. To say like likes > > something is logic, not reality. k: Logic is different from reality. One person logic thinks that the world is flat during the early days is not reality. The five aggregates are reality and not logic. Ken O 47842 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/18/05 1:59:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@... writes: Hi Howard, This is such a great post !!!! I especially agree with the bit between "Hi all" and where you sign off :-) ------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) Thanks for the appreciative words! ------------------------------------------ There was another one recently, which I wanted to thank you for, but I just can't find it at the moment. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it might be msg # 47742, a reply to James, the content of which previewed the current post you're writing about. ------------------------------------------- Anyway, thank you. This is awesome indeed. Kind Regards Herman ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47843 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspective, Skillful Means, and Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/18/05 4:22:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Howard and all >> It seems to me that an argument could be made that the Buddha's > deconstruction of conventional entities into khandic elements was a skillful means to > help us overcome our deep-seated tendency to reify at the macroscopic level. > And he used relational analysis to disabuse us of reifying at the microscopic > level. Yes, well said. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Phil. :-) --------------------------------------- We learn to let go of clinging to people and things (reify at the macroscopic level) as understanding develops, and we see that the elemental components of experience, the khandas, the ayatanas, the dhatus (and any other ways the Buddha broke things down in order to help us develop understanding of anatta) are momentary and miniscule in both duration and import. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I take it even a bit further than this, emphasizing lack of identity as separate entities - a strong denial of atta-hood to all phenomena. --------------------------------------- I know you think that the Abhidhamma approach sets up cittas as small agents of knowing and I guess you see that as a kind of reification or deification or something, but looking at things in that way is just to help us to better understand anatta, not to set up cittas and cetasikas as little kings. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure of this being the Abhidhamma approach, but merely of it being a danger lurking in the Abhidhamma approach should it be misunderstood. The Patthana is probably the main book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and it is a medicine for the disease of reification. It is Ven Nyanaponika's perspective that Abhidhamma doesn't present dhammas as separate and independent entities. ------------------------------------- Those similes are not to be held on to. They are helpful to some people but are not at the core of the teaching. We come to see that elements are hardly anything to seek to hold on to or care about, so I don't think there is reification there. But I may have misunderstood you. ----------------------------------- Howard: I wasn't criticizing Abhidhamma, just a couple diametrically opposing points of view. ---------------------------------- Or do you see reification in the teaching that rare, momentary awareness of paramattha dhammas is of great import? Wouldn't that be reification of the mindfulness of paramattha dhammas rather than the paramattha dhammas themselves? ----------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. ---------------------------------- BTW, these days I am feeling that I will say "paramattha dhammas" or "Dhamma realities" or something like that rather than "realities." --------------------------------------- Howard: These days I'm feeling that the less I speak or think in terms of realities or entities the better. Better, I believe, to think in terms of An-atta, A-nicca, sankhata, and nissayata (dependence). Letting go cognitively is a correlate to affective relinquishment. -------------------------------------- I keep thinking these days that the Buddha was not a scientist and didn't seek to explain the workings of the world as a scientist does and that simply saying "realities" could mislead people into going about things with too much of a physiological/psychological bent. ------------------------------------ Howard: I suppose it depends on how much one invests in the word 'reality'. Trees are not nothing at all, nor are sights, sounds, and hardness. Nihilism is the opposite error of substantialism, and annihilationism of eternalism. The middle way is extraordinarily subtle, I think. It is so easy to fall off to either side. ----------------------------------- (Is that "phenomenolgical?" I've never gotten around to asking what that word means!) ----------------------------------- Howard: It just means "pertaining to experience (per se)". ---------------------------------- He discovered and explained a system of understanding the world for the purpose of liberation from suffering, so, personally speaking, I don't expect close phenomenological (?) investigation of what is going on physiologically through the sense doors to perfectly match the Buddha's teaching. He discovered and taught for the purpose of liberation, not scientific investigation. So, for example, I wouldn't ponder the import of cochlear implants as Herman does or did, because it seems to me that that is the realm of neurology or some other logy, not Dhamma. We take what the Buddha or those noble ariyan disciples who followed him closely (if one doubts the authorship of Abhidhamma) taught, and *believe* it, and patiently work towards understanding it. I guess you and many others say that we should never believe anything that we haven't confirmed phenomenologically, through our own experience, but I think that's a mistake. Believing has to come first. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Tentative belief awaiting direct experiential confirmation, when warranted (by earned confidence, for example), makes sense. Blind-faith belief does not. ------------------------------------------ This is a religion, after all. If we stick with blind faith, that would be silly - we gradually move towards confirming whatever aspects of Dhamma we can. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, I wrote too quickly! ;-) Yes, we agree. ----------------------------------------- But at first there cannot be much of this confirmation, I'd say. There must be so much patience. Sorry Howard, I rambled off topic there, as usual. I guess this is something I've wanted to say to you and others who stress the priority of experiencing things before believing them. You may be right. This is just how I'm thinking these days. --------------------------------------- Howard: The prudent course in matters of belief is down the middle, I believe. -------------------------------------- Metta, Phil p.s Herman, hi, back to your post in a few days. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47844 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking Meditation / Happy Conclusion? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Herman) - In a message dated 7/18/05 4:27:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: I shall be glad to hear what Jon might say about the inconsistency that Herman has discovered. ========================= Guys, I find myself thinking of tag-team wrestling! ;-) Isn't there a saying about consistency being the hobgoblin of little minds? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47845 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] objects of desire and aversion upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/18/05 5:49:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: I think that to really understand the distinction between nama and rupa, we have to understand that nama is the dhamma which can experience an object, whereas rupa cannot experience anything. Seeing is not just the ‘presencing’ or reflection of visible object. It is the experiencing of visible object. ======================== No problem in saying that seeing is the experiencing of visible object. But a big problem in saying that it is the *experiencer* of visible object, and that is what is being said when one says "nama is the dhamma which can experience an object" or when one says "consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious." These locutions are reifying terminology, making out of nama/consciousness an entity which acts - an agent, a lttle self. I know that is not the intention! But how we speak affects how we think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 47846 From: "mlnease" Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:42am Subject: Adresses etc. mlnease Dear Friends, I lost all my email and many addresses some time ago and am trying to reconnect now. Apologies for any unanswered messages, also please send mods' address to my new address, mlnease@.... Thanks in Advance, mike 47847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: body-consciousness and sati. nilovg Hi Larry, op 18-07-2005 01:31 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Nina: "Sati is aware of an object that appears through a doorway. Sati > always > has an object. In a process there is first body-consciousness > experiencing tangible object. After that there are kusala or akusala > javanacittas. The kusala javana cittas can be accompanied by sati which > is mindful of tangible object." L: When sati is experienced sati is the object. When body consciousness is > experienced there is only body consciousness. --------- N: Sati can be the object of sati and paññaa which arise in a following mind-door process. Paññaa can realize sati as only a type of naama, not self. Also body-consciousness can be the object of sati and paññaa. You use the word experienced, but should we not say: realized? But all this is very difficult before discerning the difference between nama and rupa. We know many dhammas by name, we know kusala and akusala by name, but they arise and fall away so fast, we should not try to see whether a dhamma is kusala or akusala. Nina. 47848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashes of something nilovg Dear Herman, By developing understanding we learn that dhammas are conditioned, non-self. If someone says: develop understanding, it may help someone else to see the benefit of it, to have more confidence. Confidence is an essential quality, I believe. That person may have listened in the past. We know that many conditions are necessary for being able to develop understanding. op 18-07-2005 09:01 schreef Egbert op hhofman@...: > You cannot have it both ways, I'm afraid. You cannot keep telling > everyone there is no control, yet suggest to Agrios that he develop > more understanding. > > Which one is it to be? > 47849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, op 18-07-2005 06:08 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...: > what if these flashes are mental sankharas. Is it possible? > Until now, I understood sankharas as some sort of "thinking > clusters" something forming... like thinking. But never actually > seen them "in action". > But if I understand sankharas as determinations, then everything > falls into right place, including avija-sankhara-vinnana > sequence! --------- Sankhaara has different meanings in different contexts. avija-sankhara-vinnana: Here sankhaara means: kusala kamma, akusala kamma and imperturbable kamma (the aruupa-jhaanas). The word abhisankhaara is also used here: abhi: strong, kamma as a strong condition. It conditions vinnana, here: rebirth-consciousness and vipaakacittas arising during life. You can find these meanings in Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka. Sankharakkhandha, the khandha of formations or activities are all cetasikas except feeling and saññaa. Sankhaara dhamma: all conditioned dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. Nina. 47850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashes of something nilovg Hi Agrios, op 18-07-2005 01:11 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@...:> > There is strong Self here wanting to stay on the subject > of "just observing" and not being pushed around :) > Lots of moha, lobha and dosa. > So akusala is right. > > Could you please explain why mind door is so different? > I would like to understand why five senses produce vipaka cittas > but sixth not. ------ N: Vipaakacittas such as seeing experience an object through a sensedoor, but the sense-doors do not produce vipaka, it is kamma that produces vipaka. There are also vipaakacittas that experience result through the mind-door, but these vipaakacittas are not the sense-cognitions such as seeing. -------- A: Nina, if I only can do something about it. > I am just observing whats going on. > Knowing about them being just flashes doesn't help. > I still think this is happening to me, so no panna here. > During practice, when there is no more thinking, > right in split second there is sudden flash - and my mind > is chasing shadows... again :) > Could this be restlessness I am observing? --------